Trafalgar Square, London, 21st August 2011
“It is time, Brothers and Sisters, for Al Quds to be liberated. For Islam and people of the world who wish to pray there to the one God. And we say here today to you Israel, we see your crimes and we loathe your crimes. And to us your nation does not exist, because it is a criminal injustice against humanity. We want to see Lebanon, Jordan and Egypt go to the borders and stop this now. Liberate Al Quds! March to Al Quds!”
These were the words spoken by Lauren Booth (Tony Blair’s half-sister-in-law) at the Al Quds Day terror rally organised by the Islamic Human Rights Commission in London’s Trafalgar Square yesterday. She had just pledged her support for Hamas. See clip:
And here are the words of another speaker:
“You can’t take an army, which is a nation’s army, a terrorist nation’s army, and defeat it with sincere small fighters. It needs some of those states around to release their armies to burn that land and then that region will see peace like it had in the past. Because the only time that land has seen peace between Muslim, Christian and Jew living side by side was when sincere Islamic rulers ruled with justice.”
Here’s the clip:
Al Quds Day was creatively subtitled “End the Siege, End the Occupation, End the Israeli Apartheid”, but for brevity they might just have subtitled it “End Israel”.
Placards, see below, were held up which read:
Israel Your Days are Numbered
Death to Israel
Down down Israel
For World Peace Israel Must Be Destroyed
The World Stopped Nazism, The World Must Stop Zionism
We Are All Hizbollah
Yellow Hezbollah flags were everywhere with the flag’s usual gun emblem, which is especially menacing considering that the head of Hizbollah has said that Jews are descended from pigs and apes and that if all the Jews in the world gathered in Israel it would save Hizbollah the trouble of going after them elsewhere.
I felt that the rhetoric and placards were nothing short of incitement to racial hatred and violence, not just against Israel and its citizens, but against the many Israeli tourists and residents in the UK as well as British Jews, and non-Jews, who wish to express support for Israel.
Had similar threats been made against Britain the police would have acted. They can still act as they were recording footage.
But there is no point filming and doing nothing. When will we start to see arrests for incitement?
More photos from yesterday:
Trafalgar Square, London, 21st August 2011
Trafalgar Square, London, 21st August 2011
Trafalgar Square, London, 21st August 2011
Trafalgar Square, London, 21st August 2011
Trafalgar Square, London, 21st August 2011
Trafalgar Square, London, 21st August 2011
Trafalgar Square, London, 21st August 2011
Trafalgar Square, London, 21st August 2011
Trafalgar Square, London, 21st August 2011
Trafalgar Square, London, 21st August 2011
Trafalgar Square, London, 21st August 2011
Trafalgar Square, London, 21st August 2011
Trafalgar Square, London, 21st August 2011
Trafalgar Square, London, 21st August 2011
RichardMillett's Blog 
Typical putrid garbage from this lot – They really are the Neo -Nazis of the 21st Century. I’m sure there must be some legislation against the statements you mentioned above. There must be a Jewish lawyer out there somewhere who can help?
Not neo-Nazis – just Nazis. Of course there is legislation. Just try saying the above publicly, but against the Religion of Pieces.
Is there a Jewish lawyer with balls in Britain, yes or no?
Embodiment of Evil
They get away with this bile becouse the use the ‘Z’ word instead of the ‘J’ word .
Trafalgar Square? Looks more like Tahrir Square.
I am stunned.
While 1 million Israelis are holed down in shelters as 100 rockets are launched into its southern cities, the police of the UK who are meant to maintain law and order allow this to carry on. One wonders how many of them were threatened with arrest as was Richard the other day?
Just look at the child abuse – many of them draped in gun touting flags are youngsters and one little girl surely no older than 5 carrying a banner threatening death!! Where is Save the Children with its patron our own Princess Anne? Where is Esther Rantzen with her Childline?
Does nobody understand what is meant by Islamic peace? This is the chaos that precedes the coming of the 12th Imam in a time when all the world will pray as one under Islam. Does nobody read the Koran and the history of this ideology that carries itself as a faux religion?
God help us when we are forced into Islamic slavery in the UK.
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To Michael: I feel it’s only a matter of time before a speaker at one of these events says Jew or Jewish. Abdel Bari Atwan, the editor of London-based al-Quds al-Arabi, already has:
I hope it happens more often. When you’re cleaning your house, it’s much easier to deal with detritus when it’s out in the open, not hiding in the corners.
SORRY! Wrong video. I meant this one:
I don’t think 1 million Israeli’s are holed down anywhere, except perhaps on their holidays in Greece.
I find it quite refreshing to hear calls for our total destruction, I’m a little tired of being told that the Arabs want to live in peace with us if only we would retreat to 67 borders.
The only thing that I find upsetting about it all is the NK boys joining in the fun.
Ah yes, another Marks-style appeaser. Not upset at all about open Nazism in Britain. And totally ignorant or choosing to be ignorant about the Israelis who have to sit in shelters. Idiot.
Nazis mascarading as humanitarians are so much more dangerous.
Michael Goldman
Those I know who live in Be’ersheva are holed down and report constant bombardment with sirens going through day and night. Israeli military intelligence seems also to disagree with you.
http://www.israelhayom.com/site/newsletter_article.php?id=802
Sunday August 21, 2011
A million Israelis under Gaza rocket threat
Over 100 rockets fired at south since Thursday
• 2 Israelis killed, dozens wounded
• Grad rocket hits empty school in Beersheba while kids on summer break
• Military Intelligence: Rockets smuggled into Gaza from Libya.
• IAF bombs targets in Gaza
So let’s not be flippant about this as you sit on your couch in Judea. Read: http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4111960,00.html
Sderot, Ashkelon, Ashdod, Beersheba….All major southern Israel cities are now under a heavy rocket offensive from Gaza. There are Jewish dead, babies wounded, schools and synagogues destroyed, entire cities and towns terrorized…………
Wait, Gaza is occupied according to Booth? Never mind, she’s one of those who defines the very existence of Israel as an occupation – what a loon. Why aren’t the British left all over this vitriol? They mock and ridicule groups such as the EDL, but get right behind groups like this. So sad.
Why aren’t the British Left all over this vitriol? This is a Left-Islamist allianc and it’s going on all over the globe and has been for decades. Let’s remember any fascist totalitarian mass murderer you could shake a camel at in teh 20th century was either islamist or socialist or both. The left oppose the EDL because the EDL stand in the way of their global socialist agenda.
Today’s left are happy to ally with any Brown Shirt and clerical fascist around. It’s called being ‘right on’, and is usually a sign of either a single-digit IQ or profound evil.
I am not happy to ally with “any Brown Shirt and clerical fascist” whether they are around or not.
When I grew up, at least in Germany, being on the left was being on the comparatively good side (the SPD was the only party not voting in favour of the ErmächtigungsGesetz) – further, at least half of my ancestry is worker/proletarian, first generation higher education.
Therefore crawling into elites’ behinds as so many “rights” seem to do with real pleasure is not, never has been and never will be done by me out of “conviction” let alone voluntarily.
i.e. insofar as class is concerned I continue to be “left” and my being pro-Israel is firmly rooted in that. For me Israel is full of people who work for a living in subordinant positions like I did and it is to them that I feel the strongest feeling of “sisterhood” assuming that they in Israel as elsewhere the majority.
And so yes I am a lefty and will continue to be one. Never forget it was not least the left who were the only ones who fought against the Browns in pre-1933 and after.
What you call left these days is an insult to the memory of those who died fighting facism.
I said “today’s left”. I can change that to “today’s crypto-fascists who call themselves ‘left’ but are not”.
However, don’t forget that the left includes Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Guevara et al, who between them murdered far more people than the Nazis ever did.
Silke
Hitler was elected as a National SOCIALIST not a Fascist! And I am sure you know the rest so I don’t have to spell it out.
Sharon
and the SPD, the Social Democrats, the workers’ party of old, was the only one that didn’t vote for his ErmächtigungsGesetz.
Since you want to pick words, the NSDAP weren’t fascists, those were the Italians. The Nazis had strong support in the nationals and for example in Hamburg it was the workers’ parts of the town who have the best record of resisting him, while the “elite” hastened to implement his stuff even before he got into power.
It is a lot more mixed than you want to have it and it was the socialists and the communists who fought the SA in the streets and did the dying while doing it. You shouldn’t take that credit away from them.
Alas according to Sebastian Haffner they couldn’t forget their differences of ideology and never managed to put up a united front thus making it easier for the thugs to pick them of.
Mind you there were only 300 of them. But no demos outside the Libyan/Syrian/ Pakistan embassies are being slaughtered daily
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Sharon
It’s all very well being indignant but please try to be factual.
I see nowhere in your links where Israeli intelligence claims that the population is holed down.
The residence under threat have been told that when there is a siren they should go to a shelter if one is near or a building if one is not and stay there for 10 minutes.
To compare this to 348 Nazi bombers over the skies of London is just stupid.
If anything the authorities have been asking the residence to please be a little more “holed down” as many don’t seek shelter at all and most of those who do leave immediately on hearing a big bang.
This is not “holed down” and we are all quite proud that in spite of the attempts of our enemies to disrupt the lives of our brave brothers in the South they refuse to allow this to happen and simply get on with their lives.
So please do not paint the insulting picture of my fellow countrymen being “holed down” nor give our enemies credit for achieving a level of disruption they have not come close to!
After The Holocaust ( which was declared beforehand in Nazi writings & speeches ) We should believe Anti-Semites when they declare that they are going to kill The Jews .
Signs calling for ” Death To Israel ” mean exactly that & We must defend Ourselves by whatever means are necessary .
Al Quds Day was first invented by the tyrant Ayatollah Khomeini in 1979 – it is a disgrace that a provocation originating from the Terror Regime of Iran ( which tortures & murders Iranian Trade Unionists , Iranian LGBT people , Women , and Bahais – and also funds & arms Terrorists who have killed British Soldiers in Iraq & Afghanistan ) should be tolerated on British streets !
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Booth should be prosecuted for (allegedly – RM) inciting racial hatred. . Eventually I will make the move to Israel. I can’t stand the UK anymore, this is not an environment for a Jew to live in – I was in the IT sector at one time, but that has become so Islamified that I can’t do it anymore. Too much antisemitism – too many arguments. I now work for myself. Long term I will be leaving. I’m just a Jewish guy that lives in the UK, but now I know that I’m just passing through. I’m never voting again either because there aren’t enough of our community to make a difference. They just use our vote and do what they want. F***k this country.
Barry, there are enough of us if we get organised, it’s a question of focus
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Note the interesting choice of words:
“To us your nation does not exist because it is a criminal injustice against humanity..”
I believe this to be a Freudian slip and if challenged, the lady would without a doubt explain that her intent was to say “state” not “nation”, but isn’t that what a Freudian slip is? The interference of some unconscious wish, conflict, or train of thought, like the lady who offers a gentleman caller “Bed and butter”.
That is the problem of so many anti-Semites. Though they may labor hard to cover up their true wishes with a professed opposition to “current Israeli government policy” or even “general disdain negation of Zionism rather than Judaism, or Zionists rather than Jews” the casing is oh so fine, that it is often enough to just scratch that veneer of humanity to reveal beneath the vilest of monsters. “To us your nation does not exist..”
Regarding one million Israelis being holed up, I’m sorry Sharon, but all the articles you quote notwithstanding, it just isn’t true. The situation is far from ideal and most of the facts you sight are quite accurate, but together they do not add up to anyone being holed up or anything near it.
This is one of the paradoxes of Israeli hasbara, trying to simultaneously present Israel as the embattled victim – which we are, while on the other hand persuade potential tourists, not to mention immigrants, that Israel is a safe place in which to live.
We live here, as I gather you do, and do not require Ynet to tell us what is going on. I was at a wedding last night, its bride and groom both live and study in Be’er Sheva. The room was full of students who came and returned quite freely and life in all these areas continues in every way in its relatively normal fashion. Goldman stole my words, but the article you cite, comparing the South of Israel to London under the Blitz with 20,000 killed is nothing less than ridiculous. A more relevant comparison of casualty figures might be to the number of Israeli killed and injured in traffic accidents on an average weekend.
Finally, note the cute kids with the posters. Next time we all express regret at “innocent Palestinian civilians” hurt in Israeli operations, forget their sweet faces and just remember the writing on their banners.
Daniel! Yes! Fascinating use of “nation”. I wanted to say that also. The Guardian recently referred to Israel as a “ nation” also in one of its editorials when taking Israel to task. What other countries, if any, are referred to as a “nation” One for a future blog I think. Fascinating stuff.
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This is one of the paradoxes of Israeli hasbara, trying to simultaneously present Israel as the embattled victim – which we are, while on the other hand persuade potential tourists, not to mention immigrants, that Israel is a safe place in which to live.
