Kaufman calls for boycott of Israel. Andy Slaughter on his left and Jeremy Corbyn (scratching).
There were more surreal ongoings at Parliament on Monday night when the Palestinian Return Centre held a seminar on the Palestinian refugees, which was attended by four Labour MPs.
I was banned from filming and photographing by the organisers eventhough there were two camera crews in the room, one from Lebanon, and about 10 other people in the audience filming or taking photos.
Then at the end of the event Jonathan Hoffman and I were met by four police officers. Jonathan was taken aside by an officer and told that during the meeting he had said that the MPs were supporting terrorism by allowing terrorist supporters into Parliament. We were then given a police escort out of Parliament.
Jonathan never said anything of the sort. He only spoke during the Q&A when called upon by Gerald Kaufman MP and then only to remind Jeremy Corbyn MP that Israel had frozen settlement building to allow negotiations to resume but that the Palestinians never took Israel up on the offer.
It was Kaufman who raised the issue of terrorism. He said that every week The Jewish Chronicle sends him a complimentary issue and that this week he noticed the headline “Hamas gets a hearing in House of Commons”.
The JC article goes on to describe how Ismail Haniyeh was the guest speaker at PRC’s annual conference in 2009.
Jokingly, Kaufman asked if anyone in the room was from Hamas at which, to loud applause, a young woman raised an arm.
The meeting had started with Kaufman acknowledging the dreadful deprivations suffered by the Palestinian refugees in Lebanon. He said that the refugee camps had no electricity or clean water and that sewage ran down the middle of the streets.
But, he said, despite these conditions he was moved that the main thing on the minds of the refugees was the “right of return”. He spoke of a Palestinian woman with an asthmatic baby and no medication who only wanted to discuss the “right of return”.
Mohammed Al Hamid, Chair of PRC Board of Trustees, said that the “seven million Palestinian refugees shared their indignities with another 44 million refugees worldwide”. He said refugees wanting to return home was a basic urge and that “we should defend this cause”.
Dr Arafat Shoukri, Director of the Council for European Palestinian Relations, said the Palestinians have no political or civil rights in Lebanon and that they are banned from working in 70 professions there.
He said that the right of return would not lead to the destruction of Israel because the Palestinians having the right is different from them actually exercising it. He thinks the Palestinians should be granted the right and it is up to them whether to exercise it.
He also said Lebanon thinks it is protecting the right of return by keeping the Palestinians in such oppressive conditions.
Dr. Tariq Tahboob, of the Association of Palestinian Doctors in Europe, said that the Palestinians are a very proud people with a 93% literacy rate. He said “Moses, the great prophet of Muslims, Christians and Jews said to Pharaoh ‘let my people go'”. Tahboob then repeated “let my people go”.
Tahboob also said Israel was created on Palestine in 1948 and he called for a two state solution with east Jerusalem as Palestine’s capital and for the right of return to be kept in place.
Andrew Love MP also acknowledged the lack of employment opportunities for Palestinians in Lebanon and how Lebanon imports labour from Syria and Egypt.
Love said that when the Palestinian refugees arrived in Lebanon only the Christian Palestinians were granted Lebanese citizenship by the Phalange government. Now, he said, if a Lebanese woman has a baby with a Palestinian man she will hide his name so the baby will become Lebanese.
Quite unbelievably, despite the obvious suffering of the Palestinians in Lebanon Gerald Kaufman MP and Jeremy Corbyn MP went on to call for a boycott of Israel.
Corbyn asked “Why are we trading normally with Israel?” He said that the Palestinians in exile were desperate to return home and that the conditions of the Palestinians in Gaza was morally wrong and a danger to the rest of the world.
Andy Slaughter MP, Labour’s shadow justice minister, said that the issue of the right of return had been sidelined as there have been so many injustices and abuses and that the injustices since 1948 are not in the past but in the present.
During the Q&A I was allowed to ask the panelists whether they felt ashamed that, by contributing to this false hope of “returning” to Israel, they have helped to sentence the Palestinians to lives of hell in Lebanon. I didn’t get a constructive response.
And after that Jonathan and I had our appointment with the police.
(Here is an interesting update to the talk from Harry’s Place.)
RichardMillett's Blog 
Richard
Why do I think that you and Jonathan are discriminated against?
This surely can’t be?
Not in the UK, the country that saved me from a life under the Nazis!
Was anybody else interrogated by police?
Britain didn’t fight the Nazis because they wanted to save the Jews. For some elements in our society, you could say it was in spite of Hitler’s war against the Jews that Britain took on the Nazis.
Silke it’s a fairly tale. Surely you from the land of the brothers Grimm can recognise a fairly tale when you see on.
I don’t understand the connection between fairly and the Brothers Grimm. Maybe if you’d be gracious enough to explain the meaning of “fairly” in the context, if possible without referring to German philosophers which as a rule I don’t care for.
He means Richard described the events fairly, in contrast to the bizarre imaginations of the Brothers Grim (Kaufmann and Corbyn).
Ha ha that was a screw up wasn’t it. I did of course mean fairy tale. Well done Callen for taking maximum advantage
ah yes? and that’s why you did it twice in a two liner?
and thanks to Callen for helping German me for once to understand rich’s mumblings correctly.
Having read some of the comments in the JC (online), at the age of 80, I despair there are so many Jewish supporters of the obscene Kaufman and his anti-Israel rhetoric. If I lived in London and not North Wales, I would be by Richard’s side at every meeting of this hatefest mob. Without men with guts,like Richard, this scum, masquerading as democratic, peace loving members of society would have no opposition.
Brian I assume you have been reading the same JC stuff as me. I didn’t see anything supportive of Kaufmann et al. Help me out ?
Bravo Mr. Lux!
And these MP’s have a say in how our country is run. OMG no wonder we are in such a mess. It seems to me that they are in the House as nobody else would give them a day job! I guess the fairy is the pantomime the House has become with the likes of these guys keeping the seats hot.
It’s a pitynRichard that the only photo you managed to take has to defile your blog with the face of Kaufman.
Silk what does Kaufman mean? Must be something like bigot, or dragon.
Kaufman = merchant or trader. Fits the Pratt who is happy to sell his people down the river!
Sharon
The literal translation of Kaufmann is Buy-Man and it is an umbrella-term for a merchant, a trader would mostly translate as a Händler.
Being a Kaufmann used to be something highly respectable from the neighbourhood food shop on upwards to the big overseas merchants. “Die Buddenbrooks” is a novel about Kaufleute = literally Buy-People i.e. plural of Kaufmann.
When the rot set in I don’t know but these days fast profit seems to be valued higher than uprightness and dependability.
