War On Want event: “Palestinians live in apartheid ghettos.”

Jamal Juma, of Palestinian Stop the Wall Campaign.

Jamal Juma, of Palestinian Stop the Wall Campaign.

Last night 200 students crammed into Room G2 at SOAS where they heard a new phrase employed in order to accuse Israel; “apartheid ghettos”. “Apartheid ghettos” neatly combines the horrors of Nazi Germany and apartheid South Africa. But this time, in sick role reversal, it’s Jews who are the Nazis (see photo above).

Meanwhile, Daniel Machover, a solicitor, called for “the destruction of the political system in Israel” and for “an end to the Zionist project”. All obvious code for the destruction of Israel, although he wouldn’t admit it.

This was all sponsored and organised by British charity War On Want, which, as has been well documented, is funded by Comic Relief. How War On Want can still get away with wasting hard earned Comic Relief donations on hate campaigns where the ultimate objective is the destruction of a country, Israel, is beyond me.

Contender for chief hypocrite was Jeremy Moodey, Chief Executive of Embrace, a Christian development charity (formerly known as BibleLands), who worked as a banker for Rothschilds for 15 years. Moodey described how Rothschilds “financed many of the earliest settlements in Palestine in the early 1920s and 1930s”.

I asked him if he was a hypocrite for working for such a firm, but he claimed he only saw the light after he left. Here he is, along with Jamal Juma of Stop The Wall, addressing that Rothschilds point and my concerns about the panel’s desire to destroy Israel (Christian Friends of Israel may be interested in Moodey’s initial talk here):

Daniel Machover spoke about the recent Russell Tribunal held in South Africa. The Russell Tribunal is their charade where they put Israel on trial for alleged crimes and then, surprise surprise, the “jury” finds Israel “guilty”. In the tribunal in South Africa the “jury” found Israel “guilty” of fitting the legal definition of apartheid in the so-called occupied territories and in Israel itself.

Machover said countries must be persuaded to accept legal responsibility for this “apartheid” and called for sanctions and the severing of diplomatic relations with Israel. He said that although this would not be forthcoming through the UN due to the American veto the Palestinians should sign up to the Treaty of Rome and request that the situation of “apartheid” be subject to investigation by the prosecutor.

He urged that companies that “aid and abet Israeli war crimes” must be stopped. He alleged that waste company, Veolia, had lost business because public bodies can exclude a company from contracts if they are guilty of “gross misconduct”.

However, an embarrassed Machover admitted that his own council Brent is about to award Veolia a huge contract! Veolia has conducted a lot of business in Israel.

Rafeef Ziadah, a War On Want employee, alleged that Israel boasts that the military equipment it exports is “field tested”, which means it is “tested on the bodies of Palestinians”.

Finally, it was time for Frank Barat, the comic relief. He said that he was still shaking from having drunk an extra strong coffee three hours earlier and he proudly announced the creation of the Palestine Legal Action Network.

PLAN will be working under the auspices of War On Want concentrating on activism, legal actions and media work. Barat was very excited and went as far as to say that he loves War On Want.

From Israel’s point of view one couldn’t think of a better person than Barat to project manage PLAN. It was Barat, of course, who interviewed Norman Finkelstein about the Boycott Israel movement where Finkelstein called it, inter alia, “a dishonest cult” whose victories you can count on the fingers of two hands, if that. For some reason Barat then uploaded said interview onto the internet.

Observing PLAN with Barat in charge, therefore, should provide a lot of laughter.

In the chair for this nasty event was Brenna Bhandar, a SOAS law lecturer, who blogged about Fraser v UCU. And in the front row overlooking his minions was cult leader himself, John Hilary, executive director of War On Want.

Brenna Bhandar (Chair), Daniel Machover, Jamal Juma, Fafeef Ziadah, Frank Barat.

Brenna Bhandar (Chair), Daniel Machover, Jamal Juma, Jeremy Moodey, Rafeef Ziadah, Frank Barat.

108 responses to “War On Want event: “Palestinians live in apartheid ghettos.”

  1. Jeremy Moody, it must be said, spoke on that clip very well (although he was somewhat cavalier with his “facts”), but then Jamal Juma kinda went and let the cat out of the bag…

    • Were I to have been present, I would have asked him in what way are the Israelis persecuting and subjugating the Pals.
      There are no Israelis in Area A of the WB, where most of them live, and only a minimal Israeli security presence in Area B, …..he is, of course, lying in his cultivated way.
      The truth is that entering Palestinian areas is very dangerous for Jews….it’s the Jews who are being persecuted in their own land.
      On Thursday night yet another young IDF soldier was murdered in his home when 2 Arabs entered and bludgeoned him to death.
      I would also have asked Moody what was wrong with Rothschilds financing settlements on barren, deserted lands so that Jews could live there.
      At that time it was part of the Ottoman Empire…a consequence of Ottoman conquest by force.
      It’s a huge mistake to allow Israel’s enemies to define the parameters of the argument…we should direct the discourse to the real bone of contention, namely, that Islam cannot tolerate re-conquest of lands that they once controlled. It’s an affront to Muslims, especially when, in the case of Israel, the incumbents, the Jews, were their dhimmis .
      The Arab countries today sit on land almost twice the size of the USA, yet the whole of Judea and Samaria comprises just 2,000 square miles.
      The Arabs have also cheated the Armenians and Kurds out of lands designated to them at the Paris Peace Conference following the defeat of the Ottomans in 1918.
      As Azzam Tamimi of the Muslim Brotherhood once concisely put it……”we don’t care about having another Islamic state…we have enough of those. We just don’t want the Jewish state.”
      Interesting that the Moody, the Christian, is unconcerned relaxed about the ongoing persecution and ethnic cleansing of Christians currently rampant in the Muslim world.
      Western supporters of the Palestinian “cause” are usually anti-semites, who express their anti- Jewish prejudice by dignifying it with the false notion of championing a persecuted and dispossessed people, and relying on public ignorance to disseminate their lies.
      The Church still has a “Jewish problem”.