While I became slowly awake this morning I realised that Israel must do a pretty good balancing job. I asked myself the question: if I were to travel at all how would I feel about going to Turkey? Answer: no I’d rather not some uneasy feeling and mind you Turkey woes me with places like Ephesos
Next: how would I feel about Egypt? Answer: no I’d rather not, an even stronger uneasy feeling and mind you Egypt woes me with the prospect of a cruise on the Nile like in Agatha Christie “Death on the Nile” (not to mention Cleopatra).
Next: Israel, mmm why not, no uneasy feeling there, Jerusalem, Akron, the Dead Sea
Now why would that be?
After some hours wondering at the seeming irrationality of it and making sure that it wasn’t partisanship I finally came to the conclusion that imagining a trip to Israel I feel like I could move freely, stroll here, stroll there, marvel, admire and disapprove at will and not hear always a voice in the back of my head that says “Beware of respecting us” which is such a nuisance to a naturally curious mind. Also I imagine I could take a bus, take a train, rent a car, linger in a café, watch and enjoy myself without looks of what might she be after.
This may be unjust to Turkey and Egypt but it isn’t my fault if their “hasbara” creates those feelings in me.
Just in, another example of Israel presenting herself as highly attractive.
What a great great idea! and Google maps tell me that Rehovot is about 20 km south of Tel Aviv. Isn’t that where things are becoming dangerous?
http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/VideoLibrary/Power-of-context-makes-pub-lectures-a-hit-23-Aug-2011.htm?lang=english
Richard
My complete admiration . It really takes a strong heart and stomach to walk among this seething mass of human detritus . You deserve a medal and a long hot shower . Just too horrible for words . It’s almost better not to seek out this nether world of disgusting humanity in order to retain your own equilibrium .
But you like me have a dreadful curiosity to see what anti-Semitism looks like in the flesh.
Barry
You are not alone in thinking like that . I would be off like a shot if ” the other half felt the same . Fortunately I do not have to come into contact work wise . Actually quite the opposite , working mostly with Israeli clients but just the knowledge that they are here and behaving in this manner makes me sick to the core .
Barry please don’t be disallusioned when you get here, one or two of our leaders are perhaps less than perfect.
I know what you mean Harvey, if it wasn’t for my other halves I would probably be Prime Minister by now.
That’s true Richard . Is it masochism or as you say some morbid curiosity to see living breathing Jew hatred in the flesh . Apart from a couple of incidents at school and some Chelsea NF neandertals , the only other full on antisemitism ive experienced has come from the islamists and their supporters from the far and not so far left .
How many “other halves “do you have Michael ?
He has two, I have known them both and either would have made an outstanding first lady.
In fact, it is not Goldman’s troubles and strife that have hindered the fulfillment of his undeniable leadership potential, but the man himself has been his own worst enemy in refusing to abandon long held beliefs, such as his historical contention that Adolf Hitler had chicken feet.
Richard I really do admire your ability to stand amongst these racists and antisemites and record their disgusting actions. Note the complete silence from the mainstream media, and leftists.
Like a vision of hell – this is the future of the UK. The greater the Islamic influence, the worse it will be for Jews. Sensible people in the UK need to start thinking about leaving.
I have an answer and it is stop spending Jewish money in the UK. For example on business trips I used to fly though Heathrow on my way to Europe now I will do whatever it takes to avoid Heathrow so that I do not have to spend even one dollar in the UK. I will never go there for a vacation ever again even though I have a friend who lives there, I will tell him to meet me in Israel. Two can play at this game, stop buying british products and stop going to the UK. I have given up on the British they have always bent to the will of the Arabs and they will continue to do so. I am starting to think that it might be a good idea for Palestine to be made a state. Then the first time they fire a rocket into Israel we can call it an act of war and bomb them into the dark ages. Oh wait sorry they are already living in the dark ages. I think they should let the Palestinians have asylum in England, since they love them, so much. Like the Algerians and the French. All of this is designed to distract people from what is going on in Syria. Wake up people! This is it.This is the moment. Some time soon the newly “democratic” Egypt will join with the newly democratic (fundamentalist) Syria and they will attack Israel and their pals Hamas will be right on the front lines and all that work will be for nothing because just like before, we will kick the crap out of them and send them home with their tails between their legs.
This behavior is pathetically disgusting. It is the darkest evil of the 7th century come back to haunt humanity like a boogeyman in the night.
We tend to think of ourselves as advanced creatures, evolved from the animals — risen above them. Demonstration like this prove that our perceptions of civilizations are only dreams. Civilization may be nothing but a thin veneer, we humans nothing but vicious animals covered with decorative bits of cloth.
Insanity prevails. There is a prophecy that at a certain time in human history many people would not know the difference between right and wrong and discernment would escape many. That time is now.
Prayers for the Holy Land.
I have located the prophecy!!
Prayers from the Holy Land.
Booth is despicable. Really despicable. I do hope Cherie and Tony are ashamed to be related to her. Just an attention-seeker riding on the tailcoats of her brother-in-law’s fame. She’s one of Press TV’s poisonous trinity: Lauren Booth, George Galloway, and Yvonne Ridley. Looking at the signs those people are holding, I am scared for the future, and I’m not Jewish or Israeli.
Scampie i think your right. I am all for free speech but i think Press TV is a growing cancer that is gaining many viewers in the UK and around the world.
Lauren Booth – a Moslem convert from about two years ago – suddenly cannot live without Al Kuds. Apart from her lies – Moslems pray at Al Aksa every single day – this is utterly ludicrous.
But it demonstrates the incredible danger Britain poses for the Jewish people. Not since Nuremberg has their been a threat of this maginitude from a European country to the Jewish people.
Richard…I would like to use some of these pictures to spread the story here in the US…May I?
To the best of my knowledge and recollection Adam is not of the Mosaic faith. I mention this only because he writes that “sensible people in the UK need to start to think about leaving” – Were he a Jew, I undoubtedly would say, “Come home to Israel, what are you still waiting for?” as he is apparently not, his dilemma poses a greater challenge.
On the other hand, because he is a gentile, he will not tell me to mind my own business or that I understand nothing of the UK situation. Neither do I offer this advice because I believe that a further deterioration in the United Kingdom would have any profound effect on my life in Israel. However, I am an ageing man who still has genuine affection and nostalgia for England’s green and pleasant land, not to mention a debt to her for a very wonderful childhood.
I do not believe that the answer is not to run away, but to stand your ground and do battle. We gave away Gaza hoping that by feeding the monster, its appetite would somehow be fulfilled. Instead it just grew bigger, stronger and ever more noxious. Award Islam control of one UK city and its hunger will grow, give it a European state and it will only crave for many more. Like the lobster in the boiling pot forever changing positions in search of a comfortable place while blissfully unaware of the fact that it is being cooked, so the Westerner has nothing to gain by running from one country to another. Stand your ground and do battle.
Islam may appear threatening and unbeatable, but consider our position in Israel and be inspired. We occupy less than a quarter of a percent of the land area of the Middle East and our population is but the minutest of fractions. For all that, and even under often inept political leadership, we grow stronger and flourish in every way, day by day, year by year. Then consider how much better is your situation, the starting point of Western civilization in Europe today. The fight will not be effortless or without pain, but if you and your sons are ready to make the effort and endure the pain, I promise you that victory will be yours.
Finally and to be clear I am not talking about street fighting or urban terrorism. This is a cultural war of two conflicting civilizations and should be contested as such.
Oh Daniel for once you disappoint me!!!
Daughters and Mothers should be asked to stand up and be counted too.
… and if necessary they must be woed into objecting to islamification in the interest of their children.
I have no way to judge whether there really is an imminent danger I can just remember how all of a sudden streets and shops which had felt very mediterranean and welcoming became generous in looking sinister and what do you want here. To the best of my memory that shift happened in the first half of the nineties.
http://www.hudson-ny.org/2367/european-muslim-no-go-zones
I stand corrected.
Actually, I oppose military service for women, not that it’s done me much good as my eldest daughter has already served and the second one is getting ready to enlist next year. You can’t win them all.
I am of split mind as to military service for women – but that is a subject of so many pros and cons that we better not start on it (at least they should get compensated for the time spent later on when they get behind career-wise because of getting kids.
Just as a teaser now and then I read studies that when schools were still gender-segregated girls did much much better in math than they do now. When I entered my first mixed class all the math champs happened to be female but being good at math is a sure one to make one loose sex-appeal and so on and so on – the chain is endless.
I am really thinking that these people are not only ignorant, but dangerous as well. I agree that they should be taken to court and charged with incitement to hatred and this country is falling down in it’s duty by NOT taking action1111
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There is a certain consistency here. Israel must be destroyed … by others.
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Michaela and Daniel
When you live at the epicentre of the tornado there is no perception of the devastation it reeks as it moves around. Sorry to contradict you, but there is a war on in Israel as we write and most people in the south are affected and holed up – not locked down, but their every living second is dominated by the anticipation of the next siren and where they will be when that happens and where their sons and daughters will be. That doesn’t stop them trying to get ahead and live a normal life. They are Israelis born and bred and understand what is happening. I have just returned from Israel and most who live in the Sharon Valley or on the hills of Haifa far away from the Gaza border carry on regardless as though nothing is going on. Perhaps you suffer the same malaise? When I travel down south it is a different story. Maybe you should take a drive that way? Or perhaps you listen to the World Service or watch Sky TV who fail to broadcast what is happening?
This makes me feel physically sick….woe until you who come against the pupil of God’s eye
Hi Sharon,
This is getting a little comical. I don’t live in the epicenter of a tornado, nor do I listen to the BBC or watch SKY. However, as I write my younger daughter Rachelle is driving down to the “South” to meet friends, yes you’ve guessed, in Be’er Sheva. When she returns I’ll ask her whether she was holed down. On the other hand I had a long chat with my sister Sara last night whose husband Elkana manages the Be’er Sheva shopping mall. I’m pretty sure that if they were holed either down or up she’d have said something.
Now YNET, let’s first examine the Hebrew page.
Item 1: Finance Committee on problems of Israeli middle classes. (domestic)
Item 2: Margo Sanani Israeli pop star under arrest for three more days. (domestic)
Item 3: Who will follow Kaddafi? (word)
Item 4: Something about a dead secular poet.
Check the whole page. Search for anyone holed in any way. Now let’s go to YNET in English – I wonder who that’s written for.
Item 1: Livni calls on Barak to Quit (defense orientated)
Item 2: Iran Unveils New Missile (defense orientated)
Item 3: Attacks Caused by our Sins (defense orientated)
Item 4: Yes, Apologize to Egypt (International Relations)
Are you getting the idea Sharon or should I spell it out? Which of the two do you think reflects what grassroots Israeli society is focusing on?
Sorry Sharon, I forgot the links:
Hebrew
http://www.ynet.co.il/home/0,7340,L-8,00.html
English
http://www.ynetnews.com/home/0,7340,L-3083,00.html
was this not considered a race hate crime?Incitement etc???how could this be allowed? reverse– anti- arab/Islam demo– would not be tolerated;this is too much and should be stamped out.
Feel better Christine, and thanks for the timely woe.
As an American (Texan) I see in my country what has already been decades in the making in the UK and in Europe. The difference is, It is much more accelerated by the infusion from the leftists and socialists who still believe that the Beast can be appeased. Oh my brother Israel, we see the truths and pray for your strength and longevity. Your plight is the plight of the whole world. That to overcome and defeat the vile, evil cancer that is Islam. There will be no peace without total submission, and this will never happen. Unto my dieing breath I will stand in support of The Nation Of Israel and her peoples. I choose to stand and fight here, in my land, but the cause is one and the same.
Wow! Thanks a lot James, I’m guessing that you’re a Christian as we rarely get that kind of unconditional support from our Jewish brethren abroad.
I wouldn’t worry too much about our longevity. We’ve been around, well, pretty much since the time of Abraham and our mission is still not complete, so we aren’t going anywhere.
Regarding our strength, I believe that people like you have an important role to play. Many of my countrymen foolishly seem to think that the whole world is against us and they are all demanding that we give away parts of Israel. We don’t need your money, but nothing would be more wonderful than if you and a few friends were to visit Israel to show us your support, to show those faint of heart that we are not alone.
Bring your wife and your kids and your neighbors and I promise you an unforgettable holiday. My only request is that you make a tee-shirt saying “Texas Loves Israel” and wear it when you arrive. I’ll meet you at the airport.
James, I Iive literally five minutes away from the Inn of the Good Samaritan, can you imagine? I’ll take you there, then we can sit in my yard, drink local Judean wine and toast our two great nations. Do we have a deal?
danielmarks@walla.com
As a Jew, I am appalled by the message of the pickets. As an American, I am appalled by the calls for their criminal prosecution. When I read comments such as are in this thread, I am grateful that I live in the land of the First Amendment. At least in my country (which actually is a nation), no court would even entertain an attempt to censor or punish the protesters.
http://cifwatch.com/2011/08/23/geary-theory-a-goy-contemplates-as-a-jews/
Daniel, I thought that I should identify my religion so as to give context to my remarks concerning the First Amendment. Of course, there is no way to poll American Jews on what they think of them, but I believe that a majority would agree with me; the First Amendment has been our friend. We put up with the messiness that it allows so that our own freedom to speak out and act is not trammeled.
