Shlomo Sand at SOAS: Israel is “a shitty nation” and “the most racist society in the world”.

Shlomo Sand in full flow at SOAS last night.

Shlomo Sand in full flow at SOAS last night.

Last night Tel Aviv University history professor Shlomo Sand referred to Israel as a “shitty nation” (clip 1). He called Israel “the most racist society in the world” and said that he has been fighting “Jewish racism all my life” (both clip 2). And he declared that anti-Semitism doesn’t exist in the western world today (clip 3).

He was speaking in London at the SOAS launch of his new book The Invention of The Land of Israel. The much discredited thesis of his previous book The Invention of The Jewish People is that there was no expulsion of the Jews from the Holy Land; diaspora Jews, therefore, must have all descended from converts and so have no right to return to Israel.

The already much discredited thesis of The Invention of The Land of Israel is, simply, that the land of Israel holds no religious significance for Jews either.

First, he claimed, there is no mention of “Israel” in the bible; it is only mentioned in the Talmud. This is not true (see note 1). Second, he claimed that political Zionism grew out of Christianity, not Judaism, and he solely credits Lord Shaftesbury and the evangelical Christian movement in London for the idea that Jews should return to the Holy Land.

But Sand, conveniently, regards great religious figures like Rabbi Alkalia and Rabbi Kalischer, who in the early nineteenth century wrote voraciously about the pressing need for Jews to return to Zion, as only minority influences.

Sand claimed that the Balfour Declaration came about due to three main reasons:

1. The ideological background of many leaders who wanted Redemption via a Jewish return to the Holy Land.
2. The colonialist interests of Britain in the Middle East.
3. Anti-Semitism – Balfour didn’t want suffering Jews from the East coming to Britain.

Sand said Jews preferred to move to America but after 1924, when America stopped eastern European immigration altogether, no country would accept Jews who then had no choice but to go to the Holy Land against their will.

Sand, again, conveniently ignores the examples of the Jewish pioneers in the Hibbat Zion and BILU movements who volunteered to move to the harsh conditions of the Holy Land during the 1880s to try to make a life there.

Sand views Israelis as a nation even if a “shitty one”. But, for Sand, they aren’t a Jewish nation because he doesn’t recognise such a concept exists. Sand views being Jewish as a purely religious concept and said that Hamas in Gaza are much more likely to be descended from the ancient people who once inhabited the Holy Land than he is.

Sand says he desires a two-state solution with equal rights for Arabs living in Israel and for Jews living in a future Palestine. Presumably, it would be an Israel where diaspora Jews would have limited, if any, rights to move to.

And on anti-Semitism Sand said:

“The century of anti-Semitism between 1850 and 1950 is finished. Pro-Zionists don’t understand history. I don’t think that political public anti-Semitism exists today in the western world. You cannot find members of Parliament in Britain or the United States who are openly anti-Semitic. You cannot find journalists who are anti-Semitic. You cannot find films that are anti-Semitic.”

This is what many in the audience wanted to hear. It was their official certificate that they are not Jew haters even though they focus solely on opposing the Jewish state while ignoring atrocities by both sides in Syria, by Hamas in Gaza and by the Saudi Arabian monarchy and the Iranian government which both brutally oppress their own people. To name but a few.

Once again, Sand conveniently ignores or is unaware of the example of Liberal Democrat David Ward who recently accused “the Jews” of inflicting something akin to a Holocaust on the Palestinians.

Sand is the master of cherry-picking anything that backs up his argument while ignoring anything inconvenient that might detract from it.

His recent books are not based on proper fact, record or history. They are simply driven by a hatred for the Jewish state.

Notes:

1. For a superb taking down of Sand’s new book see here via Elder of Ziyon.

2. For  a superb analysis of Sand speaking at The Frontline Club the previous night see here via Jonathan Hoffman.

Clips from last night (not good sound quality):

Clip 1 – Sand declares Israel a “shitty nation”:

Clip 2 – Sand declares Israel “the most racist society in the world” and says he has been fighting “Jewish racism all my life”:

Clip 3 – Sand claims there is no anti-Semitism in the west today:

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126 responses to “Shlomo Sand at SOAS: Israel is “a shitty nation” and “the most racist society in the world”.

  1. Shlomo Sand..an Israeli George Galloway would have no problem debating.

  2. How can a shitty little person like Shlomo Sand be acceptable as a history professor at a respected Israeli University. His allegation that “Israel is the most racist society in the world” and that there is no antisemitism in the West show him up as what he is a deluded and arguably mentally disturbed racist himself Surely there must be some sanctions that can be imposed on such outrageous traitors and denegrators of the state which provides their home and livelihood

  3. Asa Winstanley

    Why does he not leave the comfort of Israel, and go and live Gaza, he’d be at home there. He lives a privileged middle class existence in Israel where he can spew his bigoted hatred without fear of arrest or intimidation. Let him fester in his juices. Shame on Tel Aviv University for allowing him to use their infrastructure. He’s one hell of screwed up dude, he should relax, chill out and enjoy his life more in the wonderful Israel.

  4. Asa
    Mazeltov on your transformation from lamentable purveyor of lies and distortions about Israel to true Zionist . Quite outstanding . What prompted this miraculous epiphany . Do tell . ( ok Daniel Marks we know it’s you )

  5. He was on BBC4’s Start The Week in 2009, and the programme can still be heard here http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00npjnj

    I wonder if they’d have had him on had they heard this presentation. (Yes, probably.) But I suspect that he is even more extreme now than he was then. What could possibly have happened?

  6. The expression ‘shitty Israel’ that Shlomo Sand used is not original. I seem to recall the French Ambassador to St. James, referred to Israel as “that shitty little country”. He had the temerity to utter it in the home of a Jewish socialite and journalist, whose guest he was and which she overheard him say. The lady in question, Barbara Amiel, promptly leaked it to the press. As a result, the Ambassador was discredited and transferred to an Arab country, which no doubt earned him Brownie points. I’m willing to wager Shlomo Sand won’t be moved from Tel Aviv anytime soon, nor from the country he despises and which he continually besmirches, as well as the Jewish people as a whole.

    He is also wrong about Zionism growing out of Christianity, like he is about most of the drivel he comes out with. How can such a man, full of venom, hold down a position as a historian in a prestigious university. This is only possible in a humanistic society like Israel. Somebody ought to tell the man that Jews during their long exile, dreamed and prayed to Zion. And modern Zionism was the result of, and answer to violent anti-Semitism, particularly in eastern Europe where most of the early pioneers came from.

    • You are correct of course. Ms. Amiel is the wife of Canadian magnate Conrad Black who had a peerage bestowed on him.

    • [He is also wrong about Zionism growing out of Christianity, like he is about most of the drivel he comes out with.]

      He is not entirely wrong about that. The desire for a Jewish return springs from a Jewish experience of dispossession. Christianity played a major role in defining Jews’ proper place and situation as being one of statelessness and exile, especially when it became the imperial power. Similarly it was only by the consent of the imperial powers that be that Jews could have staged any kind of large scale return, which in the 19th century were Christian.

      But if historical Christianity defined Jews’ proper place as one of statelessness and exile, so did Islam. If that is Sand’s argument, he might as well say that Palestinian Muslims as well as Christians played a role in impressing on Jews that they were historically a people dispossessed, and therefore possessed of a hope for restoration.

      By his argument, the victimiser always ‘creates’ the mindset of the victim.

      • [Christianity played a major role in defining Jews’ proper place and situation as being one of statelessness and exile, especially when it became the imperial power.]