      • As I was present, I suppose I can answer your question, Area A is ONLY 18% of WB, Area B has more than 500 check points operating at any one time, to humiliate and degrade Palestinians daily lives.

        Area C is 60% is under full control of Israel who freely demolish homes, deny permits to repair, so the reality it IDF control 82% of WB where MILLIONS of Palestinians are trying to exist under brutal military occupation.

        Palestinians are Christians, Moslems, Jews, Druz,etc NOT only Moslems who lived for centuries together, it’s not only moslems, the document that Moodey was talking about is about the Palestinian Christians suffering,

        Click to access Time-for-Action.pdf

      • Carol,

        Jews were in the Land of Israel long before mohammed rampaged throughout Arabia.

        The Jews preceded your “palestinians” by a millennia.

        And what is “progressive” about siding with people who stone women to death, execute gays, throw opponents off from rooftops, drag “spies” through the streets of Gazaville behind motorcycles?

    • Richard, it might be a good idea to give your supporters notice before one of these meetings take place, so that we can join you to counter the lies.

      • Carol,
        Your lies are so absurd that they will only stand with the truly primitive and uneducated.

        “The Palestinian people does not exist. The creation of a
        Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle
        against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality
        today there is no difference between Jordanians,
        Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and
        tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of
        a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand
        that we posit the existence of a distinct ‘Palestinian
        people’ to oppose Zionism.
        The moment we reclaim our right to all of Palestine, we will not wait even
        a minute to unite Palestine and Jordan.”

        (PLO executive committee member Zahir Muhsein, in a 1977
        interview with the Dutch newspaper Trouw.)

        The “Palestinian” people came into existence in 1969….officially.
        If you look at the documents at the time of the Mandate and after, it was only the Jews who were referred to as Palestinian…the local Arabs, most of whom immigrated illegally, mainly from Egypt and Syria to take advantage of the economic opportunities afforded by the Jews
        scorned the description of Palestinian, which they considered an insult.
        When Israel came into being they defied the will of the League of Nations, the UN and all the international bodies to steal the land of the Jews from the Jews.
        Then came the theft of the Palestinian identity to go with it.
        If, as you say, a Palestinian state existed, who were its kings/leaders and where were its borders?
        No Arab Palestinian state ever existed in history.

        And by the way, Area A contains 97% of the Arab population on the WB.

        You are hopelessly muddled….let me help you—-
        On December 2nd. 1917, Lord Robert Cecil, deputy foreign minister said publicly….”The British Government wants to see Arabia for the Arabs, Armenia for the Armenians, Judea for the Jews and Turkey for the Turks.
        Get it….you’re pretty thick but even you can remember….
        Judea aka the West Bank…..Jews.
        Arabia is nowhere near Palestine.
        The Arabs are seemingly not satisfied with 22 countries spanning almost twice the size of the USA, but they want the Jewish lands, enshrined in international law of 1920, 1922 and 1923 as well.
        How wicked.
        Perhaps, if you can read a map, you should consult an atlas and see the extent of Arab imperial conquest, courtesy of the Principal Allied Powers’ victory in 1918.

        Oh, and the idea that the Arabs lived in the Holy Land for thousands of years was demolished by the explorers who visited the region in the 19th.century and testified to its emptiness and bareness.
        “The road leading from Gaza to the north was only a summer track…no orange groves, orchards or vineyards until one reached the Jewih village of Yavneh”.
        Palestine Royal Commission, 1913.
        And there are many more testaments to that.

        As to your “persecution of the Christians”….you’re quite right….ethnically cleansed by Muslims in every Arab state.
        The Egyptian Copts who have been there for thousands of years currently being massacred in Egypt.
        Israel is the ONLY country in the ME where their numbers are increasing and they have freedom of worship.

  2. totally agree with you CBA – jamal’s intentions ere made quite clear!

    Anyway no mention of the Jewish Refugees who were forced to flee from the Arab lands – this fact is always forgotten – alongside the killing and maiming of thousands of Syrian Arabs.

    Israel is always unjustly acknowledged by these groups as the bad guys and the rest of the Arab opressions are just completely whirtwashed.

    • When Israel was created in 1948 on the destruction of Palestine and the Palestinian people, Jews were invited from all around the Arab world to take over their homes, businesses, schools, bank accounts, hospitals and everything that was Palestinian towns and villages.

      The facts on the ground is that Jews were never refugees, while the Palestinians are still in refugee camps 65 years on, with no identity, no homes, nothing.

      • kudos richard millett, i don’t know how you can stand to go to these ugly venomous events…..

      • As I’ve said, the Jews were the “Palestinian people”.
        You lie again because the Arabs, encouraged by the Mufti Haj Amin al Husseini who planned the Holocaust with Hitler and was a guest at his home, defied the will of the international community and attacked the new state in a “war of extermination”…their words.
        Six Arab armies attacked to drive the Jews into the sea”.
        You’re enraged because it didn’t quite work out like that.
        Interesting that a cease fire was only demanded once it was obvious that the Jews weren’t going to be driven into the sea. The “Green Line” is simply the line drawn where the fighting stopped.
        There are 4 Armistice agreements and if you read them you will see that they all stress that the Green Line does not denote any kind of border.
        I really wouldn’t say publicly that there never have been Jewish refugees…you will be ridiculed even by your own side.
        As to the Arab “refugees”, there are many references to these which trash your claims, but here is one:—
        “The Arab nations keep the Palestinians and their descendants in squalor. They are denied citizenship rights. They are denied work. They are denied property. They are denied their human rights because they are and always will be a political football in the Arab campaign against Israel”.