Just teasing. Actually I agree with a lot of what you wrote.
Total freedom has, in history at least, always ended up with the strongmen getting on top of all. I think things have gone so comparatively well opinion wise in the US because there is lots of competition and to date it has always been a back and forth and things have evened out at least after a while they did.
And now you can go ahead and tell me that if only we allowed more competition paradise would break out.
How many people were at this hatefest? The PressTV report claims thousands, but in the clips I’ve seen it looks like no more than a couple of hundred. Obviously we must oppose these people at every turn, but we shouldn’t get panicked by an over-estimate of their numbers. Maybe someone with deeper pockets than mine could mount a civil action against the speakers for incitement to murder.
Thats good to know steve . Take care pulling the splinters out your backside from sitting on the fence . Is hate speech acceptable under your First Amendment ?
It’s interesting to note that you begin your comment with the ” as a jew” signature . I had not realized it had crossed the Atlantic .
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Harvey, yes, hate speech is protected under the First Amendment. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R._A._V._v._City_of_St._Paul See also Snyder v. Phelps, a recent decision that upheld picketing of military funerals. (Unfortunately, the Supreme Court website is not allowing me to download the text of that ruling right now.) We do not let the government regulate what people may say. Moreover, the targets of free speech cannot recover for emotional distress.
Hate speech is to be distinguished from hate crimes, which require some unlawful activity as a predicate (and neither writings nor speech qualifies as the predicate). It is not yet clear how far the hate-crime laws may constitutionally apply.
Ric, you wrote: “Maybe someone with deeper pockets than mine could mount a civil action against the speakers for incitement to murder.” In my country, such a claim would be laughable. You cannot even recover for intentional infliction of emotional distress! See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hustler_Magazine_v._Falwell
Steve, I think our legal systems are very different. We have been watching the way lawyers for Ms Diallo have been briefing against Strauss-Khan in the media. You just wouldn’t be allowed to do that in the UK. Our laws of defamation are also must more draconian than yours. We have also abolished capital punishment etc.
Richard, I am CERTAIN that our legal systems are very different. Yes, we allow much more comment in the press. Also, your law of defamation is so alien to our system that we enacted a law to counter so-called libel tourism. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SPEECH_Act_of_2010 This is the text of the law; you can see just how sweeping it is: http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/PLAW-111publ223/html/PLAW-111publ223.htm
Steve
you are being very disingenious – the US has very effective methods to keep people in line and don’t you deny it.
Of course your methods are vastly superior to anything mankind has ever invented anywhere before you came up with it.
Addressed only and exclusively to Steve.
Fortunately I’ve had the privilege to know lots and lots of Americans who are much more culturally savvy and know the power of context.
But in your country you are proud to raise a stink about too much cleavage shown (Hillary Clinton), about a nipple exposed and are as eager as Victorian spinsters to know and judge all what others do between the sheets.
Any comparison between the US and Europe is futile and ridiculous. You are so different from “us” in your whole approach and understanding of all things legal that no comparison is possible.
But in general of course you are better than anybody else, with you human evolution has reached its peak, nothing better will ever come after you, just like we left the Neanderthals behind you left the old-worlders behind with your insufferable “do as we do and you’ll be saved attitudes”.
Silke, I was writing about the power of government to censor and punish, not about the conduct of non-government actors. We certainly have our problems, but they are problems of society, and many of them are not the province of the government to correct.
I am taken by this sentence: “Fortunately I’ve had the privilege to know lots and lots of Americans who are much more culturally savvy and know the power of context.” Kindly elucidate. Who are these Americans? What do you mean by “more culturally savvy”? Ditto “the power of context.”
Steve
I would be very much mistaken if amongst those who pontificated after 7/7 that it was all Europeans’ fault that America would never have home-grown terrorists because they knew how to treat their own muslims decently and so on and so on were no government officials joining in that self-congratulatory lecturing the world on “do as we do and all will be fine”. Once the US had its first case or even before it stopped. Let’s hope it was before and some memory on how to behave decently came back to your elitist talking heads. But I remember the incredible smugness and callousness of those utterances and you remind me very much of them.
What I mean by culturally savvy is that no culturally savvy person would forget the rules of polite society towards a foreign blog like you have done in this thread while parading your superior virtues in the most pompous manner possible.
If you don’t believe me here you are with your first appalling message on how appalled you are (twice!).
The power of context is that you know nil or next to nil about how those British laws may have come into being. Usually rules and regulations once had a good reason to come into being and society has a really tough time getting rid of them again because they have gotten very much entangled with lots and lots of the rest of jurisdiction.
And I say that though I am very much in favour of American “what the heck let’s go and do it-ism” but I very much object to getting told I am just “old Europe” and should do as I am told. When I lived “occupied” by you none of you acted ever that way. What has gotten into your mind that you think being sanctimonious and holier than thou is your birth-right?
I now can present a link to Snyder v. Phelps so that you can see just how different our systems are: http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/10pdf/09-751.pdf
Note the end of the Syllabus: “(d) Westboro addressed matters of public import on public property, in a peaceful manner, in full compliance with the guidance of local officials. It did not disrupt Mathew Snyder’s funeral, and its choice to picket at that time and place did not alter the nature of its speech. Because this Nation has chosen to protect even hurtful speech on public issues to ensure that public debate is not stifled, Westboro must be shielded from tort liability for its picketing in this case. Pp. 14–15.”
Yes your systems are different and that gives you the right to be appalled, appalled and appalled?
Just one more question:
have you ever read comments on Yaacov Lozowick’s blog whenever somebody no matter how obscure in Israel thought of proposing something that an American democracy fundamentalist wouldn’t approve of?
First they were appalled, appalled, appalled, second there came the accusation that Israel wouldn’t be a democracy any longer (by which they implied that only a democracy with a tested by the US stamp is a democracy worth protecting) and so on and so on from there.
There is something like respect for a sovereign state’s sovereign decisions.
I sincerely hope it is just you and you are not the messenger bringing all those people over here now that Yaacov had had to close his blog because he became the state archivar of Israel and they are going to establish a branch of the NIF in Britain.
Hi Sharon
What’s all this crap about the epicentre of the tornado ?
Do you mean that the people living in southern Israel don’t know what’s going on there so you have to explain to them?
I live in Israel, hear the news contantly (I’m in the car a lot so not much of sky news),listen to residence of Southern Israel being inteviewed and the only one I have so far heard complaining about being holed up is Sharon Klaff from North London!
Give it a rest Shazza!
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Obnoxious Muslim woman harrasses Muslim shopkeeper for stocking Israeli dates
Sunfresh
Carlton Terrace
11-13 Green Street, Upton
London, E7
020 8470 3031
If I lived in London, I’d go down there, buy all his dates and shake the mans hand.
A “nice” example that if you are kind to the cruel you are cruel to the kind.
If the authorities don’t stop her from putting up her show in front of that shop the shop will eventually have to give in and no more Israeli dates will be sold there. Another possibility is that someone within the community has the authority or the ruthlessness to talk or beat some sense back into her.
The story about Israelis tying up Palestinians on top of the date trees and not letting them down for more than 10? hours sounds like slander to me. In Germany at least individuals can at least theoretically sue for slander. I hope something similar is possible in the UK.
But of course if you had that possibility and made use of it you would probably give even more Americans appallatics.
I’m not certain that the lady in question has ever seen a date tree and if she has, she’s never climbed one. We have many in Maale Adumim and, though I’ve never tried, I can tell you that it’s quite impossible to tie anyone to its thin palm branches, Palestinian or otherwise.
We do have a couple of lemon trees and a loquat tree too, but while our gardener is the excellent Magdi from El Azaria, I’ve never tied him to a tree and he has never tied me to one either. Why should we want to?
After reading the Hamas covenant:
“The Day of Judgement will not come about until Muslims fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Muslims, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews.”
I once asked Magdi if he could plant a couple of Gharkad in the back garden, just in case, but he seemed embarrassed and professed not to know to what I was referring and I didn’t press the point.
Israelis “holed down” in Ashqelon!
“Yes your systems are different and that gives you the right to be appalled, appalled and appalled?”
What did the protesters do other than offend you and the people who agree with you that those who have a different view on a contentious issue should be punished for expressing it? I agree that the protesters are offensive, wrong, and potentially dangerous, but the problem with an ad hoc desire to shut them down and perhaps prosecute them is what would be the basis for doing so? If you do not have objective standards for deciding what can be lawfully stated and what cannot, what would be the basis for taking action against people who merely stand in public with signs and banners and make statements? That is, what would be the basis for viewpoint discrimination?
“have you ever read comments on Yaacov Lozowick’s blog whenever somebody no matter how obscure in Israel thought of proposing something that an American democracy fundamentalist wouldn’t approve of?”
I have never read his blog. I read extremely few blogs. I came to this one only because of a link on one of those blogs. I generally steer clear of debates on Israel because participants seem so committed to one view or another that there is nothing more than assertions, counter-assertions, and counter-counter-assertions, along with accusations, counter-accusations, and counter-counter-accusations. Ugh.
“There is something like respect for a sovereign state’s sovereign decisions.”
Why should I not be able to compare your system with ours? (I can assure you that I have a lot of problems with our system too.) I have no idea what you mean by “respect.” A number of sovereign states make sovereign decisions to put newspaper reporters and commentators in jail for doing their jobs. Am I supposed to accept those decisions? As I noted in a link in an earlier comment, our Congress recently enacted a law to nullify, to the maximum extent possible, the effect of your sovereign (judicial) decision to apply your libel laws to our authors and publications. Would you complan about that as well?
Steve, 2 young men were put in prison for 4 years recently for inciting the London riots. They didn’t do anything except write on Facebook telling people to riot in a certain place. So that’s the law in the UK. You disagree with it, which is great. But, as Silke has said it has evolved over hundreds of years for certain cultural reasons. So, this isn’t about Israel, it’s about upholding British law. If the law has been breached in any way then the police will put the case to the Crown Prosecution Service who would then decide whether to prosecute or not. What I or others on this blog want\demand is immaterial. All we can do is alert the police to our concerns and they take over from there.
Sent from my BlackBerry® wireless device
richard, in your post you wrote “But there is no point filming and doing nothing. When will we start to see arrests for incitement?” The answer is when there is an incitement. It is a question of time, place, and manner. There has to be a call for imminent, if not immediate, action, and there was none. Moreover, the call has to be to urge the commission of a crime.
Could the message of the demonstrators incite someone to commit a crime? If so, where was the criminal action? Your own presentation makes it clear that they engaged in a purely rhetorical exercise. I am sure that it was not a pleasant experience to watch, but incitement requires both an immediacy to act and the need for the act to be a crime.
The Facebook message situation may well have met that standard, and the men might well have been convicted here as well. (I use “may” and “might” because I do not know all of the facts.) Posting on Facebook under the circumstances in which it was done seems no different from screaming to a crowd to sack and burn. You seem to assume that I would never agree with a conviction. That is just not so. It is a question, again, of time, place, and manner. Speech has never been protected when it is an element of, or evidence of, an actual crime.
Incitement to possible racial hatred also, Steve.
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“Incitement to possible racial hatred.” There definitely is no American analogue to that sort of thing, as you can see from the R.A.V. decision. If the hatred should take the form of intimidation, then there is probably a crime. But mere rhetorical hatred is protected. The Snyder v. Phelps decision makes that clear.
Apart from all that, how does race enter into the mix?
You don’t think Death to Israel might be intimidating to israelis and, possibly, Jews?
Calling for “Death to Israel” is no incitement.
“Israel must be destroyed” is no incitement.
I am not baffled any longer that the world came to the Olympics of 1936 as if nothing was going on.
Steve will take care that all the world realises that only if the first or the second or the thousandst is flowing that incitement may be called incitement.
“You don’t think Death to Israel might be intimidating to israelis and, possibly, Jews?”
I have no doubt that they did not like what they saw, but did they take any action as a result? Did they change their behavior, make defensive plans, or do anything else that would indicate that they believed that they were likely to be attacked? If not, then where is the intimidation?
The law is that if someone feels harassment, alarm or distress then an offence has been committed. I think you are making laws for us Brits, which is very kind of you, but we are a sovereign country with an elected Parliament that is able to legislate without the help of Steve.
“The law is that if someone feels harassment, alarm or distress then an offence has been committed. I think you are making laws for us Brits, which is very kind of you, but we are a sovereign country with an elected Parliament that is able to legislate without the help of Steve.”