        Which +pagan+ imperial power had dispossessed the Jews in the first place, by its own definition. Christianity simply interpreted that dispossession as a kind of quasi-Christian act, there being a kind of adopted continuity between pagan and Christian imperial policy towards Jews. In fact in some ways the pagans were seen as having behaved too +mercifully+ towards the Jews.

        If Christianity ‘invented’ the exile which birthed a Jewish hope of its reversal, it is because it was at some level both deeply complicit, consolidating or indeed creative of it i.e. yes, at some level, the victimiser +does+ cause/create the victim. But I do not know if that is what Sand means.

  7. How can Israel allow a traitor travel the world, denegrating the country that gives him a living? If Israel is such a ‘shitty’ nation, let him go to ‘free’ Syria and dodge the suicide bombers from the ‘peaceful’ rebellion that has no worries killing its own children.

  8. It’s very frustating that there are such Jewish Anti-Jews…Richard, may I republish this?

  9. When I see Shlomo Sand, I start to believe Israelis are very racist. His previous book was a fairy tale proven totally wrong by science but still honored by antisemites in the West who supposedly do not exist.
    No doubt Mohammed Merah killed in Toulouse Zionist children who committed atrocities on Muslims. And no doubt increase in antisemitic acts in France are mistaken political discourse.
    Sand is a shitty writer, with a shitty brain.

    • Like any other country or ethnicity, Israel and the Jews have their share of bat shit crazies. Unfortunately, the BDS movement — which is largely financed and fueled by anti-Semetes/ism (ie: the denizens of Arab league countries and Iran) rather than any desire to see a wrong righted — gives a platform to these lunatics.

  10. This is as an important a record as recording Hitler’s or Goebbels speeches. However, without suggestions as to how to get people together to DO something about it , it is only that.!. Historians will be amazed that tJews and othesr did not put up a credible defence against such incitement to hatred and defend their good name against such evil.
    The obvious needs to re-stated “The holocaust did not begin in the gas chambers it began with words” What we desperately need is 100 Oueen Esther’s to point out that such people want nothing less than to kill us.

  11. I think sand is not a history professor,
    he is professor of french cinema, smth like this

  12. Tel AViv University is a shitty university for not firing and jailing this traitor.

  13. Sands bigotry holds no limits. This man is insane by any standard.He runs theories which are so delusional and the academics who hate Israel join ranks with him? It is the rational and researched history that gets buried and a new narrative emerges. There is no discussion. Sands is the new Messiah. His body language and language shows he has his audience in his grasp. They have come to wallow in shit they so much loved the last time round.
    For those who have studied the Nazi period and have wondered how it could be possible so many ordinary people brainwashed (or brain dead) ended up blindly following insanity: Here’s the proof!

  14. Learn more about Comrade Sand the pseudo-professor here:

    http://www.isracampus.com

  15. Oh I agree. I also think Israel is a shitty country. I hate my own country and want to see all the Jews thrown into the sea. But meanwhile, I employ convicted Palestinian terrorists in my lab where they can build bombs!

  16. Hi Harvey,

    I didn’t see the comment in question, but it wasn’t mine.

    I read somewhere Sand saying that he’d waited till he got tenure before opening his mouth, for fear of being sacked. Unfortunately, with things the way they are both in Israeli academia and in our judicial system, there’s little chance of his being sacked. Needless to say, his views are about as fringe as one can get and he represents but a handful.

    Regarding what he says, there hardly seems much point in getting drawn into a debate as to whether Israel is a “shitty nation” or not. I know of no objective criteria for determining how “shitty” any nation is or isn’t.

    However, I’m guessing that the seven injured Syrians who begged to cross our border last week in escape genocide and be treated by Israeli doctors and nurses might not agree with Sand.

  17. I think the origin of the term “sh*tty nation” comes from Shimon Peres, who has been heard to talk about “sh*tty rabbis” (‘rabanim mechurbanim’).
    Difficult to determine who has injured Israel more – Sand or Peres.

    • No, not difficult at all. Our esteemed president wins hands down.

      Peres has his heart in the right place, but because of stupidity and vanity he has brought two nations as much suffering and tragedy as any modern Zionist leader.

      Sand can hardly be said to mean well, but how much real injury have he or his silly books really caused?

      • richardmillett

        That we will never know the answer to. Although look at Merah who murdered Jews in Toulouse based on the lie that Israel targets children in Gaza.

  18. Last year, A Palestinian man, Muhammad Abu Shahala, reportedly confessed under torture to selling his home in Hebron to a Jewish man. He has been sentenced to death after a hurried trial. Caroline Glick writes on her blog:

    The PA was established in May 1994. The first law it adopted defined selling land to Jews as a capital offense. Shortly thereafter scores of Arab land sellers began turning up dead in Jerusalem and Judea and Samaria in both judicial and extrajudicial killings.

    Leaders of the Jewish community of Hebron wrote a letter to international leaders this week asking them to intervene with PA Chairman Mahmoud Abbas and demand that he cancel Shahala’s sentence. They addressed the letter to UN Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon, US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton, President of the European Council Herman Van Rompuy, the director-general of the International Red Cross, Yves Daccord, as well as Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu and President Shimon Peres. In it they wrote, “It is appalling to think that property sales should be defined as a ‘capital crime’ punishable by death.

    “The very fact that such a ‘law’ exists within the framework of the PA legal system points to a barbaric and perverse type of justice, reminiscent of practices implemented during the dark ages.”

    They went on to make the reasonable comparison between the PA’s law prohibiting land sales to Jews to Nazi Germany’s Nuremburg laws that constrained and finally outlawed trade between Jews and Germans. The letter concluded with the question, “Is the Palestinian Authority a reincarnation of the Third Reich?”

  19. ISRAEL which is defending itself against Pan-Arabism, Arab imperialism and Arabization of the Middle East – that is the “problem Sand don’t like.

    The real problem is global Arab/Moslem insistence to spread hate, violence, wars, terrorism, lies, false accusations against Jews and reducing Jews to subhumans or second class citizens – slaves or servants – without any human rights.

    When you have Palestinian leaders teaching their people, If their are 10 Jews and you kill 6 of them, how many Jews are Left?

    When you have these same wicked leaders telling their people that Jews are the sons of Pigs and Apes.
    When you have Palestinian Mufti’s teaching in Mosques that all Jews must be exterminated, are we shocked when Palestinians celebrate butchering Jews?

    Opposing Arab colonialism and Muslim theocracy, oppression of women and non-Muslims, and supporting the free and democratic state of Israel are progressive positions.

    Arabs CANNOT make peace with Israel. Without Israel to blame for all the death, poverty, destruction, misery and oppression across Islam, who will the Islamic people blame? Wait, they’ll blame the Mossad Shark, Mossad Vulture, the 4000 Jews who didn’t show up at the World Trade Center, and the new crazy Arab theory that Bugs Bunny doesn’t like Muslims.

    If only the Arab could put himself in the 21st century.Even the 19th century would be an improvement.

  20. By the way, how many Muslims have been killed by Muslims this week in Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, Libya, Bahrain, Lebanon, Somalia, Yemen? How many have been killed by Jews? Numbers please.

    Palestinians should get one thing into their heads: the world does not revolve around them. They share the blame for their situation, because they always wanted everything and never wanted to compromise.
    First and foremost that NOBODY, and least Israel owes them anything.

