Dana Levy: Hells Angels 2002
I went to a recent talk given by Dr. Anat Matar on her recent visit to London.
Dr Matar is a senior lecturer in the Department of Philosophy at Tel Aviv University.
She is also an Israeli citizen who wants the world to boycott Israel.
She is a member of Who Profits? Exposing the Israeli Occupation Industry.
Dr. Matar feels that the only way to end Israel’s occupation of the West Bank is for there to be an economic, cultural and academic boycott of her own country.
Imagine boycotting yourself! Would any Brit or American call for a boycott of their respective countries over Afghanistan or Iraq?
Only a courageous, caring and unselfish person would even contemplate this, surely?
Her son, Hagai, spent two years in an Israeli prison for refusing to enlist.
At her talk at SOAS Dr. Matar outlined the three main objections that her friends on the radical anti-Zionist left have to a boycott:
1. The time hasn’t come yet:
She addressed this concern by saying that all Israelis profit from the occupation including the working class and Arab Israelis: “The shrinking of the military industry, which supports so many families, may cause many to suffer but it is necessary.”
And she questioned why we should boycott Israel and not America or Britian over Afghanistan. She said: “The boycott is pragmatic. It is ridiculous not to take action against one country just because others are immune. And maybe if the boycott succeeds it may touch on the policies of these other countries.”
2. There is something hypocritical and anti-semitic in the boycott campaign:
She understood this argument and said we must be watchful and that “I am not going to go back to Lithuania”. (Dr Matar believes in the end of the Jewish state and so I wonder how she can be so sure that she would never have to go back to Lithuania since Muslim countries have ejected nearly all their one million indigenous Jews. If Israel became “secular and democratic” and, ultimately, a Muslim country she could well be on her way back to Lithuania).
3. Supporting a boycott replaces genuine activism:
She said that all the varying approaches to attacking Israel should be considered and each organisation should unite and then consider which approach is best.
For example, choose particular campaigns like boycotting merchandise made in the occupied territories but not the Tate Modern’s exhibition of Israeli video installations that is taking place this weekend in London.
Guy Ben-Ner: If only it was as Easy to Banish Hunger by Rubbing the Belly as it is to Masturbate 2009
“Don’t boycott this. You have to look at the names of the Israeli artists. Some of them are refusniks and great anti-Zionists,” Dr. Matar said.
But audience members shouted “this is part of ‘brand Israel’ and its campaign for normalisation” and “why are they coming here?” and “Why are these artists accepting money from the vile Israeli government?”
Poor Anat. Her own supporters attacking their boycott heroine.
She tried to put across her ethical argument and explained how hard it is to be an artist in Israel: “You can’t make a film or be a dancer without taking money from the Israeli government. If you are rich you are alright but if you are poor and an artist and support the occupation what do you do? They can’t give up their lives. If they support the boycott it will finish their careers”.
I then realised how wrong I was.
I had honestly respected Dr Matar. However misguided, she actually seemed to be willing to sacrifice herself for what she perceived to be the greater good of Israel and the Palestinian people; an academic boycott in which even she would suffer.
But in effect she was calling for an academic and cultural boycott just so long as those who are against the occupation are not affected which, conveniently, includes herself.
So in a nutshell her message to the world is: “Boycott Israel, boycott all Israeli academics but please don’t boycott me.”
Dr. Matar isn’t as courageous as she would like people to think she is.
Meanwhile, you can make your way down to the Tate Modern this weekend and see what Israeli artists have to say about Israel through their art.
Miri Segal: Be right back 2007
RichardMillett's Blog 
This is an excellent article and a terrific analysis!
Thank you!
BDS is the only way to attach a price tag to the Occupation. Right now the cost to Israel of maintaining the status quo is almost zero. The cost however of changing the status quo is much higher: it’d probably cost Bibi his political career (which is currently built on a coalition with hardliners) and there’s the considerable cost of withdrawing large numbers of settlers, the perceived ‘security risks’ etc.
Unless the average Israeli, currently largely in a coma with regards to the Occupation and ‘Peace’, is made to pay a price for this Occupation and things start hurting, there will be no inclination to move in any direction. Without steadily increased BDS efforts and an increased drip-drip-drip effect of bad publicity, Israelis won’t realise that it’ll cost more to maintain the current state of affairs than to start acting. BDS is the only way to try and redress the enormous power imbalance between a powerful state and a desperate, stateless and powerless people (a people that, by and large, has renounced violent struggle).
Do you think the Brits, French, Americans or whatever would be so more inclined to make peace than the Israelis, when faced with a similar situation (it’s a rhetorical question, BTW)? No motive, no motion.
The partial settlement ‘freeze’ of 10 months will fly by like the 42 years before it, already 2 months have passed and nothing’s budging. This is what Israel does best: buy time. But when time starts costing, buying it will become costly…
Hi Gert
The other person who wants to maintain the occupation is, of course, Mahmoud Abbas.
Just like Arafat knew, Abbas knows that without Israel there he would be immediately hanged in Ramallah’s central square by Hamas.
Richard:
You’re really scraping the barrel now (as well as completely ignoring my point). Everything boils down to Hamas, eh? They really potty trained you well at Hasbara school…
Hasbara school is very expensive, Gert. You have no idea.
As for the occupation you have to convince the average Israeli that pulling out of the West Bank won’t lead to them being blown up on the streets of Tel Aviv.
I am sure that Netanyahu would be happy to have his political career ruined if he could secure peace. He’d make millions giving speeches instead.
As for Hamas, what would you say their doctrine is towards Jews and Israel?
Richard:
If I understand you correctly, the West Bank settlements are a security measure, designed to protect Tel Aviv? They’re not a source of 42 years of frustration leading to Palestinian resistance to them?
Re. Hamas’ intentions, have you read Likud’s Platform?
It doesn’t get much clearer than that.
As regards:
Don’t be ridiculous. Politicians want power, there’s plenty of time for lucrative speeches in retirement. Much more lucrative if you can leave behind a ‘successful’ legacy. As far as Netanyahu’s concerned, ‘peace’ means complete Palestinian subjugation, ‘benign’ occupation forever.
Palestinian/Arab resistance started a long, long time before any settlement appeared. Settlements are not the issue. Israel’s existence is.
Likud: I agree. It is bad. Netanyahu has verbally modified that stance as you know. They should now change the Charter. Fatah’s Charter, I believe, has also not changed. Anyway most Israelis voted for Kadima. That said what about Hamas and the vitriolic anti-Semitism that riddles its charter and, especially, article 8 that talks about killing Jews? Hamas and Hezbollah are not anti-Israel per se, they are both anti-Semites. And before you accuse me of using the anti-Semitism label quite liberally, i don’t. I do not equate anti-Zionism necessarily with anti-Semitism, eventhough many do. But Hamas, via its Charter, admits it hates Jews. I do not understand why people defend Hamas when Hamas admits it.
You seem to know Netahyahu’s mind very well. I would submit that BN would rather be PM of a country without occupation than PM of a country with it.
Hi Richard,
Palestinian resistance started when European Jews started arriving in Palestine in large numbers. The Zionist intentions weren’t exactly a secret. Had, say West Yorkshiremen tried to do the same in East Yorkshire, the latter would have resisted the take-over just same. The Occupation usually refers to 1967, yet started in 1948 and well before that.
Hamas has also modified its stance considerably but you fail to recognise that. Hamas has stated also very publicly and repeatedly that their fight is with the Occupation, not with the Jewish People. In I/P both sides routinely refer to each other as ‘Jews’ and ‘Arabs’, that doesn’t mean they are referring to the entire groups. If was Palestinian I would refer to Israeli Jews as ‘Jews’, by manner of speech.
And yes, there are antisemitic Arabs, no question about it. But there are Arab-haters in Israel too. And Arab/Muslim-hating supporters in the Zionism supporting part of the blogosphere are a plenty (my file’s about the size of the Humber bridge!) Anti-Muslim/anti-Arab feelings run very deep in Western societies, including Israel, since 9/11.
As regards Hezbollah, any country that suffered a brutal occupation by any other country would develop a resistance movement against that occupation and future ones. Hezbollah is now more popular in Lebanon that ever before. Even ‘baby Hariri’ considers them part of Lebanon’s system of defence against Israel.
If BN really would prefer to be the PM of a country without Occupation then he has a poor way of showing it (planting trees in settlements, anyone?)
Kadima? Kadima – Likud: that strikes me almost as a ‘distinction without a difference’… You yourself claim there’s no Left left in Israel and on that we can agree…
Gert, even to suggest that the occupation started before 1948 sounds suspicious i have to say. The Jews came to the Ottoman Empire to escape the pogroms in eastern Europe. The Jews had no bad intentions. They just wanted self-determination, like all other peoples. There was no Palestinian consciousness at the time and certainly no state.
The Ottoman Empire was divided into loads of Arab states and the large indigenous Middle Eastern Jewish population, in additon to the eastern European Jews, were deservedly and justly recognised with their own state also. The Jewish population had been in the Middle East as long as all the other people.
And a nice attempted defence of Hamas. If you read the Hamas Charter you will see references to Jews stretching back hundreds of years and blaming Jews for virtually all the negative moments in the world. They haven’t moderated their stance on Israel (you have yet to prove it) and their Charter attacks Jews. And what is it about “Israel will remain an Islamic waqf” that is so unclear to you?
As for Hezbollah, your reason for its creation is quite reductionist. The Lebanese civil war, which started in 1975, is more complicated than you make out. You cannot pin it on Israel. Hezbollah is a shia terrorist organisation funded by Iran and was created after the 1979 revolution for multiple reasons benefitting Iran.
Richard:
You really are one of the few Zionists who invoke the Holocaust as a main drive for the creation of Israel. Zionism dates back to at least the end of the 19th Century.
For a closer understanding of the relationship between Zionism, the Holocaust and Nazism I warmly recommend this resource by Tony Greenstein.
Your “The Ottoman Empire was divided into loads of Arab states” makes it sound so lovely. In reality the colonial powers carved up the ME in their own interest (it’s what the powerful do). Much of the fault lines in the ME today remain the result of slicing it up as if it was a cake. Syria and Iraq once had a plan to reunite. The curious relationship between Syria and Lebanon also results from French (in this case) divide and rule. Saddam’s illegitimate claim to Kuwait finds its roots in post-colonialism, not to mention its sectarian fault lines.
The ‘re-establishment’ of Israel on Arab lands was about as desirable over there as it would have been anywhere else.
If Hamas’ fight really is with the Jewish People then why is their struggle contained to Israel/Palestine? It would be so easy to take that fight elsewhere (more easy than in Israel/Palestine). Why not go murder/kidnap/torture some Zionist Jews anywhere in the world? Or just some Jews tout court? They could go and blame Zionism for it or simply point to their charter.
From Jewbonics (Max Ajl, who’s just made it into Gaza):
My own interview with a Gazan woman (but not a Hamas supporter) regarding Hamas, here.
Oh, but I can. Complicated as Hezbollah’s formative years may have been, there is no question that it’s main function today is the first line of defense of South Lebanon. They also have no intention of intervening in any peace process and would welcome a two state solution.
Gert, I edited my comment about the Holocaust, i admit, so you may not have seen it. I didn’t intend to imply that the Holocaust was what led to Israel’s creation. It was the final catalyst so to speak but Zionism was first written about in around the 1840s by a couple of rabbis. They didn’t call it Zionism then. The noun came 50 years later. The two rabbis wrote about returning to their homeland and fighting for Jewish self-determination there like the Italiens, Serbs, Germans etc. were doing in their own lands.
I am sure Tony has some interesting arguments and will have a read later. Thanks.
Yes, it was sliced up but there are still many Arab countries and as i said the jewish population also had a right to be recognised. Why are you so determined to allow one people their rights but not the Jewish people? There were at least 1,000,000 indigenous Jews in the Middle East.
Hezbollah does Hamas’ dirty work for them. Witness the early 1990s Jewish community centre and Israeli consulate attacks in Argentina. Argentine summonses are out against politicians in Iran for these.
Yea, heard it all before about Hamas not having a problem with Jews. I refer you back to their Charter.
We have to agree to disagree over Hezbollah’s role in Lebanon. Lebanon is two countries. North of the Litani and south of the Litani. The south is Hezbollahland, not Lebanon.
I agree with you about the tree. I edited that also. I apologise. The tree shouldn’t have been done by BN.
I think that most of it is about politics. I think that Fatah and Likud have bargaining positions that they won’t diverge from until they think the other part will play ball otherwise they are revealing their hands. I hope this is true anyway.
Hamas is another story. They are totally immoral and racist and will not cease their fight until Israel is destroyed. That is what they mean about having no problem with the Jews ie. Jews without a state.
Thanks for this, and all your attending such events, Richard. I’m not sure I understand what Matar was saying, but I will read through it again.
hi Zkharya. Basically Matar, an Israeli academic, wants the world to boycott Israel.
There are 3 arguments though that her friends/colleagues are concerned with as to why there should not be a boycott of Israel.
She addresses each concern and states why Israel should be boycotted but then she says that don’t boycott every Israeli.
Basically, you are right. It was a complicated talk but then again Matar is a complicated person.
Richard,
I reacted to your comments as I received them by email notification. I’ve now read your edits too.
You have a source for the 1,000,000 Arab Jews that you claim? Sure Jews were indigenous to the area but such large numbers?
Historian and investigative journalist Gareth Porter. But in the Iran/US relationship of misinformation/disinformation I really don’t know what to believe. Assume however that you’re right and Hezbollah carried out the attack, then why point the finger at Hamas? That’s pure guilt by association. It would be like claiming that Kahanists do the dirty work of some Radical (but non-violent) Jewish settlers: either they’re directly implicated or they’re not.
Your view on Lebanon is cartoonish and by now increasingly outdated: the country is striving hard towards national unity. Hezbollah will remain a considerable political force in that country.
As regards the rights of the Jewish people, they would be entirely intact in a ‘one man, one woman, one vote, one state’ situation. Zionism has made a two state solution near impossible. You yourself agree that evacuating nearly 450,000 settlers will be nigh impossible. Let them stay and let everyone live where they want to.
Gert, whatever source I use you will rubbish. The number is commonly accepted but i will give you the most basic source which is wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_Arab_lands
I will gladly firm up the sources if you wish but a cursory glance at the internet will reveal the numbers involved.
Maybe Hamas has trouble getting out of Gaza. We have seen how suicide bombings have dropped totally since the wall was built. It doesn’t mean they have not got the intent to kill Jews overseas. If they can walk into a coffee shop in Tel Aviv and blow women and children to high heaven i have no doubt they would do it in a Jewish area of Paris if they hade the opportunity.
I don’t believe you about the rights of the Jewish people. They have always been treated as inferiors when a minority under Muslim rule. Look at Iran as a modern example. Iran apart, Jews were treated as dhimmis. And in a OSS Jews would soon become a minority once again.
Then all the laws, culture etc. would be set b Muslims. The Jews would then be in the same situation as they were 200 years ago. It just isn’t going to happen without a lot of blood being spilled.
This is about national self-determination anyway. The Jews have a right to determine their own laws, culture, language etc just like the Palestinians do in their own state. Two nations have no need or desire to live together.
Land swaps are the only way forward as Clinton proposed. This is the commonly accepted way to a possible peace.
But really, as I keep saying, this isn’t about settlements anyway. It is about the destruction of Israel using any means whatsoever, whether by military force or supposed “democratic” means.
You invoke human rights but your intention is the destruction of the Jewish state so it is irrelevant to you how many Jews were living on the Middle East anway eventhough there were always far more Jews than Palestinians living there.
The protection of minorities is quite a recent development, also in the West (you seem to gloss over the fact that the Holocaust was committed by Europeans, not Mid Easteners or Muslims and that treatment of Jews in Christian Europe was at times truly appalling). It’s silly to even try and compare a concept of say ‘Dhimmitude’ (which is of course what you’re referring to) to the treatment of minorities in modern times.
This attitude shows just how much Zionism relies on function creep. The War of 1967 was supposed to be a pre-emptive one. 42 years later most Zionists agree that the settlements (which they actively encouraged and financed to come into being) can now not be evacuated and a new round of negotiations involving hitherto not yet discussed land swaps must take place. Meanwhile, when the settlement freeze will be over in less than 8 months or so, further encroachment on the West Bank and J’sem can then continue. All this does is play into Israel’s hands and they know that.
Now you’re not just being plain wrong (in historic Palestine Jews were indeed a minority – not that it matters) but also plain offensive and accusatory beyond belief. You’ve managed for all of this discussion (well, up to now!) to refrain from accusing me of antisemitism, yet now you’re accusing me of something far worse: seeking the destruction of Israel and thus another Holocaust! Being called an antisemite would be bad enough, being told having premeditated intentions for mass-murder of Jewish Israelis is quite another.
Unfortunately, this happens all too often: with committed Zionists in most cases the opponent ultimately gets accused of murderous intent.
Thanks for that. If ending this conversation was your goal, consider mission accomplished.
Gert, I never accused you of wishing mass-murder in the slightest! And there has never, ever been a hint of anti-Semitism from you. I was referring to the destruction of the Jewish state through what I called “supposed ‘democratic’ means”.
I meant that I feel that your narrative of ‘one man, one woman, one vote, one state’ is a way of destroying the Jewish state but that doesn’t mean any Jews would be killed. This is in contrast to military force where many would die.
Either way it would be the end of the Jewish state. Your view is that there shouldn’t be a Jewish state and that is fine. I just don’t agree with you.
As for land swaps, there is no alternative. You cannot withdraw 350,000 people and anyway few Israeli citizens would vote for it, which is what would have to happen for it to occur.
Israelis don’t want those settlements to go as they don’t want rockets landing on Tel Aviv. So it is a Catch-22 situation.
Yes, Jews have been treated extremely badly in Chistian countries. Absolutely! It is sickening and unforgivable. That doesn’t mean to say they haven’t been treated badly by Muslims also (albeit on a far smaller scale).
In Iraq the treatment of Jews was appalling. I will try to locate a thesis to send you on it. There was the Farhud in 1942 where Jews were massacred at the behest of the authorities.
And as for there being 1,000,000 Middle Eastern Jews that gives them a right to have a land especially as they were treated so badly by their Muslim rulers.
Great post, Rich!
And don’t apologise to Gert. You were always flogging a dead horse there.
You just have to read the “About Me” on Gert’s blog to discover his obsession with Israel and the Jews: “Since Gaza and until further notice this blog will be dedicated to the Palestinian people’s struggle for statehood.”
Like there is nothing else going on in the world for him to write about!
And, the moment you got warm to Gert’s motives (if a dead horse can have motives!), he – surprise, surprise – terminated the dialogue.
Richard:
OK then. Remember though that the term “destruction” really does reek of physical destruction and annihilation.
Hmmm… very strong language again. ‘unforgivable’? That smacks of the descendants of the persecuted holding the descendants of the persecutors over a barrel for all of eternity. Even if my father had been a Nazi (he wasn’t, to be clear: he was about 10 when the war broke out), I’m not. The only personal responsibility I feel is that of ensuring genocide can’t occur again, to anyone.
MelchettMike:
Do try and engage brain before keyboard, Sir.
Obviously you haven’t read Richard’s clarification.
If there’s anything that typifies a flyweight Zionist like you it would be the following aphorism from a fellow blogger (Ernie Halfdram):
It would appear to be just hunky dory for you to dedicate your blog feeding your “obsession with Israel and the Jews” but not for anyone else. Also, try and get it through your thick skull: Jews and Zionism aren’t the same thing at all.
Gert, for someone seemingly so terrified of being labelled an “anti-Semite”, you are very quick to label others.
My (to use your words) “obsession with Israel and the Jews” is rather more comprehensible then yours with Israel and the Palestinians. I am a Jew and a Zionist, living in Israel (and, incidentally, extremely proud of all three). You, on the other hand, I believe are a German living in Sheffield. How do you explain your obsession?