        Joseph Farah, Arab-American journalist. 2004.

        And another thing, the proof that “Palestine” was Jewish came from the mouth of the leader of the Arab world in 1919, The Emir Feisal, who wrote that —-“The Arabs, especially the educated amongst us, look with deepest sympathy upon the Zionist movement. Their claims are MODEST AND PROPER ( ie to the whole of Palestine which now encompasses Jordan and Gaza.) We wish our Jewish brothers and sisters a hearty welcome home. Our two movements are nationalistic not imperialistic. One cannot be a success without the other. We look forward to the creation of THE ARAB STATE ALONGSIDE PALESTINE.”
        Letter to Felix Frankfurter. At that time he did not envisage 22 Arab states.

        Carol….actually I think your real name is Mohammed….you have a lot to learn.
        I suggest you read Colonel Meinertzhagen’s “Middle East Diary”.
        He was not Jewish and was the British Government’s Chief Political Officer in Palestine in 1919, as well as Churchill’s advisor in the ME department of the Colonial Office in 1922.
        Unlike you, he was in Palestine to witness the events as they unfolded,
        and unlike you he was an important person.
        In his remarkable diary he demolishes all the boiler plate lies that anti-semites like you rely on to disseminate their irrational hatred.
        Have fun!

      • Why were those Arabs refugees for 65 years?
        Well lets see- Jordan and Egypt kept them as refugees didn`t they.
        Israel absorbed 120000 Arabs into Israel in 1950 which now number 1.5 million. Egypt and Jordan refused to.
        Then of course one would ask in the 17 year rule of Gaza and the “West Bank” by Egypt and Jordan why did we not hear for those areas to become the Palestinian state , the very same areas that they and you shout for now?

      • to take over their homes, businesses, schools, bank accounts, hospitals
        What a fertile imagination you have!

      • Didn’t you know? The first Zionists came to Palestine and found a full-fledged independant modern state! With a money (what was its name?), a government (what was its type?), a president (or was it a king?), a constitition (who signed it?)…
        All they had to do is come and steal the land!

      • And why are the so called “Palestinians” still in refugee camps after 65 years Carol, because they are a political football kicked from pillar to post by the evil Arabist regimes throughout the Middle East. It is not Israel’s fault AT ALL.

        Israel absorbed the 700,000 Jewish refugees who lost everything when the Arabist regimes EXPELLED them from the countries where they had lived for centuries.

        The State of Israel loves its people the Arabist States despise their people.

  3. Context and a fuller truth don’t matter when you have people the likes of these propagating the ever-building mythology that most of the world want to believe in regard to the Arabs living in the Palestinian territories,. There are so many behind this narrative now, pushing, pushing for the ultimate downfall of Israel as a Jewish state, that they’ve taken on a crowd lynch like mentality, under the guise of ‘good speaking’ and ‘intellectual excellence’ – very dangerous.

  4. So now we have a ‘ Stop the Wall ‘ Campaign ‘ . A wall which of course is not a wall but for the most part a security fence and no mention of the cause and effect of the second Intifada which resulted in the murder of more than a 1000 Israelis with thousands more maimed in a wave of homicide bombings . Psychopaths crossing an open border in order to blow themselves up in crowded buses , restaurants , shopping malls etc . Not so much as a mention or an acknowledgement that this might have precipitated the construction of a barrier as a last ditch means to prevent the carnage , a new 7/7 on a weekly basis .
    These self same people who are so motivated to express their anger at university meetings that Israel should have the temerity to protect its own citizens , citing disruption to Palestinian lives and livelihoods begs belief when it was Palestinian terrorism which elicited the response in the first place . It simply begs belief that the true narrative should be whitewashed in this way .
    Utterly shameful . Here is a useful link from Elder


    • The wall is 3 times the height of Berlin wall, it spread over 700 Miles when the actual green line is 200 miles, cutting through Palestinian towns and villages from the rest of the human race, if Israel’s security depend on the wall, then there’s no reason why they cannot build it on the green line, on their own land.

      Here’s the reality of the wall and why was it built http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dh6kLV5QIzA maybe you’ll start to understand what the rest of the world is talking about.

      • Carol.

        The West Bank….real name Judea and Samaria was given to the Jews for their state.
        The laws that enshrined that are:—
        The San Remo Resolution of April 25, 1920.
        The Franco British Boundary Convention of December 23 1920.
        The Mandate for Palestine of July 24 1922.

        These are internationally binding agreements up to the present day protected by Article 80 of the UN Charter, and the 1969 Vienna Convention of Treaties. These are based upon the “Principle of Acquired Rights” and of Estoppel, which are principles of law throughout the civilised world.

        The Israelis are more than decent because whereas the Arabs have ethnically cleansed 1,000,000 Jews from their lands where they had lived since before the birth of Islam, stealing their land, valuables and property, the Jews allowed the non-indigenous Arabs to stay in their designated lands, as well as absorbing the expelled Jews into their tiny country.
        Some gratitude!

    • Yes, it’s strange to recall that it was initially the Israeli Right wing, including most of the settler movement, that opposed construction of the “wall”. Their (our) fear was that this would eventually turn into a border and creating a de facto “Palestinian State”.


      It was only when the barmy European anarchists began turning up to oppose the “wall” that we had no choice but to support its construction.