  21. Hamas and the PLO derive their legitimacy by killing Israeli secretaries and high schoolers.

    Virtually all of the Palestinians killed during these past 12 years were suicide bombers, terrorists killed in gun battles, dissidents lynched by fellow Arabs for their beliefs, women and children used as human shields or foils by their “brave fighters” – and yes, dozens of people who were caught in the line of fire. Few recall that when Israel began using aircraft to destroy terrorist facilities (following the massacre of Jewish shoppers at a Netanya mall) the Jews actually publicized the targets in advance, in order to minimize Arab civilian casualties.

    Every morning, at least one Palestinian wakes up with a smile and the thought, “I’m going to murder some Jews today.” They strap on explosive belts and guns, and search out any soft target they can find – a city bus, a baby, a student, a jogger. Israelis do not wake up in the morning and set out to murder Arabs. In rare instances when a Jew actually injures or kills a Palestinian, he is arrested and prosecuted. Contrast this with the Arab hero who shoots a Jewish baby. This “martyr of the Terrorstinians” will be eulogized by Hamas and Fatah, his family made rich and his picture proudly displayed throughout the Arab world.

    The Palestinians have raised an entire generation to believe that the highest aspiration in life is to kill Jews. The Palestinians are engaged in an unremitting campaign of targetted murder of women and children. When the Palestinians massacre Israeli school children on buses, and babies in baby carriages, they celebrate. They have raised an entire generation to believe that the the highest cultural and religious value is the massacre of Jews. Through the Arabs hate, an entire generation has lost the capacity for humanity.

  22. The Palestinians have nothing to do with the name Palestine.
    The name Palestine is named after the Philistines, not the Palestinians or any Arab group.
    The name Palestine was applied by the Romans against the Jews to destroy the name Israel.
    It was certainly not directed or bestowed to the Arabs in this area.

    The Philistines were from Crete and came to Israel 3000 years ago and were not Arabs or Muslims.
    Delilah and Goliath were Philistines. (Philistines died out.) Philistine is the name the Romans renamed Israel as a chagrin against the Jews.

    Yassir Arafat was not a Philistine, but an ARAB born in Egypt. Philistine originates from the Hebrew verb Palash, which means to invade. So the Arabs who started to call themselves Palestinians in the late 60’s are invaders and they want to create an Invadia state.

    Shlomo Sand knows, their was never in history any state called Palestine governed by Palestinians.
    Tell us when did it ever belong to Palestinians? Answer Never. It was never a Pal land to begin with, so your question is invalid.The Palestinians never governed or controlled any land before 1993. To make it simple, please tell me one Palestinian President before 1948? Keep thinking.
    The Palestinians want a capital, which they never had, in a country that never existed.

  23. The Arabs are invaders from Saudi Arabia.
    Tell me Communist Sand, how do the Arabs have 22 countries when all the Arabs come from 1 country”. Saudi Arabia?
    How did the Arabs get all of North Africa from the Berbers?
    I’m talking about what is today Algeria, Morocco, Libya and Tunisia
    Its called Mohammad and his Jihad armies in the 7th century invaded and took the entire Mideast and North Africa and forced everyone they defeated to be Islamic and Arab.

  24. Why does Hamas send rockets from a school praying that Israel returns fire and kill some of it’s children. Thats Gaza today. The Arabs are the only people in the world that go out day by day figuring ways to get their children to die in front of the world press.

  25. Lets see who’s about apartheid and racism?
    There are 8500 Jews living in the 22 Arab countries, while their are 1.5 million Palestinians in Israel.
    Jews are barred from living in every Arab country, except a few thousand Jews who live in Morocco and Tunisia.
    Jews wants to leave Tunisia with an Islamist government in power.
    I should remind people, two of the Top Tunisian clerics 2 months ago called Jews Apes and for their mass killing.

  26. Shlomo Sand, twinned with Gilad Atzmon. They both belong with the flatterers in Dante’s Inferno.

  27. I was joshing with the Asa Winstanley comment . About as much chance of him turning as Galloway .

  28. A psychological analysis of shlomo stockholm syndrome sand would be interesting.

    He seems to have internalized anti-semitisim and believes by rejecting his heritage he can save himself.

    • Exactly. This explanation for Jewish antisemitism is I think better than the “self-hating Jew” one, which requires pathological terrain.

    • You may be right, TGIAI, about the internalising of antisemitism, but off the top of my head (trust me, I’m a psychologist :-)) ) the CAUSE of it is complex. From his behaviour, my hypothesis (note, not diagnosis because I haven’t met him or assessed him) is that he is dual-diagnosis – a malignant narcissist with a hefty dollop of malignant Oedipal rage against his own country and people.

      The narcissism comes about from his early life and perhaps from bitterness that he was never treated as specially and with the respect he felt he deserved. Deep down he is very insecure but as a result he has overcompensated and has bigged up his ego to monumental proportions (and SOAS and his publishers do him absolutely no favours when they collude with him in that). However, and here’s the kicker, that ego is correspondingly paper-thin and can be easily punctured.

      We just have to find out which pin will do the job.

      • I’m not a psychologist but I do have a theory as to why anti-Semitism has been endemic for centuries. Judaism brought to the world a moral code which in essence held people to a higher and more difficult ethical standard than had previously existed in codified form.

        People resent being told what to do and what not to do if it runs counter to their primitive animal instincts. And folks resent being made to feel guilty for having negative but natural feelings (rage, envy, etc.) and having to control those destructive natural instincts. Judaism introduced the world to a higher moral awareness and holds all to it and that the world cannot forgive. It’s a classic case of blaming the messenger.

  29. I’m calling it now: his next book will be titled “The Invention of Antisemitism”.

  30. As we are deeply into the subject of sh*t, in connection with Shlomo Sand. In the Jewish S.H.I.T. List (Self Hating Israel Threatening) where, Sand, the communist “New Historian”, sits comfortably. The extensive S.H.I.T. List contains a host of quirky social misfits. There is our own, proud lesbian feminist progressive ‘Rabbi’ who supports Moslem misogynists, who treat women like sh*t. The list is endless and covers the whole western world. There is for instance, Rick Salutin from Canada, who commented on the refusal to bury arch-terrorist Yasser Arafat on the Temple Mount. The Israeli Justice Minister at the time, ruled that the Old City is the domain of past Jewish Kings, not Arab terrorists. To which Salutin, the S.H.I.T. List fellow, responded “That is the voice of Jewish arrogance, not Jewish righteousness!” The person who compiled the list deserves our admiration. The list makes light reading, but is also enough to make one weep…

  31. ‘Sand the Despicable’… is like a Homegrown Haman.

  32. “I don’t think that political public anti-Semitism exists today in the western world. You cannot find members of Parliament in Britain or the United States who are openly anti-Semitic. You cannot find journalists who are anti-Semitic. You cannot find films that are anti-Semitic.”

    Sand is basically right but he does ignore the small number of incidents that occur in the West that should be seen as genuine antisemitism. 99 % of what is paraded as antisemitism is criticism of Zionism, criticism of Israeli foreign policy, criticism of discriminatory policies towards non-Jewish Israelis etc. Viewed like that even the most supportive g’ment in the world must be seen as antisemitic because in principle at least even the Meircans oppose further settling! And waddayknow: such accusations fly regularly! See the Chuck Hagel flap, for instance.

    The case of David Ward is a case in point. His mistake for which I won’t be an apologist: to do as the Zionists tell you to do and equate Israel with ‘the Jews’! Millett wants to have his cake and eat it too: he can claim critics of Israel are antisemites because he equates Israel with the Jewish people (an official Zionist party line), thus critics of Israel are antisemitic because they criticise the Jewish people. So when Ward stupidly follows the Zionist diktat, Millett then highlights the words the Jews with quote marks. And hey presto! Ward’s a Jew hater!