Richard
Who banned you from filming, did they have the authority to do so, did they do this in writing and explain why you were being singled out? Do you have grounds for a complaint?
Also, do you have the names / ID numbers of the police who falsely accused Jonathan and do you / Jonathan plan to take any action on this?
The organisers. They gave no reasons but threatened to get the police in if i did. I didn’t want to risk a scene and be thrown out. The police tend to act first in Parliament and ask questions afterwards. The police aren’t too blame. They weren’t in the meeting and were only going on what someone had told them. I doubt I will take any action. Haven’t thought about it though really.
Richard
if it landed you in some police computer, you should make them take it out.
No matter how false an accusation is, once it is there a simpleton will come up with the nonsense of no smoke without fire.
Thanks for your concern, Silke, and yours Rich (not) but Jonathan, myself and others are used to these false accusations. No records were taken and no harm was done. It just proves what we are dealing with.
“Haven’t thought about it though really.”
Richard you need to think about it kwik. Israel’s very existence is at stake .
“Jonathan was taken aside by an officer and told that during the meeting he had said that the MPs were supporting terrorism by allowing terrorist supporters into Parliament.”
Even if he HAD said that, since when is it legal to arrest or remove people for telling the truth?
It puzzles me that you’re not living in Israel Richard. The best..maybe the only….way to support it, is to make aliya and live there.
Richard nails it with his parting question .
These people have no shame . They continue to lead the Palestinians down an eternal blind alley . They are theorists who are seemingly oblivious of the realities of their demands .
Do they seriously believe that Israel will accede to the RoR of millions of so called refugees with all that entails . The only way it could be achieved is through existential warfare on a hitherto unprecedented scale .
Since world war 2 millions of displaced people have settled in their adopted country . That includes 850,000 Jews who were expelled from their homes throughout the Arab world .
The Palestinians are mere pawns held hostage by a cynical leadership who have stolen hundreds of millions of dollars in aid and squandered more in armaments and terrorist activities . Why have the surrounding Arab states denied Palestinians basic human rights including the right to work .
Fact is Israel is a convenient scapegoat for all that is wrong in the Arab world .
The Palestinians will continue to live their lives in camps rather than declare independence and a new beginning as long as they heed the words people who less about Palestine and more about the dismantlement of Israel .
The Labour Mps present at this meeting are part of the problem and should be seen for what they are and what they represent .
Rock on 10 out of 10 for your reply Harvey
Firstly, there already is a two-state solution.
Israel and Jordan.
Perhaps someone wants a three/four/five-state solution.
We are coming up on the anniversary of the 7/7 attack on London transport, by British “asians”.
A 3-state solution is best. One for Jews, one for Muslims, and one for human beings who regard others as equal irrespective of their ethnicity, gender or religious beliefs, and who look upon chauvinism, exclusivism and racial and religious supremacism with horror.
and am I far off the truth when I guess that dear roger considers himself to be such a supreme being?
Science has proven again and again and again that a being like roger imagines it, doesn’t exist in real life.
Therefore I chose my friends amongst those who know about their shortcomings and thus control them in their dealings with me a lot better than those can ever hope to do who consider themselves to be flawless.
It is a lot more fun to spend an evening fighting (verbally) with an honest about himself male chauvinist than with his dreaming himself emancipated brother.
Life is too short to spend it with “perfect” people.
Thus spake the incorrigible philosemite in residence who brooks no words of truth or sense.
We would all like a utopian world in which nobody works but everybody flourishes in the absence of war. It’s a pity there aren’t more people like Roger to fill that gap. In the meantime I’d go along with the Jewish state that by and large lives by a code of ethics the rest of the world is light years behind.
Utopian b/s. Are you the editor of the Guardian?
You clearly don’t know me! I was merely commenting on Roger’s big ego at being the perfect person!
Roger appears to be obsessed with blood, so Roger I suggest you inform all your friends that we Jews DO murder a child non Jew and use their blood to make Matzo and whilst your at it you might as well confirm to that the Protocols are non fiction. Just what is your problem, did your Chader teacher give you too much Rashi to study?
So that excludes the religion of peace.
State 3 ..what to call it?……would be blissfully free of the derangement and fear mongering of organised religion and ethnocentricity. A place where miscegenation and inter-marriage is welcome and where assimilation and separatism are alien concepts as there would be nothing to assimilate to with no identity to lose. The first sign of racial or religious chauvinism, elitism or supremacism would mean immediate expulsion to one of the neighbouring states where that person would feel more at home. So Sharon, obviously Islam is strictly verboten, along with Judaism, in this division free state where people belong to each other and are fully subscribed members of the human race and not some crazed ideology of racial or religious self worship.
TGIAI
In this two state solution what are your plans for the Arabs currently living in what is now commonly called the west bank ?
All those who wish to live in “Palestine” can do so. It’s on the east bank of the Jordan River.
And the ones that want to stay on the land they were born on, and on which for the most part their families have lived for generations ? This will be just about all of them. What of them ?
TGIAI
I think it was Lieberman who said he didn’t like that kind of talk on the basis that there is a functioning peace with Jordania.
I think Lieberman got that one right.
rich asked:
“And the ones that want to stay on the land they were born on, and on which for the most part their families have lived for generations ? This will be just about all of them. What of them ?”
They can do as the immigrants to North America did.
The 800,000 Jews from Arab countries who fled the land they were born on need to be compensated too.
What are equal human beings?
Equality: where nobody is less than another because of his race, ethnicity or religion.
It’s all about hubris and chutzpah bro…and the fact that rabbinical Orthodox Judaism has cancelled out the rather nice thought that we are all equal in the eyes of God.
nice to learn that gender is not included in your list.
When it comes to Jews I am as little philo or phobo as I am with all the other members of my species (provided that females are human by your standards). I tend to “value” them one by one.
It’s ironic that a Palestinian spokesman should adopt the slogan, “Let my people go.” The irony is that were I to campaign to let the “Palestinian People” go, which I wouldn’t, I’d be called a racist or worse.
To the best of my knowledge none of them are being held here against their will, but if anyone knows of any who are, tell me and I’ll do all I can to let them go.
“Let the Palestinian People go!” – Tariq Tahboob or Meir Kahana
Of that I have no doubt
Rich,
“Israel’s very existence is at stake.”
Why do you think your existence is at stake? Who is threatening you?
Almani I was being sarcastic.
Rich, your (lack of) humour is obviously lost on some people.