I return to the preface to your blog: “Since Gaza and until further notice this blog will be dedicated to the Palestinian people’s struggle for statehood.”
You maybe be surprised to learn that I am both as educated and as intelligent as you seem to consider yourself. But I need call on neither my education nor intelligence, merely my experience, to explain your obsession.
And we would all respect you more if you were honest enough to come clean about it.
melchettmike:
Firstly, I’m of Flemish descent, not German. I live in East Yorkshire (but not Sheffield). Facts aren’t your strongest suit.
Secondly, you start from a false premise, namely my alleged ‘obsession’.
I happen to believe that for a just solution (whatever form this may take) of the I/P conflict to be achieved, pressure needs to be exerted on Israel. I’ve explained that also in the thread. Well, I’m an infinitesimally small part of that pressure: an ocean is made up of many drops.
As some Israeli’s are asking: ‘save us from ourselves’, in many senses that’s what the pro-boycott movement is trying to achieve.
I wrote that “I believe” you are German. Attention to detail isn’t your strongest. Anyway, my point is unaffected.
The preface to your blog is evidence enough of your obsession. Here it is again: “Since Gaza and until further notice this blog will be dedicated to the Palestinian people’s struggle for statehood.”
Do you really need me to give you a list of all the conflicts between people in the world? But no! You choose to focus exclusively on the Jews. What a strange coincidence!
That leaves me in little doubt as to your true motives, Gert, whether you are conscious of them or not. We can smell your sort a mile off.
Mike:
How many more times are you going to reprint my own motto?
My beef is with Zionism and in particular its treatment of Palestinians, not Jews, Jewry or Judaism. Zionism wants to conflate the two but I don’t and you should ask the many of your brethren who strongly disapprove of that too why not.
You must live in a sad world, one in which those who try and make a small contribution to alleviating the suffering and oppression of the Palestinians is automatically suspected of something underhand. As you put it so eloquently: ‘we can smell your sort a mile off’. If anything like that was said about even an individual Jew, all hell would break loose.
Now unless you have something relevant and non-ad hom to say (what you think of me really leaves stone-cold: you don’t know me from Adam) I won’t respond to your trolling anymore.
And here’s our racist troll in action: a British Jew who imports his ridiculous British Francophobia into Tel Aviv, yet has the gall to imply others may be racist for supporting Palestinian statehood:
Mike, you’re an imbecile, as well as a hypocrite and Zionist.
Why are you so seemingly ashamed of “[your] own motto”, Gert?
Zionism is no more distinct from Judaism than living in Germany is for many Germans.
Israelis and Palestinians have both committed wrongs . . . but that doesn’t explain your obsession with Israel, to the exclusion of all else.
Read your own words . . . again: “Since Gaza and until further notice this blog will be dedicated to the Palestinian people’s struggle for statehood.”
It is not my world, but your obsession, which is “sad”.
Who said anyone was “racist for supporting Palestinian statehood”? I support it!
I won’t call lower myself to childish name-calling, Gert (though thank you for labelling me a “Zionist” . . . I am one, and proud!)
But those who are obsessed with bashing Israel, to the exclusion of all else, ARE anti-Semites.
Read your post about the French again, you nutcase… Unbelievable that someone who claims to fight antisemitism indulges in such horridly racist language about another people.
Blatant racism as a virtue: you’re bonkers…
We really are very abusive this evening, aren’t we Gert?!
When did I “claim to fight antisemitism”?
Most of my post is in humour – you sure you’re not German?! – though, no, I am not mad about the French.
There you go. It didn’t hurt. Why can’t you be equally honest about your feelings about Jews . . . instead of bullshitting us all?!
It’s humourless quatch: it appears you can take the Little Ingelander (a bigoted Brit) out of Albion but you can’t take the racist out of the Little Ingelander.
You’re a despicable nutter. You sad, sad, little man…
Hey, I hadn’t even read the comment section of your ‘French post’ yet! Also priceless. You racist piece of sh*t…
Very angry, Gert. VERY angry. I would blame the Jews!
The difference between you and me is that I have never claimed to be something that I am not . . . or rather not claimed to be something that I am!
My blog makes it very clear that it is not PC (http://melchettmike.wordpress.com/about-this-blog/).
Your blog, however, makes no admission at all of anti-Semitism . . . though, as I say, the trained nose (big and hooked, Gert!) can smell it a mile off.
5 posts of his ago, Gerty wrote the following:
“I won’t respond to your trolling anymore.”
I love it!
Mikey:
Scrutinise my blog from top to bottom. You won’t find a single expression of racism there, not one. No antisemitism either. You however nail your colours to the mast with great gusto. I see you’ve got it in for ‘self-hating Jews’ as well, says it all really…
I think you really a just a dumb f*ck, racists and British Gallicphobes usually are…
Your entire blog “from top to bottom” is dedicated to bashing Israel. Five years of it!
Its preface reads “Since Gaza and until further notice this blog will be dedicated to the Palestinian people’s struggle for statehood.”
And there is large link reading “BOYCOTT ISRAEL” with a cross over our flag.
And you claim not to be a “racist”!
Who is the “dumb f*ck”?!
You’ve given me something to write about, Mikey. I’ve met some real dumb British racists but you’re close to taking the biscuit.
Gerty, you are being very insulting. And I don’t see why I should have to take it, when I have not (yet) personally abused you.
You wrote above: “Even if my father had been a Nazi (he wasn’t, to be clear: he was about 10 when the war broke out), I’m not.”
I am merely speculating here, but could your blog be a way of making sure that – unlike him – you don’t miss out?
You are obsessed with Jews!
You’ve been spoofed, you nutter…
Thanks for the traffic! I’ll be sure to respond in kind . . . though with the gloves off this time!
Looks like you’ve got “previous”, Gertie!
http://advant.blogspot.com/2009/09/quinton-tarantinos-inglorious-bastards.html
Search: “Gert”
Mikey:
You could find far, far worse allegations directed at me if you looked properly. Anti-Zionism = anti-Semitism, right? Since as so many seem to believe that, critics of Zionism/Israel get to hear it ad nauseam. It comes with the territory. I’m really pleased for ya, you’ve found another ‘antisemite’…
Here’s your little piece of ‘humour’ on the French, but substituting ‘French’ with ‘Jew’, ‘Jewish’ or equivalent. Do you still think it’s funny?
And Mikey, here’s a word of friendly advice. If you think of quoting ‘Sentinel’, think again. Sentinel’s grudge about me is due to me and a former friend of mine, Bacon Eating Atheist Jew (blogspot, look it up), exposing Sentinel as the rabid racist that he is: White Supremacist, virulent antisemite, Holocaust minimiser, homophobe and former Nazi sympathiser. A BNP supporter. You’ll find many skirmishes and feuds between Sentinel, me and BEAJ over Sentinel’s rabid antisemitism and general racism, both at my blog and at BEAJ’s blog.
Thanks for the “friendly advice”, Gertie. But who and whatever he is, The Sentinel’s words still apply: “Gratuitous personal attacks and baseless argumentum ad honimen are an inhibitor of real debate; it is the mark of a low intelligence, thuggish fanatic who has no real idea of what they ‘believe’ in, no ability to debate and no defensible position.”
And FJ (or is he also all of the things that you accuse The Sentinel of?!) wrote: “You’ll notice how quickly Gert reaches for [the word “racist”] whenever the “chosen one” finds himself on the receiving end of a little political heat.”
I am happy to continue if you want me to (there is a lot worse in there about you). But, as I say, Gertie, you have “form”.
Yes, it is true, there are many things I don’t like about the French, and my post is open about them. I am not ashamed of it. Otherwise, I wouldn’t have posted it on my blog. Though it is your right not to find it funny. Even racist. Once again, my About this Blog contains a very clear “un-PC” warning.
One could certainly write such a piece about Jews and/or Israelis – my blog is, in places, extremely critical of both – and most other national, ethnic, or religious groups (though merely substituting “Jew” for “Frenchman” – as, for some reason, you did on your blog too – doesn’t really achieve the desired effect . . . though feel free).
In spite of all your abuse, this is nothing personal . . . I am genuinely interested as to why a former company director living in Bridlington is so obsessed with Zionists to the exclusion of all and everyone else.
Why can’t you rise about the name-calling – and telling me what I already know (i.e., that I dislike many things about the French and must therefore be a “racist”) – to explain why, if you are not an anti-Semite (as you claim), you have devoted the last FIVE YEARS of blogging to Zionists . . . to the exclusion of everyone and everything else?
The question genuinely interests me.
Mike:
It’s very easy to pull a quote by Sentinel out of context and jump to conclusions. Sentinel is the reason why I have to engage comment moderation every night: because of continued harassment by this utter imbecile.
Now go to Judeophobe Watch, a blog owned by the aforementioned blogger BEAJ. Scroll down to below the fold, where on the right you’ll find the aptly named rubric:
JOOOO PARANOID IMBECILES INTERNET CIRCUS FREAKS
In that rubric you’ll find:
Mentally Ill Hypocrite from Britain
That, Mike, is blogger Sentinel (‘Truth at Sentinel’). He has since deleted his blog (I can prove that too: he says so himself) allegedly because he got ‘death threats’. Well, not from me he didn’t (and he never claimed so either).
Now scroll up a bit, still to the right you’ll find Judeophobe Watch’s regular blogroll and who features there? Me.
Ask yourself why.
So Mike, your words “The Sentinel’s words still apply:” are words you would NEVER utter if you actually knew this character just a liiittle. You might as well quote David Duke, as far as I’m concerned…
As regards Farmer John (FJ), he’s a Conservative American homophobic bigot who claims AIDS is a gay disease. When challenged he dismisses me as ‘politically correct’. LOL.
Ad hom, BTW, is a two way street. Without knowing hardly anything about me and totally on a whim, you’d already concluded I must be a Jew hater. You don’t consider that ad hom? I’ll come back to your charge later.
Regarding your gallicphobic piece, the solution is simple: take it down and I will follow suit immediately. You cannot dismiss this as merely ‘humour’: the anti-French canards you roll out in that piece are equivalent to some of the worst antisemitic canards that still survive in some racist circles. Mike, what’s good for the goose is good for the gander.
Now, regarding my alleged antisemitism, firstly you state repeatedly “you have devoted the last FIVE YEARS of blogging to Zionists . . . to the exclusion of everyone and everything else?”.
Already, that’s a gross and jingoistic inaccuracy, as my motto shows: it was after the War on Gaza I shifted from critical supporter of Israel to anti-Zionist activist. Prior to Gaza my blog was about a lot of things: the Internet (which is where the title comes from), Science, politics, atheism, the Iraq war, miscellaneous and yes, some 25 % about the I/P conflict too.
The blogosphere is chocker block full of blogs dedicated to Zionism and Israel/Palestine alone, whether it is in a supportive or in a critical role. Do you consider all these people ‘semitophiles’ or ‘antisemites’? What about bloggers that dedicate their entire blogs to a particular subject, no matter how petty, are they ‘obsessive’ too?
Mike, whether Israel and her supporters like it or not, in the eyes of many (and our numbers are growing fast), Gaza really was the straw that broke the camel’s back. People are running out of patience regarding Israel’s behaviour which appears, if anything, to get worse rather than better. People? That’s definitely Jews and non-Jews alike.
Now you can try and dismiss all this as a mysterious bout of suddenly increased antisemitism and that’s your right. But it’s my right to disagree with you on that.
Gert, I am not “tak[ing anything] down”!
Would you remove the very many posts that offend me from your blog if I viciously abused you on my blog (melchett mike) and then held you to ransom?!
It sounds like we can, at least, have a civilised dialogue. If you wish to keep the out-of-context personal insults aimed at me on your blog, that is a matter for you.
As for the rest of the questions/issues you have just raised, and this entire episode, I will deal with it on melchett mike.
And rest assured, Gert, that – even in spite of your vicious abuse of me on your blog – I will do so without malice, and in the interests of discussion. There is an interesting issue at the heart of all this . . .
Mike:
Please spare me your sanctimoniousness: I gave as good as I got. You practically called me a Nazi, ferchrissakes…
As regards civilised debate, that’s exactly what Richard and I were having here until you came along.
More civilised debate on this blog here.
I agree very much with Gert and it is clear that Mike is too brainwashed to be looking objectively at the behaviour of the fascist Israeli occupation in Palestine.
We are made very strong by Gert’s brave words and enjoy to read how he is beating Mike in all arguments.
My English is still not the best and I thank you for this opportunity. I am living in occupied Palestine nearer to where Mike is living and invite him to come to my house and my life and see if he still thinks to be a Zionist. If he was understanding how we are living I swear he will change his mind.
We do not hate the Jews, we have many good Jew friends, but we hate Zionism. You complain about the Holocaust but now you do just as worse to us.
Hi Gamil
I am very sorry for your situation but you cannot blame your situation always on Zionism. Zionism was produced by the Jewish people so it is a Jewish idea. Most, but not all, Jews agree with Zionism.
You could also maybe question your own leaders for what is going on in Palestine.
Your leaders will never accept a Jewish state so, sadly, your terrible situation, which I sympathise with, will go on.
Do you accept a Jewish state?
Also, please do accept that what is happening to you, terrible as it is, is no Holocaust. In the Holocaust 6,000,000 Jews and millions of gypsies, homosexuals, communists etc were tortured and executed.
Thank you for your comment and I hope we can talk more.
Best wishes,
Richard
ps you should post this comment on Mike’s site also.
Richard,
I have not any arguments with you because you are living not in Israel. We say that Jews that lives in England or the US or Russia are fine but they don’t have to come to Palestine to live. We have a joke that all good Zionists should live afar way.
We did not make the holocaust so why are they (Zionists) punishing us and colonizing Palestine? They came to Palestine to run away from the Germans who did not want them also, but now they are friends with the Germans and hate us.
You ask if I will accept the Jewish state? We say that no answer is an answer so I will say that if the Jews behaves properly of course we will accept you. Mabe you don’t know but a lot of the Jews were living in Arab countries for lots of years and nobody has hurt them and they made a lot of money too.
Best Wishes,
Gamil
Hi Gamil
You did not make the Holocaust but then again the Mufti of Jerusalem went to try to help Hitler, as you may well know.
But really there should be two states; One for the Jews and one for the Palestinians. There should have been a Palestinian state in 1948 but the Arabs rejected United Nations Resolution 181.
As for the Jews living in Arab countries they were very hurt. There are now only 5,000 Jews left in Arab countries and there were 1,000,000 sixty years ago. They were expelled and lost most of their possessions. The Farhud was only one example of the violence against the Jews of Arab countries:
http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/article.php?lang=en&ModuleId=10007277
Hi Richard and I have some questions;
1. Why will you not make the Jewish state in Europe or in the US? We see most Jews are preferring to live in those places and are only coming to Palestine because the Germans killed them (they are claiming) or Obama doesn’t like them either or because they had no food in Russia?
2. Why are you thinking that everyone hates you? Europeans, Arabs, Obamas. Mabe you are not so correct about everything that you are thinking?
3. The Jews are saying that they wanted a ‘Jewish State’, but a lot of Israelis are not behaving as Jews? As example, next week they all come to us to buy pita and bread? They are trying to be like Americans, but now the Americans hate them also.
We say that ‘A man tries to be as a donkey untill the donkey kicks his buttom.’
2.
Hi Gamil
I like your questions. These are my answers to you:
1. Jews mainly love to live in Israel. There are 5.25 million in Israel, more than in any other country. Jews feel, like Palestinians, that Israel and where you are living is the Jewish homeland because until 2,000 years ago there was a Jewish state there until it was destroyed by the Romans. That is why the Jews want a Jewish state again in one part and the Palestinian people should have a state in the other part. Every people should have a place to call their own. A home is where people can feel safe and secure and create and live by their own culture, rules and customs. I hope one day that the Palestinians can have their own state next to Israel and that the Palestinians and Israelis will be friends.
2. Jews don’t feel everyone hates them, although after persecution by Christians and, more recently, Muslims there are thoughts that this could be true. When 6,000,000 of your people have been murdered in the Holocaust you can understand that there is a sense of insecurity and a desire to have a safe place to live.
3. Yes, a brilliant question. That is religion for you! They are Jewish but they are not religious Jews. My Muslims friends in the UK drink alcohol but I think that alcohol is forbidden to be drunk by Islam? In religion people choose how much they wish to do i think. It is their own choice.
Richard,
You talk in very intelligently and moderatly way. I know that you wasn’t voting for Netanyahu. Is this allright?
I hope soon they should have a lot of men as you and not Mike (that he is very extremist) because I am sure we can make a piece together.
Goodbye from your friend in Palestine and many good lucks for your blog!!
Also thank you for didn’t laugh at my English
Merry Pessakh
Gamil
Why do you consider that I am “very extremist”, Gamil? I wish for peace too, and for a Palestinian state.
In relation to your claim re the treatment of Jews in Arab countries, my aunt, her parents, and four brother and sisters were thrown out of Egypt by Nasser with absolutely nothing. And I haven’t met a single Jew who lived in an Arab country who spoke fondly of his/her life there.
By the way, you are welcome to join the discussion on melchett mike.
Richard:
Yes, it’s possible to ‘understand’ that but there are equally valid other opinions out there, also among Jews.
The sense of ‘insecurity’ among Diaspora Jews is far from shared by all. Diaspora Jews world wide are a thriving group now, from whatever stripe or denomination they may be. And yet, according to people like Melanie Phillips and her ilk, Britain is to be compared to the Weimar Republic! And in many other quarters it is openly stated that there is an ‘alarming rise in antisemitism’ everywhere! Upon closer scrutiny it becomes clear that these are gross exaggerations, usually based on inflated numbers to include critics of Israel and anti-Zionists. People like Modernity Blog and his posse actually don’t do the community of British Jews any favours by inflating the numbers of antisemitic incidents and by whipping up fear. But I don’t believe that is MB’s real intention: his intention is to try and disrupt any debate on Israel by trying to railroad it into a debate on antisemitism in which the critic of Israel of course becomes ‘Exhibit A’…
Racism is still everywhere (and I know a good few racist Jews too) albeit less prevalent than in past decades and less violent too. As a completely assimilated ‘foreigner’ I’m occasionally exposed to it too: disparaging or belittling remarks with regards to my national origins, cases of remarkably embarrassing, annoying or irritating ignorance regarding Belgium befall me also once in a while. Well, the only way to combat racism is to combat ALL racism.
As regards your remark about Muslims, that only flies if you consider the Zionist project, from its inception to the present day to be somehow completely innocent.
Hi Gert
I am not sure which “remark about Muslims” but I do think that the Zionist project was as honest as any other nationalist project. Or, should i say, until it is proven to the contrary, I will continue to think of it as so.
I am really not sure whether your assertion about lack of insecurity holds true on closer inspection. I doubt there is a Jew who doesn’t think of the Holocaust in some way regularly. Yes, Jews mainly get on with their lives now but one cannot help think that if one had been born 75 years earlier what might have happened. If my grandfather’s family didn’t leave Poland I wouldn’t be replying to you now! It is a pretty hard heart that just takes life for granted.
Hi,
I’m not sure what you understand by “honest” in this context but I’d say that most nation building projects in the past have involved the use of force, expulsions and transfers. Of course we can’t just lump them all together because they’re not all the same but the similarities should not be ignored. I’m inclined to agree (based on my further reading) with Morris that the Zionists didn’t perhaps behave in the worst way possible but that considerable force was used to ‘clear’ most of Palestine isn’t disputed.
There is no good reason why future nation building or partitioning projects will be any more ‘moral’ or less violent than past ones.
It’s not a question to take life for granted or not: there are far, far, far more reasons why you or I shouldn’t have been here than there are reasons why we should. To be born is to be the winner of a very large, blind, random lottery, against all odds.
By the ‘Muslim remark’ I meant:
Well, of course force was used. It was war. If they weren’t cleared it could have been carnage against the Jews/Israelis instead. Morris finds that expulsion wasn’t planned but having been considered at extent before the war it finally took over to an extent on the battlefield.