    Invoking EoZ should be well below anyone’s dignity. This nut once claimed that a settler accused of arson had to be innocent because the crime had been committed on the Sabbath! Even smarter (?) than the ‘hipflask defence’ in the case of a charge of drink-driving!

    • Israel need o criticism from antisemites, There are seven million Israelis already working on this. Israel-bashing, obsession of blaming Israel for the same ills of any democracy IS a modern form of antisemitism. All those who are unable to see that have already crossed the line.

    • Gert says: “99 % of what is paraded as antisemitism is criticism of Zionism, criticism of Israeli foreign policy,”
      NO
      “99%” of criticism of Zionism is antisemitism. How do we measure it?
      Obsessiveness with Israel and repeatedly libelling what is essentially a Jewish endeavour and blaming it for the ills of the world. The “criticism” ignores immeasurably worse cases of injustice but paradoxically is compared to the worst cases. Israel is expected to live to a standard of perfection that no other country does or can. This sort of thinking has become so ingrained that it has all the pathological ingredients of antisemitism, because that is what it is: a pathology. The danger is that when the “Israelis/Zionists/Jews” are not able to manoeuvre to agree to these insults, they are ready for slaughter. Since those bastard Jews don’t listen to world opinion they must be punished and the perpetrator need no longer fear being called an anti- semite for doing it.

      Now Sand is a Marxist. he tries to argue that all countries have distorted narratives, but in the case of Israel, this is the only one he is prepared to deconstruct. Where facts conflict with his narrative, he plays down details or ignores them or he makes it up if things do not fit his theory. He is not “criticising”. He has joined the chorus of Jew haters who are waging a psychological war. Expect his books to sell.

    • No, Gert. Ward is doing what he do because he wants to impress his constituents who, very probably, use “Zionist” and “Jew” interchangeably and hate both equally.

      A sure-fire vote winner doncha think?

  33. I also never dreamed I’d actually see someone expressing admiration for the masada2000 S.H.I.T. list. But hey, it happened here: can’t say I’m surprised!

    • Ward, just as Tonge, crossed the line. His brain couldn’t apply the automatic safety substitution of the word “Jews” with “Zionists”. The good thing with telling always the truth is that you don’t have to remember the lies you told before. Exercise yourself, Gert, otherwise your tongue may slip too!

      • ‘Zionism’ does not equal ‘Jews’, Jose. You have no right to speak in the name of those Jews who don’t agree with whatever Zionist policy they choose to disagree with. To award yourself that right is totalitarian in nature.

        If I truly believed Zionism’s crimes are committed for the sake of Jews or Judaism I’d be or soon become an antisemite, in the same way one becomes anti-Fascist when judging Fascists.

      • Hum, sorry, it is you who replace “Jews” with “Zionists” in your drivel. Just replace it back and see how it looks. Pretty racist, isn’t it. You don’t speak for any Jew, of course, or any ‘Palestinian’ either.

      • Remember to talk about all these imaginary crimes that you project on Jews.

      • Gert, the vast majority of Jews (as indicated by polls) support Israel. I am one of them, and I could not be more proud to call it my country. Assuming you are Jewish, you are in the minority. Assuming you are NOT Jewish, you have no right whatsoever to declare yourself the arbiter of how Jews define themselves.

      • Gert is Greta Berlin in Purim disguise!

      • Dan,

        Many things have been said about my “in-between jobs” mate from Bridlington over the years, however, be assured that nobody has ever called him a Jew. I’m sure he’ll take this in the nicest possible way, but I believe that few are the Jewish mothers who would have let their son turn out in that way.

        I could elaborate, but shall not. Instead, if any of you are in the vicinity of East Riding at midday and happen to bump into a rather lonely, rather confused middle aged gentleman of Belgian extraction at the “Gala Bingo in Bridlington Promenade” ranting (though rarely raving) about his unread blog and the Zionist entity, much should become clear. In his mind’s eye Gertie is the most terrible enemy of the State of Israel, over here, excluding myself, nobody even knows that he exists.

        That, in a nutshell, is the tragedy of Gert Meyers.

        I shall

      • I never thought I might feel compassion for Gert

        but I do

        so much so that for once I don’t even want to check how his aspirations of selling explosives are doing

  34. First they were called the Hebrews then the Israelites then the Jews then the Zionists then now it is they are the Israelis. History teaches that there will always be those who will find yet another name and another excuse by which to attack the very People who established the ethical foundations upon which civilized society stands today. That is the way of the world that is in desperate need of Tikun Olam – repair.

  35. Joshua:

    The “criticism” ignores immeasurably worse cases of injustice but paradoxically is compared to the worst cases.

    So at least you admit Israeli injustices? But they don’t count because there is worse in the world?

    Israel is expected to live to a standard of perfection that no other country does or can. This sort of thinking has become so ingrained that it has all the pathological ingredients of antisemitism, because that is what it is: a pathology.

    Nope. Israel gets away with almost everything. The US occasionally criticises Israel for this policy or that settlement (only to suffer a barrage of ‘it’s antisemitism, stupid!’ type of response) but never does anything about it. Western G’ments are extremely indulgent of Israel’s crimes and misdemeanours. Israel has ignored more UN resolutions than Saddam Hussein.

    Not only is it NOT ‘expected to live to a standard of perfection’, despite its deep flaws and ongoing injustices carried out in the name of a Jewish homeland it is adored and put on a pedestal by large swathes of the world’s population, even more so after 9/11 because even the former Jew-baiters of the Far Right prefer to bash Muslims and side with Israel.

    The danger is that when the “Israelis/Zionists/Jews” are not able to manoeuvre to agree to these insults, they are ready for slaughter.

    Talk about pathology, in this case paranoia. Israel is a veritable military superpower, practically unassailable. Would you care to tot up the death tolls on both sides of the conflict? Let me help you: systematically 10 times more non-Jews die in ‘Israel’s wars’ than Jews. Occasionally the ratio goes up to 100.

    Since those bastard Jews don’t listen to world opinion they must be punished and the perpetrator need no longer fear being called an anti- semite for doing it.

    Israel systematically ignores world opinion and reserves the right to defend itself by means that aren’t allowed to any other Western country. Where is the ‘punishment’, Joshua? Perhaps it’s the 3 billion USD/annum that the US so kindly bestows on Israel (more than it donates to entire swathes of countries put together)? The Dolphin second strike capability submarines that Germany supplies to Israel? That must really hurt!

    • Which “crimes” does Israel commit that it has to “escape”? Those crimes do not exist except in the sick imagination of antisemites. ‘Palestinians’ are sole responsible of their ordeal. They even elected their own tyrants in the hope that they would kill Israelis. The fact is they kill more ‘Palestinians’ than Israelis, thanks to (I guess) some of the ‘crimes’ you blame on Israel.

    • 1.Gert you are twisting my words. I didn’t say that injustices don’t count did I? The operative words in the sentence you have quoted are ” immeasurably worse”

      2.Yep, not nope. Criticism of settlements is not the issue Gert and you know full well what I am talking about. This is about antisemitism and delegitimisation. Israeli society is divided over the issue regarding handing over land it legally holds in return for peace. Neither left or right can do this without safeguards and agreements. That Abu Mazen and Hanniyah do not recognise Israel and desires its demise hasn’t factored into your mind that this might be anti-semitic and this only proves the point that it IS anti-semitism stupid. That you are prepared to compare Saddam Hussein negatively with Israel also proves the point I have previously made about those ” 99%” of anti-zionists being just that little bit OTT anti-semitic. Or am I paranoid?