I thought that it might be helpful for you to see the American perspective. If it is really true that a crime has been committed merely if one feels harassment, alarm, or distress, then you seem to have a subjective standard that seems ripe for abuse. How does the defendant refute the accusation? What sort of evidence is necessary to secure a conviction?
I am curious to see how such a rule works in operation. Is there an act of Parliament, or is it a common-law rule? Could you please provide a citation or two? Thank you.
http://www.cps.gov.uk/news/fact_sheets/racially_aggravated_offences/
Then here is section 5 harassment alarm distress:
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1986/64
1) I am not British
2) You could have gathered a bit of information first before you proclaimed yourself appalled, appalled, appalled by a different understanding of the law in a different country.
3) To name just one, Hisbollah advocates for the murder of Jews, so people flying that flag agree with that demand. They are asking for murder or support the asking for murder.
4) “Death to Israel” is IMHO incitement to murder – maybe I am too much steeped in the history of Jews in Europe for being able to nonchalantly overlook that and say they don’t mean it that way. In Europe they always meant it all through the ages whenever they got started that is.
5) During another event Richard was forbidden to continue filming while the others were allowed to go on. i.e. different standards for the wannabe-killers but not for an observer
6) and most important I’d like to have your freedom of speech expertise on this one – surely that one is also covered by Freedom of Speech and you have learned to live with the messyness of it.
http://www.nybooks.com/blogs/nyrblog/2011/jul/25/neglecting-lithuanian-holocaust/
PS: LOL you complain about too many accusations being common on blogs concerned with Israel and then you make your entrance onto just such a blog how?
By ACCUSING the other commenters of misbehaving and declaring yourself appalled, appalled, appalled.
LOL again and thanks – I love to laugh.
and last but not least: whenever I am reminded of this episode I admire the US for somehow guaranteeing that their police is respected enough, powerful enough that they can protect young Daniel from the mob. If that should be a side effect of your free speech fundamentalism I hope that you’ll be able to preserve it and not let it get undermined by presidential off the cuff judgments on police behaviour (beer at the White House incident)
Just remembering: wasn’t it Harvard Press that published a book on the Mohammed cartoons without a single cartoon because such a cartoon might affect I forgot whom? Do you remember? And earlier it was European media which published the cartoons, way too few of them but they did. So at least the record is mixed.
Interesting Rich – I think you need to organise a few demos yourself. Much as I dislike what they are doing I can’t say that I would want them arrested (after all I advocated US and UK going to war in Iraq – damn dossiers!). We (Brits) are a nation and I refer to us as a nation so there may be nought in that although Daniel make an interesting point. Was demo peaceful? Arrests probably would have risked significant aggravation – probably not best idea at moment in London!
Well done on the 5 wickets.
Which interesting point?
Steve
It is simply naive in the extreme to think that those chanting these hateful slogans don’t really mean Jews.
Daniel Marks, I am lucky enough to hold dual citizenship so my family and I have somewhere else to go. You are of course right that one has to fight back and take a stand – I hope I do that. However, there comes a point when it is simply dangerous to stay any longer – I don’t believe we are there yet, but we are rapidly moving in that direction – and at that point, fighting the good fight is no longer viable. You just have to get out. Our best hope is that world events take a turn which change domestic opinion for the better.
It is noteworthy that the pictures above are hardly representative of most British people. But the silence in the face of them is what is truly frightening.
An American lecturing Brits on what is wrong with their law is beyond ridiculous, meaningless and futile and outright rude to boot.
If Steve would ask questions trying to understand the British view, that might be interesting but he is apparently practicing for his job as a Staatsanwalt (public prosecutor says Google) or maybe in a court room drama movie.
Yesterday I (re)read a Lord Wimsey novel in which in 1920 Wimsey got shot at and hit in the shoulder by a communist. Though the police knew about the shot and the injury and given the circumstances the shot might well have been meant to be deadly Wimsey was free to decide not to press charges.
As best I know that is impossible under German law and was back then in 1920. There as best I know the victim has no say in whether prosecution takes place or not.
Now who of us two got it righter?????
An American lecturing Brits on what is wrong with their law is beyond ridiculous
Utter nonsense. In many ways, American law is lightyears ahead of UK law, e.g. in the arena of free speech and libel.
The Superintendent of the Protestant Church for Upper Austria, Wilhelm Mensing-Braun, based in the Austrian city of Linz were Eichmann was born, wrote a letter to the foreign affairs department of the Evangelical Church in Germany in Frankfurt claiming that the mass murderer “had a fundamentally decent disposition,” was “kind-hearted,” and was characterized by “great helpfulness.”
Braun went on that he could not imagine that the former SS officer “would ever have been capable of cruelty or criminal acts.”
http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,781619,00.html#ref=nlint
I’ve heard stuff like that said so many times about so many people that the Steves of this world who claim that what they say has no consequences until it has had consequences get to me i.e. I can’t stand them
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Steve
if people are making plans to migrate to Israel stating that they don’t feel safe anymore is that proof of intimidation for your apparently oh so superior American law system?
I have read that there are Jewish schools in the UK that need to be patrolled by armed guards? Enough intimidation for you? (The Jewish high school in Berlin is patrolled by armed men)
I don’t know how common harrassment in streets is in the UK – in Germany there are areas Jews wouldn’t care to go to – enough intimidation for you? And people trying to further that with speeches meant to create more fervour should be suffered with equanimity.
I have read that the number of attacks on Jews in the US is higher by percentage as that on Jews.
Instead of taking here a stance of being holier than thou it’d be nice if you’d tell us where the flaws in your system are that work against Jews being safe.
Steve
in the light of what you are telling us here would you mind to explain how that made the McCarthy aera possible? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_McCarthy
thanks!
I look forward to that one, because that is something I have never understood.
More Israelis “holed down” last night in Ashkelon. Sorry about the lighting.
If the subject has arisen I must admit I’ve been feeling a bit holed down myself lately.
I was just saying tho the wife last night:
“Iris” I said to her
“I’ve been feeling a bit holed down lately”
“Must be all that bombing in Be’er Sheva” She replied
Ben Cohen fisks Roger Cohen’s report on his encounters with anti-semitism in the UK
I have read Ben and feel no desire to read Roger but somebody might be interested in the context especially since Roger seems to complain about the lack of muscle in UK Jews albeit in a twist Daniel might not agree with.
http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/roger-cohen-discovers-antisemitism/
At last!!
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-14638515
A bunch of misfits, freaks, and losers. The British welfare system has done a real good job! //sarc.
Instead of addressing the real issue, Michael Goldman makes light of the fact that hundreds if not thousands of Israelis go about their lives under fear of rocket attack. Instead of fruitless argument amongst ourselves, those of us who are concerned about the future of the state of Israel should be asking H M Government which is the greater barrier to peace in the Middle-East – settlements built on less that 5% of the Disputed Territories or the demands for the total destruction demonstrated in the pics above? And keep hassling them until you get answers.
Hi Bonnie
I’m not uite sure which real issue you feel I should be addressing and I’m even more confused by why you think that asking H M Government ( Do you mean the whole govenment or a particuler bit) “which is the greater barrier to peace in the Middle-East – settlements built on less that 5% of the Disputed Territories or the demands for the total destruction demonstrated in the pics above?” is going to make the slightest difference to Israel.
But thanks for the concern.
Life in Be’ersheva – read the comments – from a comfy couch if needs be:
http://www.jpost.com/Headlines/Article.aspx?id=235255
Some of us here in the US have UK roots. My paternal grandparents born in Kent and Dundee. I have seen the place where my grandfather was born in Cooling. I probably feel as close to England and Scotland as most Jews do to Israel. To me, this nasty business is as upsetting as is to many of you. My culture is still more English, Scottish and Irish than American.
Due to the education I had, probably.
Yes, I am one of those Christians who supports Israel. But I am also a person of British, Scottish and Irish descent who values “our” culture. And it’s going away.
Hi again Sharon
If your posting was refering to our previuos discussion then there’s nothing new in your link.
We know there are rockets and we know that there have been casualties and we also know that the population is not allowing itself to be holed up but even continues with everyday activities such as swimming lessons.
What’s all this about my comfy couch?
It is actually quite comfy but I prefer sitting at a table when on the computer.
As opposed to many who choose to express their support for Israel manly by typing comments on this excellent blog I know Sharon Klaff to be a lady who not only talks the talk, but also walks the walk. I have seen pictures of her taking off time and canvassing support for Israel in the high streets of Golders Green, a locality to which wild horses could not drag this writer back. I also know her to be a proud Jew.
For this reason, because I know that there are, unfortunately, precious few Sharon Klaffs, I have no doubt that her heart is in the right place and since there is nothing to be gained by further debating what are to my mind empirical facts, I say that if it is important for Sharon to believe that one million of us are holed down here in Israel, so be it.
Furthermore, I believe that Sharon may be pleasantly surprised on her next trip to the Holy Land to discover that we have at last emerged from our holes, in no small measure thanks to the endeavors of our brethren in the Diaspora.
Worrying much more are the vanities spoken by a new cyber armchair Zionist, who in one breath both accuses Michael Goldman of making light of the plight of thousands of Israelis and christens himself Bonny Prince Charlie.
No, whoever you are. The end of the unacceptable obscene shelling attacks on mainland Israel will not be facilitated by blokes with funny names “hassling” Her Majesty’s Government or that of Timbuktu about the percentage of Judea and Samaria currently settled. The crises in the South of Israel is an Israeli matter and when the Israeli government, with the help of G-d, instructs the IDF to put a stop to the shelling, the shelling will stop. The decision is not, however, a simple one and it will have far-reaching political repercussions both in Israel and abroad as well as potentially unforeseeable military, economic and social consequences. I am pleased it is not mine to make, and for that reason we have, thank G-d, our democratically elected leadership.
In my opinion the not unimportant role of our supporters abroad, Jew and Gentile alike, is to unconditionally back the policies of the Israeli government, neither second-guessing it from left or from right, nor by underestimating or exaggerating the dangers that we face. Finally, and with respect, we whose lives and those of our children and theirs are affected in the most existential way possible by our handling of these matters do not need to be told by Bonny Prince Charlie what we “should be asking ourselves”.
Dear Lauren and other nuts – we were here – we are here – and we will be here. The likes have you have been here before – new fools are here now and no doubt more ignoramuses will arrive in the future. Do not mess with G-d’s people. What did the Arabs and more particularly the new Arabs – only 44 years old, called Palestinians ever create, build or contribute. Your lessons on how not to behave towards other Moslems and Infidels is not a “contribution”. Lauren how did you get there? Arab lovers?
As a Christian I find these photos are sickening. Israel must be destroyed for world peace? Imagine if we organised a demo and held up placards saying Iran must be destroyed for world peace. How they get away with it is beyond me. I can quite understand Jewish people wanting to get out of Britain now that this kind of thing is tolerated here. As for Lauren Booth ranting on about injustice. Let her go and live in a Muslim country and see what it is like. As well as hating Israel and Jewish people, Christians are persecuted across the Islamic world, – the more Islamic they are the worse it is for Christians. May the Lord deliver us from this evil that has risen up in our midst!
Daniel Marks
I try to do what I can within the frame of my life. I act as best I can and I speak out loud for all those reasons that Jews have been exterminated for their silence. I was brought up in the shadow of Jabotinsky for whom my father was personal assistant and friend during his tours of Southern Africa. Yes I regret not living in Israel and being part of our history and our future as a Jewish nation in the fullest capacity possible. However reality has placed me in the UK, a country that increasingly is becoming overt in its Jew hatred, a bravery unleashed on the backs of Islamic Jew hatred that expresses itself with impunity in the very seat of democracy. A country that has laws to protect us against death threats and calls for the return of Khyber, but ignores those laws when it comes to Jews and Israel. A country swooned by Arabian Knights with Lawrence as its hero. A country with hypocrisy so great it is blinding in its fervent support of the tyrant Gaddafi and when outed, can go to the limits to hound and destroy its once friend. Although my life is here in the UK, I visit Israel often as my family live there and indeed my parents are proudly buried in the land of their desires. My most recent visit was this very month. I know and understand the paradoxes of living in Israel, the almost schizophrenic existence that enables people to live a normal life whilst all the time concerned for the next explosion. Being holed down is certainly a life in which a drive to a swimming lesson is interrupted by the necessity to lie on the pavement whilst waiting for the sound of the explosion, hoping it will be in a faraway field with no victims. Being holed down is a child growing up with that fear, a fear any Western child is oblivious of, knowing such dangers only from the unreality of Star wars films and computer games. It is a wonder and a statement of character that Israelis can carry on regardless to create a place so marvellous in its enterprise, its compassion, its desire for peace and its goodwill to others who face catastrophe. It is indeed a marvel that a people can grow despite the world pressure to have them annihilated, and grow in a way to make more than its fair share contribution to the wellbeing of the entire world. It is a marvel that even under such circumstances a man can take his child to learn how to swim, to give him a semblance of normality in this nightmare situation whilst at the same time his daughter is being sworn in as a soldier in the army that will protect her brother. That is why I have to speak out as loud as I possibly can and if some want to mock and torment a person for doing the best they can then so be it.