But if there had been no war there would have been no expulsion. The UN voted for partition and you can’t hold that against the Jews. The Arabs didn’t like it, I agree, but war was declared and with that comes the need to win and “clearing” Palestinians did take place but Morris found no evidence of an actual ethnic cleansing “policy”.
Yes Mike, Thankyou for the invitashion but I saw the way you are all treating Gert on your blog and if I wanted abusation I can go to an Israeli army CHECKPOINT yesterday.
I think this really is a very importent subject and it is all about my life also. It is importent that we are learning to have respect for another’s opinions and also to listen; not only talking.
We say that (that is a nice quotation)
A wise man associating with the vicious becomes an idiot; a dog traveling with good men becomes a rational being.
Hi Gamil
It is a very important subject and it is good to hear about how it affects your life although i am very sorry that your life really is not at all easy. It is good to hear your views.
Gert has received no more abuse than he dishes out. And I am sure that he can look after himself.
I also think that it is an “important subject” – the understatement of the year! – and that we talk and listen to each other.
You are still welcome on my blog. And if anyone without cause (e.g., you insult them first!) is abusive, I will remove their comments.
First of all I must thank Mike for the link to this most excellent blog.
I must however point out that Mikes editorial policy is rather harsh, often censoring postings for no fathonable reason.
On occasion postings have been removed seemingly because they disagreed with Mike’s point of view.
Therefore Gamil it might be wise to stay where you are and resist being “poached” by Mike.
Mike however, did teach me not to put a space before my commas and for that I will be eternally grateful.
Yes Gamil.
Sadly there is much hatered between our nations.I for one find myself on the right of the political map in part at least because I do not believe that your leaders have any wish to allow the Jewish people to live in peace in the region.
The Hamas is your elected representative and has declared many times that he denies my right to live in Israel.
Does this not prove that your people are not interested in peace with mine?
Hi Gamil:
Thank you for your kind words higher up. They weren’t ‘brave’, they were simply how I see it and increasing numbers of people around the globe are beginning to see it too. The Palestinian request for solidarity in the form of boycott, divestment and sanctions has been quite well received and the campaign is growing by the day.
Michael Goldman:
The last three years or so Hamas have declared themselves ready to accept a two state solution along 1967 borders with capital in E.J’sem in return for a long term truce (Hudna), This they’ve practically been yelling of the rooftops and its been published in prestigious publications like the NYT. Yet the Israeli public largely pretends neither to hear nor to see…
For the past 40 years Israel’s leaders have been building settlements and an ever increasing rate in the West Bank and E.J’sem. Even during rounds of negotiations the colonisation carried on unabated.
The PLO renounced all violence and recognised the State of Israel. Now, ridiculously, Israel has managed to put up another obstacle: the Palestinians are now to recognise the ‘Jewish character’ of the state (have you ever heard of a state demanding of its neighbours that they recognise the particular ‘ethno-religious’ nature of that state?)
No, anyone who after these 40 years of occupation and settlement of occupied land still believes Israel is interested in anything but peace on its own, very self-serving terms must be very foolish or very partisan or both.
Finally, let’s have a look at Likud’s Platform:
Self-Rule
The Government of Israel flatly rejects the establishment of a Palestinian Arab state west of the Jordan river.
The Palestinians can run their lives freely in the framework of self-rule, but not as an independent and sovereign state. Thus, for example, in matters of foreign affairs, security, immigration and ecology, their activity shall be limited in accordance with imperatives of Israel’s existence, security and national needs.
Settlements
The Jewish communities in Judea, Samaria and Gaza are the realization of Zionist values.
Settlement of the land is a clear expression of the unassailable right of the Jewish people to the Land of Israel and constitutes an important asset in the defense of the vital interests of the State of Israel. The Likud will continue to strengthen and develop these communities and will prevent their uprooting.
Michael, do these sound like the statements of people who want peace?
1. We are excited to hear (and see also in our TVs) the heroic picturs of two brave Islam freedom fightors in Russia.
“Don’t think of those who died for the sake of Allah as dead. They are alive and getting sustenance from God.”
These are more proves that Islamic womens are being given equals chances!
2. Salam Gert! and best wishes.
3. Michael – as Gert is saying to Hamas isn’t trying to bring a destrushion of Israel now but we must agree with a Hudna if you are returning all the lands you stolen. What is your answer?
OK Gert so let me get this straight.
The Hamas is point blank refusing to agree to peace with Israel, but would agree to a long term truce if we give them a state which they could then use to get stronger and achieve their long term aim of destroying us.
Is it really any wonder that the Likud’s platform is against this?
If they really wanted peace they would simply say give us the land and we’ll give you real peace and not a long truce.
Just listen to Gamil!!
Gert
أريد أن أكتب إليكم باللغة العربية حتى الصهاينة لن يفهم. هو بخير؟
Gamil.
I deleted your Arabic post as I cannot allow what I don’t understand.
“We are excited to hear (and see also in our TVs) the heroic picturs of two brave Islam freedom fightors in Russia. ‘Don’t think of those who died for the sake of Allah as dead. They are alive and getting sustenance from God.'”
That is a sick thing to say! 35 people died and you are praising it! Ugh! What kind of person are you! You disgust me, Gamil.
And do you agree with this sentiment also, Gert?
Michael:
I’m guessing I’m talking to a Likudnik here, in which case this conversation will be short.
And we’re only on our second date and already you’re lying through your teeth:
Even you know that that is baloney: Likud, like the other maximalist, rejectionist parties of the current coalition dream of Eretz Israel from the river to the sea. Bibi has recently under US pressure made some grunting noises in the direction of a Palestinian state but they’re not in any hurry to get there.
If security was the main concern, a military occupation without settlements would be much better for Israel. And it would open the door for serious talks.
Hamas’ capabilities amount to almost nothing militarily, as we saw also during the Gaza assault. The idea that they could even attempt to destroy the militarily strongest state in the region by far is belly laughter inducing.
Unfortunately, thanks to forty years of settling, Israel is now no longer in position to ‘give them the land’. This too is a situation Likud has contributed historically, quite deliberately.
Gamil should indeed at least clarify this remark.
Does he believe this attack was justifiable because he supports the underlying grievances? If so he should explain the underlying grievances.
Please clarify your position, Gamil.
You are truly unbelievable, Gert, you really are. What is their to explain? It is as clear as daylight.
This ideology explains a lot. It explains the whole conflict, not just in Israel but in Afghanistan, Pakistan and Russia. It’s called Islamic fundamentalism.
The Russia is an infidel place (or country). It adapts a Western atheyst values and is obressing it’s Moslem minorties.
She also exborts the Jews to make Israel more strong. Maybe you didn’t heard but the Israeli minister for foreigners Leebermann is sent by Russia to Israel and is the most worst Zionist.
So this is the good punishment and now it is clarified.
Best Wishes to Gert and Richard
So 35 innocent civilians are murdered and you see this as “good punishment”? Nice!
There you go, Gert. Position clarified.
Gert your guess is way off.
I’ve never voted Likud in my life and as such feel no compulsion to defend their policy.
You either misunderstood or more likely ignored the point I was making.
Even you know that if the Hamas had a state in say the 1967 borders Israel’s defensive capabilities would be vastly reduced, with the width of the country being about 10KM at some points.Hamas itself doesn’t have to be strong millitarily but could easily call on its friends in the region for military assistance.
Hamas has no wish to make peace with us.Read their literature,listen to what they say, listen to your friend Gemil.They never speak of a peaceful co-existence with Israel but constantly refer to Jihad (Holy War).
Their aim is to destroy Israel and they make no bones about it.Giving them a state would only help them in their quest.
Giving a state to a terrorist organization which has made it clear that even if we do give them a state they will (after the cease fire is over) make every effort to destroy us is just suicidal.
Richard:
Please spare me your faux-indignation and your third-grader explanations.
It explains the whole conflict??? Can you get any more reductionist? Zionism started in the late 18th century and starts to gain traction around the 1920s – 1930s, way before there was any such thing as Islamic fundamentalism, 9/11 or al Qaeda. Even by 1967 there was no such thing.
Hamas have no connections to al Qaeda (bin Laden repeatedly expressed disdain for the group on the grounds that they were purely regional actors, concerned only with the besognes of the Palestinians and not the wider, ‘global’ cause). Hamas is Islamist, yet no different from any other resistance group that would resist the occupation of their land.
It suits Zionism down to the ground to try and connect Hamas (or any Muslim resistance group, of course) to Islamic Fundamentalism.
And now you believe you found ‘Exhibit A’ in the form of a clearly confused you man. Did they teach you anything about empiricism where you got your education? Even Netanyahu would probably giggle at your jingoistic reductionism… Manichean nonsense is what it is, designed once again to make Zionist shit smell like roses.
Michael:
In that case you have no choice but to engage in an almost infinite series of Cast Leads, to try and kill or capture Hamas down to the last man. And run up a horrendous bill of ‘collateral damage’ to boot…
You know that that is not going to happen though: such groups never actually win anything but they are notoriously difficult to defeat, never mind eradicate.
Direct talks with Hamas are what is needed. All of their points are without doubt negotiable, as they’ve already shown in the recent past to be able to take up more realistic positions.
But as Efraim Inbar said in an interview not long ago: “Hamas is good for the Jews! As long as they are there it is a gift to us!”. (he meant Israeli Jews, of course)
Ask yourself why he said that…
Michael, Gert doesn’t want to listen even when he hears it from the horse’s mouth. For this one-trick pony everything is to do with Zionism.
Gamil:
Your Chechnya – Lieberman ‘connection’ belongs in the circular filing system, also known as ‘the bin’, as do other conspiracy theories.
Russia does not ‘export’ Jews, it’s rather the other way around: Israel allows Jews from all corners of the globe to ‘return’ to Israel (while vigorously refusing that right to those who were made to flee in ’48/’67 and maintaining there is nothing racist about this).
Terrorism is not the answer to anything. A political solution to the conflict is the only possible one, provided the powers that be provide counter -weight to Israel’s expansionist aspirations in the WB/E.J’sem.
I’ll ask you again, Richard. For all your blaming everything on Islamic Fundamentalism, was it al Qaeda or Hamas that built settlements on land universally recognised to be reserved for the Palestinian state?
Even this simple point (the wrongness of building settlements on occupied territory) you cannot concede. And still you maintain you’re ‘not a Zionist’.
Dear G-d…
Don’t “Dear G-d” me with your constant procession of straw men. This isn’t about settlements. Even if those settlements weren’t there Hamas and, even, Fatah would only be interested in one thing, Gert, and you know it.
Gert, Is this some kind of joke?
Why should I negotiate with a bunch of terrorists for my right to exist?
Why do you find it so difficult to believe them when they say they want to eradicate me and my people from the region?
Give them a little respect and understand that their wish to destroy me and my children will not cease if they sign a piece of paper.
As Richard says.It’s not about settlements or 1967 borders.
It’s simply about getting rid of the Jews!
Gert, you are quiet naive.
“Terrorism is not the answer to anything.”
This is nor Terrorism, only the legitimaly expressions of the Hamas movment who we have chosen:
‘Ranks will close, fighters joining other fighters, and masses everywhere in the Islamic world will come forward in response to the call of duty, loudly proclaiming: ‘Hail to Jihad!’. This cry will reach the heavens and will go on being resounded until liberation is achieved, the invaders vanquished and Allah’s victory comes about.’
Are you really thinking that ” A political solution to the conflict is the only possible one”?
Are you thinking the Zionist dogs will agree to this without an armyed struggle??
We have long writen:
‘Initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement… Those conferences are no more than a means to appoint the infidels as arbitrators in the lands of Islam… There is no solution for the Palestinian problem except by
Jihad.”
Gert,
WE acepect our friends to be understanding things like these and not contradicting our principals. Please be careful!
Best Wishes
Best Wishes Richard!
1. You have written yesterday;
‘Gert doesn’t want to listen even when he hears it from the horse’s mouth.’
I have thought this is not very respectfully that you are now calling me a horse! I am very resbectfull to you but why you are now saying this? We are not agreeing about all the things – but we both humans.
2. Gert,
Please continue to attack Netanyahu, Mike (who now changed his name from Melchet to Goldman), Livni etc, but please do not suggest for us new bolicies.
We have democraticaly elected leader-ship that are following the teaching of a sacred Koran and the teachings of the blessed profit and messenger of God Muhammad ibn Abdullāh.
Gamil
I don’t recognise you as a normal human being. You celebrate the deaths of innocent civilians in Russia. I respect horses more than you.
How are you know how much I respect horses?
Something stinks here. This ‘Gamil’ isn’t a real person, IMHO. Look at that spelling: it looks like something out of Tintin! He pretends even not to know how to spell ‘Prophet’!
Not once have I seen a self-professed Jihadi show up at a Zionist blog.
This guy is pulling our leg. He’s best ignored.
Richard, you’ve finally shown your colours. If you really believe neither Fatah nor Hamas want peace, in fact quite the opposite, then that is a logical cul-de-sac. The only way out of that position is to declare yourself a transferist: transfer the Palestinian population to Jordan, or perhaps to Mars, as they’re only goal is to destroy Israel…
I hope you are right about Gamil, Gert. He probably is real, just bad at English.
This isn’t a Zionist blog. It is pro-Israel and pro-Palestinian.
Well, I believe they do want peace but only once Israel has gone.
I’m not declaring myself anything. I am not an ideologist. I am just highlighting certain issues.
I am not addressing your seeming assertion that I am a racist. It is the Fatah/Hamas leadesrships that is the problem. Bring in moderates and there can be an agreed solution and a Palestinian state. At least Israel has a range of political parties across the board. The Palestinians at the moment just have the choice of hard-right and very hard-right.
I didn’t say you are a racist.
I note simply that logical extension of the belief the Palestinians no only not want peace but only want the destruction of Israel is to have them removed. Which population would want to have a suicidally hostile population besides/among them? That’s illogical. No, the Hyper Far Right in Israel, no matter how much I despise them, really are more consistent in their belief system.
I also note that to you the Palestinians are essentially nothing more than Jew-haters.
You still claim to be a two-stater: how is the magical conversion of the Palestinians from Jew-haters to peaceful respecters of the Jewish state to be achieved (anything less would make a two state solution suicidal in your and Michael’s opinion)?
Not sure how much more malleable the Fatah leadership could get with Abbas on board…
I never implied the Palestinians are Jew-haters. I said that Fatah/Hamas are intransigent in that they will never accept a Jewish state. There’s a huge difference.
I know what you mean about Abbas. I haven’t given up all hope but my sense is that he cannot give up the “right of return” for all the tea in China.
I assumed it would only be a matter of time until someone mocked my English. I am surprised that it was an individual who purports to be my friend. In the Koran it is written:
“Let the believers not make friends with infidels in preference to the faithful—he that does this has nothing to hope for from God—except in self-defense”
I have paid, from my own pocket, for this translation and I do not intend to do so again to please Gert. If my English does not satisfy him or is not up to his standards, that is his affair. I am quite happy to write in Arabic.
Gert has anointed himself as a self-appointed spokesman for the Palestinian people, but he seems to know nothing about us, the Hamas or Islam.
Does he really believe that the glorious shahid who sacrifices his worldly existence on US planes, Israeli buses or Russian trains is doing so because of social or economic grievances? Does he think that our generation be bought off cheap, like our fathers’ was?
Our position is quite clear. We will accept a Hudna in return for the Zionist entity withdrawing its hoards to the borders they had illegally occupied until 1967. There will be no recognition of the Zionist entity, neither before the fact nor after the fact. The hudna will be similar to that of our prophet Mohammad with the Quraysh tribe.
For further information or if you have questions, you may find it helpful to visit our official sites.
Now Gert, please listen carefully. These words are not mine; however, they are in quite excellent English:
“We are ready to welcome the support that supports the resistance of our people from any party, on one condition that such support does not have any political price. We do not accept any interference in our politics.”
These are not my words but those of Dr. Khalil Al Hayya and Gert can read them in impeccable English at:
http://www.qassam.ps/interview-2305-An_exclusive_interview_with_Hamas_leader_Dr_Khalil_Al_Hayya.html
So let me reiterate once again to all our friends:
“We do not accept any interference in our politics”
Gamil,
Why should we in Israel agree to give you territory when it is obvious that you wish to destroy us?
It’s you guys that encourage suicide not us!
Richard,
It seems obvious that the Hamas/Fatah have no intention of suddenly becoming moderate.
How would you advise we deal with the situation?
Gert,
After reading all the hatered spewed out against Israel by Hamas leaders, do you really believe that they have any wish to live in peace with us side by side?
Michael,
Sorry about the English, I’m quiet tired.
I have no arguments with you. If you are wanting to fight us, try. You tried a lot of times and always have losed. We will no go anywere.
We offer you a Hudna so you can have quiet and us also. I am not trying to persuade you.
I do not hate Jews, I hate Zionism.
Gamil
Take your sick ideology somewhere else. Don’t post here again.
I understand and am respecting your wishes.
Probably more easy to make dialogue with a businessman from Belguim who is representing nobody except for himself.
Best Wishes
Richard,
This is obviously your call, but I find it all quite informative.
It’s interesting hearing from the people in whose hands I am meant to entrust the security of my children.
Is it really wise to give these crazy suicidal maniacs a state?
Gert, for you it’s all a bit of an intellectual theoretical problem.
If we give the Hamas a state will they manage to live in peace with Israel or will they use their new power to harm us.
Might as well try and see what happens.
For those of us living here our existance is in the balance.
Michael
I can’t have people who glorfy terrorism. I have seen enough of him and his like to know what they are about.
As for Gert, it is nothing more than an intellectual theoretical problem as you suggest. Gert is naive. He is like a little kid playing cowboys and indians. He really doesn’t live in the real world.
I don’t envy you surrounded by the Fatah and Hamas leaderships. Neither of them will ever concede Israel however much Gert protests and bangs on about some mythical piece in the NYT where, apparently, Hamas agreed to a two-state -solution!
This latest outburst by ‘Gamil Elias’ proves no more or no less whether he’s real or an impostor.
Assuming for argument’s sake that he’s real I need to note for the record:
1. ‘Gamil’ is not my ‘friend’ and I’m not his. I had hitherto not heard of anyone by the name, blog handle or nickname ‘Gamil Elias’.
2. I have not ‘anointed myself as a self-appointed spokesman for the Palestinian people’. I’m in this struggle neither for love of Palestinians nor for hatred of Israeli Jews but because completely in good faith I see an injustice being carried out against the former by the latter. Many Palestinian groups, NGOs etc have called on people of conscience from all over the world to stand with them in solidarity. This I do.
3. I’m not a Hamas supporter. I do support the Palestinian people’s right to elect whom they see fit. I support the Palestinian people’s right to resist their oppression and occupation, also by means of force, but believe the time to relinquish violent resistance has come some ten years ago if not more.
4. Violence directed at civilians is immoral, as well as counter-productive.
5. I don’t know much about Islam but believe most prominent Islamic scholars declare suicide bombing to be Haram (forbidden, a sin).
To be fair I think we knew most of that about you, Gert. No one was connecting you with him.
Richard,
Thanks for your words of sympathy but my biggest problem at the moment is trying to get my MP3 player to play songs I downloaded from youtube.
It means all the more to me having been on a double date with your sister, somebody Elaine and a friend of mine Daniel about 35 years ago!
As I recall it was a complete failure and an embarassment to all concerned.
Gert,
I ask again.
After reading all the hatered spewed out against Israel by Hamas leaders, do you really believe that they have any wish to live in peace with us side by side?
Talk about living in the real world. You offer nothing by means of a solution other than ‘if the Palestinians come up with a more moderate leadership we can give them a state’. It’s what one could call the no solution solution.
It relies on maintaining the status quo of occupation and oppression, combined of course with continued expansion of the settlements, in the vainglorious hope that the Palestinians will somehow see the light and submit to Israel’s will.