      3.True there is military imbalance in the ME and israel is stronger To make sure there is a war where both sides stand an chance, let’s give Iran the A-bomb, Hezbollah the dirty bomb, more missiles and guns and bullets, more suicide bombers and submarines and some knives and grenades for the kids. We can then safely expect more butchery than in Syria at the moment. I think not.

      4 “Ignoring world opinion”? You mean, Jews should commit suicide?

      Thank you so much for your lively comment.

      • Anti-Zionism, denying Jews the right to self-determination, is antisemitism by dictionary definition. 100%, not 99%, of anti-Zionists are thus antisemites at least in that respect.
        Of course, there are many other ways to be an antisemite and some even favor Zionism, because they get rid of the Jews in their country. It doesn’t change the point that anti-Zionists are clearly all antisemites.

    • “Nope. Israel gets away with almost everything. The US occasionally criticises Israel for this policy or that settlement (only to suffer a barrage of ‘it’s antisemitism, stupid!’ type of response) but never does anything about it. Western G’ments are extremely indulgent of Israel’s crimes and misdemeanours. Israel has ignored more UN resolutions than Saddam Hussein.”

      No other country in the world (save for Iran, maybe) has as many UN resolutions against it as Israel does. Only Israel has to deal with a global boycott movement, which has disturbing parallels with the Nazi boycott of Jewish businesses in the 1930’s, and makes demands of the country that would almost assuredly lead to its demise as a Jewish homeland. Even the US seems to hold Israel to be more accountable to the Palestinians, who are certainly no angels. There are countless other examples worth mentioning.

      Don’t even TRY to tell me that you “care” about the Palestinians. There are Palestinians being slaughtered RIGHT NOW in Syria, and you have not mentioned it once. Looking at your page, all the blame seems to focus on Israel and Israel alone. Conspicuously, your problem is with Jewish self-determination, and singling it out amongst all other nationalisms for scrutiny is unquestionably racist.

      You are a disgrace.

  36. What is the definition of a Zionist? Anyone who believes that Jews are entitled to self-determination in their own land, whether he lives in Israel or the Diaspora, is a Zionist. Though some may not consider themselves as such. So all Jews living in Israel are Zionists to varying degrees, including the left, with the exception of a small minority of turncoats like Sand, Atzmon, and so on. And of course the small enclave in Jerusalem consisting of the Neturei Karta, because they don’t support a secular state and would rather wait until the Messiah leads them to the Promised Land.

  37. Why should anyone be so surprised by the mention of the erudite S.H.I.T. List here, when they endorse these self-loathing sh*ts in the first place!

  38. Zand’s books are wrong, pure and simple. And the translations into English make them even worse (confusion between the terms exile and exodus, for instance)

    However, is it absolutely necessary to go down the route of calling this historian of French film a traitor? Or call for his dismissal from Tel Aviv Uni? Aren’t we for academic freedom and against those disgraceful scenes in Middlesex, Essex but hopefully not Oxford?

    Whatever else we might think of him, Zand is an Israeli living in israel – not New York, Paris, Manchester, Leeds, Stanmore or Woodside Park.

  39. Another thing, if he is calling israel a nation, shitty or otherwise, he’s contradicting his first book, whose main thrust was that there is no such thing as the nation of israel. Just sayin

    • richardmillett

      His claim is that there is no Jewish people, but he says that there is an Israeli people.

      • Richard, herein lies the translation/terminology problem. He says in his first book that the Jews, whom he describes as Am Yisrael – the nation of israel – are not a nation

      • anybody doing a “let’s do it all together” appeal will be attacked from everybody justifying his or her existence by promoting “divide and rule”

        anybody who is unable to recognize the quality of the speech and the magic of its delivery needs to have his or her ability for judgment re-evaluated.

        and I consumed it only via the subtitles, without knowing all its implications, still the melody and rhythm of her delivering it got me

        all Israelis should be proud that their country is capable of nurturing something so effective so original so unusual so not same old same old

      • An idiocy that comes from confusing a word with the thing it represents. “Nation” in Hebrew is better translate as “ethnicity” but even then, it does not cover the part of conversion that is included in “Am Israel”.
        Sand is semantically confused and tries to spread that confusion onto others. This is even easier since there is no concensus on who is a Jew an who is not, and that will continue until the Jews have a Pope.
        Sand thus asked a meaningless question and give a stupid answer to it. The only valid answer to a stupid question is that there is no answer to it (looks circular argument, but it is not).

  40. “Oran’s Dictionary of the Law (1983) defines treason as “…[a]…citizen’s actions to help a foreign government overthrow, make war against, or seriously injure the [parent nation].” In many nations, it is also often considered treason to attempt or conspire to overthrow the government, even if no foreign country is aiding or involved by such an endeavor.
    Outside legal spheres, the word “traitor” may also be used to describe a person who betrays (or is accused of betraying) their own political party, nation, family, friends, ethnic group, team, religion, social class, or other group to which they may belong. Often, such accusations are controversial and disputed, as the person may not identify with the group of which they are a member, or may otherwise disagree with the group leaders making the charge. See, for example, race traitor.”

    It seems that many acceptions of the word “traitor” fit what Sand is doing. Perhaps even what some “Joe M” is doing, if we looked closely into it.

  41. Joe M,
    that lie you just stated about Dr Calderon was started by a neer-do-well named Joe Millis, who said that his information was from the website named Kikar HaShabbat – which is in fact a haredi website, as stated on its masthead. Millis is a Reform Jew who likes slandering everything Israeli.

    See the latest post on http://jcwatch.wordpress.com

    – it sounds as if you are actually that Joe Millis.

  42. Joe Millis – alias “Joe M” – lied about the Orthodox “attacking” Dr. Calderon. Millis tries to vent his frustration by attacking everything Israeli.
    The attack on Dr. Calderon was made t=by the Haredim – had millis understood what Dr. Calderon said, he would have understood this – but, alas …

    • richardmillett

      Please don’t get personal here.

      • “Don’t get personal here?”

        Someone who selects not to live in Israel lies about a very large group of Israelis – that IS allowed here?

        Lyuing

      • Thanks, Richard, but no worries. Life’s really too short to worry about this. As they say in Yiddish: “Hor er gesogt!” (So he said! So what!)

      • Frankly, Reiss was not the only Orthodox Jew on this excellent blog to take offense at having his views so blatantly misrepresented by Joe M. If he does not agree with Calderon’s speech, let him say so and explain why. If he knows of any representative Orthodox Jewish body that has condemned it, let him quote it, but with his absurd:

        “The fiercest attack on Dr Calderon came from the orthodox..” he betrays his ignorance and total inability to comprehend what is happening in Israel today.

        Netanyahu has tried to form a coalition without Calderon’s Yesh Atid party and the only party preventing him from doing so is the Orthodox Bayit Hayehudi. They have so far refused to allow a government to be formed to the exclusion of Calderon’s Yesh Atid. That is the face Orthodox Jewry in Israel as of 2013. Regarding her speech, it was almost universally praised by both Orthodox politicians and intellectuals and rabbis.

        I do not think that calling a lie a lie is “getting personal” and it is certainly no worse than misrepresenting the views of a large and influential part of Israeli and world Jewry. Joe M should either substantiate his claim or request to have it removed.

      • I’m sorry Mssrs Reiss and Marks are so upset by my assertion. However, I stand by my claim that the fiercest attack on Dr Calderon, with whose maiden speech i have no quarrel whatsoever, came from the orthodox.
        I’m sure both of these esteemed gentlemen and scholars have seen the piece on the nationalist orthodox Serugim website by Rabbi Dr Eliyahu Rachamim Zeyni slams Dr Calderon and her ilk for “secularising the Talmud”.
        If there was any attack from the atheist left, it was very muted and was based, by and large, on the claim that Dr Calderon was using the Knesset to give a drasha. Which she wasn’t, and is a bit like someone attacking an MP for quoting Milton or Shakespeare in Parliament.