Dear Lauren, Your appeal for Jordan, Egypt and Lebanon to destroy Israel says a lot about you. I assume you’re about 38 years old. If you were older, you would know that the Arab Nations including the 3 you appeal to, have tried on several occasions to destroy Israel and failed. The Egyptians have been trying for many years and have only succeeded in our having to eat Matzoh. The Jordanians – the less said the better, not much chance there. Also failed previously. As for Lebanon, a beautiful country that has murdered large numbers of Christians and is busy trying to survive as a free country – but only if they can overcome the Iranian, Syrian and Islamic extremists who meddle in their affairs. They too failed previously. I’m afraid they’re all to busy with other matters. Try someone else? If you do not have an Arab lover, you must’ve been dumped by a Jewish lover some time in your past. I’m searching for a reason to explain why your “brain” is so addled with mindless hatred.
Hi Sharon,
Everything I wrote about you in my last comment were said in sincerity and if you understood otherwise or feel that I was tormenting you, I do unreservedly apologize. I admit to mocking, in case you haven’t noticed I mock many and am mocked back by no fewer. I consider such playful jive to be an almost integral part of blogging. To the best of my recollection I never assailed you personally, I merely attempted, ad nausea, to persuade you that we are not holed up. I had, before your posting, determined to drop the subject, and if you so wish will direct no further comments to you, nor mention you anymore. Once again be assured that I do respect you and sincerely apologize.
Regarding your comments about life as a Jew in the UK, it is probably a topic for a blog of its own, suffice it to say some elements of our backgrounds are similar; I too was a member and councilor in a Revisionist Zionist youth movement and in many ways still see myself as follower of Jabotinski, who my maternal grandfather knew too, but only briefly. Many things you say about the dangers of life in Israel, serving and harder still, one’s children serving in the IDF are true, but for all of that I am indescribably happy to to be here, do not envy your lot nor that of your Jewish countrymen, and hope one day to have the privilege of seeing you all here as citizens of the State of Israel.
In the meantime I wish you all the best and Tel Hai!
Daniel
Sharon
I must admit that I find it faintly annoying being told that I live a schizophrenic existence.
My existence is neither schizophrenic neither is it paradoxical.
Admittedly I don’t live in the South but intend to travel to Eilat on Sunday and though there was recently an attack on a bus in Eilat I have no fear for myself my wife or my children.
Well that isn’t quite true.If we drive down I am a little worried about road accidents and the childrens bickering.
A few years ago when there were suicide bombers in Jerusalem my office was less than 500 meters from at least three of the catastrphies.
It may seem strange for somebody who doesn’t live here and obviously doesn’t understand the mentality of those who do but people generally do not live in fear.None of my workers said they were afraid to come to work and I know of no other workers who didn’t come to work.
My partners wife’s shop was badly damaged but didn’t for a moment think of moving.
The shoppers may have stayed away for a couple of days but that’s about all.
I don’t think we’re particularly brave but rather put it down to statistics.
About 500 people are killed in Israel every year in road accidents.Much fewer are killed by terrorists.
I am more afraid of how my children cross the road than them being in Be’er Sheva.
On the other hand I must admit that I would be terrified if I knew that every day my kids would have to go to school in England especially if they used the underground.
If a had to live in the UK, a country that increasingly is becoming overt in its Jew hatred, a bravery unleashed on the backs of Islamic Jew hatred that expresses itself with impunity in the very seat of democracy,I would probably never leave the house.
I don’t know why you try to romanticise Israel but life here really isn’t as you describe it.
I happen to think you are much braver than me deciding to live in a country that hates you, a country in which the Jewish population has halved in about 50 years, a country where crazys roam the streets destroying shops and houses, a country in which Jewish youths get beaten up just because they are Jewish, a country whose Jew hating population is growing in leaps and bounds
Being holed down is a child growing up with the fear that he could be stabbed at the bus stop, a fear any Israeli child is oblivious of, knowing such dangers only from the unreality of films and computer games.
It is a wonder and a statement of character that you carry living in the UK regardless.
For the life of me I just can’t understand why!
Have a good holiday
Some people will not support Israel because of sheer cowardice. These Islamic thugs should be deported and all those in parliament who oppose Israel should be forced to sweep the streets. The wrath of YHWH already abides on the enemies of His Holy land, Israel!
I LOVE ISRAEL!!!
Hello Tony Pearce
As a Jew and a blogger, I welcome you to this excellent page and thank you for your continuing support for the Zionist movement and the Jewish People, which I can bear witness, spans more than three decades.
What has happened to the Church? When did Christianity undergo that bewildering metamorphosis, from being the bloodthirsty faith of inquisitions and crusades to the wimpy religion that seems to exist these days? When I see the mosques of the UK and France filled up with furious new converts to Islam all shouting ecstatically, “Allah Akhba!” I can’t help but wonder what the church is offering them as an alternative. Nothing seems sadder to me than to think that after 2,000 years of ferocious, manly murderous religious intolerance, you guys have actually decided to love your enemies and turn the other cheek, just when we want you to get nasty. Where is Richard the Lion-Heart when you need him?
Read the pages of this blog carefully and you’ll meet with a curious genre of Anglo-Jews; decent and well meaning people, who sincerely appear to believe that they shall be able to stop the terrible spread of Islamic fundamentalism in the UK with a two pronged attack consisting on the one hand of legal appeals by Jewish lawyers to her Majesty’s judiciary, and on the other hand of nasty letters to MPs and the JC.
As I’m sure you know, the Jewish community of the UK is in an appalling state losing about a thousand members a year to assimilation, delayed marriages, low birth rates and general ageing and apathy. It is all that the average Anglo Jew can do to make sure his kids marry members of the faith and that one may know enough to say kaddish for him, without having to worry about struggling for the future of Western Civilization. The question is; who is there left to fight that good fight?
Hi Daniel – I know you from the Hasmonean I think! I don’t think we need Richard the Lionheart who was also a Crusader and quite bloodthirsty, but I agree the state of the church is pretty sad. Most of the Christian leaders are terrified of being politically incorrect and so don’t want to say anything negative about Islam. So they will criticise Israel for alleged human rights abuses (mostly on the basis of Palestinian propaganda without any consideration for Israel’s security needs). But they will say nothing about Christians all over the Muslim world facing persecution. In fact there is a quite extraordinary blindness to the nature of Islam in the Christian world. One recent development I commented on in a column I have in a Christian paper is Chrislam which is a mixture of the two religions. This is what I wrote about it:
Chrislam.
Churches across the United States participated in a programme sponsored by the Interfaith Alliance to read portions of the Quran in their Sunday services on June 26th. In doing this they are planning to send ‘a message both here at home and to the Arab and Muslim world about our respect for Islam.’ The readings, supporters say, will ‘counter the anti-Muslim bigotry and negative stereotypes that have erupted throughout the country in the past year and led to misconceptions, distrust and in some cases, violence.’
This follows the signing of a letter issued by the Yale Centre for Faith and Culture claiming that world peace is dependent on Muslims and Christians recognising Allah and God in the Bible as the same God. This letter, titled ‘Loving God and Neighbour Together,’ was written in response to a signed document by 138 Muslim leaders titled ‘A Common Word Between Us and You.’ If you read the small print of the Muslim document it is really an invitation to Christians to submit to Islamic dominance, but the Yale signatories missed that point.
It is good to be friendly towards Muslim people and seek to share God’s love for them in Jesus the Messiah. It is definitely not a good thing to bring the Quran into Christian worship services. The Quran, written about 600 years after the events recorded in the New Testament, specifically denies the heart of the Christian Gospel message, that Jesus is the Saviour who died for our sins and rose again from the dead to give us eternal life. It says Jesus is a created being (Sura 3.59). (A Sura is a chapter of the Quran). It says He did not die on the cross but another man was put on the cross in his place (Sura 4:157-158). The Islamic Jesus is not God in the flesh; in fact the Quran says that anyone who believes this will be thrown into hell. (Sura 5:73).
These few verses from the Quran show us that Islam comes into the category of being ‘antichrist.’ 1 John 2.22-23 says: ‘Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ (Messiah)? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son. Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also.’ 1 John 4.2-3 says: ‘By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God, and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world.’
So denial of the Son means you do not have the Father either. Therefore Allah and the God of the Bible are not the same God. In the light of this it should come as no surprise that whenever Islam has power it always brings some degree of persecution and suppression of Christians, as well as hostility to Jewish people and Israel.’
It is a sad state of affairs. For good measure I also put in this bit about Israel:
Accept the Jewish state?
On the eve of a meeting of Quartet envoys in Brussels to review ways to restart the Israeli-Palestinian diplomatic process, Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu said told international negotiators from the Quartet (representing the UN, USA, EU and Russia) that the end to the conflict will begin with the Palestinian leaders uttering six simple words: ‘I will accept the Jewish state.’
Reaching such a conclusion has been made more difficult by the recent uniting of the two Palestinian factions of Fatah and Hamas with the aim of creating a unity government of the Palestinians. Hamas is ideologically committed to eliminating Israel. Its co-founder Mahmoud Zahar said that Hamas would never recognise Israel and that a Palestinian state based on the ‘1967 borders’ would only serve as a prelude to Israel’s destruction. Zahar has said, ‘If the Palestinian state does not encompass all of Israel the next generation will liberate the land.’
Although Fatah gives the appearance of accepting Israel’s existence at present (which it has to under the terms of the Oslo Accords), it generally denies Israel’s right to exist when communicating with its own people. Its ultimate claim is that the present territory of Israel should become Palestine. It educates its population to view the establishment of the State of Israel as an act of theft and its continued existence as a historical injustice. Its controlled TV and cultural events reinforce the message of non-recognition of Israel by depicting all of Israel as ‘Palestine’ and referring to Israeli cities, including Haifa, Jaffa, Lod, Ramle and Acre as ‘occupied’ Palestinian cities. A recent sermon from PA Minister of Religious Affairs Mahmoud Al-Habbash said that ‘Jerusalem has to return to its owners. And we are its owners.’ If not he said, ‘The term ‘war’ cannot be erased from the lexicon of this region.’ Fatah is the largest faction of the PLO, whose long-term strategy is to set up a Palestinian State on the West Bank as the first stage of the process of creating a Palestinian State from the Jordan to the Mediterranean (i.e. destroying Israel).
Sadly we cannot get much of this across to mainstream Christian media as everyone is afraid of offending the Muslims. One man I know of who is stilling fighting the fight is an Egyptian Coptic Priest called Botros Zacharia. I wrote a bit about him recently;
Coptic priest speaks to the Muslims.
The Coptic priest who for years was the bane of Islam’s existence, appears to be back in action after an unexplained year-long hiatus. The charismatic Zakaria Botros used to appear weekly on Arabic satellite television from 2005-2010 where he quoted from the Quran and exposed multiple theological flaws with Islam while simultaneously evangelising from the Bible. And he was successful. During his time on television, Zakaria reportedly garnered nearly 60 million viewers, mostly Muslims, and inspired many conversions to Christianity.
According to FrontPage, Zakaria’s self-proclaimed mission is to “attack Islam, not attack Muslims“ and to ”save them because they are deceived.” Zakaria also reportedly said “as I love Muslims, I hate Islam.” In fact, so successful was Zakaria that al-Jazeera reportedly aired a segment complaining about the priest’s “unprecedented evangelical raid” on the Muslim world, while one Sheikh Ahmad al-Qatani allegedly bemoaned the fact that as many as six million Muslims convert to Christianity each year.
Needless to say Zakaria quickly became Islam’s “Public Enemy Number 1.” His exploits caused al-Qaeda to proclaim him “one of the most wanted infidels in the world,” putting a $60 million bounty on his head. Undeterred, the priest kept going, his viewers and converts multiplying by the week. Then, in May 2010, after a particularly graphic episode on Muhammad, his shows inexplicably stopped airing. His enemies exulted. Muslim leaders, preachers, and sheikhs appeared on TV, gleefully announcing that Allah had silenced the great enemy of Islam. Yet despite Islamists’ attempts to silence the priest, Zakaria is reportedly back on satellite with his very own station Fady TV which, translated, means “Redeemer TV.” The channel is reportedly for those “searching for the truth.” Zakaria’s first episode of his new show, “Knowledge of the Truth,” saw a near endless stream of viewers, mostly Muslims, calling in to express how much they had missed the evangelist.
There have also been some very courageous attempts to reach the Iranians with quite a bit of success. We had someone speak at our fellowship about how many young people in Iran are completely sick of Islam and many are becoming believing Christians (although still only a minority persecuted movement). We have had an Iranian Christian group meeting at our church which actually had to move on because they became to big for our premises.