Well, let’s see, there’s Iran, Iraq, Egypt, Syria, Libya, Saudi Arabia, the Gulf States, North Africa, Hizbollah, Hamas, Al Quieda and about a billion crack pot Islamic fanatics. Then there’s the rest of the world.
The Ashkenazi Jews, descendants of Slavic and Khazar gentile converts to Judaism, claim to be entitled to land they have never, by any right of descent, owned or possessed, and whose ancestors have never occupied. Such right is not based on the hypothetical origins of the Jewish people, nor on the mythological covenant of Abraham with God; it is based on international law — i.e., on the United Nations’ decision in 1947 to partition Palestine. Only!
The faith of Judaism “transformed the Jews of the Diaspora into a pseudo-nation without any of the attributes and privileges of nationhood, held together loosely by a system of traditional beliefs based on racial and historical premises which turn out to be illusory.” The idea of a Jewish national identity is based on an illusion created by a history that does not exist.
”There wasn’t one of them who had an ancestor who ever put a toe in the Holy Land. Not only in Old Testament history, but back to the beginning of time. Not one of them! They are pagan Khazars who were converted just the same as the Irish were converted. It is as ridiculous to call them “people of the Holy Land,” as it would be to call the 54 million Chinese Moslems “Arabs.” Benjamin Freedman
Oh and by the way….the word ‘daven’ is Turkic. Now I wonder where that derives from?
I am impressed by your interest in the races? A becoming hobby for an anti-racist.
Dear Roger, you talk out of your bottom, what total drivel. The world is a melting pot of faith none of the blood is 100% pure and even if you are correct how does your argument delegitimise the State of Israel or its people or Jews?
So called ‘Palestinians’ and refugees are a creation of Arab and Muslim states designed to attempt to illustrate to the world Arab suffering and help the justification of Muslim determination to carry out the commandment of Mohammed to convert all of the Infidels or alternatively seek Jihad.
Did Arabs seek to have a homeland in Palestine during the British Mandate, of course not, did they seek a homeland when ruled from 1948 to 1967 by Jordan, of course not. Is Israel an aparthide state, of course not, do Arabs who live in Tel Aviv, Haifa, Acre or any other place in Israel wish to live under Arab rule, of course not.
I am afraid Roger you are exposed as another Jewish anti semite hiding behind criticism of Israel. Please go and crawl back under the rock you came from.
Roger, you included the following quote:
It is as ridiculous to call them “people of the Holy Land,” as it would be to call the 54 million Chinese Moslems “Arabs.”
So are you saying that it is ridiculous for these 54 million Chinese Moslems to feel a connection to Mecca? Are you claiming that they–and the other millions of converts and descendents of converts–have no right to go on the hajj?
Those 54 million are Muslims…not Arabs. They are not indigeneous inhabitants of the Arabian Peninsula. Similarly, Ashkenazis are Jews, not Judeans and they are not indigeneous inhabitants of Palestine.
“Those 54 million are Muslims…not Arabs. They are not indigeneous inhabitants of the Arabian Peninsula”
I am aware of that, Roger, which is why I asked the question. I shall repeat it (slightly reformulated for clarity), since you did not answer:
Roger, are you claiming that those 54 million non-Arab Muslims–and the other millions of non-Arab converts and descendants of converts–have no right to go on the hajj to Mecca?
Of courese they do. But not to occupy Arabia claiming to be Arabs. Just as Ashkenazi Jews from throughout the world have a right to visit Jerusalem and Hebron on pilgrimage without claiming to be Judeans or Israelites.
Roger, the pseudo intellectual contortions you put yourself through to allow you to hate Jews and yet not think yourself a Jew hater are amazing. I bet you really believe you aren’t a Jew hater.
Now we have economic migrants from all around the world here in the UK and from all around the world, who have come and settled here and are now full citizens and can vote and everything. If they have enough voters in an area, they can vote who they want into any office they want. So even if you were right about the origins of Ashkenazi Jews, why shouldn’t they go settle in the Holy Land (that isn’t holy to Muslims)? Why can Arabs murder them without being called racists?
What about the thousands of Jews who always lived there, in Jerusalem, Safat, Schem (Nablous) and Hevron (up until the 1920s Arab riots ethnically cleansed Jews from the city they’d lived in for 3000 years)?
And what about the 930,000 Jews (850,000 of whom were resettled into Israel), who were stripped of their possessions and citizenship and expelled from Arab countries where they’d lived for over 2,000 years, between 1948 and 1956? Just keep in mind that they’d been in N. Africa 500 years before the Arab invasion of that region.
If you don’t know this and a lot more about recent middle east history, I suggest you read up on it before you make any more stupid comments. And if you do know and don’t care, then just go and Roger yourself Roger. Roger?
Couldn’t have put it better. Now let these idiots join another blog
ever heard of irony Norman? Satire? Mockery? you take yourself and your Jewish identity way too seriously. Chill out , relax, and join the human race.
Roger,
Firstly, your claim has no logical basis. There were non-Jews who converted to Judaism as there were Jews who converted to Christianity, Islam etc. In all cases there were the converts and the ones who converted them. Where did the latter disappear to?
More importantly, as Silke says, Judaism is not a question of “racial purity”. I have a friend who was a Protestant priest and converted a few years ago. He and his children are all 100% Jews. On the other hand a person might have had seven Jewish great-great-grandparents, but if his mother’s mother’s mother was not Jewish he’s completely non-Jewish.
Therefore, even if your idiotic illogical pseudo-historical theory had been correct it would make absolutely no difference. The Rambam taught us that the soul of every Jew including future converts, for all generations, was there at Sinai and received the Torah. They all said, “We will do, and we will listen” Likewise, Moses made his covenant on behalf of all those “who are here today and all those who are not here today” – that included Kuzars and French clergymen.
You’re welcome to say that to your mind this is nonsense. You might prefer your own Nuremberg Laws definition of “Who is a Jew?”, but it’s us who get to decide those questions, not our haters.
Finally, nothing would make me more happy than if one day it turns out that I am the descendant of a Kuzar or a Cossack. It would not weaken in any way my claim to the Land of Israel.
Judaism is not a question of racial purity? Could have fooled me? There is an obsession with blood purity in Israel. Inter-marriage is forbidden. Jews and non-Jews are not allowed to marry. This is no different from one of the Nuremberg Laws….which, by the way, was welcomed by Orthodox Jews in Germany at the time because of the fear and loathing of assimilation they shared with the Nazis. Fools. Golda Meier said that for a Jew to marry a non-Jew is to join the 6 million. Puhleeeeeze! A rabbi once opined that assimilation would finish off the job that Hitler started. These racist nutters don’t understand that miscegenation is the future whether they like it or not.