Richard, when the Allies bombed 30,000 to 100,000 Germans into oblivion in Dresden in one single, extended bombing raid, did it weaken German resolve? Did the survivors queue up to the Nazi High Command begging them to surrender? Did the British decide to pack it in because of intense bombing runs over British towns and cities?
The answer to these questions is a clear NO! You simply can’t submit people to your will by means of violence, oppression and the taking of their liberty.
Every Palestinian NGO, combined with every pro-peace Israeli NGO states clearly and logically that the continued occupation, combined with the ever continuing settlement, are the root cause of the problem. You on the other hand have neither a root cause nor a solution. Who here is living in the real world, Richard?
Do try and engage brain before keyboard: where or in what way, shape or form, am I surrounded by Fatah and Hamas leaderships? Are you resorting to science fiction now?
As regards the ‘mythical piece in the NYT’, you once again show what a sloppy little ‘journalist’ you actually are. Hamas state their willingness to accept a two state solution along 1967 borders, with capital in E.J’sem in return for a long term truce (Hudna) on each and every possible occasion and have been doing so for about three years now. Even the most superficial Internet research would show you that. And if you actually followed events in real time you wouldn’t have to look it up either. You’re being deeply dishonest here or deeply lazy. I’m in touch with Zionist Israelis who are completely aware of Hamas’ stance and for that reason are open to the idea of starting tentative talks.
In short, both you and Michael are manifestations of what I described in my opening post: the occupation costs Israel very little. It has no motive to discontinue it and continuing it allows it also to carry on with its retched colonisation project. If security was Israel’s main concern, it would withdraw its settlers while maintaining the occupation until final status agreement was reached.
probably more like 30 years ago you mean? It sounds very possible.
Michael:
Do you also read the vile anti-Arab hatred vented by some of your leaders, not to mention the large contingent of Israel bloggers and their Jewish and non-Jewish supporters a like? Do you think vile and hateful rhetoric really is a one way street?
Did you know that Mike Melchett higher up in this thread practically called me a Nazi? That very recently a Jewish supporter of Israel (possibly an Israeli) held me responsible for the Holocaust?
Richard:
What on Earth are you prattling on about now?
Gert,
You really are very rude
Richard was replying to my posting.
OK. I take that back.
Civility is no substitute for truth though…
Richard,
At least 34 I was no older than 14
Shabat Shalom
Gert,
I’ll try to get back to you tomorrow night as the sun is setting and the Sabbath is arriving.
And for those who still don’t believe me on Hamas’ changed stance, they could have simply looked it up in Wiki (an uncontested article, BTW). Go down to the references, starting at [36]. The first reference (Ha’aretz, FCS, who doesn’t read that!) is from 2008, about 3 years ago, as I said.
And Ynet is reporting last summer’s contacts between Hamas officials and former high profile diplomats…
Where does it refer to Israel’s right to exist?
Gert
“Do you also read the vile anti-Arab hatred vented by some of your leaders”
A typical quote from the Hamas charter:
“Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it.”
Please supply me with quotes form my government which rival this quote or the constant calls for Jihad (Holy War) against the Jews in Israel.
You may not be aware of the fact but Mike Melchette does not represent the government and you do not represent the Arabs so that him calling you and Nazi as you know has nothing to do with our discussion.
” Richard, when the Allies bombed 30,000 to 100,000 Germans into oblivion in Dresden in one single, extended bombing raid, did it weaken German resolve? Did the survivors queue up to the Nazi High Command begging them to surrender? Did the British decide to pack it in because of intense bombing runs over British towns and cities?
The answer to these questions is a clear NO! You simply can’t submit people to your will by means of violence, oppression and the taking of their liberty.”
According to this logic violence should not have been used against the Germans, but we should have tried talking nicely to them and maybe giving them a state in all of Europe.
“Every Palestinian NGO, combined with every pro-peace Israeli NGO states clearly and logically that the continued occupation, combined with the ever continuing settlement, are the root cause of the problem. You on the other hand have neither a root cause nor a solution. Who here is living in the real world, Richard?”
The Arabs in the region whether it be Hamas,Fatah or our neighbours have been trying to destroy us since the declaration of the state of Israel in 1948.
Nothing to do with occupied territory, that’s just the excuse.They want us out!
You keep mentioning that Hamas have agreed to a Hudna cease fire if Israel gives them a stae in the 1967 borders, but you ignore the fact that a Hudna is not a peace agreement but only a cease fire.It is a tactical move.They still intend to destroy us.
JUST READ THE CHARTER!!
“Civility is no substitute for truth though”
Sadly you possess neither.
The obvious fact is that the Hamas wish to destroy Israel.
JUST READ THE CHARTER!!
But that bit of truth you choose to ignore!
“…when the Allies bombed 30,000 to 100,000 Germans into oblivion in Dresden in one single, extended bombing raid, did it weaken German resolve? Did the survivors queue up to the Nazi High Command begging them to surrender?”
A good point Gert, verily a jewel. Carrying on your line of rhetorical questioning we should ask ourselves, “What did Winston Churchill do next? What was his conclusion?”
Did he sit down and negotiate a peace deal with Hitler? Did he determine that “You simply can’t submit people to your will by means of violence, oppression and the taking of their liberty.”? (not that this is what Israel is doing)
No, he bombed them more. and he said:
We shall go on to the end, we shall fight in France,
we shall fight on the seas and oceans,
we shall fight with growing confidence and growing strength in the air, we shall defend our Island, whatever the cost may be,
we shall fight on the beaches,
we shall fight on the landing grounds,
we shall fight in the fields and in the streets,
we shall fight in the hills;
we shall never surrender
That is the correct way to deal with thugs and murderers. Be they Nazis, be they Al Capone or be they Hamas. Imagine where we’d be today if Churchill had chosen the way of other Quislings, Gert.
I’m not sure that it’s the best historical parallel. We are not the Allies and the Hamas is nor Nazi Germany. However, if Gert is going to borrow it, he ought to do it justice.
Richard:
Everything is negotiable and everything has a price. But you can’t find out until you start negotiating.
Do you believe if Israel’s ‘right’ to exist was recognised by Hamas that somehow makes Israel more secure? In what way? Show me an example where mutual recognition has prevented war between two states.
States derive their legitimacy from their existence, there is no formal ‘right to exist’.
On the meaning of the refusal the recognise Israel, as well as the Hudna, see Azzam Tamimi, here.
How about Israel recognise the Naqba for instance, instead of trying to block commemorations of it inside the green line?
Daniel and Michael:
I am specifically referring to the indiscriminate fire power used during Cast Lead which was clearly designed to terrorise the Gazan population into surrender and submission (the evidence is there but Israeli leadership stated its intentions also quite clearly). Similarly Hamas’ Qassam campaign achieves nothing, quite the opposite.
The example was chosen as one of the use of indiscriminate and overwhelming firepower resulting in the deaths of almost mostly civilians, when we now know this did not alter the course of the war.
It would appear a Cast Lead II is on the cards: do you all agree that this is the best course?
And here’s a little quiz for you all (Richard will be familiar with the format – Press TV’s ‘The Agenda’). Who allegedly said:
Gert,
if you think i will give credence to any of Tamimi’s writings you are more delusional that i originally thought. Now once again……where is that NYT piece?
Richard:
Your point-blank dismissal of this man’s arguments shows the paucity of your own arguments. It’s also very childish. You’ve been promoted to arch-Zionist in my book.
Here’s the NYT piece:
One thing that’s quite significant is that the NYT isn’t exactly know for its pro-Palestinian positions. It’s Jerusalem bureau chief for instance is Ethan Bronner, whose son currently serves in the AOF (ooops! IDF…)
The piece was sooooo hard to find: I couldn’t be bothered locating it on my own blog, so just typed in ‘new york times khalid mishal’ in Google and there it was in #1. Totally mythically, of course…
Ok, thanks. Will have a read it later. Listen please don’t push me on Tamimi. I won’t even go there. I have no respect for his arguments. He isn’t too far away from Gamil.
Thanks for the Zionist label. If it makes you feel better then so be it.
Michael:
That’s so horrendously reductionist I wouldn’t even know where to start to deconstruct it.
It’s a sad state of affairs that there are still Israelis who refuse to accept any responsibility by the state of Israel regarding the Naqba, the second wave of refugees, the continued occupation (considered illegal by just about the entire International community), the continued colonisation including inward transfer of own population (all considered illegal by just about the entire International community) and conveniently blame ‘the Arabs’ for resisting their appalling fate.
You must really feel that G-d promised you the land and that He will absolve you from anything you might do to obtain it.
If you want to read Khaled Meshaal’s stuff see the Sky interview with him and when he does a bit of Holocaust revisionism.
Yes, the Naqba was terrible for the Palestinian people. But it was war. What did you expect the Jews/Israelis to do, stand there and let themselves be massacred? Gert, you really are so naive.
Gert, on the NYT article:
“We are with a state on the 1967 borders, based on a long-term truce. This includes East Jerusalem, the dismantling of settlements and the right of return of the Palestinian refugees.”
The right of return of refugees is tantamount to non-recognition. Israel would cease to be Jewish state. It would become, in essence, a Muslim state.
And anyway, why, after 62 years of building up a state, should the Israelis just agree to turn it into something else by allowing 9 million Palestinians to move to it?
That said you really are Hamas now. You talk just like Meshal. Got the glorious leader’s picture on your wall yet? 😉
Richard:
It took me all I’ve got (and two threads) to actually get you to admit that there was such a thing as the NYT interview with Mechal. Now you’re essentially resorting to ad hom in a very puerile way (the diminutive emoticon not withstanding). I’m not sure why I waste my time on you.
On a serious note, the RoR, the length of the Hudna (even eventual recognition) and other considerations are all up for negotiation. But for that you must want to negotiate. This, Israel, doesn’t want to do, at least not in earnest. Carry on the charade of talks about talks, yes, the shuttle diplomacy of Mitchell (that poor man!) and endless photo ops of Israeli leaders patronising an incompetent like Abbas, that yes. Meanwhile continuing construction of course, as per usual…
And here we have the High Priest of the British Zionist Smear Machine again. Modders, a man whose own lack of moral integrity doesn’t even allow him to make a simple pronouncement on the settlements. A man who supports a racist and expansionist regime, yet campaigns against anyone who campaigns against that on the alleged grounds that the campaigners are ‘Far Right antisemites’. Rest assured, your Kommentariat is now under scrutiny. I’ve already seen Fabian ‘I didn’t come to Israel to live among Arabs’ from Israel there a few times. You’re not as squeaky clean as you might think you are.
A commenter at JSF.
So there you have it, a Hamas leader indulging in Holocaust revisionism and yet it doesn’t cause any problems for the supposed “Anti-Zionists”?
Do watch the SKY interview, it is in a video clip and can’t be denied, that’s what he said.
Modders:
Ye, it does bother me but it’s ridiculous in this context to compare Arab/Palestinian/Hamas Holocaust denial with the Holocaust denial of Europeans like Irving or Zundl et al. That is what you refuse to see because it suits your position: anti-Zionists can thus be dismissed as antisemites because they don’t protest Hamas’ Holocaust denial enough.
For someone who constantly berates everyone else as ill informed you seem indeed poorly informed on the subject of the relativity of Holocaust denial from a cultural perspective. How the Holocaust and other genocides are seen will always be somewhat culturally determined.
Here’s but two simple examples:
1. Holocaust ignorance was once quite rife in the US, prior to the ‘Hollywoodisation’ of the Holocaust. Yet who can really blame them? The Holocaust wasn’t committed by Americans and not on American soil either.
2. Who in Europe still recalls the Congolese genocide under Leopold II? Upper estimates claim up to 5 million were worked to death, starved to death or simply murdered. Who cares or remembers? Do Europeans have the same relationship to the Rwandan genocide (which they could have helped prevent or stop) as to the Holocaust? No. Ask yourself why.
In the case of Arab denial, comes on top of these factors that Palestinian misfortunes are widely seen as the result of the Holocaust, for which they were made to pay the price. Wrong? Maybe so but if I were Palestinian I would probably see it exactly the same way. Your lack of empathy doesn’t change that.
I suggest you read for instanceA Tale of Two Claims: Ahmadinejad and the Jews by the ACJ’s Yakov M. Rabkin.
Also Against Holocaust Denial.
Richard,
Can you see why it is completely fruitless to argue with Gert?
Because basically he doesn’t understand what you write and when he summarises it back to you, the mistakes show.
In this example, you’ll see Gert confuses Holocaust revisionism with Holocaust denial.
Although they are close they are not the same. One is out right denial of a proven fact and the other a far more insidious attack, not that Gert would know the difference.
Contrary to what Gert writes apparently Irving doesn’t deny the Holocaust any longer, rather he’s a slippery revisionist who tries to produce niggling questions, false evidence and plays around exculpating the Nazis.
But this is fairly typical of the mindless “anti-Zionist” mindset, words have no meaning to them, there is no intellectual subtlety or distinction between things and in the process they confuse the issues.
Of course the Hamas leader doesn’t invoke outright Holocaust denial, that would be far too crude for him, rather he takes a leaf out of David Irving’s book and pushes revisionism
Clearly, the common ground between Irving and the Hamas leadership is that they both loathes Jews and that is why they employ Holocaust revisionism whenever they can.
Not that the ignoramuses that pass themselves off as “Anti-Zionists” will acknowledge that obvious fact.
Interesting that Gert chooses to quote from JSF, as being supposedly against Holocaust denial?
It is a pity Gert didn’t read the previous largely complimentary post on Ahmadinejad from JSF, which cuts the legs from under his arguments:
http://jewssansfrontieres.blogspot.com/2009/04/ahmadinjed-got-something-rightalmost.html
Hmm, so for many “anti-Zionists” hatred for Israel trumps loathing for Ahmadinejad’s racism, figures eh?
Modders:
You’re a complete twit. And a syllable parser to boot.
You haven’t addressed a single point I’ve made.
I’m against Holocaust revisionism and denial and you know that. Like the smear merchant that you are you can’t stop insinuating.
You’re a nauseating slime ball. You would never have the gall to write what you write here or elsewhere and say it to my face.
You will continue to slander people until someone, ample evidence in hand, will complain to your hosting company and have your account suspended. I’m warning you now that I’ve just about have had enough of your slanderous ‘free speech’.
Modders,
for many anti-Zionists hatred for Israel trumps most things. That is why they have jumped into bed with anti-Semites, misogynists, homophobes and people like Ahmadinejad/Hamas that slaughter their own people (is there a name for that?)
Yeah Richard,
I can see that, but what annoys me is that people actually take these cranks seriously.
Gert is but one example, of someone who has problems reading basic English and then rendering it back.
But he’s not alone.
If they can’t manage simple sentences imagine how confused they become when they consider the Middle East, which is confusing and then some to people who **can** read simple sentences, and those cranks can’t make the distinction between denial and revisionism.
They even threaten people, that’s their way, unable to discuss matters with reason or logic they want to close down debate (see the Jenna Delich debacle).
They may make an interesting foil occasionally, but really it is worthless to debate any substantive issue with them.
Richard:
Wrong again. What the overwhelming majority of anti-Zionists do is hate Israel’s policies vis-à-vis the Palestinians. Others, notably many Jewish anti-Zionists, hate what Israel does to Judaism and the Jewish people.
As regards antisemitic support for the anti-Zionist/pro-Palestinian cause, that is minimal and strongly internally policed.
But antisemitic support for Zionism clearly exists: see in this country the BNP and the EDL. Far more importantly in the US John Hagee’s Christians United for Israel (CUFI), a group that claims the second coming of Christ will leave the Jews no choice but to either mass-convert or burn forever in hell. Hagee claims 20 million supporters. In reality it’s closer to 2 million. 2 MILLION, enough, already? The people are very openly feted by AIPAC, small wonder considering how much money these groups actually raise for settler Zionism. The Islamophobic Geert ‘ban the Quran’ Wilders openly states he’s in love with Israel. This is all merely the tip of the iceberg.
Calling critics of Israel or anti-Zionists ‘Israel haters’ or worse is all that modern Zionism has left as a defense mechanism.
Re the Zionist governments, there is ample evidence of past collusion with very unsavoury regimes, including SA Apartheid, the Argentinean Junta, not to mention the openly Nazi Christian Phalange (Lebanon – Sabra/Shatilah).
And like your new buddy you haven’t addressed a single point regarding Hamas Holocaust stance.
Gert, the main problem you have is that you are a total rejectionist and irredentist on your own admission. You are a confirmed anti-Zionist and so everything that Israel does for you is automatically wrong. Therefore, all your arguments are formed to fit your ideology. You have nothing constructive to say on the conflict. It is a shame as you are obviously intelligent but on Israel/Palestine you have chosen to look at one side alone.
As for Jewish anti-Zionists they wouldn’t know Judaism if it hit them in the face. That isn’t a bad thing but, again, they’re attaching “Jewish” to everything they do shows how weak their arguments actually are. If they didn’t add “Jewish” no one would listen to them. They are just a curiosity for you and other non-Jews. And there really aren’t too many of them either. But their “Jewishness” is defined solely by their anti-Israelism. That’s about as “jewish” as they get.
Richard:
Nothing is going to change by me taking a ‘balanced view’ (apart from the fact that your own view is hardly balanced), in essence Israel has been given carte blanche by most Western governments from birth. Sure, there’s been some condemnatory UN resolutions and some more lip service but that’s about it.
I love it when Israel Firsters like you complain about people who are anti-Israel (for want of a better term) and thus ‘biased’: I don’t see them complain about the unconditional support from Israel’s major benefactor, the US. This relationship is decidedly bizarre (certainly post-Cold War), with Israel receiving more financial aid that all other countries put together and US leaders speaking constantly about ‘unbreakable’ and ‘unshakable’ and ‘eternal’ bonds.
Over the last 40 years Israel has been showing an intransigence and a ‘two fingers to the world’ mentality that is the result of decades of indulging it: it’s very much like a spoiled child. Whenever under any pressure it starts throwing toys out of its pram and complaining to its rich parents who then indulge it in anything to keep it ‘happy’. Except: it never is. Always complaining about being victimised when in reality it’s treating the victims of its own crimes with less than contempt.
Ultimately only world pressure will make Israel see sense. I’m a very small part of that pressure.
As regards Modders, he’s a whore for Zionism. Undoubtedly otherwise a reasonable fellow, he and his ilk ‘see red’ whenever the subject turns to Israel, Zionism or even Jews tout court. As a result Modders gladly offers his services to the British Zionist Smear Machine with a gusto that would otherwise be found only in the Meircan Conservative blogosphere. By doing so he isn’t doing British Jewry any favours: in Moddy’s world there really is an antisemite under each Jewish bed. Thankfully we have the testimony of many British Jews that this is simply not the case. There are plenty of Jews, including some Zionists, who consider the charge of antisemitism against me not only wrong but also patently absurd. Modders, however, always knows best.
As regards denying anti-Zionist Jews their Jewishness, that’s just plain old racism. Antisemitism, to be precise…
It’s not racism at all. It’s true. Few of them adhere to anything Jewish at all apart from terming themselves “Jewish” to gain attention for their slagging off of Israel.
I love it when Palestine Firsters like youself think you are actually doing the Palestinian people a service when instead of looking for a TSS you are looking for the whole of Israel, which will never happen and so will keep the Palestinians festering in camps in Syria, Lebanon etc. forever. Good on ya, Gert!
Richard:
If any non-Jew questioned the Jewishness of any Jew there would be hell to pay. You’re applying a double standard and of course are also at risk of wanting Nuremberg-style bureaucratic definition of who is Jewish and who is not.
Regards the TSS/OSS, I think you should get out more often. The idea of the OSS is borne out of the belief that it may simply be now far too late for a TSS. Zionist leaders like Olmert and more recently Barak have voiced serious concerns about what Olmert called ‘sleepwalking into full Apartheid’. When most of the WB will have been gobbled up by settlements, Israel will have three choices:
a. Annex the WB and expel remaining Arabs
b. Annex the WB and have Grand Apartheid in the WB
c. Annex the WB and adsorb the remaining Arabs into Greater Israel.