Anyway we battle on. Unfortunately I have been laid up in hospital with a tumour in the bowel which knocked me out for most of the first six months of the year. I am not able to do all I would like to now but I am now trying to get back to a bit of action. We still pray for Israel and her protection and blessing from the Lord.
Tony Pearce
Hi Tony,
Yes, I was a pupil in Hasmonean, however, I don not recall ever having the honor of being taught by you. I dare say, if I had, you might remember me more vividly. I was not the school’s best behaved student.
I think you may have missed my point about Richard the Lion-Heart. You remind me that he was a Crusader, and while I have no wish personally to be crusaded, I think that may be just what the UK needs at the moment. Any chance?
I hold no position regarding the theological dispute you present between various factions of your church and Islam and no specific information as to whether or how any particular Jew was crucified 2,000 years ago. As you know, many scores were, they were all my brothers, and to my mind the death of each one was equally tragic. They were, of course, all sons of G-d, as indeed are we. By chance, we shall be reading in this Saturday’s Torah reading:
“You are the sons of the Lord your G-d. Do not cut yourselves or shave the front of your heads for the dead..”
Deuteronomy 14:1
I wish you a speedy recovery and the very best of health.
Daniel
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OT: has anyone seen – with a sick-bag in hand – a ‘comedian and activist’ called Mark Thomas and his touring show about ‘Israel’s illegal separation barrier’?
Hi Leah,
How delightful to see that you are determined no longer to limit your ignorance to matters of politics, Bible studies, theology and international relations, but, expanding your horizons you are now able to demonstrate a not unimpressive philistinism in the field of character profiling too. Who knows where future endeavors may lead you – the mind boggles.
My life is an open book; I was born in England and immigrated to Israel at the age of 18. You see Leah, we really are opposites in almost every way.
The above is a response to a since deleted claim by Leah/Yoni that I am not, in fact English. By itself it looks a little daft.
tsk tsk tsk
you are English?
I thought you were first and foremost Israeli – maybe you retain your British citizenship, maybe English is the language you were born into
but just that you are English ????????????
Have you seen someone about this idiotic delusion that I am ‘Yoni’? I suggest you do so posthaste.
Yes, we are opposites: you are an ignorant, pompous, self-important bully.
If you were, indeed, born in England and lived here for the next 18 years, then you are illiterate as well.
Just in case anyone wanted to “understand” or make excuses for the Iranian regime. They are fond of saying that the west “misinterprets” Ahmadinejad’s speeches. Well hear it is from the iranian press
http://www.presstv.ir/detail/195852.html
as some one eles said, “this is not going to end nicely”……………..I would not want to take on Israel….and I feel sorry for anyone who does.
I’m appalled at the video above with smug woman harrassing the shopkeeper. I used to live on Green Street. It’s really another world now. More appalling were the craven police. They weren’t interested in the fact that the shopkeeper had to call them out because of her hectoring behaviour but were far more believing in her ‘right to protest’ and to hand out libellous leaflets and spout as many lies and distortions and slanders as she wanted. We British Jews tend to live in our own little ‘ghettos’ and, on the whole, are quite oblivious to what is the reality of life in the UK for Jews in 2011. The good days are in the past. It’s time to leave.
Hi Ros,
On Friday a student gave me a new date he had picked that morning and I blessed:
“Blessed are You, our G-d, Lord, King of the Universe, who has granted us life, sustained us and enabled us to reach this moment.” – It was delicious.
So what shall I bless after reading your posting? Do you have any idea how long we have waited to hear those words? Of course you do. You are a historian. We have waited 2,000 years to hear you say, “It is time to leave.”
“Return, O Israel, to the Lord your G-d.Your sins have been your downfall!Take words with you and return to the Lord.”
Nothing will be easy, things that are truly worthwhile rarely are. They’ll be moments of anger and frustration and disappointment – but return anyway. You’ve researched history and written about it. The time has come to make history and here is where we do that – so return!
Shavua tov,
In Paris too:
Jourrnée Al Qods 26 Aout 2011 à Paris يوم القدس
Daniel (Marks),
Thank you for that. To an extent I have already ‘made aliyah,’ as I spend about half the year in Tel Aviv. I would spend the rest but my other half can’t quite get there yet… Anyway. I have the best!
Ros
Has anybody watched The Daniel Project yet? A documentary whose research appears to show that Bible prophecy clearly states who the land belongs to, the diaspora and the regathering and the huge rise in antiSemitism. It has been shown on TV in many countries but apparently it is too controversial for both the BBC and ch4 in the UK(!)
See http://www.thedanielproject.tv
as to the “holed up” language – I think Michael and Daniel are right to protest but for another reason
If I were an enemy and the one harassed by me would publish his distress I would gloat.
I think Churchill gave one his immortal speeches after the disaster of Dunkirk and it can’t have left the “enemy” anything to gloat on.
should be an additional reason instead of for another
Yeshua Messiah will come to liberate his people!!
Regarding the Daniel Project for anyone interested and living in London NW11 we will be showing the Daniel Project at The Bridge, 54, Bridge Lane, NW11 0EH on Wednesday 28 September at 8pm. Also have a speaker from Israel Chuck Cohen on subject ‘Israel and the Shaking of the Nations’ on Sunday 4 September at 6.30pm. Gives the answer to Daniel Marks about who is going to come to sort it all out. Yeshua the Messiah!
I live on Bridge Lane. I might come.
PS. Re Steve: what I wrote was not meant to suggest that he is not an ignoramus. Given the violent events in the UK over the past few years (and no, 7/7 was not committed by Jews or Anglicans, and it wasn’t a Sikh peer who threatened parliament), the explicit targets of the demo have every right to feel that criminal incitement to murder them was indeed committed.
Whilst David Beunis seems to see Messiah as being Y’s family name, as in, “Yeshua Messiah…” Tony Pearce sees messiah as a proper noun that deserves to be capitalized: “Yeshua the Messiah…”
As a youngster I was occasionally approached by well meaning Christians wishing to assure me that Jesus loved me and suggesting I might accept him as my personal savior, but they had misjudged their punter and the love of a Swedish looking bearded gentleman with a thorny crown was hardly the kind of love I was in search of. I developed several one liners such as saying that I might be a Christian but wished to live in Northern Ireland, so should I become a protestant and kill Catholics or a Catholic and kill Protestants?
Another time after asking an enthusiastic missionary to explain to me the wonders of the Immaculate Conception I asked him whether he would believe that story if his daughter came home knocked up, and he freely admitted that he wouldn’t. After that, there seemed little left to debate.
My wife teaches in the Anglican International School Jerusalem where several of the teachers seem to run a very lazy kind of mission. Several have come round for meals and I’ve suggested that they may be taking money in return for very slim pickings. They assure me that only Israeli law prevents them from doing much more, but I’m skeptical. It seems to me that the religion has lost much of it’s self confidence and many good Christians feel that they have their backs up against the wall, which may be advisable in the light of recent revelations regarding….well…you know what.
That having been said, I am flattered to have your movie named after me and expect the usual 10%. Who was it that said that Jesus saves but Moses invests?
Sheikha Booth calls on Israel’s neighbours to take Jerusalem. Perhaps she should learn some facts from Prof Sherman:
I do not think words exist which can help against this Nazi-like hatred.
Hatred of fascists who have made a tremendous mess of governing all their
own countries, almost 60 in number (Islamic countries) and have only one problem. A Jewish State full of Jews exists. They must attack, they must, brothers, give them of that red stuff, that red stuff, Jewish blood. Otherwise they might go crazy. They are crazy now? No. Just fascists.
It is no laughing matter. If there would not be this tiny country of Israel a holocaust would already be upon us. G’d protect that tiny country. May it become great and greater yet.
Can anything be done? In the end there won’t be any choice. What was done to Germany to end the WWII has to be done against those Fascists. They have to be fought, there is no other choice.
HELLO wIESJE BY YOUR NAME I THINK YOU ARE FROM HOLLAND. I WAS HOLED UP IN AN ATTIC FOR THREE YEARS HIDING FROM NAZIS IN WW11. THE CANCER IS AGAIN WITH US BUT THANK GOD WE NOW HAVE ISRAEL EVERYTHING POSSIBLE MUST BE DONE TO PRESERVE THAT TINY COUNTRY GOD BLESS
Michael Goldman it is about time you read the Bible.
Hi Jan,
Goldman’s in Eilat for a few days with Iris and the kids. I’ll give him a bell and tell him to read when he gets back. Anything particular in mind?
Hi Jan
It most certainly is!
He’s reading Jan, it’s a miracle, but he’s reading. He’s reading like he’s never read before. He’s reading like no man has ever read. He’s reading with a passion like an old man who hasn’t seen the Sun in a decade and is searching for page three. He’s reading like a man sentenced to death reads the result of his appeal. Nobody can remember such reading, Jan, and it’s all because of you.
But he needs guidance, Jan. The Bible is a big book and he reads as much as he can, more than you could dream, but tell him what to read, Jan. Tell him where. At least, tell him which book of the Bible. It’s a big book.
Thanks Jan.
Ah in that sense I am a sorry loser too – way too prone to lose patience for my own good and very embarrassing especially after I have tried really hard to impress people with myself as being capable of lady-like behaviour.
Hi Jan
Ignore Daniel, he’s a little excited. but my curiosity has got the better of me.
What on earth did you mean by your comment?
Bible Reading
It truly pains me to see people as ignorant as these. They accuse Israel of performing acts against humanity, where what they fail to realise is that by giving violent and hateful banners to young impressional children, they are breaking the child’s fundemental human rights. This is shameful
Excellent turn out tonight in front of the Albert Hall. The haters turned their attention to the ISO but we outnumbered them 3 to 1 at least .
Well done Harvey et al!!
Three to one is just right according to IDF doctrine.
Typical. Look at these pro-Zionists sheep, flocking to save the shepherd and crying foul play. Israel is an aggressive expansionist and needs to stop occupying land that belongs to others. It’s really quite a simple concept.
No justice, no peace.
Terry
You need to read something other than media headlines or PSC propaganda – we all know what propaganda did in 1939.
“Israel is an aggressive expansionist and needs to stop occupying land that belongs to others. It’s really quite a simple concept”
To the simple-minded like you, maybe.
Pray tell us who the land belongs to, dearie.
Oh, and while you are at it: who started the 1948, 1967 and 1973 wars, who is shelling whom from Gaza, what the Hamas charter says, and therefore who really is aggressively expansionist.
Hi Richard
Please tell us here in Israel what the local take is of the Palestinian disruption of last night’s Prom concert which was aired live on Radio 3, then taken off. Was this an own goal or is their sympathy for their cause in the media?
I think Silke is showing some totalitarian instincts in her discussion of freedom of speech. Jews and Zionists can also be victim of arbitrary, ideological hate-speech laws. See Mark Steyn and Ezra Levant. What makes her think that censorship isn’t a double-edged sword that can’t be used by Jew-haters? It wasn’t hate-speech
that produced the Holocaust, but a prohibition of dissent. We need more speech to counter anti-Semitism, not less.
that is a new one to me that it wasn’t hate speech that produced the Holocaust – and a real cute one and the “prohibition of decent” was at least in the getting ready for 1933 done by thugs not by dissent being prohibited.
Fresh up on your history books Michael
Silke
you and I have clearly not read the same Haffner book. Try “Defying Hitler”. I don’t recall thugs causing the mollification of all opposition. Maybe you are saying that the establishment and thugs are one and the same. There wasn’t a civil war or revolution headed by thugs that brought the Nazis to power, but the simple democracy. He utilised the doctrines of free speach etc then once in power brokered alliances with the opposition in return for fat favours and thereby gained the power to introduce legally and through parliament laws against Jews. Those political alliances sucked in politicians from across the spectrum including the Left. It is my understanding that is the reason Haffner left Germany. A lawyer who witnesed the legal process being politicised with a view to disenfranchising Jews and only Jews. A lawyer with ethics and a conscience who didn’t run away from thugs but from an establishment that by this stage was united across the spectrum from Left to Right, an establishment that used the natural greed of man to stoke the inbred Jew hatred embibed over millennia in mother’s milk. The only thugs were the people of Germany who did not defy Hitler and there were not many of them.
Sharon
your Defying Hitler and my Geschichte eines Deutschen seem not to be the same book.
1. a major reason why Haffner left Germany was that his finacé was Jewish
2. it is in exactly that book that he laments that the Hitler resisting left couldn’t get its act together i.e. unify against the Nazis. Whether they started the dying before or after 1933 I don’t know but very definitely there were SA-troopers breaking up political assemblies of those they didn’t like and beating them up and the police more or less helpless or unhelpful.
3. the NSDAP never got more votes in elections than about 35 %, very large chunk but you still need allies. In the last one before Hitler was made chancellor they had even seen a decline but then people like von Papen wanted to have him in power because they thought they were clever enough to put them in front of their nationalistic kind of old Bismarckian Juncker glory revival cart.