The Blut und Boden sentiment rampant in the settlers’ community and elsewhere in Israel,coupled with a Volkisch ideology, is deeply offensive and depressing to anyone who nurtures some hope for peace and brotherhood in the region.
And Rambam was a racist who stated that blacks were sub-human. So you can keep him. He was also a rabid Christophobe who claimed that Jesus was rotting in hell with the wicked. Feel the love and the wisdom!!
I refer you to the case of Oscar Rufeisen, a Jew who saved hundreds of his fellows in WW2, who after the war converted to Catholicism, became a priest, moved to Mt Carmel and applied to the Supreme Court to have himself identified as a Jew. The Court rejected his request saying that he could not be considered a Jew because he had converted to another religion. His mother was Jewish. Discuss.
If you are a descendant of a Khazar, you have no claim on the land at all. It makes you an interloper. Some Israeli Jews have a bilogical connection with the ancient Judeans. They surely have a claim, as do those indigeneous palestinian Arabs who are descendants of Jews who were forced to convert to Islam when the Arabs invaded in the 7th century.
Perhaps Ashkenazi Jews are Magog? Interesting and somewhat disturbing thought.
I’m not sure what your purpose was in writing this tripe. Do you honestly believe it or is this some daft attempt to persuade other people even though you know it has no basis in fact?
I have no intention of gracing your idiotic racism with a point by point refutation, but I shall explain to you some
“There is an obsession with blood purity in Israel.” –
This is an ignorant lie; that expression does not even exist in Judaism, Israeli law or anywhere. The only time it is used is in history lessons about Nazism. If I am wrong find me any Jewish or Israeli leader who has ever used such ideas or terminology. Those are not empty words, it’s a direct challenge.
“Inter-marriage is forbidden. Jews and non-Jews are not allowed to marry.” –
That is nothing to do with blood purity. There has been a rabbinic injunction since the time of Joshua forbidding Jews from marrying non-Jews. It is a religious law and nothing to do with blood. A non-Jew who converts is not required to change his blood, but can now marry any other Jew he wishes.
“This is no different from one of the Nuremberg Laws….” – That is because you don’t understand either of them. People were murdered for having one Jewish great-grandfather.
“…which, by the way, was welcomed by Orthodox Jews in Germany at the time” – That is the first time I’ve heard this claim. I can’t discount it off hand because I haven’t interviewed every religious German Jew, so please supply names and documents in which Orthodox Jewish leaders welcomed the Nuremberg Laws.
“The Blut und Boden sentiment rampant in the settlers’ community and elsewhere in Israel,coupled with a Volkisch ideology, is deeply offensive and depressing to anyone who nurtures some hope for peace and brotherhood in the region.” – Who was the settler leader who said any of that? Again, names and documents please.
“I refer you to the case of Oscar Rufeisen, a Jew who saved hundreds of his fellows in WW2, who after the war converted to Catholicism, became a priest, moved to Mt Carmel and applied to the Supreme Court to have himself identified as a Jew. The Court rejected his request saying that he could not be considered a Jew because he had converted to another religion. His mother was Jewish. Discuss.”
That is exactly the case that proves that Judaism is not racist. According to the crap you talk, he had all right blood, racial roots, etc. On the other hand a Christian priest who has no Jewish blood is fully accepted.
“If you are a descendant of a Khazar, you have no claim on the land at all. It makes you an interloper.” –
The State of Israel is the land of the Jewish people. A Jew is someone whose mother was Jewish or converted. Any Kuzars who converted are fully Jewish and whether you like it or not, theirs is the Land of Israel.
Now, here’s your list:
1. Find me any Jewish or Israeli leader who has ever spoken of blood purity.
2. Names and quotes of Orthodox German Jewish leaders who welcomed the Nuremberg Laws.
3. Names and quotes who have spoken “Blut und Boden sentiment” or “Volkisch ideology”
Go on. Prove that your not the ignorant racist that I’ve accused you of being!
wrong on one count and therefore on all of them.
The Nuremberg Laws didn’t allow conversion
and thus Nuff Said
——–
PS: didn’t this roger professed himself to be an ardent friend of Israel when first he showed up around here? Could it be that a Jewish heart throb dumped him?
Or is he the kind who reads ONE book and then feels entitled to expert status?
——–
How humans view the world changes over time, we, who live today, should be conscious of the fact that at sometime in the not to near future our descendants will be aghast at lots and lots of what we considered highly moral behaviour. One always tends to see the splinter in the eye of the opponent.
1. Chief Rabbi Ovadia Yousef: ‘A pious jew who does urgently need a transfusion and who faces no danger in waiting to receive blood from a strictly religious Jew, should wait.’
Chief Rabbi Mordechai Eliyahu: ‘ReligiousJews should attempt to avoid blood donations from non-Jews….such blood is detrimental to their Jewish characteristics and spirit’
Rabbi Levy Yitzhak Halperin: ‘Blood donations from non-Jews are a problem…… Jewish religious law holds that a Jewish child should not be breast fed by a non-Jewish woman because her milk consists of forbidden food and contaminates the Jewish child’
Rabbi Scheinberger, head of the medicine by law organisation: ‘Jewish religious law states that it is forbidden to transplant Jewish organs into non-Jews. It is prohibited under any circumstances to transplant Jewish organs into Arabs’
Rabbi Ginsburgh(Chabad movement): ‘If every single cell in a Jewish body entails divinity,, and is thus part of God, then every strand of DNA is a part of God. Therefore, there is something special about Jewish DNA. Jewish life has an infinite value. There is something more holy and unique about Jewish life than about non-Jewish life’
For religious Jews, the blood of non-Jews has no intrinsic value. The politically important distinction between Jewish blood and non-Jewish blood is well-known to most Israelis.
2. Some Zionist leaders in Nazi Germany shared Hitler’s belief in the primacy of race and his hostility to the assimilation of Jews among Aryans. Dr Joachim Prinz, a Zionist rabbi, who later became vice-chairman of the World Zionist Congress, a leading light in the World Zionist organisation and a great friend of Golda Meier, published in 1934 a book called ‘Wir Juden’ to celebrate Hitler’s German revolution and the defeat of liberalism. He wrote: The meaning of the German revolution for us is that the fortunes of liberalism are lost-…….the only form of political life which has helped Jewish assimilation is sunk…..we are not unhappy about the nazis ruling out assimilation and mixed marriages……Jews being forced to identify themselves as Jews is the fulfilment of our desires……..we want assimilation to be replaced by a new law…..the declaration of belonging to the Jewish nation and Jewish race. A state built upon the principle of the purity of nation and race can only be honoured and repsected by a Jew who declares his belonging to his own kind. For only he who honours his own breed and his own BLOOD can have an attitude of honour towards the national will of other nations.’