These are simple but stark choices to make.
Gert, you’re a right old drama queen, aren’t you? Most of the WB won’t be gobbled up by settlements. After 43 years it is only a small % of the WB that is covered by settlements.
I’m not questioning their “jewishness” per se. I never said they weren’t Jewish, I was suggesting that they don’t adhere to any specific Jewish ideals, culture or festivals and the only way they express their religion is politically. Fact!
They claim there is nothing Jewish about Zionism, well there is nothing Jewish about their anti-Zionism. They can’t have it both ways unless they live in Gert’s fantasy land.
Reluctant as I am to enter again this debate, I am no friend of Olmert, but as far as I can see he never stated any of the following:
“Zionist leaders like Olmert and more recently Barak have voiced serious concerns about what Olmert called ’sleepwalking into full Apartheid’. “
[Unless Gert has a valid link which proves this statement, I would take it as nothing more than typical “anti-Zionist” hyperbole and exaggeration]
As for those choices, I suspect that the Israelis are considerably more intellectually astute than Gert and could think up a few more permutations than those offered.
Yes, Modders, Gert does present us with open goals in to which to kick the ball every time. He is an anti-Zionist so by definition he refuses to accept Israel’s existence so his arguments are by definition mostly invalid. He has nothing constructive to offer except “Israel this Israel that………”
No, it’s not a small % at all. Land between the actual settlements is often inaccessible to Palestinians too, for ‘security reasons’.
Do you believe the two Ehuds are ‘drama queens’ too? You’re very much a ‘move along folks, nothing to see here’ kind of person.
By using you own self-serving definition of anti-Zionism perhaps but that’s your third grader tactic. I’m on record truthfully stating Israel has the right to exist. It, like most states, derives that right from its very existence.
It’s disgraceful, underhand, unfair and dishonest that after all this time you still need to resort to this kind of cowardly argumentation.
Richard,
You see, no matter what you say, how you say it and even in the most moderate tones, it will never satisfy the likes of Gert & Co.
They always assume that everyone else on this topic is some mendacious, Machiavellian figure carefully plotting to spin lies to fool those canny “anti-Zionists”.
If they were in the US they’d probably be 9/11 truthers.
Nothing you say to them will get through, and you will notice Gert has provided no evidence on Olmert’s supposed statement.
Typical?
what cowardly argumentation?
So you’re an anti-Zionist who believes Israel has the right to exist? Is that a realistic combo.?
Modders:
There’s nothing reluctant about you. Repugnant yes, reluctant no.
Olmert made that statement shortly before Cat Lead. It was widely publicised, among others in Ha’aretz. It should not be difficult to Google it back.
Barak made a very similar statement much more recently. It too was widely publicised among others by Mondoweiss who use it as an argument in favour of the OSS. Again it should be easy to find.
Your slanderousness a propos moi has no limits.
Richard:
Please don’t play dumb. There’s much to oppose in Zionism without opposing the existence of the state of Israel. It’s what most anti-Zionists do. Don’t be a Manichean twit.
Olmert’s statement.
Barak’s statement.
Again, you need a rather peculiar grasp of English to on the one hand argue that Olmert had said:
“what Olmert called ’sleepwalking into full Apartheid’. “
When the Guardian’s (hardly a very favorable source) statement is:
” “face a South African-style struggle for equal voting rights, and as soon as that happens, the state of Israel is finished”
Which is subtly different.
Of course if you are an “Anti-Zionist” then you might read that wrong, but that’s just par for the course.
Reading skills are not a requirement for certain types of “anti-Zionism”!
Modders:
Your mind boggling capacity at hairsplitting isn’t helpful.
Instead you may want to apologise once for your veiled calls of mendacity on my part? Huh?
Hair-splitting, Gert? They are different haircuts altogether!
So you accept a Jewish state but are anti-Zionist? Does that make you a Zionist anti-Zionist?
Nothing to do with the splitting of hairs, rather acknowledging the Guardian’s obvious bias and wanting to see what was **actually** said.
When you go back and look at the original, you see how selective the Guardian journalists have been in painting the worst picture of Israelis, and then some British-based “anti-Zionists” put in even worse spin on it and invent Olmert saying something that he didn’t say.
Again, a faulty reading of a biased report, with selective quotes is hardly substantive evidence, to anyone outside the field of cranky “anti-Zionism”
In essence what you and Moddrs here do with respect to my arguments is what Holocaust deniers do: by and large they too tend to pick on some very small part of the body of evidence, try and pick a hole in it and then declare the whole theory/body of evidence fallacious. Climate change deniers do it, Creationists do it too.
There’s very little difference between what I said and the Barak/Olmert quotes.
Richard, keep burying your head in the sand with regards to what these leading Zionists said. You’re like the Titanic’s band, they too kept on playing regardless of imminent disaster…
Modders: these quotes are available from a huge variety of sources. With The Grauniad this has nothing to do whatsoever.
A Zionist anti-Zionist? Possibly yes. By your simpleton definitions.
In essence what I’m doing here is asking Gert to substantiate his assertion that:
“what Olmert called ’sleepwalking into full Apartheid’. ”
is true.
Further what I’m pointing out is that you can’t accept in good faith almost anything that these cranky “Anti-Zionists” say about Israelis or Israel.
I looked at the original interview and saw how the Guardian had deliberately left off the beginning of Olmert’s sentence.
I don’t like Olmert or his points, but at least I can read what he says and realise it isn’t as the Guardian and Gert would have us believe.
This is an original link:
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=360533&contrassID=1&subContrassID=1&sbSubContrassID=0&listSrc=Y
Readers can decide how selective the Guardian was…
Modders:
You’ve got the wrong end of the stick altogether. It was you who in fact half accused me of lying with regards to the existence of the quotes. I then googled it and two Grauniad articles came up that referred to these quotes, thereby dispelling another one of your allegations as untrue.
I haven’t read the Guardian articles. I don’t have to: it was sufficient for my point that the quotes in question exist.
I read the link you posted a long time ago, unlike you.
About their interpretation we can squabble but you know what? I’m not going to do this with someone who is deliberately dishonest with respect to just about everything regarding my person.
You are now merely trolling in order to try and disrupt debate. You claimed elsewhere I was stalking you! Really? You even showed up on a thread written by a francophobic bigot, just to get your two cents in (clearly Jewish francophobia doesn’t bother you). When it comes to pursuing me, you’re definitely not picky where or how you do it.
Again the issue is fairly simple,
Gert contends that Olmert said:
“what Olmert called ’sleepwalking into full Apartheid’. ”
I am arguing that he didn’t say that, that is how Gert has read it, but it is an inaccurate reading of Olmert’s views.
The original links show that to be the case, and the Guardian article is just another bias piece of journalism.
Olmert did not say what Gert contends he did.
Olmert:
“Of course I would prefer a negotiated agreement [for two states]. But I personally doubt that such an agreement can be reached within the time-frame available to us.”
Olmert’s “formula for the parameters of a unilateral solution are: To maximize the number of Jews; to minimize the number of Palestinians; not to withdraw to the 1967 border and not to divide Jerusalem.” Large settlements such as Ariel would “obviously” be carved into Israel.
“Maximum Jews, minimum Palestinians” – this harks back to the language of long ago. And indeed, Olmert hankers unabashedly for those more hopeful times. “Twenty-three years ago,” he says, “Moshe Dayan proposed unilateral autonomy. On the same wavelength, we may have to espouse unilateral separation. We won’t need the Palestinians’ support for that. What we would need is to pull ourselves together, to determine where the line should run.”
Maximum, minimum, Dayan, unilateral line – all these seem to add up to large-scale withdrawal from the West Bank and probably full-scale withdrawal from Gaza. Hardly the stock-in-trade of the traditional Likud politician. “These are my own personal contemplations,” Olmert says, “not yet evolved into a full strategy. I speak only for myself … If I wanted to unfold a detailed blueprint I would do so. At this point, this is what I want to say.”
Barak:
Gert, what’s the difference between normal francophobia and jewish francophobia?
I suspect that Modders has no problems with francophobia coming from a Jewish person, i.e. Melchett. It’s hard to otherwise understand how our intrepid racism fighter would not even object a little to Melchett’s belches. Even if one really wanted to dismiss Mechett’s piece as ‘humour’ then consider that that kind of francophobic jokes really are about as funny as antisemitic ‘jokes’, IMHO. And Melchett in any case claims not to like ‘the French’ at all.
So, no there is no ‘Jewish francophobia’ as opposed to ‘normal francophobia’. That wasn’t my point…
Gert, many on the hard-left are racist, homophobic and misogynistic by proxy because that is exactly the type of people and groups they support. Oh, and fascist to boot. They are as bad as the hard-right. The difference is the hard-left and the hard-right have different priorities but they are both as bad as each other.
It is no secret that many Brits dislike many French and visa versa. I think that Napoleon described the English (or British – I forget) as a nation of shopkeepers and it is said that many British soldiers were disappointed to reach the trenches In World War One and discover that their enemies were Germans not French. Apparently, some never did. Until today many Brits and French call each other “roast beef” and “frogs” respectively, but not too respectfully.
Such states of dislike often exist between nations, I’ve heard that there’s no love lost between the Belgians and the Dutch, and that they both hate the Germans, perhaps Gert could confirm this?
All these national quirks, whether they really exist or not, whether they are good or bad (most likely the latter on both counts), are not to be compared to or confused with genuine racism, such as the hatred of Jews because of their faith or blacks because of their skins. There has been no French holocaust of British and no Belgian enslavement of their Dutch neighbors.
To compare Mike’s dislike of the French with antisemitism is absurd and an insult to anyone who has ever been the victim of real racism and and, no less, an insult to most readers intelligence. Clearly Gert meticulously scanned Mike’s excellent blog searching for something, anything, that he could use to prove that “You’re as bad as me!” , alas, he came up with slim pickings.
It reminds me of a hitch-hiker I once saw waiting for a lift and when a car didn’t stop for him he muttered under his breath, “They’re worse than the Nazis.” I hoped for his sake that he should never know what real suffering is, and likewise, I hope for Gert’s sake that the only racism he ever knows is Mike’s moderately amusing postings about “the French”.
Finally, I too mourn the author of this blog’s decision not to extend his belief in free speech to the likes of Gamil. He was neither Shakespearian in his English, nor the wisest of Arabs, but there was something quite genuine about him which contrasted quite starkly with the smug hypocrisy of the likes of Gert.
Daniel, I didn’t stop Gamil. I politely suggested he go elsewhere after his praising of the two female suicide bombers in Moscow a few weeks ago. How can a blog become a posting board for glorifying terrorism? And he left this in Arabic as you can see above March 31st: “I want to write to you in Arabic so the Zionists will not understand. It’s okay?”
I don’t understand what there is to learn from someone like Gamil but if Gamil wants to tell us why he glorifies in innocent people being murdered then he is free to explain.
Hi Richard,
Your point is well taken, however, I would contend that many of those who see themselves as our enemies glorify terrorism, at least in their hearts (or in Arabic).
We all remember the initial response of the Palestinian people to 9/11 before the PLO PR men and apologists stepped in:
It’s only a question of taste, but I’d prefer to hear their truth, however, vile and disgusting than to hear some Belgian saying the things that he thinks we want to hear. – I believe that one day there will be peace but the peacemakers will be men of truth who say what they mean and mean what they say.
By the way, great blog!
Daniel, I agree with you wholehearteadly, except the point on one day there will be peace. Someone like Gert doesn’t understand the conflict at all. You and I know how complicated it is, but it is good to hear what Gert says in that many pro-Palestine supporters are like him. Some are much more reasonable I have to say but these are usually those who have studied the conflict in some depth. The likes of Gert seem never to have picked up a book on it and therefore do no one any favours, most of all the Palestinians. Thank you very much for the compliment.
Daniel:
Melchett’s screed is pure racism of the type one finds often in middle aged Brits that haven’t gotten over the end of Empire yet. That hatred and pure ignorance is often extended to all foreign countries. When my father-in-law came to visit his daughter and me when we were living in Italy, he once laconically exclaimed that ‘Italy would be OK is it wasn’t for all the FOREIGNERS!’ He meant it. “British is Best”, you see…
If I was a Frenchman I would take great offence to Melchett’s belches. As it so happens there are few things I deplore as much as racism so I took offence all the same.
The fact that these feelings are often reciprocated by those at the receiving of the racism doesn’t change anything.
Melchett’s screed mirrors antisemitism and other forms of racism in the sense that it relies on extreme stereotypes, clichés and some horrible untruths.
It never ceases to amaze me that those who are or have been at the receiving end of racism are so cavalier about dishing it up themselves. Your own comment regarding Palestinian culture over at my blog smacks of racism too.
Do you dismiss also racism against Catholics (for instance in Protestant Britain) on the grounds that there was no Catholic Holocaust? Islamophobia?
Melchett should thank his lucky stars that his little web rag is basically unread: published in any major publication he would have been made to hang his head in shame…
Now it’s matter of time before someone starts moaning about ‘political correctness gone mad!’
…’ I too’… why, who else do you see here ‘mourning’? Good riddance to Gamil is what I say.
Richard:
This conflict is in essence not complicated at all: Israel needs to abide by International Law. Period.
It’s always suited Zionism to try and present it as an immensely complicated affair so that we can’t see the wood for the trees anymore. But many of us still can…
“But many of us still can”.
There speaks the lawyer! I wish I had your insight into international law, Gert. Where did you study international law? In fact, where did you study law?
“You see Sir, you really can’t help yourself, can you? What’s with the ‘some Belgian’? Why is my nationality of any importance is this context?”
I have absolutely nothing against Belgians and certainly was not referring to Belgian stereotypes of you guys having little Johnsons. In that context, We are assured by the The BELGIAN ANTI DEFAMATION INSTITUTE that this claim is “..open to debate and only partially true.” – anyway it’s your problem, not mine.
I am an Israeli and so are my children. I am proud of being a Jew, an Israeli and a Zionist and thank G-d every day for allowing me to be so. I say to you too Gert, be proud of your origins and of your culture and don’t be offended to be called a Belgian.
Richard:
When a Zionist has run out of steam they resort to ‘International law’.
Legalistic arguments will not solve this conundrum. The ‘Laws’ are written by the victors and the powerful. If world opinion convincingly and consistently turns against Israel’s policy vis-à-vis the Palestinians, as it eventually did in the case of SA, then Israel will have to back off, no amount of legalese will change that.
For reasons understandable, the world is slow to wake up to major injustices (which are often for a long time seen as ‘far from my bed’). But eventually it always does, the arrow of time points to justice.
Israel may have a watch but we have the time.
You resorted to international law, Gert. As for your last line, well how chilling. You sound more and more like Hamas with every post. And you say you are not a supporter. Laughable.
Daniel:
Unlike you I don’t take pride in what is essentially an accident of birth.
And unlike the many, my ego doesn’t require propping up with implanted nationalistic mythology.
I’m a fervent anti-Nationalist. I see Nationalism as one of the scourges of the Earth and possibly also a passing fad. I see ‘Little Ingelanders’ like Mike ‘bweurk’ Melchett and I see the BNP. I see just how divisive Nationalism really is that to try and blacken the name of another Nationality imbeciles like him have to resort to horrible, ‘gallicphobic’ lies. The same type of lies used to turn Jews into scapegoats and worse throughout much of history.
Those who can’t understand that fighting racism means fighting ALL racism can’t be helped.
My criticism of Israel’s policy vis-à-vis the Palestinians is just that: criticism of Israel’s policy vis-à-vis the Palestinians. I haven’t got an antisemitic bone in me. Rest assured though that what Belchin’ Melchett and you think of me really leaves me stone cold.
Richard:
Your main tactic is to distort what I say or create a straw man.
To Israel’s policies with regards the OT an end will come. Then Israel may indeed be able to shine its light unto the Nations.
Over fourty years of this charade will not be extended for another fourty years.
You are dishonest, Sir.
I agree, Gert, but the hard-left discriminates by picking on one nationalism alone, Jewish nationalism. What about the hundreds of other nationalisms in the world? That is why there are big alarm bells with the hard-left in addition to the homophobes and misogynists they seem to condone.
For one, the idea that the ‘hard left’ singles out Israel is largely a figment of your imagination. You and I are actually members of a fairly ‘exclusive club’: those that take an interest in Israel/Palestine (it’s a dirty job but someone’s gotta do it). Just about every problem spot in the world gets scrutinised by the ‘Left’ and by Rights groups.
I don’t see you complain about Israel being singled out by the US’s Super Special Relationship or about the fact the Israel receives more aid from the US than all other countries combined.
Incidentally, I’m far from crazy about Palestinian Nationalism either but I note that early Palestinian resistance focused very much on the Right to Return and not on the creation of a state. And today I still believe ultimate justice would be served by the two people living together in the SAME state.
Gert,
As is often the case with certain critics that I’ve met, you’re actually becoming quite likable.
You mention your “accident of birth” which I note was chronologically close to my carefully planned conception. Incidentally, we are both 48-years-old Tauruses.
Since the Holocaust, calling oneself an Anti-Semite is unfashionable. Without doubt Hitler et al (who I have no doubt you sincerely detest) gave you guys a bad name. Today those gentiles who don’t like Jews have had to choose between various options:
1. To say what you believe and believe what you say, like your friend Gamil does. On the one hand this is honest, however, like I said it’s quite socially unacceptable.
2. To deny “question” or “revise” Holocaust history. This can be done explicitly as many Anti-Semites and anti-Zionists do, or implicitly by comparing Israel behavior in Gaza or American behavior in Iraq to the Nazis. The latter is much more sly and a fine example might be your:
“…when the Allies bombed 30,000 to 100,000 Germans into oblivion in Dresden in one single, extended …. Did the British decide to pack it in because of intense bombing runs over British towns and cities?”
It is quite subtle and because it creates a fallacy of moral equivalence. IN this post-modern understanding of history, Hitler bombing London is compared to Churchill bombing Dresden. There is no good and no bad. Many people were killed in the war, innocent Jewish victims and SS officers alike, I suppose they all had mothers.
3. The third method and most popular response is to become an Anti-Zionist rather than an Anti-Semite. Surely it can’t be immoral to disagree with a political ideology? And after all there are Jewish Anti-Zionists too, aren’t there?
All the traditional tools of the Anti-Semite can now be used. The Jews’ shops can be boycotted, he can be told where he can live and where he can’t and can even be told that if he wants to live peacefully, he should pay (land for peace).
Those who attack the Jew are not terrorists but heroes and if he tries to defend himself he’ll be punished for that too.
And, like I said, the best part of all is that the 48-year-old Belgian Anti-Semite even gets to roll his eyes to the heavens and say, “I haven’t got an antisemitic bone in me..”
Dear Daniel,
Like I said, what you think of me is completely immaterial to me. Your post contains nonetheless obvious fallacies:
Gamil is not my friend. I elaborated on that at length. You’re dishonest.
I did not do that, neither explicitly nor implicitly.
No moral equivalence was implied or intended. There is none.
I’m on record here stating Jews can live wherever they want in the world, including Israel proper, Gaza and the West Bank. But that courtesy should be extended to those who are also indigenous to Palestine.
And now Sir, you really have wasted more than enough of my time. I’m very pleased for you that you have found yet another ‘antisemite’. A real feather in your cap, Sir.
Any more of your ramblings will be ignored here by me.
Gert
Concerning your answer to me 4th April, I shall repeat again.Yes they do wish to destroy us, all you have to do is read what they write and listen to what they say.
Regarding the Naqba:
When a country a people is fighting for its existence, shit happens.
The ridiculous thing is that our neighbours keep trying to harm and destroy us and when they fail start crying about how evil we are because we fight back and hurt their civillians.