      • Millis,
        as a reform Jew you hate anything and everything connected to Judaism. When it comes to settlers, your remarks are simply fascistic. All this is well documented in the JC.

        You don’t live in Israel and should devote your comments to finding a steady job with which to support your family, and
        relating to problems in the UK. You are not one of us.

        As for Dr. Calderon, you quoted the Haredi web site, nothing else.

      • Here, sadly, Reiss and I must again part ways.

        I asked Joe to substantiate his idiotic claim that “The fiercest attack on Dr Calderon came from the orthodox..” and he brings me Rabbi Zini of the Technion.

        However, I do not believe that this was anything to do with his hatred of Judaism or even his being a Reform Jew. Was it Hawking who said that the greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge?

        Israeli society is not simple to fathom and the religious community here has many divides. There are Naftali Benets and Rabbi Aviners. There are Haredim of various shades of black and Hardal (Zionist Haredim) too. On Calderon’s list there is an Orthodox head of a yeshiva and another rabbi who defines himself as a Haredi. I met the latter last week.

        Joe would be well advised to focus on areas in which he has some degree of knowledge or expertise over and above the crass generalizations that might be picked up by reading the JC or the tourists’ version of Haaretz. His comment was misleading at best and I for one was offended at having an ignoramus telling me who I, as an Orthodox Jew, have been fiercely attacking.

  43. Daniel Marks | February 27, 2013 at 3:10 pm |
    Here, sadly, Reiss and I must again part ways.

    – why “sadly”?

  44. Shimon Ben Lulu

    “Daniel Marks | February 26, 2013 at 2:48 pm | Reply
    I heard of no “orthodox” group that attacked her, possibly you’re referring to some haredi barmies or their like ..”

    – almost prophetic; yesterday Shas ex-convict Ben Nizri railed into Dr. Calderon, in a display of all the primitiveness for which Shas is famous.
    Whoever described Shas as “chimpanzees in Ashkenazi suits and hats” was a little too charitable.

    • Hi Shimon,

      I’m neither a prophet nor the son of a prophet. I have never voted Shas, but have always opposed them vehemently. They have their share of barmies as do we.

      However, as a Jew and the brother of almost a third of a million Israelis who voted for Shas in the last election, and who I love deeply, I am deeply saddened by that racist characterization.

      I assume that were someone to write something similar about the British of African origins, the author of this excellent blog, you and I would rightly censor him. We disagree categorically with much of their ideology and lifestyle, but that is no reason to literally dehumanize them. I am proud to be your brother too and it is in that capacity that I respectfully ask you to rethink your last comment.

  45. Shimon Ben Lulu

    Daniel,
    for heaven’s sake please knock off the sanctimonous crap.
    Maybe you didn’t hear the recording of the Shas leader calling myself and all members of the party I support – The Bayit HaYehudi – goyim? And you probably didn’t hear all the Shas chimpanzees listening to those words burst out laughing at those words?

    If I should apologize for anything, it would be to the chimpanzees who have never done anything against Jews – apart from acting as role models for Shas followers.

    As a proud Sephardi – I am ashamed.

  46. Shimon Ben Lulu

    Daniel:
    ” Yishai correctly apologized a few hours later” – meaningless – worthless. Who the hell is Yishai to contradict his Rabbi? He certainly didn’t speak on his Rabbi’s behalf. Why do you accept his apology? It was only made for the sake of political expediency, although I believe that Yishai himself would never have made such a declaration. (Deri might well have done, and may still do …).

    The Bayit HaYehudi should insist that Shas remains in opposition at least until an apology – not a “clarification” or an “explanation” or a claim of “taken out of context” – is issued. For money, these Shas people will go a long way – even as far as apologizing (and I don’t mean Yishai). Remember, these are the people who made possible the infamous Oslo agreement – all for government money.

    Someone declaring that kipot srugot are goyim does not speak in the name of Torah.

    I remember a long time ago that the same person once declared that all the souls of the 6 million murdered in the Holocaust were the reincarnated souls of evil people.

    There are limits to what insults one can take, especially in the name of Torah.

    • Daniel Marks

      There is a lot in what you write with which I agree and I certainly have no objections to the establishment of a government without Shas or Agudah.

      However, that is for political reasons and is nothing to do with the racist comments that you made above. I do not converse with non-Jews who call Jews apes, but consider them to be anti-Semites. I see no reason to make an exception in your case just because you’re Jewish – on the contrary, you should know better.

      I have given you two chances to withdraw that disgusting comment, but you chose instead to compound it. I am not angry but disappointed, and until you do so, from my point of view this conversation is over.

  47. Shimon Ben Lulu

    “I have given you two chances to withdraw that disgusting comment, but you chose instead to compound it. I am not angry but disappointed, and until you do so, from my point of view this conversation is over.”

    Jesus Christ! What a condescending tone: you have ‘given me 2 chances’ …

    Apart from which you have totally ignored the insult to chimpanzees! Not nice!

  48. maybe Almani is watching German TV and listening to German radio – to me it seems that there they are much in favour of interviewees where they can have a reasonable hope that they’ll deliver the “good” stuff, maybe not as explicit but vitriolic none the less.

  49. Avraham Reiss

    Daniel,
    “There are not many Jews who talk about their brothers with irrational hatred in the way that Shimon has done” – possibly because you are losing this argument, you have begun distorting the truth. I suggest you stop here before you totally lose it.

    Calling religious Jews “goyim” – non-Jews – is irrational hatred that for some reason you seem determined to protect. Are you by any chance a Shas supporter?

    • Daniel Marks

      Hi Adrian,

      I’m always grateful for suggestions, especially from someone as wise and experienced as yourself. I’m sure that to “totally lose it” would be the last thing I’d want to do.

      However, in answer to your question; no, I am not as Shas supporter – never have been and never will be. I am not a Haredi Jew and do not believe in their way of life or their opposition to Modern Political Zionism and the rebirth of the Jewish People in our land.

      I agree that calling other Jews “goyim” is irrational hatred and I negate such statements with every fiber of my being. People who make such statements are worthy of condemnation and should not be part of an Israeli government – though that it not the main reason I don’t want them in the coalition.

      That having been said the members of Shas and its supporters are not apes but human beings, Jews and our brothers and to dehumanize them with the expression “chimpanzees in Ashkenazi suits and hats” is racist. We would not forgive a non-Jew referring to us as apes and neither should we forgive a Jew who does so.

      The character who used this expression claims to have voted for the Bayit Hayehudi as I did, but nobody in that party has ever said anything near to that, not even as we were called a house of goyim, etc.

      I believe that everything I’ve said is quite self-evident so I’ll leave you to reread what I wrote and think it over as you prepare for your lecture on Monday morning. Good luck!

  50. Avraham Reiss

    Daniel Marx,

    “ll leave you to reread what I wrote and think it over as you prepare for your lecture on Monday morning. Good luck!”

    – more sanctimony … do you really think your words are worth a second reading?

    Please use my name as I sign it – Avraham.

    As for my lectures, I don’t need your good luck wishes – they are always a great success. That’s why I give them.

    As for Shas – stop licking up to them. It impresses nobody, at least on this blog.

    • Daniel Marks

      Hi Adrian,

      You feel that by acknowledging the humanity of my haredi brothers I am “licking up to them (sic)”, which I guess is the kind of viewpoint that should not surprise me – indeed, when I read your nutty diatribes often shocked, but rarely surprised.