3. Max Nordau, Herzl’s confidant and right hand, wrote about ‘the blood ties that exist in the Israelite family’ and ‘ for the ancient blood to be revived, the Jews need a soil and only Zionism can give them that’
Nordau was the original Zionist Volkist
Martin Buber wanted to mould the Jewish people as a ‘blood community’ (Blutsgemeinschaft). He wrote: ‘Blood is a deep-rooted nurturing force…the deepest layers of our being are determined by blood……the his substance can, nevertheless, become a reality for the jew is due to the fact that his origin means more than a connection with things past……blood, the deepest, most potent stratum of our being that does not leave us at any hour of our life’
Zabotinsky believed that Jews have a distinctive blood that sets them apart from other people.He wrote: ‘ the source of our national sentiment is found not in education but in the blood…the sense of national identity is inherent in man’s blood in his physical/racial type. It is physically impossible for a Jew descended from several generations of pure, unmixed Jewish blood to adopt the mental state of a German or Frenchman, just as it is impossible for a negro to be a Negro’
Goodness you talk rubbish.
roger, Your cutting and pasting from “ihr” the “institute for historical review” is as meaningful as posting quotes from the kkk to “prove” that black people are inferior.
Happy Nakba roger/rich! And may all your Nakbas be ETERNAL Nakbas!
TGIAI: Never heard of that institute. I took those quotes from the horses’ mouths. And there are plenty more where they came from. I omitted the pernicious and vile racist teachings of Rabbis Zalman and Schneerson of Chabad Lubavitch……I’ll save those for another later reality check. And I can’t be bothered to post exact sources here..why should I? .it’s your job to find them if you want. But I’m not holding my breath on that one. Anyway, as they say, denial is not just a river in Egypt.
roger, “I took those quotes from the horses’ mouths”.
Really?
Present the links to the source of your cut and pastes from “the horses’ mouth”.
TGAI: why should I? If I gave you the sources, it would have no effect on your pathological denial of the racism in rabbinical Judaism whatsoever. So don’t waste my time. On the other hand, if you seek them out yourself, there is a very slim chance you might learn something.
>TGAI: why should I?
roger, To support your claim of getting it “from the horses’ mouth”.
Which “horses’ mouth”? Some holocaust denial/revisionist/kkk/white supremecist/national Socialist/Islamofascist source?
>If I gave you the sources, it would have no effect on your pathological denial of the racism in rabbinical Judaism whatsoever. So don’t waste my time. On the other hand, if you seek them out yourself, there is a very slim chance you might learn something.
Depends on the source of your cut and paste quote.
The burden of proof lies with the one who makes the claim. If you claim you went to the moon and claim it’s made of green cheese, you would also have to present your evidence to support your claim.
It appears you fear to present the source of your claim, the “horses’ mouth” as put it, because you fear, you know that your source is questionable and disreputable as the kkk/islamofascist websites that you frequent.
Daniel wanted the quotes and now silence ensues. An embarrassed and shamed one I hope. Sharon says I talk rubbish when in fact she’s referring to various statements made by Jewish political and religious leaders.
The denial and the refusal to take responsibility for these appalling sentiments made by esteemed and revered Jews is really something to behold. I was hoping for a rational and balanced response which is willing to discuss the significance, implications and consequences of these words. It’s worse than I thought.
roger has unsurprisingly failed to provide links to the source of his numbered cut and pastes. Even roger knows that quoting kkk/white supremecist/islamofascist sources makes him look laughable.
Consider the source.
Happy Nakba roger!
“It would not weaken in any way my claim to the Land of Israel.”
I see those voices haven’t quieted since we last heard from you Daniel.
Daniel
When I married a Catholic in 1960 I did so only in city hall. His mother considered me not to be married and treated me accordingly, not when visiting us but when we visited her in her little village.
Would we have wanted to get properly married by her standards he and I would have had to promise to bring up children in the Catholic faith or convert (about 6 months tutorial first).
And over all of it hangs the threat that your children will be considered bastards in your home-village, the disgrace that you live in what was then even in big cities still publicly called and derided a MischEhe (mixed marriage) (hence the bastards), denial of communion and confession for the Catholic part and excommunication.
Quite a catalogue but no blood in sight anywhere.
‘During the Q&A I was allowed to ask the panelists whether they felt ashamed that, by contributing to this false hope of “returning” to Israel, they have helped to sentence the Palestinians to lives of hell in Lebanon. I didn’t get a constructive response.’
As a matter of interest, Richard, what exactly was the response?
Kaufman said he was all for a two state solution but that the Israelis are unwilling to negotiate.
Kaufman also talks rubbish
Note that there are “Peace Now” groups in Israel.
Where are “Salaam Now” groups in Gaza, PA, Syria? Any? None?
Salaam Now groups routinely protesting firing rockets from Gaza into Israel. Chaining themselves at kassam rocket factory doors?
‘Tahboob also said Israel was created on Palestine in 1948 and he called for a two state solution with east Jerusalem as Palestine’s capital and for the right of return to be kept in place.’
Does he think a Jewish right of return should be kept in place?
‘Dr Tariq Tahboob of the Palestinian Forum in Britain told the meeting that Gaza is not a nation of beggars. It has the highest literacy rate in the Arab world and probably in the world – 93%. “They don’t want food and medicine and charity – what they want is freedom.
Dr Tahboob told the meeting that the Zionists brought five ‘d’s’ to Gaza: death, destruction, debilitation, disease and degradation . But they met their match with the capital ‘D’ which shapes the future of human beings. That is defiance. To make this defiance work we have to donate, demonstrate, (through a one million march for Palestine) and display (through the use of face book, u-tube and the media).’
http://mathaba.net/news/?x=625796
It looks like Tahboob wants an Palestinian ror/invasion of Israel. What else is a one million march for Palestine?
When you say no harm done, Richard, I am not sure. The abuse of police authority to question you on something which is perfectly legal even if you did say it (and I still don’t understand the basis on which they even approached you) has a chilling effect on democracy and free speech. And that is even before we get to escorting you off the premises. They must have given you a reason for that?!
I don’t know where you got the energy from- I was whacked after the 2 full days of activist event on Sunday and Monday, and you and Jonathan went off to this gig without pausing for breath! Indefatigable, as someone once said.!