When the smoke dies down they again cry out to the world that we are really really bad because we refuse to relinquish the safer borders that we have acquired so that they can try again or because we refuse to accept millions of people who hate us into our land.
Then along come the Peace loving Gerts who for some unfathonable reason seem to think that they have found the magic solution where the rest of us have missed it.
“Just give them a state and it will all be alright!” they wail “Don’t you want peace?” They cry out in desperation.
“Oh how foolish we have been! How could we have missed it? It was staring us in the face the whole time!”
Gert I for one would like to thank you for helping me see the light
BTW, I’m not a ‘Taurus’ and neither are you: horoscopy is 100 % quack-science.
Good grief Gert! Not Belgian nationalism, not Zionism, not horoscopes – is nothings sacred?
Michael:
Wow, that was quite a tirade!
Simple question: do you believe West bank settlements improve Israel’s security?
EXTRA! EXTRA! READ ALL ABOUT IT:Israeli FM warns Palestinians not to declare state
Yawn…
Gestapo Gert,
Your comment that my “little web rag is basically unread” did make me smile!
A fleeting glance of my front page shows large participation – 250 comments, 49 comments, 42 comments, 37 comments, etc – not to mention 215,000 ‘hits’ in a year and a half (or will you argue that, like the six million, the figure is the product of Jewish lies?!)
A study of your Webtake on Mein Kamp, however, shows “0 comments” almost as much as a dislike of Jews. What does that tell you about YOUR blog, Gestapo?! In fact, if you weren’t such an extremist anti-Zionist, no one would even know you existed. Is it, perhaps, a desperate cry for attention?!
[If you haven’t already, just click on http://advant.blogspot.com/2009/09/quinton-tarantinos-inglorious-bastards.html and search “Gert” to get some understanding of Gestapo’s “form”. It starts to get really interesting on 14 September.]
“I haven’t got an antisemitic bone in me.”
Then why does Gert use the Far Right’s terminology?
Is it pure ignorance? Or something else?
“do you believe West bank settlements improve Israel’s security?” – Can I answer that one?
I believe that evacuating them or stopping building them would harm Israeli security as it would persuade the Palestinians, and the rest of the Arab world, that pressure on Israel leads her to give up land. Enough pressure and she’ll give it all up.
I live in a West Bank settlement and it is because of its (Maale Adumim) presence and growth that no government could severely weaken Israel’s borders at a whim.
West Bank settlements are not here to “improve Israel’s security” and I’d support their growth even if they didn’t. They are a wonderful manifestation of the miraculous rebirth of my people in its land after 2,000 years of cruel exile.
Come and see for yourself. I live on a hill top that has been barren since the beginnings of time and is now blossoming. BTW There are plenty more hilltops nearby, for ALL our neighbors too.
I join you in hoping that in the same way as we have witnessed the realization of the prophesies of Ezekiel and Jeremiah, we shall see the realization of the prophesy of Avigdor Lieberman.
Here’s hoping!
Actually, Gert, the hard left is obsessed with Israel, or the lack of an Israel, which all stemmed from Lenin. They hijack the unions and call for boycotts of Israel while staying silent over the huge amounts of murders taking place in Iran, Sudan, China etc. while, additionally, condoning the behaviour of homophobes and misogynists.
So the alarm bells start riniging when some are so devoted to bringing down just Israel. Anti-Semitism just doesn’t disappear, it transforms.
As someone said above it is now uncool to admit to anti-Semitism.
But anti-Zionism, under the cloak of human rights, is the perfect cover. Many on the hard-left have perfected this mantra and so cannot now be accused of anti-Semitism.
As for America giving more aid to Israel than all the rest combined, Israel gets $3bn as does Egypt, for starters.
Modders:
What ‘Far Right terminology’ do I use? You are wrong about me Sir, just admit it. And the Far Right doesn’t say a lot about Israel: they just hate Jews: Classic Antisemitism (TM). But the EDL and the BNP do support Israel and Zionism: those are FACTS.
Belchin’ Melchett:
You’re not worth my time either.
Richard:
Your Lenin story really amuses me. Either I’m not Hard Left enough or it’s too far before my time.
What I can say with certainty is the European Left (I cannot vouch for the British Left) overwhelmingly supported Israel up to about 1970ish. The shells started falling from many eyes around that time. Lebanon I and Sabra – Shatilah was another of those moments that rocked what remaining support was left among the European Left.
Gradually things went from bad to worse. That’s my story of ever dwindling support for Israel. Today I simply feel foolish having once supported what is no more than a banal colonial project.
Off topic:
I saw your performance on ‘ME Today’. Priceless. I don’t know about ‘independent journalist’ but ‘dodgy politician’ would definitely be within your capabilities. Lemmesee: first question, purses lips to form the two Hs: ‘Hamas, Hezbollah!’ Second question (about Israel’s nukes): ignores question altogether, starts prattling about Iran’s belligerency. Called to order, continues to ignore question. Interviewer concluded you haven’t answered the question. Shame it wasn’t Jeremy Paxman…
Daniel:
Cut a long story short and claim the land between the river and the other river as yours. G-d told you so, did he not? Don’t beat around the bush, fermosessake…
Not “worth [your] time” eh, “0 comments”? Why’s that? Got to write another Jew-inspired monologue (during your unemployment) that no one’s gonna read?!
You could, instead, take some Belgian chocolates down to Bridlington beach and find some little boys . . .
Gert’s use of terms like “Jewish supremacist” echoes David Duke and other Far Righters
and if he had an ounce of sense he’d know that.
Modders:
There EXIST indeed Jews with a supremacy complex! And no, I’m not referring to the religious concept of ‘the Chosen People’. I’m referring to Jews, often Israelis but often not that are deeply racist and condescending towards Arabs/Palestinians/Goy and clearly feel superior to them.
The ‘We are a Real People’ and ‘they are not’ is practically part of the staple diet of Zionism.
Much of my life in the blogosphere has been spent combating these ideas. The thanks I get? That I should shut up because I’m responsible for the murder of two million Jewish children! (Comment made, with other similar ones, at the Hasbara Buster blog).
Please don’t come and tell and me they are a minority: I never claimed otherwise. But they exist and I know some of them personally. Mad Zionist (look it up, a blogspot blog) was actually a FRIEND of mine: Well, Madze (as I used to call him) is a Kahanist. Another Far Right Israeli friend of mine (we communicated for years) from the erstwhile HearOIsrael, later the Continuedinchicago blog, was also a Kahanist. You’ll find many ‘Kahane Lives!’ buttons on Ultra Zionist. Greg made Aliyah then came back to the US. Main reason? Blatant racism towards Jews of Russian origin… My more progressive Zionist friend and pen pal Alex Stein, from Falsedichotomies.com, has also complained about racism: the ‘you weren’t born here’ type of racism.
Unlike you Sir, I don’t waste my time writing belletrist screeds against completely innocent people like Rev Sizer, instead I put my armpit high wellies on, goggles and breathing apparatus if need be and I wade in there: into the dregs of the Ultra Zionist underbelly of the Ziosphere.
Despite all that, these aren’t the reasons for my anti-Zionism (which is probably comparable to Gideon Levy’s – see the interview with Electronic Intifada). Israel’s crimes against the Palestinian people are. A people that didn’t hurt a hair on a Jewish head before ‘Zionism’ came along.
FREE PALESTINE!
When you echo the language and sentiments of racists (David Duke, etc), and when you use loaded terminology as “Jewish supremacist” then you are either incredibly stupid, unaware of antiracism or a dolt for the Far Right.
I accept that any one of those possible answers or a combination of them is probably true in this case.
If you don’t want to be thought of as a racist, then stop using their terminology.
Sir, your reasoning is incredibly feeble.
There is no need for me to avoid terms that are used by others, in the same way that as an Atheist I feel no compunction to avoid Biblical language.
When some Jews or Zionists come up with things that smack strongly of racial superiority I’m entitled to call a spade a spade. When Blacks do the same (and Black Supremacist groups exist too) I feel no compunction to avoid the term ‘Black Supremacist’ just because someone else has used it too.
The Truth Sir, stands on its own, independent of the beholder.
If a superficial and coincidental resemblance in terms (very occasionally) used by me and my own opponents is the only thing you’ve got against me, then your case isn’t just wafer thin, it’s also non existent.
You Sir, would in other times have been capable of sending people to the gallows on the flimsiest of grounds. A real witchhunter is what you are. You and your pal Eichmann, oops, I meant Seismic Schmuck.
Your fanaticism regards uncovering antisemitism does the fight against racism no good: with each false positive the value of the term racism gets diminished. It should come as no surprise that the real antisemites now just laugh at the accusation because ‘they say that about anyone, anyway’. Well done…
I think I was correct in my original assessment, he’s a bit stupid, doesn’t know anything of antiracism and is a useful idiot for the Far Right.
Where the devil is Gert, that Belgian Taurus?
“Cut a long story short and claim the land between the river and the other river as yours. G-d told you so, did he not?”
Yup, but as a man of peace I’ll agree to settle for about 25% of Mandate Palestine.
If they try and destroy Israel again in another war, God forbid, that percentage may well grow. Tell your friends to curb their appetites – for all our sakes.
By the way, your “FREE PALESTINE” tickled my funny bone. Have you any idea how free the Gaza Strip is since it was freed by the Hamas?
If you’re an unlucky Fatah supporter you get machine-gunned in a field. The lucky ones were given flying lessons from six floor buildings. The free women are allowed to reveal their eyes. The free children have their schools used as missile launching bases in the hope that Israel may fire back and they’ll be something to put on CNN. That’s the lucky ones. The unlucky ones have explosives strapped to them and are sent of to be Shahids.
Gaza is so free that not one Israeli Arab has moved there to enjoy the freedom. Many have turned up in their underpants at the Israeli border begging to be saved from Palestinian freedom.
I think it was Golda Meyer who said that peace won’t come until our enemies learn to love their children more than they hate ours.
It may be a long wait, but I believe the day will come.
FREE PALESTINE – WHO LOVES YE BABY?
Don’t worry, Daniel, Gert has his response all worked out: “Hamas massacres Palestinians, about 600 of them in the last 8 years according to B’Tselem, because of Israel. And while I am no supporter of Hamas, democratically elected terrorists have the right to rule Gaza. Free Palestine. signed, Gert”
Richard,
I’m okay with all of that and believe me nobody adores the Gert more than I, sadly, my feelings are not always reciprocated.
Though I can’t speak on the Hamas’ behalf, I’d offer the Gert to pop over to Free Gaza himself. Strangely, their tourism is going through a bit of a slump, despite the gorgeous free beaches etc, and I’m sure they’d find him a decent hotel room, free or not.
There the Girt would get s first-hand view of Free Palestine, I would, however, advise him to keep his reservations about the free Palestinian leadership to a minimum as he may bump into Gamil and his pals there who may feel free to execute a bit of Free Palestinian Islamic justice.
My only tips in such an eventuality would be to write his will ahead of time and have a haircut as he may well find himself on CNN with a free Palestinian pistol to his head, begging for his miserable life. Always nice to look one’s best on such occasions.
After all that, and assuming he’s still in one (Belgian) piece, he’s welcome to join the throngs of free Palestinians begging to enter our Zionist entity for reasons of marriage, medical treatment, protection from terrorists (oops-sorry freedom-fighters) or any other excuse they can think of. As indicated earlier, they often come in their undies lest they be mistaken for human time-bombs, so the Girt may want to make sure he has a clean pair handy for the occasion. Marks and Spencer are good but hardly free. White seem quite customary.
If he makes it over, it should be safe sailing. We’d be happy to be his gracious hosts. Girt would wake in the morning to a view of the Mount of Olives by the sweet song our local mosque caller. Such is the peaceful life on our tiny 40,000 man strong West Bank settlement.
Anyway, whatever Girt decides to do, we love him very much and may his God be with him.
FREE PALESTINE!!
Modders:
Who here is shilling for the most Far Right government in the Western world (because that’s what Israel is part of: it’ll never be a part of the Middle East)?
If such a government came to power in a European country alarm bells would go off Left, Right and Centre. Not so when it comes to Israel: move along, nothing to see here folks, just some Far Right landgrabbers going about their business in the name of G-d!
Your routine of calling opponents ‘stupid’ rings seriously hollow and smacks of absence of ideas or counter arguments.
I believe you’re a semitophile: that’s the other side of the antisemitic coin.
Daniel:
Why, pry tell, would I try and engage with a West Bank settler? You’re personally part of the problem!
Richard:
You just keep believing ‘de Gamas’ is the problem , the whole problem and nothing but the problem, so help you G-d. You’ll always find takers.
Gert, if the Israeli government is so far right i wonder what that makes the Jew-killing Hamas machine?
Interviewer: ‘So Richard Millet, what did you think of the weather today?’
Richard Millett: ‘Well, according to the Hamas Charter…’
You’re obsessed with Hamas, Richard.
In the Grander Scheme of Things they aren’t that important. They’re quite a recent phenomenon. They were initially sponsored by Israel (ask yourself why?).
They are clearly ‘Fatahising‘ and increasingly in favour of a political solution, not a military one. You might even (arbitrarily) claim the IDF taught them a lesson.
The fact you can only ever mention Hamas, like some demented parrot, shows also your paucity of arguments and the bankruptcy of Zionism as an ideology.
The fact you can only ever mention Hamas, like some demented parrot, shows also your paucity of arguments and the bankruptcy of Zionism as an ideology.
You’re not a journalist: you’re a propagandist who shills for Zionism and makes a bit of money by being Press TV’s resident Hasbarah parrot. You have no integrity whatsoever.
And to Modders, a simple question, no hidden agenda:
You no longer appear on CiFWatch as a contributor. Care to explain why?
C’mon Gert is that the best you can do? “Why, pry tell,”…”You’re personally part …”
Have you been taking English lesson from your friend Gamil?
Either way, it’s my shabbat so you have 25 hours to think of something more lucid to say.
By the way, I’m doing all I can to help out on your flagging blog, but you want to be developing the old sense of humor a bit, and think of more interesting topics to write about. I say that as a friend and I’m sure Gamil would agree, and maybe Mrs. Girt could help out.
Alternatively, you might take a leaf or two out of Richard’s and Mike’s excellent blogs.
Shabbat shalom from Maale Adumim, my old (48) Belgian waffler,
Daniel
Interesting piece by Akiva Eldar – Ha’aretz. Not a ‘Real Jew’, needless to say 😉 :
Daniel:
Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz…
Great piece, Gert. I don’t agree with it and it is interesting how Eldar cowardly doesn’t name names. I wonder what reaction a piece written by a Gazan would receive if it was critical of the Hamas “government”. Would their hands be tied in front of them or behind them as they were thrown off the roof of a tower block?
Since as you continue to claim you’re a journalist you might want to take into account a second opinion on Hamas, a short eyewitness account from Dalia El Massri. Dalia is NOT a Hamas supporter, BTW…
“prior to Hamas being elected anyone could kill anyone in the street”
Yup. Now it is just Hamas that does the killings.
Your flippant remarks and cartoonish responses show once again that you aren’t a serious journalist but a deeply partisan propagandist whose sole raison d’être is to deflect any criticism of Israel onto ‘de Ghamas’. I see very partisan, pro-Israel journalists who show far greater depth and insight than you do. It’s without a shimmer of doubt the reason that you are relegated to freelance work.
. . . says the unemployed seaside dweller who spends his entire existence writing a blog that has no readers and “0 comments”!
You just couldn’t make it up!
Sorry, I forgot “and giving out sweets”.
Micky:
Don’t you dare come between me and my Richard: me and the missus are probably Richard’s greatest fans on Press TV! Stopwatch in hand we wait until he appears to measure how many seconds it will take before he purses these fine lips of his and pronounces: ‘Hamas!’ He never disappoints and he’s getting faster. And he’s always polite and respectful. He should wink at us really, come to think of it 😉
So exactly what is good on PressTV and why would anyone with sense want to watch it?
Modders:
Like so many ‘International news networks’ there’s some total rubbish and some very good stuff too.
Good stuff: ME Today, The Agenda, The Link, Real Deal, American Dream, The Autograph, Remember Palestine.
Boring: Iran Today, Islam and Life.
Variable: some great docs about just about anything. Very good (but old) Occupation 101, Gabriel’s Gold (about a gold mine in Romania), some others too.
Some crap: anti-American screeds that are funny to watch because they mirror Western anti-Iranian agitprop a la Fox or CNN.
Now will you be courteous and answer my question too?
It is rather too late for me to delete my anti-French post, but I have now dedicated it (see the end) to the fight against racism:
Mike:
You haven’t done anything of the sort: you’ve simply created another link to your page about me.
Your attempts at humour are pathetic: you now have two racist screeds for the price of one. If you can’t see Sir, that again, tarring an entire country with the brush of pedophilia in order to try and feebly get your own back against one citizen of that country is deeply offensive then you’re beyond help.
My own criticism pertains to wrongdoing by the Government of Israel in the context of the ME conflict. They do NOT pertain to the Jewish PEOPLE or the Jewish RELIGION.
I have very often very heavily criticised also the British Government, the American Government and others, as the archives of my blog testify to. Not once has a citizen of these countries considered these criticisms as criticism of the British people, the American people, their values or their way of life or racist in any way.
When it comes to Israel and Zionism that is an entirely different kettle of fish, here the critic almost never escapes either open or veiled accusations of antisemitism. Israel’s own government often follows suit with great gusto. Here’s but one example of a few years ago:
Oooops, that last paragraph should not have been blockquoted, my bad.
My post – http://melchettmike.wordpress.com/2010/03/26/the-israel-only-bashers-a-case-study-bridlington-gert/ for anyone who has not yet been lucky enough – is not “about [you]”, Gert . . . but about what you represent.
Whilst I am “beyond help”, you totally miss my point re Belgian paedophilia: that I haven’t devoted my life to it to the exclusion of all else (as you have to Israel and Zionists). Too subtle, I guess.
“They do NOT pertain to the Jewish PEOPLE or the Jewish RELIGION.”
I say they DO, even if you don’t know it. I believe (as I explain in my post) that it is not mere coincidence that you are focusing SOLELY on a JEWISH country and JEWISH people (“Since Gaza and until further notice this blog will be dedicated to the Palestinian people’s struggle for statehood.”)
Your Zionist ‘friend’,
melchie
PS Why do you call everyone “Sir”?!
Exactly, Mike. It’s strange that Gert doesn’t devote his “blog” to attacking America and Britain in light of his beloved anti- war movement’s figures for civilian deaths in afghanistan and iraq. But then again you get the impression that he and his missus just love dancing around the house singing “Free Free Palestine” for an evening’s entertainment.
I’d cut Gert some slack, anyone that think Press TV is a good channel and something decent to watch probably isn’t playing with a full pack of cards 🙂
Belchin’ Melchett:
You’re quite the mind reader, aren’t you?
You, ‘SUBTLE’?????
HAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAH…
You’re too dumb take seriously… Please don’t call me your ‘friend’: ‘Little Ingelanders’ and assorted ‘I’m not PC’ buffoons I’ve fought all my life.
And still you can’t see why Gaza made so many people so angry?
To the both of you: do you really think blowhards like you are gonna shut people up, somehow?
Not too difficult reading YOUR “mind”, my friend. As I told you when this all started, we can smell your lot a mile off.
It’s Yom Hashoah (Holocaust Memorial Day) here now. What you doing to celebrate?
Modders:
Time and time again I tell you resemble the blowhard Conservative Israel Firsters I used to encounter so often: their critique (if you can call it that) of the then emerging Al Jazeera mirrors yours.
What you should do of course is voice your concern (about a channel you don’t watch) to the hundreds of people that appear on it, from all walks of life and all religions and that comment, opine, sometimes fulminate freely about a set of topics that’s too long to describe. They would laugh you away…
You’re strange bugger: I saw your chastising of Islamophobe Bill Corr at David Osler’s. Spot on. So why the hopeless blinkers on so many other things?