      “Oh, what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive.”

      I think deep down many of us are still very ambivalent about it and I’m sure that most of us – Jew and Arab alike – pray for a time when it won’t be needed anymore.

  5. Christopher Proudlove

    I hope there is someone out there who will write a book or university thesis on how Palestinian Arabs have fared better under Israeli rule than Jordanian or Egyptian rule. Life for Israeli Arabs should also be compared to the poorer quality of life for Palestinian Arabs in the Gaza Strip or Palestinian Authority areas.
    Pastor Mike Fryer, of Christians for Zion and Father’s House Sabbath Congregation, Queensferry, North Wales, has documentary evidence that Jeremy Moodey has lied about his anti-Israel comments he made at last year’s Grapevine event. Mike previously attended the Grapevine Christian holiday week for 20 years. Disgusted by its new stance he is to lead a new holiday week at Cefn Lea, Powys, Wales, with teaching on why Christians should ditch the traditional pagan-influenced Church calendar for Jewish festivals and Sabbath Day worship.

  6. Israeli exports have never been as high as this year, with a record growth as well.
    So all the BDS cult can boast is a few artists cancelling their shows mostly through intimidation campaigns or even threats. I cannot see how these could be anything but symbolic. The science star Hawking cancelled his show? Two Israelis got a Nobel. Hawking got none.

  7. If Israel is “guilty” of fitting the legal definition of apartheid in the so-called “occupied territories” and in Israel itself, and if “Palestinians” live in apartheid ghettoes, perhaps Mr Machover, or one of his friends, can explain to me how it happens, that in my Jerusalem apartment building, in a “Jewish” neighbourhood, 2 out of 10 apartments are occupied by “Palestinians”.

  8. Carol,
    the Green Line is an armistice line only and has nothing to do with the issue at hand. If the Palestinians would guarantee no bombings, then the wall could come down. It’s as simple, and difficult, as that.

  9. War On Want used to be an admirable and genuine charity.

    It has now descended into an obsessive anti-Israel pressure group and is now anything but a charity, largely thanks to John Hilary.

    • As is Oxfam, Save the Children, Christian Aid, and on and on…..the whole bloody lot of them.
      Why doesn’t the Charity Commission do its job and stop these “charities” staffed by Trots see to it that they are prevented from funding terror against Israel by the back door?

  10. The urbane Mr Moodey claims that he supports “a Jewish State” if “that’s what Jews want” (how awfully good of him), but then goes on to demand the Palestinian Arab “right of return” – which, were it to occur, would ring the death knell of Israel as a “Jewish State”. Funny, that.

    • No country or people can exist at the expense of others, Jews do not have any more right to exist than anyone else on this planet, especially not the Palestinians who’s been victimized since the creation of the state 1948, and been paying the ultimate price.

      • “Palestinians”, who exist only on paper and since 1964 are mostly victimized by their own leaders and their own terrorist actions. No fence before the intifadas and the suicide-bombings that went with it. Israel has every right to defend itself from terrorist aggressions as any sane democracy would do. Go elsewhere if you want to defend those cry-babies eith a bogus cause.

      • Carol,

        JORDAN is “palestine”. That’s on the East Bank of the Jordan River.

        And luckily for “palestinians”, they have a beautiful Queen, Queen Rania. Not Arafats beard Suha – who live[sd] in Paris and now Tunisia – anywhere but with her “people”. Wonder why?

      • Why don’t you protest at the expulsion of Jews from Arab lands where they lived before the time of Mohammed?
        You’re an out and out racist.
        Perhaps you didn’t know that Medina was a Jewish city…one of the first things Mohammed did was to decapitate hundreds of Jewish men and boys there who refused to convert to his new religion.
        Things haven’t changed much ever since, have they?
        And talk about persecution, it was just reported that Iran is now the execution capital of the world.
        Since the “moderate” Rouhani came to power in August some 125 unfortunate young men have been strung up and hanged publicly in Iran on trumped up charges…having been tortured first.
        Go tell that to your Christian friends who are uniquely obsessed with the Jews.

  11. “Area B has more than 500 check points ” No it doesn’t. There’s less than 100 fixed checkpoints, 40 of them right before entering Israel proper at the armistice line, the security barrier or entering Jerusalem. The rest are internal checkpoints, only 34 of which are regularly staffed, and 17 of those are in Hebron keeping the parties from killing each other. When there is a terror attack (as in the two last week) or intelligence of a terror attack in the offing, then the military puts up many more “flying checkpoints” which are temporary in nature and designed to slow down and catch the terrorists.

  12. Carol suggest you do some unbiased research and you will see facts more clearly. If the Arabs put down their arms and denounced violence and accepted Israel for what it is, the ancestral homeland of the Jewish people, there would be one new country in the world whose borders would have to be agreed upon, a country named Palestine whose economy would grow in leaps and bounds, provided they act like a good corporate entity and do what is in their national interests to grow and prosper — not wage war, not take up arms, not be the kid who does not get what he wants so he walks away with the football and goes home.

    • Bighabssfan, I don’t need to do any researching, there’s phenomenal amount of information out there from all sides, ex IDF soldiers (breaking the silence), IJAZ, Churches who appealed for international observers, IO themselves when they returned, the situation is beyond shocking for everyone, to blame the victims is what the Nazi’s did nearly 100 years ago.