Dr Tahboob speaks with the usual hot air of nothing. We all of course recall the Egyptians removing their shoes and running with white flags after all the false bravado of their leaders failed to materialise at the run up to the 1967 war. Rhetoric is one thing. Fact is another. What the Jews have brought to Gaza is that high literacy rate, the low infant mortality compared to other 3rd world Arab states and prosperity. Those propaganda D’s are rubbish. He must be reminded that the name Palestine was only invoked in the 1960’s as a tool with which to bash the Jews when the Arabs failed yet again to deliver the total victory they promised their people. He should be warned that Israel is even stronger than ever and it would be best to make a friend of the Jews. There isn’t an Arab state that has prospered after they kicked their Jews out.
Sharon, please forgive my miss-interpretation of your comments. In mitigation I was so angry at Roger that I was temporarily blinded. Sorry. Also I respect that you have the confidence to post your full name.
Howard I have always found that when angry, hurling abuse at my computer screen highly therapeutic. If that doesn’t work throw your computer out of the window.
Great advice, if I take aim maybe it will hit Roger?
What we seem to have here is a cesspit. A favourite pub of a bunch of rabid Judeo fascists who think Jordan is Palestine. And not a Jack or a Jacqueline among them has the balls to tell us what their plans are for the Arabs that currently live in what is commonly called the west bank in this from the river to the sea Israel.
Because you disagree with someone’s views you really have to call them “rabid Judeo fascists”? No, I know, let’s just all agree with rich.
Richard
“rich” is apparently unaware that there is a thing phsychologists call projection. People who suffer from projectionitis more than is normal and on top of that are severely lacking in self-observation tend to argue like poor rich.
Don’t they touch on the proven and provable findings of psychology in philosophy? From listening to the excellent UK-podcast Philosophy Bites I rather thought they did. But maybe the concept was too complicated for rich’s suffering from rich-ness mind.
Not at all Richard. If Israel stretches from the river to sea and no one will tell us what will happen to the indigenous Arabs on the west bank it surely is not unreasonable to fear the worst and assume that what these people have in mind might reasonably be labelled ” fascist “.
But I’m intrigued as to why the religious prefix?
yes, if someone was labelled a “jewish thief” or a “jewish liar” or a “jewish philanderer” (or a “black thief” or a “black liar” or a “black philanderer”), the speaker would be considered a racist … what is different about “jewish fascist”?
This is another no-brainer folks. Judeo refers to the belief system and ideology of Judaism. The settlers in the West Bank are there because according to their beliefs God gave them a land title deed…..at 16.30 on February 6th in 1500BC. Their presence in the West Bank is driven by a desire to fulfil messianic prophecy….they are obliged to settle that portion of land to bring on the messiah. The simultaneous presence of another people with a different set of irrational superstitions is rather inconvenient, but to the Jewish settlers the Arabs are irreleveant and insignificant, they don’t count because they are not Jewish, even though many of them have been there for centuries and indeed may well be descendants of the ancient Israelites. Nevertheless, the religious Zionists have the right to be there but the Arabs don’t. Thus, Judeofascist seems a fair term.
With respect Roger this shows why people might think you just have it in for Jews and Judaism. You see the settlers are not there due to religious belief primarily, although they might individually be motivated by that as, I believe, Daniel is.
Article 6 of the British Mandate, as incorporated in the UN Charter, encourages “close settlement by Jews on the land”. Nothing has, as yet, superseded this in international law in my view.
This is, therefore, a political/legal issue, not a religious one. The settlers are there as of legal right.
You are serious ?
I don’t mean you roger I mean happy ?
roger
So Descendancy is important for you and blood is not?
aka why do you object to talk about blood relation but approve of descendant? Is the meaning of those two in English so different?
And here I was almost convinced that you were a fighter for equality. Life is really too full of disappointments.
Here’s an extract from the Balfour Declaration.
‘His Majesty’s government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country’
The relevant part is this: ”it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine”
This has not been adhered to. 4 million Palestinians are currently without rights, be they in Jordan, Lebanon, Syria, or the West Bank.
Yes, but the BD says nothing of political rights which would include a right to a state. Now, the Mandate did mention political rights of a sort under Article 25 where it gave the right to the creation of a state in what is now Jordan and this was exercised. Trans-Jordan, therefore, came into being as the intended Palestinian state.
rich posted: “according to their beliefs God gave them a land title deed…..at 16.30 on February 6th in 1500BC”
Please provide a link to the source of your latest hallucination.
isn’t from the river to the sea a “Palestinian” slogan?
Don’t they have a copyright secured for that somewhere?
Wouldn’t it be nice, if they’d sue rich because he misappropriates their most cherished battle cry?
As ever, Jonafun opens his mouth and puts his foot in it. As far as I’m concerned anyone supporting Israel’s policies vis-a-vis the Palestinians is essentially a supporter of state terror and oppression.
I doubt if he used those words. But he’s right in a roundabout way of course: if we accept that every time a refugee crisis occurs the ‘refugee’s brethren’ are responsible for absorbing them, then all we’re doing is encouraging more land grabs, colonialist and Zionist style.
As regards the ‘Arab Jewish refugees’ and compensation, under Bill Clintoon there existed briefly such a plan [to horse trade them], which was quickly shelved after it transpired that these ‘refugees’ mostly objected to being considered refugees because they saw themselves as committed Zionists!
Gert
I am so sorry for you
Aber mein Schatz!
congratulations you German seems to improve but your reasoning your reasoning what happened to your reasoning
Wunderbar! Now give those who live there also, as non-Jews, equal rights and we’re done here. But that is something Richard is not so keen on. Richard is more of an Uzi Arad kind-of-guy, I think: interested in the territory, less keen on the Arab demographic. But we’re not supposed to call it racist, oh no!
People are trying to give the Palestinians a country, Gert. The Palestinians just don’t want it unless Israel’s thrown in. Until the Palestinians do decide they want a country more than firing rockets/sending suicide bombers into Israel then the settlers are doing nothing legally wrong in being where they are in my view. But I hope both sides can negotiate and come to an agreement which will probably entail landswaps the like of which were almost agreed in the past.
and once the “Palestinians” will have returned to behaviour fit for polite society they certainly will not mind living in a society that is happy to accommodate 20 % Jews.
After all when Israeli Jews can do it oh so superior Muslims must be capable of it.
Whatever the outcome of it all is, if it should result in another strip of land being made jew-free (judenrein) I will refuse to rejoice. And that applies even if Israelis should tell me that that had been the best deal they could get.
The fact in itself and by itself is unacceptable for me.
Ok, insert uncontrollable laughter here, Richard. Please stop taking the p*ss. Who are these ‘people’? Just about anyone of relevance resolutely takes the side of Israel, only some grass roots movements take a pro-Palestinian position.