Why would anyone half way sensible watch a channel funded by Ahmadinejad, occasional friend of David Duke?
Why would anyone with reasoning skills higher than a pigeon want to watch a channel which promotes the work of David Irving’s friend, Lady Renouf?
etc etc
Having a little commemorative book burning on Bridlington Beach?
Modders:
Tell it to the myriads of Israel supporters (AND Iran opponents) that are keenly invited to take part and speak freely on Press TV’s multiple forum-style programs, among others our host here, but also Jonathan Hoffman, Geoffrey Alderman, Charlie Wolf, Richard Hellman, Raanan Gissen, Yossi Mekelberg etc etc. The list just goes on and on and on.
Modders, you plonker… You’re a Manichean twit. AND you’ve got a thing with David Duke: careful with that…
Richard:
Yeah, funny old world, innit? Stop the War Coalition AntiWar.com etc are all critical of Israel’s policies in the OTs and you know what? They all get labeled antisemitic too!
The truth is that the only criticism of Israel that would be acceptable (and not raise ‘suspicions’) would be along the lines of telling WB settlers to wash the Israel flags more frequently. They do so often look a bit dusty (does that count too? 😉 )
Absolutely right, my clumsy wording, what I should have written was:
Why would anyone who doesn’t have hang ups about Jews, isn’t prejudice or an admirer of Ahmadinejad, want to consciously watch Press TV **and** actually think that it is a legitimate news outlet?
I understand why some people go on it to counter the anti-Jewish racism there, but I think they are misguided.
I think that bigots and cranks who watch Press TV and like it are probably beyond reason, so it is a waste of time going on to the channel in the hope of winning people over or fighting the condensed anti-Jewish racism which exist there.
Because it is a legitimate news outlet. Who are you? The Decider?
They’d have a Ministry Media and Information Control job for you in Britain if it was a totalitarian state.
Yaketiyak. Press also produces G-d only knows how many programs that are completely unrelated to the ME. And where’s the ‘anti-Jewish’ racism? More criticism of Israel and open, uninhibited debate deliberately conflated with ‘antisemitism’.
Your criticism of Press is reminiscent of Meircan Conservative bloggers calling CNN the ‘Communist News Networks’.
Modders, in the hands of the likes of you the fight against racism would become a truly dangerous activity for those who dissent from your rigid views. See also the EUMC ‘WD’ on AS, which undoubtedly you support.
You’re a terrible little man.
I suppose only the ill informed, bigoted or chronically stupid would consider the state funded Press TV to be a legitimate news outlet, when it gives prominence to the views of neo-Nazis and their friends.
Not that their bigoted viewers would necessarily notice.
When you run out of arguments it’s back to calling people ‘ill informed’ or ‘stupid’. It’s a brilliant line of reasoning, I’ve gotta say.
As regards ‘Neo-Nazis and their friends’, that’s just more gratuitous cackling: where on Press TV are those ‘Neo-Nazis’ of which you speak? Considering you also consider me a ‘Far Right bigot’, I can imagine that your definition of ‘Neo-Nazi’ must be extremely elastic and used solely as a swear word without any further meaning. Without much doubt also Galloway will get that epithet from you, so I guess I’m in good company.
Funny that really, while I refrain almost completely from Nazi analogies (because they’re mostly inaccurate and definitely over-used), some of Israel’s actions in the past are decidedly Naziesque. You only need to look at the IDF’s massacres in Raffah and Khan Younis in 1956 to see examples of retaliation that were also deployed against French, Belgian, Dutch etc resistors by the Nazis. The parallel is almost perfect.
First off, those admirers of Press TV should make an elementary effort to inform themselves about Lady Renouf, who boasts of her work and connections with Press TV.
She even apparently appeared on a programme discussing Israel 60th anniversary.
Why any legitimate news outlet would invite this neo-Nazi to discussed Israel is beyond me.
Press TV’s admirers should also familiarise themselves with Nick Kollerstrom and his infamous and repulsive essay, The Walls of Auschwitz, given prominence by Press TV.
“while I refrain almost completely from Nazi analogies,” Israel has behaved like the Nazis.
Gert, you really are a cunt of some proportions (and I reserve that word for the best of them).
Modders:
I watch Press TV regularly (but I’m not an ‘admirer’, nice try!) and I’ve never seen Lady Renouf or Nick Kollerstrom (who???). I apologise if I’ve not heard of every f*cking Neo-Nazi on the planet, many are too comical to take seriously…
I’m the same counts for the many who comment/contribute/work for Press.
Belchin’ Melchett:
I’d do something about those reading difficulties of yours, if I was you. Start with the ABC perhaps…
‘And the same counts’, of course.
I suspect that those so indoctrinated by daily viewing of Press TV couldn’t spot a neo-Nazi if he was standing in front of their face, and given the material emanating from Press TV I doubt that its admirers would give a damn either way, they’d probably feel that Lady Renouf and the neo-Nazi, Nick Kollerstrom are hard done by and deserve more publicity? Who knows?
But it is striking how “anti-Zionists” can have full access to the Internet and yet remain ignorant on these topics.
Probably self-inflicted?
Modders:
In your eyes I’m a neo-Nazi, ’nuff said. Renouf and Kollerstrom I’ve never seen on Press TV, not once.
As regards the use of quote marks around anti-Zionism, it’s clear your mind is made up (and please don’t confuse it with the facts). The point-blank equating of anti-Zionism and antisemitism makes any further conversation impossible. While there are some (like Hirsh) who claim some criticism of Zionism may be acceptable, there are those like you who will equate the two, completely. Well, you’ve just devalued the term antisemitism some more. Funnily enough you’re on Engage’s blogroll: I wonder whether he knows about your particular stance?
Finally Mr ‘purer than the driven snow’, I’d carefully watch your back if I was you. Particularly when blogging about Israel, “Zionism” or antisemitism: I know commenters who have made deeply racist remarks over at HP a propos Arabs/Muslims/Palestinians and who frequent your blog.
As far as I’m concerned this thread is now over.
Gert, how’s about combining the dislike of Jews with the Belgian fondness for children in a Bridlington extravaganza . . .
“First there was The Night of the Broken Glass. Now, Gert Meyers brings you The Night of the Broken-in Ass.”
It could be huge, transforming you from an unemployed Belgian nothing to an . . . well, to an unemployed Belgian nothing with a criminal record.
I freely accept that the complacent Press TV viewer, who can’t use the Internet to research Lady Renouf and the neo-Nazi, Nick Kollerstrom doesn’t have to be a neo-Nazi themselves.
Rather it is perfectly possible to explain away their attitude as ingrained stupidity, intellectual indolence and an inability to use the right click on a mouse.
If an “Anti-Zionist” can’t see why Ahmadinejad sponsored Press TV and its racist themes is problematic then I can only assume that monumental ignorance is part and parcel of their world outlook, and that they have no problem with Ahmadinejad’s aggressive form of racism.
In such a case said “Anti-Zionist” is probably beyond the pale of civilised discussion.
“The fact you can only ever mention Hamas, like some demented parrot……..” – Gert
How do you dare!
The Hamas is not a “demented parrot”. He is the legitimately elected representative of the Palestinean nation.
‘Curse be upon your mustache!’
Gamil:
Learn to read: in that sentence Richard Millett is the demented parrot. No offence meant to your English but if you can’t understand the basic structure of a sentence then that’s annoying.
Modders:
Bit of a fascistoid prick, aren’t you, really? Inside the attack Chihuahua lurks a little book burner, I feel. Hardly surprising of a supporter of an oppressive neo-colonial regime…
I suggest you compile a list of Press TV contributors and warn them about the perils of Press TV, Ahmadinejad, Lady Grenouille and Herr Sodyoustrom. You think they’ll see moi as the crank? Or you?
Press and Jeera are networks that are in the ascent because people like to hear news and opinion from another perspective once in a while. Most of Press TV’s shows are hardly controversial and provide ample space to those with opposing views. See also Millett, he’s hardly OFF their screens, fermozessake!
But let us think on this, why would anyone who considers himself to be an antiracist, who isn’t hung up on Jews want to watch Press TV **and** consider it to be a legitimate new source?
No one would, no antiracist at least.
I can fully understand why people go on the Press TV shows, to provide a counter for the stream of anti-Jewish racism found at Press TV.
And if I was being charitable could even imagine why George Galloway does it, for the money and the publicity.
However, I can’t understand why anyone who isn’t a bigot, a would-be BNP supporter, a Jew hater or Jew baiter, etc would consider it a legitimate news outlet, unless they were really stupid.
I assume that prolonged exposure to Press TV indoctrinates people and desensitises them to anti-Jewish racism and the presence of neo-Nazis.
Presumably, if you consciously watched Press TV for any long period, willingly and out of choice then you might eventually ignore Ahmadinejad’s racism…
Hmm.
Except that many Jewish anti-Zionists appear there too. These are of course ‘self-loathing’ or ‘self-hating’ Jews, are they not (in your racist philosophy)? Except that loads of shows aren’t even remotely about the ME. Except that the BNP and the EDL now openly support Israel, a logically internally consistent choice, of course.
Your definition of anti-Jewish racism is so broad you could fit a large black hole into it. In the mean time you support one of the most racist an oppressive regimes in the ME: Zionism.
You read too much of the Brown Sauce, Sir.
Hmm.
Very neat little summary of modern day Zionism here by Max Ajl. Excellent.
“Except that the BNP and the EDL now openly support Israel, a logically internally consistent choice, of course.”
Yes, Gert, and Gamil who praised the slaughter of innocents in Moscow worships you!
Richard:
Support for Zionism from some notoriously antisemitic sides, e.g. John Hagee’s numpties, would only be mildly embarrassing if prominent pro-Israel groups like AIPAC didn’t actually actively endorse and embrace such people and their idiotic following.
“Except that the BNP and the EDL now openly support Israel, a logically internally consistent choice, of course.”
Now let’s examine this proposition, that supposedly the BNP and the EDL support Israel, and by extension Israelis, and further that they support Jews.
That is essentially the argument which is being put forward. I have heard it once or twice before, only advanced by “Anti-Zionists”.
I have never heard anyone, seriously suggest, that the BNP or the EDL truly support Israel, but it bears examination, if only to understand why such an argument is advanced.
Firstly, we have to say, what do we know about the EDL and their leadership?
Well, according to the founder of the EDL it has been taken over by neo-Nazis, and why it might be true that not every single person in the EDL is a card-carrying neo-Nazi, the leadership are, along with a sizeable percentage of the membership, as the evidence indicates. That’s excluding those members of the EDL who are apolitical football hooligans, thugs and just plain sociopaths.
As we know, in reality the leadership of such organisations decide its policies, and so it is with EDL.
So we are meant to believe, that a bunch of neo-Nazis actually support Israel, the Jewish state?
Just stop there and think for a moment.
Yes that was right, the EDL’s neo-Nazi leadership apparently, according to the above argument, supports Israel.
That would seem plausible, ONLY if we were to ignore history, politics and all that we know about neo-Nazis and fascism.
Because for neo-Nazis to support a Jewish state goes against their fundamental beliefs.
These people are Hitler loving, Jew hating, genocidal antisemites, yet we are meant to believe by the words of some “Anti-Zionists” that the EDL truly support Israel, Israelis and by extension Jews.
That seems as convincing as these neo-Nazis saying “OK, we’ve given up supporting Hitler and now we’re really into reggae and we love all Jamaicans” or something similar.
Utter tosh. Unbelievable baloney.
The above applies to the BNP leadership as well, as most of them have been, are, or so close it doesn’t matter, neo-Nazis at one point in time.
But words won’t convince anyone, let’s have a look at one of Nick Griffin’s bodyguards, Mick Holmes, and I hope that people will make an effort to read his tattoos and see who he admires, Adolf Hitler.
So intellectually this argument is nonsense because neo-Nazis hate Jews, not in a moderate way, not as an aside, Jew hatred is integral to the ideological beliefs of neo-Nazis.
Therefore, to believe that they genuinely support Israel, Israelis and Jews is to ignore their beliefs, misunderstand fascism and forget history.
A far more plausible answer is that these neofascists in the BNP and the EDL are lying. After all that is what neofascists and their predecessors do.
Thus, to advance this argument, sincerely, must mean that its proponents either:
1) hate Israel more than they supposedly hate the BNP/the EDL
2) or they accept the word of neofascists as being genuine.
If the latter, then they are either political imbeciles who shouldn’t be let out of their padded cells, or they are pro-fascist in their sympathies.
Whatever the reasoning behind this argument it seems incredibly silly that anyone who is rational would choose to advance it, genuinely, since it is far more likely that the BNP and EDL are lying for their own purposes, as you would expect them to do.
I suppose that if you consciously believe the lies of fascists (the BNP or the EDL) and by extension aid them, then you have only yourselves to blame if people treat you like a cretin, or as a pro-fascist idiot.
Doesn’t the latter seem to sum up Gert? I can’t decide.
Modernityblog’s smear tactics are very clear of course. First he (the smearer) establishes that X. is a viewer of Press TV (viewer can in this context mean all kinds of things, of course). He then ‘subtly’ starts replacing ‘viewer’ with more loaded terms; ‘admirer’ for instance, a term the viewer never used of course. Next, crank it up a gear and start talking about ‘indoctrination’ (never mind that the smearer’s own position of Press TV and Iran are doctrinaire and that the viewer is old and ugly enough to make up his mind re. worldly matters).
And hoopla! The image of a Press TV obsessed and indoctrinated crank has been created. Said smearer has perfected his technique for many years and will not hesitate to use it against anyone.
Undoubtedly will now follow a large number of links, designed to show just how controversial Press TV really is, deliberately omitting the large number of controversies surrounding other news networks, be they the BBC, Fox or CNN.
What’s more, smearer’s intent is to create an illusion: that the viewer relies only or mainly on Press TV (or whatever).
This is how things work in Modernityblog’s world of smearing: admission of watching Press TV is to be ruthlessly exploited and from a mole heap a mountain is to be erected.
Modders:
I’m out of time now but already you start from the wrong premise:
The EDL and the BNP support Israel and Zionism (but NOT Jews), PRECISELY because they are antisemites: ‘Juden Raus’, ‘Juden Nach Israel, bitte’, in a nutshell. The Nazis weren’t against the creation of Israel either. Ask Alderman.
Will continue tomorrow.
I think that anyone who advances this argument, is either politically and historically illiterate or a pro fascist sympathiser, because it very clear that the BNP and EDL are lying.
Clear to anyone who knows anything about fascism and neo-Nazis, but I am not terribly surprised that a “Anti-Zionist” advances this feeble notion, that the BNP would support a Jewish state.
It is utter nonsense.
“Yes, Gert, and Gamil who praised the slaughter of innocents in Moscow worships you!”-
I am not deny that I “praised the slaughter of infidels in Moscow” and I shall apologize now if I made someone angry.
However, you must to also be tolearnt to my religion. Many Arabs are celebrating the Christmas and Holocaust’s Day because we are respecting what you are writing in your Bibles. So you should know that the holy Koran has said:
“fight and slay the pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem.”
– And you can respect them to.
Also if I am sometimes making mistakes, and my English is not like the queens it is because of the Israeli occupation of Palestine and our bad schools because of them.
But when you say that I worships Gert, this is a greatest lie because I only worships Allah. Glory be to him; praises be to Allah; there is no god but Allah; and Allah is large.
Best wishes to Richard and to the very rude Gert I say:
“All the best and May the fleas of a thousand camels lodge in you armpit, and may your wife’s feet be smelly when they are copulating!”
“The EDL and the BNP support Israel and Zionism (but NOT Jews),”
Both the far right and far left support neither Jews nor Zionism. The only Jews the far left supports are the non-nationalistic ones which is a tiny minority. It is highly disingenuous for the hard-left to say it supports Jews per se when it only supports a specific type of Jew.
Modders:
Carrying in on from 8:10 pm:
Boy, have you got yourself into a logical pickle there!
Here, it’s the typical conflation of Zionism, Israelis and Jewry that gets you into trouble: a bunch of Jew-haters (and not just Jew-haters: all ‘foreign’ elements are considered undesirable by these fascists) support Zionism in the same way high ranking Nazis did and in Modders’ lazy eye this transforms into ‘support for Jews’. But it’s not about support for Jews.
If you’re a Jew-hater that wants all Jews (and other undesirables) gone, then what’s more logical that too support a state that proclaims to want to receive all of them?
The EDL and the BNP are antisemitic supporters of Zionism and Israel.
This too is deeply fallacious and relies on the lazy statement ‘all neofascists and their predecessors lie’.
Wrong. They tell lies but they believe these to be the truth.
Similarly, do Creationists (e.g.) lie? They clearly believe in literal scripture, even though to me that is an untruth.
Now let’s look for a minute at the strange case of Paul Ray, founding father of the EDL. Or Lionheart as he likes to call himself (Chickenheart!). Ray is more than simply an antisemitic supporter of Zionism: he boasts among other exploits to have infiltrated the ISM (I believe he has some photos on his blog to that effect).
Ray really sees himself as a Zionist but in his case that may well be a misguided case of ‘the enemies [Zionists] of my enemies [Muslims] are my friends’ and thus a certain expression of Muslim baiting too.
In the case of the BNP and the EDL that effect also plays: these are antisemitic groups that support Zionism and conveniently both groups are Muslim baiters too.
So great is Modders’ love for Zionism that anyone who advances a clear argument as to why some neo-fascists support Zionism that the proponent of said argument needs again to be smeared, as per usual from the smear merchant who simply doesn’t know when to stop…
Richard:
You claim that the EDL/BNP don’t support Jews (see above) and I am saying that neither does the hard-left.
The hard- left has always been vile towards Jews, see Lenin/Stalin and the USSR’s refusal to let Jews out, and there is no difference now.
The political ideology has never changed. Instead of the focus being on Jews it is now on “Zionist” Jews.
The hard-left hates Zionist Jews, which is the vast majority of Jews, as much as the BNP/EDL hates Jews per se.
And the hard-left actively campaigns against Zionism, which is simply the Jewish right to self-determination. But the hard-left does not campaign against other nationalisms like American, British, Australian.
Whereas most Jews recognise a nationalist stream within their Judaism the hard-left fails to allow them that right.
Therefore, for the hard-left the Jews do not have equal rights, only rights that the hard-left, in its ignorance, wishes to humbly allow the Jews.
There is the foul stench of hypocricy in the air.
Anti-Zionism isn’t about ‘supporting this kind of Jews or that kind of Jews’: it calls on anyone of conscience to try stop what Zionism is doing to Palestine and frankly, to itself. Supporters from all colours, creeds, religions etc etc are welcome as long as they don’t come from a racist angle.
Gert, the hard-left actively campaigns against Jewish nationalism while not doing so against all other nationalisms. That is as racist as EDL/BNP. There is no daylight between EDL/BNP and the hard-left.
This argument is not untypical of “Anti-Zionists”, as it is more of a stream of consciousness rant against Israel and Israelis, than any logical progression thru the arguments.
Three points, briefly:
1. Most obviously it takes what the BNP and EDL say at face value.
It accepts that these neofascists are being honest.
2. However, intrinsic to the neo-Nazi belief is the protocols of the Elders of Zion, and how supposedly “Jews control or manipulate the world from a powerbase” and a lot follows from that.
Neo-Nazis rant on about Jewish power ad nauseam, they are afraid of it. Neo-Nazis are not likely, to honestly want the existence of a Jewish state, where for them that powerbase would be concentrated.
On the contrary, they want to destroy Jews, so wouldn’t naturally want concentration of any power that would aid Jews, as the State of Israel does.
3. By accepting what the BNP and EDL say on this topic, “Anti-Zionists” are ascribing honesty to neo-fascists, whose politics is based completely on deceit, genocidal racism and lying.
The BNP leadership and EDL have a long history of documented lying, about their own views, what they truly believe and what they say to others.
So it is naïve in the extreme to take the BNP’s or the EDL’s word on this topic as being above-board and sincere.