4. Though the popular vote gave Hitler a lot of his clout in the end it was the elite and amongst it lots of aristocracy who helped him into the saddle. (It wasn’t lower class ladies who taught him manners in their salons in Munich in the 20s. He sported a riding whip then and must have been rather good looking. I’d love to know whether it was what he implied with that riding whip that made them so keen on grooming him.)
I can’t tell how much of this I know from Haffner’s book exclusively. I have read and heard lots of other stuff by him (he was a constant on German TV and/or radio – once in a while you may still catch him on radio – when I was young – he got quite on my nerves then with his constant promotion of Prussian virtues, so much so that I only recently learn a bit that there indeed have been some virtues by the standards of the time. BTW he thought that Nuremberg trial was a mistake. As best I remember it was because it created the image of all being equally guilty thus creating more solidarity with the perpetrators than would otherwise have been the case – who’s to know).
But I assure you that the fact on how much the “elite” was infatuated with Hitler was kept from popular knowledge in Germany a long long time and in a way still is, i.e. not promoted in the same way. And if so they merit to be scrutinised as individuals while we lower downs are getting the more summary treatment. (where is the book on what the clerks did day in day out at the RSHA, I am referring to the level below those Yaacov Lozowick apparently investigated in Hitler’s Bureaucrats)
We were and still are always only shown the enraptured faces of the masses, never told about the academics who lectured on Utopia within reach. Of course the majority of those who did the actual killing were from the “masses” so it was easy to tone down on what the “elite” had been for. And maybe it was for the best because otherwise we might not have had enough knowledgeable personnel to run the country.
I love to chat and long before the 68ers showed up “we” had learned to read the signals of who had been one of “them”. “We” didn’t confront, maybe we should have, but I for one to this day don’t know how, since I see no use in hurling abuse at them because I’d rather know why, how come, it is so baffling, so absurd, so non-sensical.
And I can tell you from these chats that though I haven’t kept a spread-sheet I have found more left-overs from them among academics and their assistants (i.e. my own kind) than among plumbers and masons etc. As to the lower down rung I wouldn’t know since I haven’t met them in any numbers.
addition:
I personally have no objection to the KollektivSchuld= collective guilt view but there are lots of others who think it creates the opposite of what it wants. I am also all in favour to encourage my generation i.e. first one after to be very distrustful of their own view points because by necessity having grown up amongst “them” “we” must have imbibed a lot of bad ethics and world views.
And most emphatically I don’t share the (world-wide?) enthusiasm for the current German prowess in memory culture while showing way too seldom solidarity with the threatened living ones i.e. Israelis.
As best I remember Sebastian Haffner argued (elsewhere?) that the collective guilt idea was a bad one, see above, another one is Fredrick Forsyth in the Odessa File where I wonder on how much he is voicing Wiesenthal on it.
I have only read Defying Hitler and know little of Haffner as a pundit. I do know though about growing up in a racist society. As a child one is ignorant and impotent, but then as an adult one has to make decisions – get involved, or at least move away so that you do not remain intrinsic to the success of such a regime. That is why I admired Haffner – not only because he married a Jew, as he would not have done so had he been subject to Jew hatred, and he would not have published that book that describes so well how he establishment was mollified, but because he removed himself from a machine of death he as an individual could not combat but also could not live with.
I am not in favour of collective guilt, but I still struggle with understanding how a sophisticated people who produced many accomplished artists and scientists could have devised a modern state of the art industrial complex whose only byproduct was the bones of dead Jews! It seems Haffner struggled as well and made it his life’s mission to try and understand the ununderstandable!
And I fear it is happening again with Israel being the Jew that by and large is tacitly sitting by as rockets explode amongst them. Once again the Jew is the target and doesn’t really know what to make of this hatred that spews out of the nostrils of what are seemingly ordinary people. After all Booth was a nobody until her sister gave her a hike into celebrity. And there are many such nobodies who rise on the wave of this Jew hatred! And they come from the Right and they come from the Left despite the ostensible disparity in the ideologies – a commonality that binds them in the depth of their beings!
Yes the question of why and how.
Haffner though he had at first financially a terrible time in the UK could move away, but how could the ordinary farmer or worker do the same. How could I have done?
On a personal level my WW1 veteran grandfather used to eulogize his Jewish co-soldiers “Feine Kerle” and hated the Austrians “Kamerad Schnürstiefel” but found it highly amusing even after he “knew” that his sister had disturbed her neighbour’s Laubhüttenfest in Hamburg by throwing chestnuts down on their leave hut in the court yard. And that even though he would insist that I behave in a Catholic church while he always continued Catholics to be highly suspicious people.
My mother in the 50s ululated whenever my favourite author showed up in TV “oh watt’n Judd” because of his nose (he had a big one but so did lots of other people I knew – very confusing it was) but had no problem befriending the German-Latin American-German mothers of the boys in my clique, going regularly on vacation with one of them.
She remained convinced till the end of her life that her home state Schleswig-Holstein had been free of it, that Nazism and denunciations were exclusively a southern thing. Not true by any margin. For example the city of Eutin was one of their hotbeds housing I think one of their elite military units. Lots of the aristocratic families in the region were ardent Nazis and Admiral Dönitz made his last stand on the Danish border in Flensburg, executing deserters till the last minute.
Yaacov Lozowick once remarked that we were probably the least anti-semitic of the countries involved but nonetheless we were the ones who thought up the whole murderous enterprise.
And these days Günter Grass comes up in Haaretz with a figure of 6 million PoW killed by the Soviets. There is an outcry of historians over German newspapers about it with the true figures and circumstances of death (more than a million lots due to circumstances which were the same for the local population). But why this by now almost magical figure of 6 million. He of all people should know better, he has no excuse of lack of knowledge whatsoever and so it goes on and on.
As far as my personal encounters are of significance I’d say Jew-hatred isn’t quite it at least not for the majority. It is more a deeply held conviction that “Jews don’t bleed like us.”
That so many of the elite were singing the Nazis’ tune must have convinced lots of simple folks to follow their lead (priests and pastors too). Still in the 90s in a small town in Hessia when the local Fürstin would enter a shop the shop owner and her assistants would immediately stop talking to me and attend to her. I spoke to her once, it is unlikely that she demanded that kind of behaviour but I think nothing could have persuaded the shop-owner to handle it any differently. One of my neighbours, a very intelligent farmer, would take the word of the white-coated BASF-Dr. as gospel. weird and totally incomprehensible.
BTW my own father saved Heine’s collected works from the book burning pile (nothing happened to him) but he volunteered for the army before he was due to be drafted (sons of WW1 dead were delayed) by saying he had to defend wife and child.
I think Defying Germany was published posthumously. We were told at the time that it was found amongst his papers. I have still to read “Germany Jekyll & Hyde” by Haffner. Somewhere I read that Churchill demanded that all of his staff? read that one.
As far as my personal encounters are of significance I’d say Jew-hatred isn’t quite it at least not for the majority. It is more a deeply held conviction that “Jews don’t bleed like us.”
So explain the difference – hate or don’t bleed like us – if you’re Jewish it feels the same – ostracized, disregarded, not required, superfluous – Glenn Beck asked a survivor in this current climate of Jew hatred what it feels like to be a Jew as he said he could not perceive such a feeling not being Jewish himself. Well how can I answer that one – no he cannot ever perceive the feeling of being hated not because you are evil, not because you are a bad person, a crook, a murderer, a molester, a thief, a wife/husband beater, a child abuser – no just for being a person with a history that has survived more than any other in the entire history of the world. And the fact that even so many years after the war people can believe it didn’t happen under their own noses shows the contemptuous disregard they have of Jews as living people who do bleed just the same.
“The only thugs were the people of Germany who did not defy Hitler”
So the Brownshirts weren’t thugs? That’s a new one.
The Brownshirts were part of Hitler’s political machine – some 3 million of them even before he came to power. I would say that forms a substantial part of ordinary German people. Hitler was elected to government when his antics were already well known in Germany as these Brownshirt troops of his were already plundering and terrorizing the nation and yet he was appointed to head the coalition government. He could not have been appointed unless there was agreement amongst all sections in government – maybe a few dissenters, but not sufficient to block his promotion. Once there he was allowed to combine the Chancellorship and Presidency and QED.
The silence of the German people was the rock behind Hitler’s growth and his ability to pass laws with impunity against the Jews. Very few stood up to him. Now I understand how difficult it is to stand alone in a crowd. Its happening again today which is why Richard writes this blog and hopefully why the contributors read and comment. It is why so very few come out in support of the efforts of those to bring truth and reality to the fore. We see it in the BBC in a tacit subliminal way and in Press TV with its overt propaganda machine peopled by the likes of Booth and other prominent UK journalists. Most evidently we see it amongst the Left wing so called intelligentsia who convolutedly prize themselves as lovers of justice and freedom, sprouting socialist dogma, and yet they support Islamo-fascism, probably the most right wing imperialistic ideology the world as seen to date. We find it in the legal establishment with many eminent lawyers and judges overtly supporting the enemies not only of Israel, but of true liberty and freedom. We find it amongst democratically elected members of parliament across the West.
The common link between this curious alliance is obvious – an unfathomable Jew hatred that blinds them as to the true enemy, not only of Israel, but of democracy and freedom and the ethics and principles of the Judeo-Christian ethic based in the 10 Commandments upon which we in the West have forged our political base.
The problem is that Democracy has many flaws, not least providing a system based on freedom for all, that allows people like Hitler to rally the masses and be elected to power. Democratic governments in their attempt to ensure “never again” pass laws to prevent radicals rising in such a way. The problem is that the law providers and the law keepers are so tainted by the religion of peace that they fail to see the coming storm. That is why Booth can call for an attack on Israel with impunity even though a call to war is illegal under UK law. It is why the BDS and PSC can roam our streets of London calling for the return of Khyber draped in flags emblazoned with guns and nobody arrests them. That is why the single Israeli flag bearer was removed from the Proms on Thursday night when idiotically disguised well known Jew haters were allowed into disrupt the concert.
So yes, the only thugs are those who remain silent.
I assume that you 3 million is members of the NSDAP, the SA itself had lots of members but wasn’t even close.
Das Anwachsen der SA wurde durch Wirtschaftskrise und Wahlerfolge der NSDAP begünstigt. 1930 hatte die SA zeitweise 60.000 bis 80.000 Mitglieder und 1932 bereits etwa 220.000 eingetragene Mitglieder.
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sturmabteilung
Ende 1932 1.200.000
Ende 1933 3.900.000
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationalsozialistische_Deutsche_Arbeiterpartei#Mitgliedszahlen.
the only thugs are those who remain silent.
I hope none of us will have ever get scared witless enough to become a thug by your definition. One of Theodor Eschenburg’s friends was arrested and came back having lost some teeth and followed the order to keep silent about what happened to him while he was away. A thug?
And his friends who according to Eschenburg’s memoir stayed silent also. All thugs? Who do you call then those who did the intimidating?
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodor_Eschenburg
“Hitler was elected to government when his antics were already well known in Germany as these Brownshirt troops of his were already plundering and terrorizing the nation”
Sounds remarkably like thugs to me.
“Once there he was allowed to combine the Chancellorship and Presidency and QED. ”
There is no QED about it. You haven’t shown that the Brownshirts weren’t thugs. Maybe you don’t know what the word ‘thug’ means.
“So yes, the only thugs are those who remain silent.”
That’s just plain nonsense. The ones who were plundering and terrorizing the nation were thugs by any sane definition of the word ‘thugs’.
“When Ernst Roehm left Germany to work in Bolivia in 1925, Heinrich Himmler took over the leadership of the SA. However, in 1931 Hitler recalled Roehm to Germany and asked him to head the SA. In just over a year Roehm expanded it from 70,000 to 170,000 members. By 1934 the SA had grown to 4,500,000 men.”
http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/GERsa.htm
It is possible that figures are massaged – I didn’t do a great research and write mostly from memory of my own reading over the years.
There are many debates about Hitler and how he managed to control the entire nation. My only response to you now is that I hope that faced with a similar situation I would have the courage to stand up and be counted. Currently I find the world situation dire and if we are governed under Sharia law which seems increasingly likely in Europe, we will all be faced with those issues – to submit or face the alternative. I hope I will be sufficiently brave to be true to who I believe I am.
I can’t comment on how others reacted under those circumstances. That’s their choice, their lives and their situation. I feel though that to sniff the air and smell the smoke of burning bodies day by day and remain silent…well…I can’t imagine doing that.
I just checked the figure because it sounded so unlikely – it was a privilege to be allowed in. There even were attempts to limit NSDAP membership. According to Wikipedia by the party’s own statistics it had 849.009 members when Hitler came into power. By the end of the war there were 7.5 million of them – that is a much more plausible and much more distressing figure if one thinks about it. I guess one reason would be that party members were given preference when the loot was distributed.