No one should accept a bantustanised, de-militarised, Swiss cheese style ‘country’. Those ‘facts on the ground’ that you so much support have made any outlook for a Palestinians state virtually impossible, more so as every day passes by.
Go back to the negotiations of 2000\2001 which Arafat walked out on to start a bloody intifada instead.
You have some number about that? It’s true that motivation (financial incentives e.g.) varies from settler to settler. Lieberman e.g. isn’t religious, he’s just a dumb racist f*ck. But the religious bloc is important, see also the demos they mount.
Gert
I assume you have “religious blocks” in the UK also.
Are you doing well at overriding them?
The task of every society i.e. the UK one included is to balance it all as fairly as possible for the benefit of the whole. Please describe supported by examples and numbers how Israel lags and please account for the fact that Israel sufferss from a war of attrition, not only from Arabs living in Judäa and Samaria.
I’m sure you have weighed it all very carefully and come to the conclusion that as a Belgian and a UK resident your record is so much better that it is perfectly OK for you to see the splinter in the eye of the opponent but miss the beam in your own.
You miss the point dear. And then try and throw a curve ball. It’s in the long grass now somewhere.
Israel has ‘allowed’ its religious bloc far too much space. In a democracy you can fight that legally. But the Israeli electorate seems largely in a coma when it comes to the settlement question.
Gert
I’ve always suspected you of being a dodger – here is another proof
I understand the UK is bending over backwards to show “respect” to her “religious blocks” – but of course that is different, George Galloway has been democratically elected, it is all perfectly proper
You are such a hypcrite – I thought you were bad when I first “met” you but you have lost even the little uprightness you once had.
What a heap of crap Happy.If a black thief was COINCIDENTALLY black it might be racist to speak of a black thief. We speak of Arab terrorism, and Irish terrorism, and Basque terrorism, Is that racist. ?
If in this from the river to the sea Israel there was a fully democratic state there would be no fascism. If it wasn’t and the one staters won’t tell us what they envisage we have to make assumptions. An assumption of fascism. It would be fascism as practised by Jews, ie Judeo fascism.
Rich, as u well know there isn’t a Palestinian state because they don’t want it unless Israel’s thrown in with it. Until then Israel has no obligation to provide the PA with democracy. They can’t even give it to themselves as they haven’t had elections since 2006!!!
there was a fully democratic state there would be no fascism
Would you care to tell me where on earth this ideal has become real?
Hasn’t George Galloway last year scored a huge victory in Bradford?
PS:
Who sits in a glass house should refrain from throwing stones
(wer im Glashaus sitzt, sollte nicht mit Steinen werfen)
Of course the religious bloc is important, but they are there legally under international law making their religious views irrelevant in the scheme of things.
Daniel, Sharon, TGIAI what would be the status of the indigenous Arab population of the west bank in this from the river to the sea Israel you hope for ? ( in Daniel’s case from the sea to the river and beyond Israel )
Try this chant:
From the River to the Sea,
Palestine Will Never Be.
P.S. Happy Nakba!
here’s my bit of it
Israel is here to stay
No matter how you boo and bray
Nice Silke! I’ll add that to my playlist.
Richard we are not assuming a Palestinian state we are assuming a from a river state to the sea Israel as advocated by some of your bloggers.
Richard saying Abbas doesn’t want a Palestinian state is ridiculous. He is an evil self serving bastard, and without a state he is nothing. Fayyad is a good guy
If he signed a Palestinian state into existence without Israel included he’d be executed within hours by Hamas.
any idea how Fayyad would fare at the polls or are you one of those who consider “Palestinians” not yet mature enough for democracy?
Bollocks if Hamas had the means of executing Abbas it would have happened eons ago. Richard have you ever been to the west bank ?
Yes, I have. Abbas wouldn’t last, like Sadat didn’t.
Ridiculous comparison. Utterly. Try shedding your cardboard cut out image.
Abbas is Israeli colonialists best friend. Nurture him. He is your man.
Yep. And they do…
The Palestinian on the street hate him as much as they hate the IOF.
Old news rich. Your “palestinians” have a woody for their Grand Mufti and his close relationship with Socialist shitler.
And that lovefest goes on today.
You really think you’d find 5 settlers (tops!) that would accept Palestinian rule? You think settlers want to live among Palestinians? Hell, most non-settlers don’t want that either…
As regards ‘polite society’, when I think what ‘polite societies’ have historically committed in terms of crimes against humanity, I don’t have a high opinion of it. That gang that was your ancestors were also ‘polite society’ highly ‘cultured’ even…
and they had their fare share of enthusiastic followers in the country you come from.
Menachim Begin and Sharon were polite society too. Oh I forgot Shamir.
Don’t forget Pompous Yahu. Tres polite.
Damp knickers for Silke, Yahu!
Gert
don’t you think it is a bit odd, if a beautiful young man like yourself obsesses about the knickers of an old lady?
BTW isn’t wetting yourself your hobby? And while I am at it, do you sit when doing so in a plastic chair with a convenient hole in the middle? and how do you deal with the stench?
Anyway, in case there should be nothing in the habit that is indispensable for you, I highly recommend that you take some lessons from a Feldenkrais-teacher. I’m told that harmonizing the skeleton’s relation to gravity does wonders for weak bladders too. Also it might improve your social relations considerably.
It seems that this was not what I was talking about but it might help Gert’s dreams about my knickers to switch into higher gear.
BOOM
It doesn’t get more polite than a serene passagiata around the flesh pots of Sabra…and I mean the flesh pots.
are you referring to the “beautiful Jewess” crap?
I think you’ve lost him now. You certainly have me…
do a bit of belles lettres reading, dear Gert – it helps, it helps a lot.
” They can do what the immigrants to North America did ”
TGIAI …..I truly , truly am not trying to be cute here, I really don’t know.
What did the immigrants to North America do ?
They didn’t like where they lived and moved to a different land.
TGIAI is one of those who are hopelessly opposed to immigration but wouldn’t mind dumping large numbers of people into another country by transfer (‘forced immigration’).
Israel Uber Alles.
Just a reminder. Israel is an immigrant settler society
As is America, Canada, Australia, New Zealand.
Note that Spanish is not a language indigenous to South America.
How would you characterize the UK? Imperialist? Colonialist?
How would you characterize Russia which extends all the way to the Pacific Ocean?
How will you spend 7/7? The anniversary of the 7/7/05 London transport bombings by British “Asians”?