In fact, what happens by articulating these set of arguments: ‘that in their view that the BNP/EDL’s views are genuine’ is that the “Anti-Zionists” are really becoming propagandists for those neofascists in the BNP and EDL.
Modders, they aren’t necessarily “propagandists for those neofascists in the BNP and EDL”, they are virtually one and the same!
In fairness, Richard, I am not sure that all “anti-Zionists” are as extreme as Gert is.
I would hope that once they have familiarised themselves with the ideology of neo-Nazis that they would see the above points…..
Modders:
Next you’ll tell me how many angels fit on a pin head.
Go tell it to the EDL and the BNP when they’re waving their Israeli flags and their ‘we support Israel!’ banners.
Ultra Nationalists supporting Ultra Nationalists, it’s really not hard to understand. You belletrist efforts are highly amusing, if even if simply deflective and merely quasi-intellectual. I don’t think you know all that much about ‘Zionism’ or anti-Zionism.
Richard:
You’re a hopeless reductionist.
For one, the European Left supported Israel to the hilt up to about the early 1970s. My own family did. Others on the left were more ideologically driven: Israel was supposed to become another agrarian Socialist utopia. Many early Zionists were committed Marxists, including at first also Ben Gurion.
The fight at trying to reduce/smear the Left’s role in fighting fascism has begun about a decade ago. This, as always starts with smear campaigns originating from the US Far Right (see for instance Jonah Goldberg’s smear book ‘Liberal Fascism’) and when it drizzles over there… the Eustonite ‘Left’ then picks up on it.
Recently Engage produces also such a smear piece along the lines of ‘sure, the Left fought antisemitism but there heart wasn’t really into it’. It nearly made me fall off my chair.
The Left continues to fight injustices and it sees one in Palestine, a huge one. When all is said and done, eventually Israel will thank the world for being forced off its self-destructive path.
Gert
I’d like your answer to a couple of hypothetical questions.
Assume that Israel closed down her army, destroyed all her weapons and had no support political or otherwise from any external source.
How do you believe our Arab neighbours would act?
Now assume the other way around i.e that it is our neighbours that become vulnerable.
How do you think Israel would act?
As regards the USSR and their brand of ‘Communism’, nobody on the Hard Left that I know supports that. The USSR was by all intents and purposes a repressive, ‘conservative’ bureaucracy, from about Stalin and onwards. Not my cup of tea AT ALL.
Michael:
This is not a hypothetical question, it’s a giant straw man argument.
NOBODY IS EXPECTING THAT OF ISRAEL. NOBODY. LEAST OF ALL ME.
Come back when you’ve got something relevant to say. Yours is a curveball that landed miles outside the field. ALL countries are entitled to defenses.
Gert
Sadly you once again miss the point.
You also neglected to answer the question
Girtie,
Goldman makes an interesting point.
If Israel recognizes the existence of a Palestinian people or makes peace with Jordan, this is not because she couldn’t wipe out the former or defeat the latter.
The Arabs, on the other hand, and here I’m not referring to your friend Gamil, but the “moderate” ones who are prepared to recognize Israel etc because they have tried many times to destroy us and failed each time. His point was that they’d destroy us if they could. We could do whatever we want to, but choose not to.
By the way, it’s nice to receive advice about national defense from a gentleman of Belgian descent. I believe that your last war the Belgian armed forces lasted a little more than a fortnight. By way of comparison the unarmed Jewish wretches of the Warsaw Ghetto fought the same enemy and survived for about four months.
As regards to Goldman’s curved ball, I would ask you as to your source of information. We have heard no complaints from his esteemed wife who ought to have more hands on dealings with it than a Belgian anti-Semite who spends all day blogging.
Somebody’s taking the piss out of Gamil!
Hey,
That is not me. This is a treacheros Zionist! First they steel my country and now they steel my name.
“Lie to a liar, for lies are his coin; Steal from a thief, for that is easy; lay a trap for a trickster and catch him at first attempt, but beware of an honest man”
Michael:
The impostor here is of course Mike Melchett who seems to believe calling someone from another country a ‘paedophile’ is somehow relevant or even funny. From personal experience I know that some Englishmen do have serious trouble with what one could call ‘toilet humour’. This kind of gentleman [sic] can spontaneously burst into laughter at the thought of the word ‘bum. Or even ‘behind’. ‘Anally retentive’ some shrinks would call it, I believe.
I don’t think Mike’s got all his marbles, to be honest.
melchett mike has just got home from watching Tottenham v Arsenal in the pub, you Belgian cunt!
Gert
Instead of making wild accusations, why don’t you answer my question?
Mike,
Maybe you think that you are offending Gertie, but you’re giving a very bad name to the female primary sexual organ. Anyway, Gert for his part seems much more taken by buttocks than by any by the aforementioned. I believe there is a term for such individuals – sadly, it eludes me.
Either way, it seems that a crack has been found in our Gamil’s best mate’s armor. His Belgian countrymen might even say that he has been caught:
“met de billen bloot”
Yeh, there’s a song about them . . .
“A packet of sweets and a cheeky smile,
______ is a fucking paedophile.”
I for one have had enough.
It deeply offends my British heritage that the baddie is outnumbered,so from now on I’m on Gert’s side.
I will be using the pseudonym “Gerties Mate”
Don’t worry Gert my friend.
You me and our mate Gemil can deal with the Zionist filth!
Michael:
On the latter: you’re question is in essence unanswerable because no one is required to disarm. It’s therefore simply not a useful question. And I’m not under obligation to answer ANY question, this is not an interrogation room.
On the former: ‘wild accusations’, Sir? Have you even read half the filth Belchin’ Melchett has been leveling at me? He just can’t leave the excessive sexual references alone. Now it appears Daniel feels the need to join in. This passes for ‘debate’ in some circles of Zion?
The belcher can write what he wants: this has his fingers all over it…
Before you start crying to everyone about your treatment here, Gestapo Gert, why not take another look at what you wrote about me on your blog (just because I dared to ask you about your overwhelming obsession with Israel and Zionists): http://developing-your-web-presence.blogspot.com/2010/03/hating-jews-racist-or-merely-human.html#links
You should know me better by now, Gestapo – I don’t need to hide behind pseudonyms to call you what you clearly are, i.e., an absolute cunt.
And, on my next visit to Yorkshire (I am a regular in Harrogate), I might just use the address I obtained from Companies House to see if you look like an absolute cunt, too.
Mike Melchett:
I believe that your anti-French screed is deeply racist. At ‘best’ it could be described as racist ‘humour’ and this is what my spoof of your piece clearly shows. I’ve offered to take the whole thing down if you lead by example and scrap yours. You can keep the piece you’ve dedicated to me, including the deeply racist/sexual slant on ‘Belgium’s paedophilia’ because it shows you for who you are.
I know with almost 100 % certainty that you tried to call me by phone shortly after we ‘met’. I happened to be out but my wife was highly bemused by receiving a call from someone whose (clearly male) voice she didn’t recognise and who asked for “Gert from Bridlington” (how many people call for ‘somebody’ from ‘somewhere’???). I’m not sure what you want to achieve by calling me on the phone when nowhere on my blog is listed either my full name or my phone number (but I know how you obtained both). I do not wish to be called by you.
Now you are actually threatening to meet me. Mike, I suggest you calm down at this point. I have no desire whatsoever to meet you and have the right to decline.
Try and think about this: in my many years of blogging I don’t recall once being threatened with ‘being met’. Not one opponent has gone remotely as far as calling Company House to find my actual address. Please reconsider: making this so personal as you plan to do is simply not worth it and no good can come from it.
My email address is in my profile. Direct some hate mail to me if you like but please desist from doing things you may later seriously regret.
Please also note that hostilities between us were squarely started by you. Your person and your blog are of no interest to me whatsoever.
A spoof of Gamil. Must have been melchy.
A phone call from a male. Must have been melchy.
The Dubai assassination. Must have been melchy.
Talk about “marbles”!
I wouldn’t dream of threatening anyone, my friend, but – if you are as obsessed with me as you seem – why not meet for an ice cream and some sandcastles?
Gert
“On the latter: you’re question is in essence unanswerable because no one is required to disarm. It’s therefore simply not a useful question. And I’m not under obligation to answer ANY question, this is not an interrogation room”
It’s actually easily answerable.
The problem you obviously have is that the only true answer doesn’t fit in with your expansionist ideas about Israel or your claim that creating an Arab state in the areas not occupied by Israel before 1967 will solve the problem.
You are obviously not under any obligation to answer, however your refusal to do so speaks volumes.
If Goldman is on Gerty’s side, nobody should talk to him. Serve him Right.
I think the inability of some “Anti-Zionists” to answer even the most elementary question highlights a more broader problem with the attitude:
their inability to reason.
That deficit is compounded by their wishful thinking, prejudices and petty obsessions (as was seen above).
Add to that a fairly obvious contempt for evidence based reasoning and you better understand why some “Anti-Zionists” argue as they do…
Mike:
I’m not interested in you. I’ve no interest in meeting you. Thanks for the offer.
Modders:
You are one of the most hypocritical bloggers I’ve come across in a long time. You’re now siding with people who use deeply racist and sexual taunts.
Gert, the hard-left sides with hardcore anti-semites, racists, misogynists and homophobes.
Michael:
The only way to consider what Israel is doing in the WB/W.J’sem as not expansionist is to believe Israel has a Divine Mandate. That she has the RIGHT to do this. Do you believe that?
As regards the Palestinians, sadly for you they’re simply not going to magically (or divinely) disappear.
Richard:
You’re a ner ner, nener ner kind of guy. Real puerile.
Ooop… E.J’sem, of course…
Gert
You answer my questions and I’ll answer yours
I think it is evident that for some, “anti-Zionism” is merely one expression of some deep-seated psychological problem.
Gert’s singular inability to read and understand what I write suggest to me that he has deeper issue.
I won’t mock the obviously afflicted, so will bow out of these exchanges and hope that Gert seeks some help elsewhere in the real world for his problems, the nonpolitical ones…
Shit! I think melchy’s in my house!! Help!!!
Michael:
That’s petty. Dialogue doesn’t require all questions being answered. I’ve already had a bad experience with horse trading on this thread. Your question isn’t realistic: what you describe hasn’t got a cat in hell’s chance of actually occurring. Better to stay within the realm of the possible.
Modders:
What’s with not linking up your blog here? Afraid some of the racists here will come wafting over?
… is what I assume you believe is the correct answer. In the real world it just doesn’t work like that. In the real world, real countries keep each other in check by means of mutual defense/mutual deterrence.
Gamil
I wish to apologize on behalf of myself, Gertie and anyone else who may have upset him. That was not our intention and truthfully, nobody really seems to know who impersonated him. I can assure him that the long-winded and hawkish and frankly boring posting sounded nothing like the Mike that I know and Gert loves.
Both Gert and I would like to ask Gamil if he has any message for the people of Israel as we approach Independence Day. This is not a wind up, but we’d like really like to hear from him.
Regards,
Daniel
Gert,
How could you join forces with the likes of Jamil and Goldman? What do you honestly know about your new bed-fellows. Be careful, you are a good man and they are nothing but rogues.
Resh
Modders:
A bit more verbal diarrhea from Mr Semitophilic.
Still maintain I’m stalking you, Modders? As you maintained at Osler’s? How much time have spent here now, basically calling an opponent ‘stupid’, ‘mentally ill’ and such like. You basically did the same with Mark Elf too.
In the Soviet Union apparatchiks like you had entire swathes of people sectioned under some ‘mental health act’. You terrible, terrible little man. Now you’re siding with some of the worst abusers I’ve ever come across, basically because they’re Jewish, all the while hiding your blog…
The worst bloggers I’ve ever come across are ‘The Sentinel’, ‘Belchin’ Melchett’ and you. All opponents. You’re in good company.
Whoever is impersonating who here: don’t you think it’s gone on long enough? As they say: ‘that joke isn’t funny anymore’…
Gert,
“Still maintain I’m stalking you, Modders? As you maintained at Osler’s?”
Again, you come out with stream of consciousness nonsense, I was probably joking. I often joke.
You don’t understand this, but to have an exchange of views with someone you need common ground.
There is no common ground between us:
1) you don’t understand what I write
2) you’re not interested in what I write
3) you don’t engage with what I write
Thus, if you can’t be bothered to make the effort then why should I?
Do you understand that? common ground? there is none between us.
You don’t have anything to say, and what you do say is at a tangent with reality.
You don’t understand politics, as is evident from your comment above concerning the USSR.
You have nothing to contribute to except some personality disorder, which is not of interest to me. You should seek help.
[previous comment, re-posted]
Gert,
Yet again you don’t understand.
Numerous times on this particular thread you try to sum up my views, in each case you’ve been wrong.
Again, you make an assumption of my views and you are always wrong.
The reason for that is that you don’t ask questions, you make lazy assumptions.
Given the rigidity of your thinking you come to the wrong conclusion.
Let me state is clearly so you don’t understand:
I believe you have mental health problems, I believe that being an “Anti-Zionist” is some outlet for you.
Obviously, you have many frustrations in your life and clearly see attacking would you perceive to be “Zionism” is a vehicle for those frustrations.
You are incapable of logical reasoning, you don’t ask questions, you can’t answer them and you are incredibly ill informed.
Thus, any exchange of views with you is fruitless because:
1) you don’t understand what people are saying
2) you misinterpret the words of others
3) you draw the wrong conclusions
4) you don’t understand the subject matter
Is that clear enough for you? Or do I need to explain it again?
I’m not terribly interested in conversing with ignoramuses, the Far Right or the mentally afflicted, such as yourself.
And I don’t say that in an insulting way, I just don’t find it productive and I wish you would seek help elsewhere.
But in the future if you wish to know what someone actually means then you could start by saying “……is that what you meant?” rather than putting your own clumsy, pedestrian and invariably wrong interpretation on the words of others.
Modders:
What I understand is that your semitophilia is on a par with Julie Burchill’s and Chas Newkey-Burden’s. You just don’t shout it off the rooftops as much. You maintain some decorum. You’re mildly more discreet.
When ugly, sexual, sexist racist abuse is directed at an opponent you say nothing, as long as the abuser happens to be Jewish. You’re a hypocrite.
You didn’t just claim I was stalking you, you also urged David Osler to ignore me.
You’ve also claimed I probably beat up some BNPers (I happen to be strictly non-violent).
You joke a lot? But you’re not funny…
Don’t want to talk (trust me, neither do I)? Then leave. ‘Bow out’. Go on, you can do it.
Gert,
“You …claim….”
So what ? Thankfully I don’t know you.
So if you’re rational, then what I claim would be of no importance to you…
Which brings me back to my previous conclusion.
PS: If you wish to play the victim and seek sympathy from others then you shouldn’t appear so irrational, insulting and downright ignorant on these topics.
I am frankly disinterested in what people say or shouted you… you are your own worst enemy…so please don’t go looking for sympathy from me.
From your arguments here I consider you to be a pro- fascist idiot and as such unworthy of any support.
Is that clear enough? Do you get the message?
Modders, the hard-left is convinced, quite incredibly, that there is nothing fascist about it. However, it is on a par with the fascists in the BNP, if not worse, but please don’t expect it to admit it.
Oh my God! His ‘tentacle’ of international Jewish finance is inside my missus!!
“His ‘tentacle’ of international Jewish finance is inside my missus” – Gert
First time anything of such a length has been there?
I am of course, with great subtlety and finesse, referring to the well-documented, partially true stereotype that gentlemen of Belgian descent have short Willy Wonkers.
Before you accuse me of Antibelgianism, I’ll say two things:
1. The “The BELGIAN ANTI DEFAMATION INSTITUTE” concedes the point.
http://www.goodnewsforliberaldemocracy.org/belgianantidefamationinstitute/
2. Anyone calling himself Gestapo Gert should be careful before calling others names.
The new Axis of Gert-Goldman-Gamil (henceforth The Three Gs) is indeed terrifying in its evil reminding many older readers of Japan, Germany, Italy. Clearly Goldman is Italy (bad English) and the inscrutable Gamil is Japan.
Need I say more?
Richard,
I remain unconvinced that Gert is any form of Leftie, as he argues nothing positive.
He knows next to nothing about the Left (he couldn’t tell the difference between Lenin and Lennon), he is completely unfamiliar with neo-Nazi ideologies and has no grasp of antiracism.
Gert’s style of argumentation (make assertions, rant, make no reference to arguments and logic, etc) is indicative of a Far Right mentality.
His use of certain language (Zios, etc) further confirms that….
But equally he could simply be just deranged and chronically obsessive, I am not a psychiatrist so I can’t comment 🙂
modernityblog,
“….equally he could simply be just deranged and chronically obsessive, I am not a psychiatrist so I can’t comment” – Sounds like someone is commentating and it ain’t old Jamil.
Why do we feel the need to label people that we disagree with “deranged” “Gestapo” etc.
Do we honestly believe that as a nation we are so perfect that in order for Gert to be an anti-Semite he has to be mentally ill?
Why should we assume that Gert’s antisemitism is in any way linked to a chemical imbalance, Mein Kampf or his little Belgian “Willy Wonker”?
Couldn’t it just be that he doesn’t like us? Isn’t that enough?
Why didn’t Gert mention that his wife had Jewish in her? That would have explained everything.
And I trust that the Willy Wonka analogy is not going to be followed up with some crude Settler reference to children’s “chocolate boxes”.
Hey Modders!
‘Ere a minute, son! On Presz TV’z ‘The Autograph’ they had Arnaud de Borchgrave on last night: the editor in chief of The Washington Times. Of course the stooopid scab hasn’t heard of Lady Ratatouille or Herr Sodhimstrom! Fancy that: the ignoramus being a Big Cheese at TWT and you… ‘editor’ at… erm… Modernity Blog!
Soon coming to a theatre near you: ‘Modders-You-Plonker! watch…
A final thought before Shabbat.
As Gert has been the unfortunate victim of clever imposters impersonating him, I’d like to make a suggestion.
Maybe Gert could give us a sign that it’s the real him, a few words in Flemish or something like that.
Shabbat shalom to Richard, Michael, Gamil, Mike, Gert, Resh, Gerty’s Mate, modernityblog and anyone else I may have forgotten.
Shabbat shalom!
Gert
“The only way to consider what Israel is doing in the WB/W.J’sem as not expansionist is to believe Israel has a Divine Mandate. ”
So by your thinking if Israel builds in its capital city it’s being expansionist!
A message to all you Zionist pigs.
Your cause is lost.Me and Gert are gonna take care of every last one of you.
Furthermore the rumours concerning Gert have been vastly exaggerated.
Michael:
Did you see I corrected W.J’sem to E.J’sem?
Israel wants Jerusalem to be its capital? Hunky dory with me. But E.J’sem is Occupied territory. Israel shouldn’t even be building there.
Where I wrote “W.J’sem ” that was a typo. I corrected it immediately.
I was refering to East West North and South.
How do you define “Occupied Territory”?
Sorry that was meant to be the other me not your mate.
Goldman!
How could you support that rogue Gertie?
Have you ever been to his blog? Have you ever read his postings?
Has anybody?
I too have had just about enough of the way that Gert is being bullied on this blog just because he’s an extremist antizionist!
From now on I’m on his side too, so it’s Gert, Jamil, Gerty’s Mate and I. We may not agree about everything, but we believe that we can provide a powerful answer to the likes of the mean Mike, the Dastardly Daniel and the made modernityblog.
It is all for one and one for all and if anyone comments on Gert’s little Belgian “Willy Wonker” we will have witty come backs. Ellis Feigenbaum has offered to help out if the need arises.
The only problem is that Gerty himself has disappeared.
Richard,
I have no objection to you editing my posting and removing the term “antisemite, but surely Gert is either “an extreme anti-Zionist” or “an anti-Zionist extremist”. I have no idea of what an extremist antizionist might be, have you?
Hag Sameach
Resh, Gert, Jamil and Gerty’s Mate