      How on earth can you expect the Palestinians to act in any different way when their homes are being demolished on a daily basis? when Gaza is bombed before every Israeli election campaign? when Gaza right now is starving under siege, no electricity to keep hospital equipment going? When thousands are living in FIRING ZONES? when MILLIONS are trapped in WB behind walls and checkpoints? when women are giving birth on the checkpoints, mothers and babies are dying from not getting to hospitals? teenagers killed on their way to school and their classmates wounded for trying to reach them?? more than 750,000 so far been in administrative detention, never charged for anything, including kids from 5 years old, etc, etc,etc,etc,etc,etc

      • Methinks the lady doth protest too much!

      • Checkpoints. Yes. A necessary evil.

        Like the Checkpoints at every airport in the World. A way of preventing murderous attacks by your pals.

      • I think the little lie about Gazans starving is a hoax.
        They have supermarkets overflowing with goods, smart phones, more AK 47s than there are people, olympic sized swimming pools, luxury shopping malls, Michelin restaurants etc. etc., all paid for by western “charity” money.
        They’ve just been discovered to have constructed terror tunnels underground leading from Gaza into Israel, using thousands of tons of cement and building supplies the stupid Israelis gave them to construct homes. They intended to use these tunnels for terror raids into Israel.
        Cameras don’t lie, but you do.
        You remind me of Hitler’s Nazis and their vile anti-Jewish propaganda, except now the abuse is against the collective Jew, Israel.

      • And by the way, it was a Pal woman faking pregnancy at a checkpoint who blew up 2 Israeli soldiers.
        What depraved people your Pals are!

      • Blah, blah… Justification of terrorism. Blah, blah… Not one evidence. Blah, blah… Partisan sources. Blah, blah…
        Biased reports and hearsay. Blah, blah… (Antisemitic) Comparison with Nazis. Blah, blah…
        Fact is Israel does what is needed to protect its citizens and no more. Any democratic nation under permanent attack, as Israel is, would not only do the same but more and would be approved by all but the opposite side. Only when Israel is concerned can we observe this racist double standards.

      • Carol.

        We’re waiting for answers….I know, you haven’t any.

        You remind me of an idiotic politician (whom I won’t name) who said in an interview–
        “I used to have so many opinions until I learned the facts”.
        Remind you of anyone?

      • What happened to the $3 Billion Aid money Carol. Arafat died a multi-billionaire made rich from money given by useful idiots like you.


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  14. Sorry, but I don’t see the word “Jewish” here. You could call it anti-Israel. You could call it anti-Zionist. But anti-Jewish?

    • Anti-Zionism, the denial of self determination rights to the Jewish people, is antisemitism. It singles out Jews from all other people and denies them a right granted to all others.
      You can call something anti-Zionism. It will still remain a form of antisemitism, whether you wish to delude yourself or not.

      • Ain’t no such thing as a Jewish people or nation. It’s an invention of 19th-century Europeans who wanted to ape romantic nationalism for Jews. Jews are members of a religion.

      • Rubbish!
        A nation can be defined as a large aggregate of people united by common descent, religion, history, culture, or language, often inhabiting, or originating from a particular country or territory.
        The Jewish nation fits this definition perfectly.
        Stop wasting time with your faux polemics and concentrate on the real arguments, otherwise you will be rightly considered a crank.

      • LOL! Too late. He is already!

      • Oh, I see. No Jewish people in ancient Israel! When do you rewrite those stupid history books?
        Even a Neturei Karta would not state such a stupidity.
        By the way, when was the bogus Palestinian people invented? 1964? So not worthy of a state, are they?

      • So atheist Jews are not Jews.What a new idea, not even halachically correct!

      • Unfortunately for you, Jose, the first mention of Palestinian Arab nationhood was in the middle of the 19th century in Jaffo. That’s about 40 years before the invention of Jewish “nationhood” in Basel, Switzerland, by a syphalitic scribbler called Herzl

    • You’re not Neturei Karta, are you?
      Israel and Jewish have become interchangeable in the universe of the anti-Semites…..haven’t you noticed.

      • Jose and Tosca, When Jews left Palestine for economic reasons in the 1st century, they scattered and took up the identity of their host nations. Jewish “peoplehood” disappeared and all that united them were religious beliefs or practice. Yes, even the atheists, because under Jewish law a Jew is someone who is born of a Jewish mother or has converted religiously irrespective of whether that person believes in the Torah or the Great Spaghetti Monster.
        Judaism is determined by a religious ruling. Not a national one. If it were the latter, anyone living in Israel would automatically qualify as Jewish.
        The whole Zionist premise is an invention.

      • Oh, for goodness sake…rubbish again.
        Are you really suggesting that Jews have nothing to do with Zion?
        That Jerusalem isn’t mentioned hundreds of times in the Torah?
        That the Land of Israel isn’t integral to the Jewish religion?
        Then you’re both blind and deaf.
        I can’t be bothered to argue with you…..go away!

      • Well, never let facts get into your way. Facts are that Zionism has existed for 2000 years as religious and more than a century as secular. First one mantained Jewish peoplehood until the second one took over. Whatever denialist say, facts won’t go way.
        Palestinians, a bogus people invented in 1964, isn’t half as old as modern secular Zionism. I guess you don’t support the notion of Palestinian peoplehood, let alone statehood. Or do you?

      • Actually, Tosca, Jerusalem isn’t mentioned once in the Torah. Go and check. Jews may have had in the dim and distant past a connection to Palestine. Not any more.

      • So if I mention “the capitsl of France”, you’d say I didn’t mean “Paris” ? Very intelligent !

      • “Chaim Pesach” said:

        Jerusalem or as Arabs call it, ‘”Al Quds” is NEVER once mentioned in the Koran. AND Muslims pray facing Mecca, NOT “Al Quds”.

  15. Reblogged this on and commented:
    Christian charity leader joins the War against Israel!

    • Reply to Chaim pesach.