      Other than that, I think that we have reached a large measure of general agreement regarding the key points, so let’s leave those bones of contention for another day, shall we?

      Have a great lecture. I usually advise speakers that the first thing their listeners are waiting for is a joke, however, I suspect that in your case they shan’t have long to wait!

      All the best,

      “Marx”

  51. Avraham Reiss

    the other Marx brothers are probably turning in their graves

  52. Avraham Reiss

    Hey Marks,
    we finally found out yesterday who is causing the most trouble in the State of Israel: it’s you, Marks, and your settler brothers in Maaleh Adumim and all other places beyond the Green Line. You are costing the State a hell of a lot of money in security, roads etc. In other words – you are a burden on the economy, on the State.

    Personally, I think that is all a load of primitive crap, spoken by a Judaic-ignorant chimpanzee. The settlers are today’s staunchest Zionists.

    But you must agree with your Shas friends who consider you a burden, because those words were broadcast today by a Shasnik who looks even more chimpanzee -like than his friends; it was Shasnik Yitzchak Cohen Deputy Finance Minister.

    T.G., Bennet is preventing the monkeys from taking over the zoo.

    • Daniel Marks

      Adrian,

      I’m not sure what exactly your point is and I doubt if you do either. As I have already explained to Simon, I have no intention of debating with you whether other Jewish people, with whose views I do not agree, are in fact apes.

      At various times in history those wishing to dehumanize the Jewish People as a way of legitimizing plans to commit genocide have variously portrayed us as rats, snakes, monkeys and dogs. Sadly, we are not all void of self-hatred and 2,000 years of being called a beast has apparently caused some of us to doubt our own humanity.

      No, Adrian we are not apes. We are the sons of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and the subjects of King David. Our ancestors built the Temple of Solomon and gave the world a moral code that challenged Paganism and Idolatry and changed the face of the world. Though Hitler and his henchmen treated our fathers, and tried to destroy them, as they would rats, it was they who lost their humanity and sunk to a depth far lower than the wildest of beasts – not us. We emerged from Auschwitz and Bergen Belsen still the sons of Abraham Isaac and Jacob and still the subjects of King David.

      Never let anyone call you a rat or a dog or an ape again Adrian. We came back home for many reasons, and one was that we would never again be packed onto cattle trucks or slaughtered like beasts. We would never again be called such names, not even by ourselves!

  53. Richard an Daniel

    just to let you know

    I feel offended and hurt on many levels by this Avraham guy’s posts

    I’ve decided to ignore his rants which are at best immature of the pre-teen kind

    • Daniel Marks

      Hi Silke,

      I don’t know what to say. I’ve never met Avraham/Adrian and I agree that to an outsider who has never encountered this type, his views might seem to border on the psychopathic.

      However, in his favor I’d say that we did attend the same high school, though many years apart. There were many eccentric teachers, one who regularly called his students “Jewish pigs” and others no less barmy. There was also a great deal of random “capital punishment”. I believe that these may have had their effect on Adrian – I know they have on me.

      Furthermore, and again In his defense, I am acquainted with Adrian’s son who is a charming highly intelligent young man with an excellent sense of humor (i.e he laughs at my jokes) and of whom any father would be rightly proud. I have no doubt that Adrian’s heart is in the right place, and I wish him well.

      • Hi Daniel

        how good to learn that young “Reiss” is more mature than his father ;-)

        and since I tend to find your jokes much to my taste I feel quite a connection

        in general I think comparing humans to animals is idiotic because only humans are capable of doing what humans do.

        Thus any comparison to animals in a debate amongst humans shows the one using it to be incompetent, opting for the all to facile.

  54. I seem to have lost the ability to make comments show up on the side where I want them to be – it looks like a bit of deep thinking is required to penetrate WordPress’ logic for that.

  55. Avraham Reiss

    Silke,
    I didn’t see you comment on Shas calling Bayit HaYehudi supporters ‘goyim’, or settlers ‘a burden on the economy’, so we know exactly where you are coming from.
    And if you are not an Israeli – it’s really not your affair.

    • Daniel Marks

      Hi Silke,

      I missed this one altogether

      “I didn’t see you comment on Shas calling Bayit HaYehudi supporters ‘goyim’, or settlers ‘a burden on the economy, so we know exactly where you are coming from….,”

      I think that the implication is that you are a supporter of Shas. I rarely use the cliche; “funny if it wasn’t so sad” – some things are just funny.

  56. Avraham Reiss

    Since David Marks feels free to expose parts of my private life, I feel that I should return the favor.

    Blog-infester Marks apparently has an adolescent fascination for my mature thought-processes. I say this because he has made a number of attempts – both direct and indirect – to attract my attention.

    He wanted to meet me once when I was in Maaleh Adumim where he lives, but I was forewarned and managed to avoid him. So he tgried another tack, and through a third person requested ‘permission’ to call me on the phone, an offer which I declined.

    So now he has resorted to plying one of my sons questions about me whenever he meets him, which is how he knew that I would be giving a lecture yesterday. (It was, as usual, very successful).

    Marks, grow up; get a life.

  57. There is one deep penetrating insight that one can gather from his latest book…The old Israeli joke he quotes early on, that a Zionist collects money from another Jew to give to another to then another to make Aliya…indeed what Sand does is to activate the conflict between universalism and parochialism …for that he should be taken seriously. The political rhetoric, his reading of history, his disdain of religion, his humanism were all covered before by others but ironically he chooses to live in Israel and has a right to his expression .
    The joke does not disconnect but brings the conflict each so called Zionist must deal with in their particular situation …granting his looseness with facts and over generalizations as some crackpot does not detract from the schizoid nature of choosing between the comfort of religion that can be lived anywhere, with or without land and it’s secular replacement of nationalism.
    The man is clearly living in the wrong place it seems but then again he may have his own agenda and stays and it seems as a refutation of the philosophy he is calling for.
    He may not be a Zionist in any classical or in any religious definition and may indeed wish for the state to disappear as well as the Jews but his posturing needs to be viewed within a backdrop of these times with it’s emphasis on globalization and the demise of nationalism, despite the fact that Marx himself under estimated it’s tug on the individual.
    It may be healthy to understand his logic no matter how hateful and uncomfortable as a way to make each understand their own logic. Indeed his facts if not proven wrong can alter perception so then the task becomes one of needed refutation so truth can emerge as a passage to better understanding . To simply hate him for touching a raw nerve is not the answer. Neither is raw power which bothers him, the difficulty is finding people that can play by a common set of rules….on both sides.
    .

    • Daniel Marks

      I believe that the joke was originally that a Zionist is an American Jew gives a German Jew money to help a Russian Jew move to Palestine. I suspect that the first one’s grandchildren have long ago assimilated while the second was most likely murdered in Auschwitz. Regarding the Russian Jew, his descendants are second or third generation Israelis, sanctifying G-d’s name in the State of Israel.

      I rarely use such expressions to describe other Jews, but Sand is one of those who I pray for three times a day:

      “And for slanderers let there be no hope, and let all wickedness perish as in a moment; let all Your enemies be speedily cut off, and the dominion of arrogance uproot and crush, cast down and humble speedily in our days. Blessed art thou, O L-rd, who breaks the enemies and humbles the arrogant.”

      He represents nobody but himself, is mainly unknown in Israel, but has earned notoriety abroad as the Jew who all the Anti-Semites love.