And they all “knew nothing” including a bunch of most prominent post-war or even during war anti-Nazis who reminisced about their school years in a book in the 70s, Joachim Fest whose father had chosen loss of office over working for the regime and who wrote a much lauded Hitler biography and wrote the script for the Downfall movie.
It is the ongoing post-war hypocrisy that gets me every time. There Haffner was a laudable exception.
If I had been involved, I might have been a clerk at the RSHA paying invoices to the Reichsbahn for the transports. What would I have done? What could I have done?
I didn’t ask the last two questions to exculpate anyone. I ask them to find out what I could do today to prevent Hisbollah flags from being shown during demos in Berlin.
It seems that the authorities don’t pay attention to Hezbollah flags in our streets either and neither do they understand the call for the return of Khyber – or they say they don’t. What do I do – I write to people – MP’s, journalists etc – hoping that one of them might just take he time to read up a little on the flags, the chanting, the Koran, Hamas Charter etc. I stand in the street and demonstrate, I lobby, I wave the Israeli flag with pride. And I try to communicate to people that they need to read source material, not the dogma and propaganda that is spewed out by ignoramuses infected by their own spin.
Unfortunately we live now in a world that runs on spin and lies – our last Labour government is testimony to that – as it came out today that the Blair government was hand in hand with Qaddafi to the extent of handing over Libyan dissenters to him to be tortured and murdered. So the role models we have are less than honest and upright and we have to stand against such behaviour as well. Its a big task and I applaud you for joining in and trying to do the right thing. Above all, all of us who understand the dangers of deceit and lies must stand apart from any “wing” in a political sense as none are pure and devoid of the disease ideology and isms!
Silke
You asked what to do re the flags in Berlin. They are a symbol of something bigger than the few demonstrators. Geert Wilders spoke in Germany today – read that speech on the link below.
http://www.pi-news.org/2011/09/speech-of-geert-wilders-in-berlin-932011/#more-4612
Stop being ashamed of Germany.
that is – ah the irony of it – what Ahmadinejad has been saying in a Der Spiegel interview also and btw it is not true that Merkel is in favour of Turkey joining the EU. She has always been against it, she has always said that she is willing to offer Turkey a special relationship (whatever that means) but no membership and if she had changed her mind it would have been big news.
Even the most outspoken pro-Israel-bloggers are weary of PI-News. I don’t read the site myself, so I don’t know first-hand what they object to.
PS: you (almost) make me regret that I live in the middle of (beautiful) nowhere.
Maybe you should start to read PI news – Geert Wilders is one of the most honest people in today’s climate. He is reminiscent of Churchill – speaks out regardless of those who try to defame him as he knows what is true. History will show this as it did with Churchill.
I make it policy to read all those materials that people defame – there is a reason why they jump on a bandwagon and it is never because they bothered to find out for themselves. So I am not interested in the expression “even the most….agrees/are weary of ….”etc. I need to read it all and make up my own mind.
If you live i the middle of a beautiful nowhere you are very lucky indeed!
Sharon
I read people I trust to have kept their decency intact. The older I get the more I like that at least partially insufferable Mr. Knightley in Jane Austen’s Emma.
I haven’t followed Wilders closely and as long as he is a friend of Israel he is fine by me, but Sarrazin and the enthusiasm for him of people who are normally capable of sound judgment gives me the creeps.
I object to Sarrazin very much not only because of how he promoted his book but also about his ridiculing the Bundesbank on radio while still in office.
As to exposing Muslim shenanigans there is a man named Heinz Buschkovsky who is a mayor of a Berlin hotspot part of town. He is a member of the SPD as Sarrazin is also. I may not go as far as vote for his preferred party but I sure listen closely to whatever I can hear Buschkovsky say. He is close to a judge for juveniles in Berlin Kirsten Heisig wrote a book about that experience and how to correct what goes wrong. But she didn’t live to promote her book properly (she committed suicide).
Let’s hope that the new Berlin party becomes something solid and lets hope that they get better at briefing Wilders on Merkel’s stand on Turkey.
BTW I think we can reconcile the SA-figures of “your” site and Wikipedia. Probably they meant applications for membership not real membership.
During my first weeks of living where I spent my old age pension I saw a very neatly turned out young man on the street who had a swastika tattooed on his neck. Subsequently I learned that there is nothing one can do about it. If one pulls him in he will claim that it must have happened while he was unconscious from drink. Today they vote in Merkel’s home state, let’s hope that the Neo-Nazis will do not too well and that the Eastern Left will not get infected by the anti-semitism so fashionable in its Western part.
Question to the Freedom of Expression over all on this blog:
Isn’t this an outrage? Why is there no support for the young man? Why does he seem to be content with just an apology? Isn’t the Saggy Pants Minority entitled to equal rights?
Green Day’s Billie Joe Armstrong Ejected From Flight Due To Saggy Pants
http://www.etidbits.com/green-days-billie-joe-armstrong-ejected-from-flight-saggy-pants=8465
Everyone knows the truth. One just has to look at the situation in the arab world to know that who and what they stand for.No point in going over it again and again. Israel can and will defend itself as it knows how. Never fear! My issue is with Lauren Booth.. She sounds very much like a woman scorned. Me thinks she has been loved and left by an Israeli boy….and now she wants all Israelis gone. That is the only logical explanation plus the odd rumour.. Let’s hope she manages to find herself a good Arab replacement, and calms down. Love does that to a woman!!!
Hi Daniel Marks
Interested to know your wife teaches at the Anglican School Jerusalem. I once applied for a job there (about 1985 I think) but did not get it. Pity really.
I guess I don’t need to tell you that Jesus is not a bearded Swedish gentleman with a thorny crown but would have been quite at home in your part of the world.
About the Immaculate Conception / Virgin Birth, I did an article on this which you will find at http://messiahfactor.com/page30.html if you are interested.
Afraid I did not produce the Daniel Project movie so can’t offer you any royalties. You could read the book though (Daniel ha navi I mean). Might get blessed and informed about some coming events, if not get any royalties.
Tony Pearce
Reapply if you’re still interested Tony. She is the director of language studies, so I might be able to pull a few strings. You’d have to forget a lot of the pedagogical methodology that you witnessed at Hasmonean, especially that involving blunt objects.
I’m shocked to discover that Jesus was not Swedish-looking. I have always pictured him a kind of late 70s version of Bjorn Borg, but with far less dress sense. Regarding the Immaculate Conception, I’ll happily read your article. I assume they’ll be no Hollywood version in the near future, though a movie about not having sex would certainly be a first and is an idea to consider. I have a mate called Yossi whose area of expertise that is, and would be happy to work as an on-site consultant.
I’m not overly optimistic about those royalties. I’ve known many prophets and they all seem more interested in profit-making than prophesying.
Okay, remember that Bjorn loves you,
Daniel
Sounds a good idea. My wife fancies a year or two in Jerusalem. I’ll get a good reference from Rabbi Roburg. Failing that Osher Badiel. My age might be a bit against me though – will be picking up the state pension in a couple of months.
About the royalties – Daniel ha navi was pretty uncorruptible, although he had a good way with the kings of Babylon and Persia. Unlike modern prophets he refused Belshazzar’s offer of purple and gold (see Daniel 5.17). So probably not much profit from that quarter. I could get you the DVD if you like though.
I don’t think the Immaculate Conception concept totally rules out sex in our movie, it must be possible to have an Immaculate Conception on Monday and on Tuesday be at it like a rabbit.
Tony, do you feel that this in any way negates dogma?
in my youth we were warned that one might get pregnant from swimming in a pool if a man had done you know what in it.
Would that qualify as Immaculate Conception even if one had been indecently or not at all clothed while the “miracle” happened?
Hi Tony,
Ignore Goldman, he’s a bit of a cynic.
I read your excellent article and my funny bone was well tickled by your attempt to argue that having sex doesn’t necessarily preclude the possibility of remaining a betula. There are a few young ladies I teach who might take to that philosophy quite readily – not to mention the satisfaction it could afford their gentlemen friends.
Perhaps we have finally found your selling point for Christianity! All may not be lost.
Regards from the Holy Land
Daniel (the other one)
Daniel – the difference is that the modern Hebrew word betulla does exclusively mean virgin but my point was that this does not appear to be the case in the use of the word in the Tenach – see my examples in the article you read.
Regarding the Immaculate Conception – this is in fact a Roman Catholic dogma which I do not accept. They teach that Mary (not Jesus) was conceived immaculately and therefore without sin. I don’t believe this but I do believe in the Virgin Birth of Jesus as prophesied in Isaiah 7.14 and implied in Isaiah 9.6-7 which says that the child to be born would also be ‘El Gibbor’ – mighty God. The reason for the virgin birth according to the Gospels is that Jesus was ‘Im anu el’ – God with us and that He had to be born in this supernatural way in order to be both divine and human and without sin. This raises another issue we have with rabbinic teaching – Do the Prophets see the Messiah coming as a great man or a divine person? There are a number of reasons why the ‘divine person’ argument lines up with the scriptures – see my article at http://messiahfactor.com/page29.html
Meanwhile we continue to stand for Israel and against those who seek the destruction of the Jewish state. For reasons for this see http://messiahfactor.com/page38.html and http://messiahfactor.com/page41.html
Tony
God bless the state of Israel, and no matter what most think here. Israel will survive all of your anticts and will always win as they always do!
I know its not very popular to be Pro israel here, but live with it. We are the only democracy there and the only land with law and order, The only land where a woman has rights, and palwestineans live in peace unlike they were murdered in Jordan for hundreds of years.
Of course this comment wont be published because i support Israel, but thats the truth and you cant handle it
have a great life y’all
What exactly are you on? Can I have some of that? This is a PRO-Israeli site.
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Reading the responses – You’re all blind fools. This has nothing to do with ‘Nations’ or ‘States’. Don’t you realise that to the Muslims we are ALL ‘infidels’? Read the Koran.
They’re just starting on the Jews / Israelis because they realise they’re an easy target; they know that, just as in the past, the rest of the world won’t give a damn! They’ll believe and support the nonsensical lies going around about the ‘poor Palestinians’ who the rest of the Arab world has done absolutely nothing to assist in any way.
Once they get rid of the Israelis with their sophisticated defences they can start on the rest of us.
Just look at what they do to any of their own people who don’t hold radical beliefs – slaughter them by the thousands!
And those of us ‘infidels’ who later try to speak out against them will also be slaughtered. There will be no ‘Freedom of Speech’ allowed by people who won’t even let their women drive, or reveal more of their bodies than their eyes. I’m really not looking forward to wearing a burkah!
“You’re all blind fools….”
I resent that. I don’t mind being blind or a fool, but why both? If I’m blind to the truth, why can’t I be an intelligent blind man? If I’m a fool and can’t understand simple truths, why do I need to be blind as well.
Finally, why all of us? I’ll concede being a blind fool, but is everyone in the world one too? Or just everyone on this excellent blog?
Could it be, Julia, that there’s only one fool on this blog and she’s not blind at all?
Regarding the remainder of your comment, you seem to have good intentions, but don’t write us off to quickly, “Once they get rid of the Israelis with their sophisticated defences…”. We survived worse than them before we had sophisticated defences, and please G-d, we’ll be fine.
Finally, regarding you ladies’ wish to “reveal more of their bodies…” come and hang out in Tel Aviv or Eilat for a few weeks. We have no burkahs (just berks) and you can let it all hang out.
Regarding your comment: “We survived worse than them before we had sophisticated defences, and please G-d, we’ll be fine.”
Yes, I can see that – in London, Paris, The Netherlands – not to mention New York, of which we’ve all had a recent reminder.
“There are none so blind as those who will not see.” ~ Jeremiah Chapter 5: verse 21.
I forgot to mention – May I respectfully suggest that all those herein who believe the “Jews drove the Arabs out of Palestine” get hold of the Paul Newman (?) film, ‘EXODUS’, and suggest your like-minded friends do the same. At the end of the film you will see actual footage of Israel’s first Prime Minister speaking when the United Nations granted Israel statehood. It’s a long time since I’ve watched it, but as I recall he made his desires for the future perfectly clear.
Julia, are you on the right blog? Only a few passing trolls and antisemites claim that the “Jews drove the Arabs out of Palestine”. Most here are staunch supporters of Israel, and know the historical truth quite well.
Hi Julia,
When I said:“We survived worse than them before we had sophisticated defences, and please G-d, we’ll be fine.”
I didn’t mean to imply that Israel has sole responsibility of the security arrangements in London, Paris, The Netherlands (not to mention New York).
I guess we’re on the same side Julia, so I hope you won’t take offense when I say that while I do not believe that for the most part “Jews drove the Arabs out of..” Israel Palestine”, the excellent Exodus is hardly an irrefutable historical document – though it’s a damn good film.