      Like a broken clock that is correct twice a day, Jerusalem isn’t mentioned in the Torah, but is, hundreds of times in Nach….Neviim and Ktuvim….I suppose they have nothing to do with the Holy Land, have they?
      First and second Temple periods have nothing to do with Jerusalem do they?

  16. You are all wasting your time trying to argue with Jew Haters Su h as Carol.Amti Semitism is I their DNA .There is a center in the midbrain,that is activated whenever they hear the word Jew.This center has been there for millennia and is strengthened by years of antiJewis teaching by the churches and their priests.Whenever they hear the word Jew or Zionists,all rational thinking is inhibited and they become like the Germans in the last century. Trying to reason with these latter day Naxis is useless. Go for a walk instead and support the only democratic state in the Midd
    Le east,and the only state that does not kill Christians Sunnis,Shiites and Alawites.Theymalso do not rape,and beat theirnwomen

  17. The true Palestinians were known as the Jewish people,(the arabs detested being called Palestinian) up to circa 1964 the Jewish newspaper known as the Jerusalem Post used to be called the Palestine Post, the Israeli Philharmonic Orchestra was once known as the Palestine Philharmonic Orchestra.
    In 135CE/AD the Emperor Hadrian finally conquered the Land Of Judah/Judea and renamed it ‘Palestina’ the latin for Philistia,after the ancient enemy of Israel the Philistines, a seafaring people who migrated to an area known as Gaza today, they came from the greek Islands, especially Crete. Today some of the people called Palestinians were originally Jewish, yes there are a few who still remember and try to keep some of the customs of Judaism. In the days of the British Mandate for Palestine many arabs were encouraged by the British to enter Palestine, while Jews fleeing persecution and certain death from the nazis were forcibly being turned back, there were severe restrictions on the Jews trying to reach their own land while at the same time no limits on arabs entering the land under British rule, and when there was a Jewish state declared, several arab armies marched on Israel, led and trained by the British!

    • Correct and excellent.
      All well documented in Meinertzhagen’s “Middle East Diary”.
      Successive British governments betrayed the “sacred trust of civilisation” invested in them as Mandatory, by ignoring the legal requirements of the Mandate for Palestine.
      When the final outrage occurred in the British White Paper of Malcolm Mc Donald on May 17 1939, severely restricting Jewish immigration to Palestine and thus condemning Jews to certain death in Hitler’s gas chambers, David Lloyd George gave a radio broadcast on 23 May, denouncing it as illegal and immoral, and that henceforth the British word would never be trusted.
      He described it as a betrayal of the Jews.
      All forgotten in the sands of time!

  18. Tosca, you are very fortunate to have read Meinertzhagen’s ‘Middle East Diary’ , one day I will get round to buying myself a copy.

    • Thanks…there aren’t many about….last published in 1960.
      Best is to Google it rather than go to Amazon.
      Also read Howard Grief’s “Legal Foundation and Borders of Israel under International law”…..A profound work of scholarship set in an historical context.
      The author was a lawyer who, instead of enriching himself, spent more than 20 years of his life researching the material going back to original documents and archives.
      He was certainly the world’s leading authority on the subject.
      I haven’t yet absorbed it all.
      Meinertzhagen’s is more of a pacy, fun read, but an invaluable source of the truth relating to the period.
      He was there and knew all the major players. Reading it was iconoclastic….a true revelation.

  19. Just use google maps, and you get a very different picture of what they say!!

  20. Just use google maps, and you get a very different picture !!

  21. Howard Grief’s book is groundbreaking I only wish more people would read it, thankfully I have a copy and read and marked it throughout! some of the best source books are very hard to find, there is a 36 volume A4 size set called ‘The Rise of Israel’ that is a facsimile record of all the most important documents commencing from 1882 up to 1948, edited by H. M. Sachar, M.J.Cohen, A. S. Klieman and Isaiah Freedman.

    • Thank you….I hadn’t heard of it.
      I wonder whether you’ve come across the minutes to the October 31st cabinet meeting of 1917….just 3 days before the Balfour Declaration, in which it was said that the intention was that the Jewish National Home should become the sovereign state of the Jews.
      I tried to source it on the web, but was unsuccessful.
      Does it mention that in “The Rise of Israel”.
      It’s unusual to find someone as knowledgeable as you, and a pleasure!
      Do you have a special interest?

      • Tosca the minutes of the Cabinet Meeting of 31st October 1917 are available to download as a pdf document, (9 pages) by going to the National Archives website, clicking on Documents Online, then Cabinet, then a subject word and date. This particular document is free so it is just a case of clicking it into your basket then proceeding to the checkout. Very easy process should only take you a few minutes.

  22. On the Balfour Declaration, the biography called Balfour: The Last Grandee by R.J.Q. Adams goes into some detail of the background to the Declaration and you may have heard of Leonard Stein’s ‘The Balfour Declaration’ that is also mentioned in Howard Grief’s book, I only have one volume of ‘The Rise of Israel, volume 12 that covers april 1920, the Jerusalem riots and the San Remo Conference, on the details of the 31st Oct 1917 I will have to do some further digging.
    Yes, I am very interested in the history of the Jews, as a Zionist and Bible believer I find the whole subject fascinating.

    • That’s very interesting….I hadn’t heard of either.
      If you do find out about that cabinet meeting which Howard mentions in his book, can you send the info to Richard….he knows me?
      I wonder what you thought of Simon Schama’s Story of the Jews?
      I was dismayed by the last episode which I thought mendacious…he is a Leftie, but it was unforgiveable that a distinguished historian should manipulate the truth to fit his own agenda.
      He must have known that Jewish sovereignty was granted in the whole of Palestine, not just in part of cis Jordan, and did you notice that when he read out the famous letter from Feisal to Felix Frankfurter, he carefully omitted to mention that Feisal looked forward to the Arab state being created alongside Palestine (ie that Palestine was not Arabic), and Feisal said that the Zionist claims (which were to the whole of Palestine) were modest and proper.