      • Indeed I am certain at a Seder Sand and I won’t be in agreement but can we dismiss Sand and Finkelstein as self haters with an agenda or as voices of deconstruction that need to be refuted academically when possible?
        The fact that extremists have a following and spread misinformation or misinterpretation is something that people need to contend with….Power rules and I really do not think most take him as the new Lapid or Bennet but it is interesting to note his arguments since the options for many are either an extreme Haredism or extreme secularism…Indeed Herzl was correct IMHO … but when push comes to shove methink emotions rule and historical theories remain subjective…one can view history as an unfolding of a process or existentially ….

      • whether as a rule, a principle it is better to answer nonsense including outright lies or not has never been figured out by anybody

        if one answers one makes more people familiar with the lies as if one doesn’t answer because, as I keep preaching, it is impossible to not think of a lemon (which anybody can check by trying to do it while paying attention to what the saliva in his mouth does) – OTOH if one doesn’t answer there may be people who trust that the nonsense is undisputed truth – if those people however are of a curious and truth loving nature they’ll do their own checking – if they are believers in or lovers of conspiracies they can’t be helped anyway.

        the art therefore in each and every case is to find the right balance like for example give hints to those that can be helped as to how to find sources of information which allow them to develop their own point of view

        But most of what the fabulators tell the world can be discarded by running it through a simple probability check

      • Indeed the lemon analogy is a good one considering one does not need to be taught how to breathe…And I agree that to annul the mind furnishing it’s additional harmful expectations it best to counter stupidity so it does not become the additional furnishings of a rented rather than a pre owned mind. Better to read the contract 1st.

      • Glad you brought up the joke but the closer truth maybe akin to your Zionist readings…I recommend Halkin’s Letter To An American Friend, the book With Friends Like You and AB ‘s writings, in particular his early scholarly essays….Zionism means much to many but need not be bathed in biblical Imperatives …some may enjoy the lifestyle of Netanya while other’s the stones of Jerusalem ….once you explain that the only rational for Aliya is biblical or Anti Semitism you fall into a trap…

  58. richardmillett

    I really don’t think this was posted by Asa.

  59. An interesting text in the first Palestinian Christian Justin Martyr’s Dialogue with Trypho, which I came across recently, is his apparently describing the entire 400 year period from Alexander the Great’s conquest of Judea up to the suppression of the second Jewish revolt as having been one, holy war God gave the Greco-Romans to fight against the Jews as he gave the Israelites to fight against the Canaanites.

    Mythically speaking, the first Palestinian Christian, Justin Martyr, sees the first war fought for the sake of the cross (for it was to punish the Jews for rejecting Christ, even before the event!) as the very war which dispossesses the Jews.

    Given how Christians saw Rome’s dispossessing the Jews as a quasi-Christian act, why should it be surprising if some felt some responsibility from the 17th century that perhaps it would be an act of Christian mercy to help restore Jews, if they wished?

    Justin Martyr, the first Christian to define himself as Palestinian, writes to the emperor Antoninus Pius that it is duty to continue to bar Jews from Jerusalem, and to fulfil biblical prophecy that strangers consume their land in their place. His is a Christ, not so much +at+ the Checkpoint, but a Christ who +is+ the Checkpoint:

    ‘I am the Checkpoint, truth and the life: no man cometh unto Jerusalem, but through me’.

  60. richardmillett

    I’ll delete your responses when I get back to my desk. No reason why the comment from Asa shouldn’t stand. It obviously isn’t from him.

  61. Thanks, sorry I sounded severe.

  62. Joe M

    Living in a country does not preclude the possibility of being a traitor. In fact, I would imagine that most traitors are residents and citizens of the country that they betray. After all, a Frenchman could hardly be a traitor to England or a German traitor to Russia.

    Plenty of our self declared enemies have lived in the Land of Israel over the years from the early Philistines to the modern-day “Palestinians” and many of our friends and supporters have lived in New York, Paris, Manchester, Leeds, Stanmore and even Woodside Park.

    Like yourself I wish that all Jews would return home and that all Israelis would be proud and patriotic. Unfortunately, I am not certain that either of these dreams will be realized in the immediate future.

  63. Almani Sleiman

    Simon is right and is brave enough to tell the truth about his own people:

    “..those whom Allah has cursed and with whom He became angry and made of them apes and pigs and slaves of Taghut..” – Sura 5:60

  64. Daniel

    OT question – why didn’t you alert us all to that extraordinary speech Dr. Kalderon had been giving at the Knesset?

    As far as “let’s do it together” speeches go this is easily the best I have ever come across – of course I know nothing as to whether her goals are desirable – but strictly from a quality point of view I think even Shakespeare would have been jealous.

    here it is with English subtitles and though those are a bit lacking it still works for me as first class story telling (and arguing) tends to do.

    http://yaacovlozowick.blogspot.de/2013/02/dr-ruth-kalderons-maiden-speech-in.html
    ——-
    and a PS-question for Gert

    – what do you have to tell us about these Egyptian shenanigans – you with your superb access to insider knowledge surely have something worthwhile my attention to say on it.

    http://blogs.the-american-interest.com/wrm/2013/02/25/egypt-re-floods-gaza-tunnels-with-sewage/

  65. Hi Silke,

    It was an extraordinary maiden speech in Hebrew too. She was attacked by the Left for seeking to curry favor with the religious parties, which is really quite absurd bearing in mind that she spoke on a subject that she’d spent her life studying.

    Regarding her goals, all that I can say is that so far I’ve been delighted by the behavior of her party, which naturally, I did not vote for – though my daughter-in-law did.

    Benet and Lapid appear to have built a very unique kind of understanding and cooperation that, for the first time I can recall, is built on domestic matters rather than those exclusively relating to defense issues. To some extent the old line dividing of Israeli politics is being replaced by a new, healthier one – something for which I had prayed many years.

  66. Daniel

    I am glad to learn, that she didn’t ask for something you object to. To detect anything undertones would be impossible for an outsider like myself.

    … and thus I can delight in the experience even more – it was an extraordinary speech on any account – its combination of superb story telling (what an artist she is) and turning it into a rallying cry was better than any attempt of doing it I have ever come across. (and she mentioned my beloved Shulamit Lapid whose who-dunnits are or were available in German (I got them all).

    Being German Kaiser Wilhelm’s rallying cry for WW1 is the template I was acquainted with from early days on and which did a lot to raising my cynicism/slyness detection awareness. There was nothing – as to her story telling, maybe Greeks could do it with a reference to Homer but how to do a plausible move to the rallying cry is beyond what I can imagine.

    Wikipedia doesn’t offer a translation, so here is mine

    “I don’t know parties any longer, from now on I only know Germans”
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burgfrieden

    Obama did a variation of that one several times, starting with the Democratic Convention in 2004 – my industry bosses have tried it again and again but she outclasses them so much, that she plays them in another league.

    it is the sheer excellence of the thing that gets me so worked up. Maybe you in that amazing country of yours are used to such stunts. I am not and watching it has made me very very happy.

    PS: I have heard Aramaic for the first time – does she have an accent or does it really sound so similar to Hebrew?

  67. The fiercest attack on Dr Calderon came from the orthodox, who described her as an existential threat who uses their language against them.

  68. I heard of no “orthodox” group that attacked her, possibly you’re referring to some haredi barmies or their like.

  69. If according to Sura 5:60, Islamofascists have been defeated by apes and pigs and slaves ,

    then Islamofascists must be termites, truffles and Slavers (as they are in Sudan and Mauritania).

  70. Daniel Marks

    Almani,

    There are not many Jews who talk about their brothers with irrational hatred in the way that Shimon has done, so don’t get your hopes up.