      • Nonsense. Read both the Balfour and the San Remo declarations. Neither mentions the whole of Palestine. They both say in Palestine, not in all of Palestine. No amount of Howard Grief spin can change that.
        On top of that, not even the Jewish “nationalists” – the Zionists – had decided the nature of this “national home”, statehood, autonomy or protectorate.

  23. From pages 545-546 of Leonard Stein’s ‘The Balfour Declaration’ there is mention of 31st October 1917 and he refers the reader to Lloyd George’s ‘Treaties’ vol 2 pages 1123ff and 1136ff for the details of that meeting, of which I do not have a copy, but this is only a quick search, hope to post more should I find anything more substantial.
    Schama’s documentary could have gone on for another ten episodes and would only still be showing the tip of the iceberg, good nonetheless as an introduction, there are two volumes to accompany the film, the first goes up to 1492 and the expulsion from Spain, and volume 2 comes out next year and I guess brings us to the present.
    In these matters it is very difficult or well nigh impossible for ones politics or theology to not ‘colour’ the subject somewhat.

    • Thanks so much.
      It was kind of you to take the trouble.
      As to Schama, as personable, erudite and charming as he is—I’ve met him in life– we’ll have to agree to disagree as to his integrity with regard to the last episode.

    • To Chaim Pesach.

      Do you really think that your shallow argument hasn’t been aired before and dealt with by scholars?
      Typical boiler plate response of an ignoramus.
      Yours is a classic case of a little learning is a dangerous thing.
      What are your sources or references?
      David Lloyd George, Prime Minister when the Balfour declaration was issued, specified that the area of Jewish sovereignty was to follow the maps of George Adam Smith, the biblical cartographer.
      It was Smith’s maps that were to be used in determining the borders of Jewish Palestine and which detailed Jewish rule during the times of the Jewish Monarchs and the Second Temple Period

      At the San Remo Conference on the question of boundaries, French diplomat Philippe Berthelot outlined the French position for the northern, eastern and southern frontiers of Syria. As regards Palestine, he said her frontiers would conform to the definition advocated by Lloyd George, who favoured the ancient boundaries of Dan and Beersheba, as previously discussed at the first London Conference of February 1920. This Biblical formula was based on the historical connection of the Jewish People with the entire Land of Israel and was not to be construed literally from Dan to Beersheba, but rather referred in effect to those areas of the Promised Land that had been conquered, settled and ruled by the Twelve Tribes of Israel and their descendants, in both the First and Second Temple periods.
      The minutes of the San Remo Peace Conference drawn up at the session held on April 25, 1920 make it clear that this is what Lloyd George actually meant, as appears from his documented reliance on George Adam Smith’s scholarly works to determine the exact territorial extent of ancient Israelite habitation and rule. He included in Palestine all the land historically settled or occupied by Jews in the First and Second Temple Periods. This is confirmed by the third recital in the Preamble of the Mandate, which refers to the historical connection of the Jewish people with Palestine and is further evidenced by Colonel Richard Meinertzhagen who recalled in his book the statement made by Lloyd George in Paris in 1919 regarding the true meaning of “Palestine”: “The area occupied by the twelve tribes of Israel, from Dan to Beersheba. Middle east Diary.

      • End of the day, Tosca, in neither Balfour nor San Remo is the area of Palestine specified. Probably on purpose.
        Add to that that the contemporaneous Zionist leadership didn’t know what it wanted when it said national home.

  24. http://www.peaceforourtime.org.uk/page68.html

    You may find the paragraph that begins with ‘an early draft’ , of interest.
    concerning 31.10.1917.

    • Thank you very much….it was fascinating….I followed a few of the links.
      The comment by Meinertzhagen when he asked Balfour what his intention was, comes from his diary.
      I didn’t know about the authorship of the Declaration.
      I haven’t yet read Grief’s chapter on it.

    • To Chaim Pesach.
      Again, what’s your source, or do you make things up as you go along?
      The Balfour Declaration and San Remo Resolution are outline documents….you wouldn’t expect details.
      You can make the same accusation about Mesopotamia, for example.
      It’s comments like yours which immediately expose you as profoundly ignorant.
      The reason that the Zionist leadership deliberately did not use the word state was not to incur the wrath of the Ottoman Sultan, who sent a delegate to the first Zionist Congress in Basle to check it out.
      At the time Palestine was under the control of the Ottomans and they certainly didn’t want to relinquish sovereignty to the Jews.
      I’ve just given you the evidence above which disproves what you say.
      If you were to read Meinertzhagen’s diary you would see that he was outraged about Churchill’s illegal decision to lop off 77% of Palestine to give it to an interloper from the Hejaz, land slated for the future Jewish state, and Weitzmann’s reaction to it.

      Give evidence for your revisionist account.
      Put up or shut up.

      • They are not outline documents. They are declarations that Zionists through the ages have clung to as international justification for their state. Neither of the documents says all of Palestine. They state Palestine.
        And there were no more interlopers than the European Jewish colonists.

      • You are an ignoramus and a fool.
        Read Article 6 of the Mandate.
        Also read the judgements of Steven Schwebel (Head of the ICJ) and Eugene Rostow.
        Now go away because I won’t rise to the bait again.

      • Nowhere in any article of the Mandate does it stipulate that the Zionists had a right to all of Palestine. But it does talk about the rights of other sections of the populations.

      • Interesting to see that in Israel, all citizens are granted the same rights, then! Obviously, it won’t be the same in any new Arab state in the area, starting with the right of Jews to live in it. But of course, “Chaim Pesach” or whatever his real name is, does not care.

      • No, Jose – or whatever his name is – they do not enjoy all rights. Non-Jewish citizens suffer appalling discrimination and bias. So they can vote, so what? It isn’t the voting that counts, it’s who does the counting.
        Anyway, never mind, soon all people between the River Jordan ahd the Mediterranean, irrespective of race, creed, colour and gender, will have the same political, religious and civil rights.

      • Now, a ridiculous claim that elections in Israel are rigged, by the pseudo “chaim pesach”. And a clear admission that he is a one-stater, ie a denier of Jewish self-determination, ie an antisemite! Well done!

      • “Chaim Nakba”,

        If only you were to demand of Islamist entities what you demand of Israel.

        Unless you believe that Islamist entities are inherently incapable of being open and free and democratic societies?

      • On the contrary, Jose-Edward, if there is one state between the river and the sea, the Jewish settlers could stay where they are – and the Palestinians would get a say in the state which controls their lives. What’s not to like.
        Israeli elections aren’t rigged; they are just meaningless as far as the religious minorities are concerned. The minorities aren’t taken into consideration, or, in Hebrew: Lo sofrim otam. But then, I doubt you know any Hebrew.

      • Uh-oh! Another paranoia bout fro “chaim pesach.” Plus the usual chants about knowing hebrew, ie personal attacks. No facts given to support another unsupported assertion. Of course, Israel’s democracy is THE ONE that gives minorities the better chance to be represented of all democracies, BAR NONE. Proof is in the electoral system and in the chaos it creates in the Knesset. LOL!

      • Does your mummy know you’ve gone on the computer?

      • Tosca, I think the “chaim pesach” here is the same troll as usual. His “arguments” are always the same: “You don’t speak Hebrew”, “You are a kid”, “I ignore facts and feel much better now”…

    • To Chaim Pesach.
      Der Judenstaat. The Jewish state. Theodor Herzl.
      “Therefore I believe that a wondrous generation of Jews will spring into existence. The Maccabeans will rise again.
      Let me repeat once more my opening words: The Jews who wish for a State will have it. We shall live at last as free men on our own soil, and die peacefully in our own homes”
      The Jewish leadership on 1897 was very clear that it wanted its own, self governing state.

      • Herzl’s was only one view. And at the end of the First World War, the Zionist leadership had yet to decide what they wanted as a National Home.


  26. Gerald thank for the information, I have had a look at the website and found the relevant material, very interesting reading indeed, concerning 31/10/1917. thanks again for posting.

    • To Gerald.
      Thanks for the info….and I’ll try again.
      I remember getting to the relevant page but had difficulty going further.
      I’ll let you know how I fared.
      Howard Grief told me that in those minutes is the declaration of intent that the Jews will have their own state.
      I just want to see it for myself.

    • To Chris,
      Was there anything there that surprised you?

  27. No, but it made very interesting reading because it verifies that there was much caution by the British and the Zionist movement concerning their terminology so as not to upset the Muslim world perhaps, in fact it is almost prophetic how the British envisaged that the Non-Jewish communities would not take to kindly concerning Jerusalem and some Jewish aspirations.

  28. To Tosca,
    Here is an interview with Howard Grief,I also picked up a copy of ‘Middle East Diary’ from Amazon.

    • Thanks Chris,
      I’ve seen it but it was good to see it again.
      BTW I became friends with HG during the last 2 years of his life, and I would often have long distance phone calls with him…he was a powerhouse of knowledge and scholarship.
      Let me know what you think of M E Diary….I hope you didn’t pay to much for it….there’s a huge price range .

  29. Hi Tosca,
    I am pleased you met Howard Grief, his works deserve to be widely read, as to the Middle East Diary; purchased one for just under thirty pounds considering the phenomenal prices it reaches! Will post again when I have had a look at it.

  30. To Tosca,
    I have had a look through my copy of ‘Middle East Diary’ and it certainly looks like a vital piece of documentation, thanks for the recommendation, well worth having.

    • Last night I went to a talk given by an amateur historian on the Balfour Declaration.
      He had never heard of Grief or Meinertzhagen.
      He therefore came to the wrong conclusion, namely that the British offered Palestine to both Arabs and Jews with equal intent.
      Of course, once Balfour left office in 1919 and was replaced by Lord Curzon who was unsympathetic to Zionist aspirations, the British intentions regarding a future Jewish state were sabotaged from then on until the present day.
      Do you remember in Grief’s book a little gem….namely the radio broadcast given by Lloyd George on May 23 1939, six days after the “infamous” white paper of Malcolm McDonald which slammed the doors shut to Jewish immigration to Palestine at the time of greatest need.
      In it he said that the Balfour D was not given out of our “abundant grace”, but was part of the deal made between Britain and world Jewry for its support in WW1.
      Lloyd George said that the White Paper was both illegal and immoral, and henceforth the British word would never again be trusted.
      He said with some irony, that he knew something about the BD because he was PM when it was given.

  31. Howard Grief has done an excellent job and great service to anyone who will take the time to read his highly detailed documentary evidence, on pages 406-407 is where Lloyd George gives his radio broadcast concerning the 1939 White Paper.

    Professor Efraim Karsh’s book, ‘Palestine Betrayed’ also brings out the history, development and reactions to the 1939 White Paper (especially pages 57-59) from Weizmann to Churchill.