Roger, there was an ever present Yishuv (Jewish community) there, which represented an unbroken link to the land.
yes I’m curious about that. I know that European Ashkenazi immigration began round about the mid 19th Century. .But how many Jews lived there throughout the Turkish occupation?
Just before Zionism I think we are talking 25,000 Jews as against 500,000 non-Jews. As I understand it Jerusalem was nearly always a Jewish majority city. So you can see that there must also have been a large Arab immigration alongside Jewish immigration.
roger
why not ask about Arab immigration for the same period?
Gerd, Dumping large numbers of people is not as bad as murdering large number of people – as your ilk did in the 1940s.
Happy Eternal Nakba Gerd!
My ‘ilk’, TGIAI? No one in my family had anything to do with the Holocaust, quite the contrary.
Of course, if guilt by association is your game then you really are a first class imbecile.
ah TGIAI
now you’ve hit straight in the middle of the hornet’s nest between Gert and me – occasionally he brings up that somebody in his family suffered from German Nazis. But other than all of the other Europeans I ever met who “mentioned the war” he is less than specific about it. Rather peculiar and it makes me curious no end.
Why is he almost taciturn when everybody else I ever met was happy to go into graphic detail for which I gladly owe anyone of them eternal gratitude? They immunised me to the “we didn’t know anything” tales of my forebears.
PS:
Gert who is family for you? first cousins, uncles etc. or only mum and pop?
bad German again, very bad in fact
I’m very proud of my lousy German, thank you.
Family? The whole lot.
what is the whole lot
second cousins and in-laws also?
Come on you are Flemish, you must have had at least one sheep with brown spots.
claiming the whole lot is a (bad) German habit btw, a habit for which we are justly ridiculed around the world
Can we just slow down here my head is getting scrambled
I asked TGIAI what would be the status of the Arab population of the west bank in his from the river to the sea Israel and he tells me they can do what the immigrants to North America did.
What is that ? What did they do ?
Rich,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_to_the_United_States
Your pals could consider immigration to Eurabia. From what i’ve read there are enclaves in the UK that have declared their enclaves to be Sharia Law compliant.
Can we just slow down here my head is getting scrambled
you mean you have found a method to scramble a naturally scrambled head?
TGIAI:
What were once acceptable practices that led to innumerable deportations, forced evictions, deaths and insufferable misery of the victims of these practices cannot imaginably be the standard for conduct today.
Israel came into existence in similar ways to the countries you describe and the Zionists’ colonial behaviour is far from unique, no dispute there.
However, there now is a Jewish State but it can’t keep its hands off other people’s property. All the faux-justifications based on ‘National security concerns’ don’t take anything away from that: Israel occupies land that doesn’t belong to it: if there was a legal case for these lands to be Israeli, Israel would have Anschlussed them long ago. Instead, in the full knowledge of its own wrongdoing but in the absence of anything penalising the occupation and further theft of land, it just carries on as if nothing’s going on there. Well, if I were Israel, so would I: if you can get away with it scot-free why wouldn’t you?
Of course it will go one settlement too far one day. Not long off that day…
Gert, Islamofascists made their plans quite clear.
Today the Islamic Republic of Iran makes genocidal threats against Israel.
After the Holocaust Jews have learned to take what their enemies say, seriously.
Sadly for you the Israelis are not the unarmed Jews of WW2 national socialist infested Europe.
BTW Gerd, During WW2, which side was your family on?
stop slobbering
everybody knows that you are eager to witness streams of other people’s blood.
that was directed to Gert – sorry
Gert
are you by any chance claiming that evolution has worked a miracle on you and turned you within one generation into a reliably superior being?
You’re nuts, if you believe that.
And where have you read that, son? Ned Flanders’ ‘Gates of Vieanna’? Anders Breivik’s manifesto? Some deeply Islamophobic pro-Zionist rag?
Gerd, Your Breivik was Islamophobic? How many Muslims did he shoot?
Seems that he was Socialistphobic.
Here you go Gerd,
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2019547/Anjem-Choudary-Islamic-extremists-set-Sharia-law-zones-UK-cities.html
Sharia Zones in the UK.
Ooops: ‘Gates of Vienna’ of course…
TGIAI’s presence here confirms our earlier findings: this blog is increasingly a local pub for the Zionist loony fringe.
Gerd is upset that socialism is failing in Eurabia. I can’t blame him for feeling that way.
“TGIAI’s presence here confirms our earlier findings”
The royal ‘we’, always a sure sign of advanced psychosis.
roger
now since you are so knowledgeable about the Balfour declaration, does it by chance include anything as to what Jews should do if their equal right neighbours insisted on slaughterin them?
Just comply?
And btw by saying something is THE (the one and only) relevant part of something like the Balfour Declaration you have shown yourself to be totally ignorant when it comes to reading such texts.
But TGIAI they do like where they live and have no wish to move to another land. What now ? Build some railway lines and transport them east ?
Well at least TGIAI came clean and at least had the balls to declare himself a Judeo fascist. If only Daniel and Sharon and others could summon similar honesty and courage. TGIAI I salute you.
rich, Please come clean and have the guts, the intestinal fortitude to openly declare you fealty to your furher, the socialist shitler as the Grand Mufti did.
How will you commemorate 7/7?
Meanwhile rich/roger/gerd are playing it safe by ignoring the deaths of 14,000 people in the Islamofascist family Assad dictatorship of Syria.
What’s the matter boys? Would it be “counter revolutionary” to denounce the Assad family dictatorship? But what about the lives of Syrian children? You boys don’t have hearts? Tzar Putin’s communique explicitly nix any opposition?
off topic
Yeah. Tough question to answer rich.
rich, You have the blood of 14,000 Syrians on your hands.
Well thank God for shabbat, at least we don’t have the dubious benefit of Daniel telling us about the voices in his head that he takes to be God telling him that everything and more is his.l
Better than the voice of Allah telling devout followers to kill infidels, the wrong kind of Muslim – and the disciples of Allah carrying out those commandments..
the fact that Daniel is a very good writer while you start to ramble once you go beyond one liners (and even then) is obviously nagging at you.
If Daniel was the next James Joice (and trust me, he ain’t) it would still be irrelevant. But relevancy was never your strong suit, was it now Schatz?
Make that 13,999 and I probly will be able to cope.
Ah. You are indeed “progressive”.
And she whose name begins with a R and whoh as a tattoo on her right tit ? Richard why do you not allow her name on your blog ?
Richard why have you banned her very name from your blog ? Incriminating is it ?
And why have you banned reference to mrs d ?
]
Only a reductionist twit like you believes that.
He who has nothing to hide , hides nothing
Ooops.
]
Only a reductionist twit like you believes that.
Firmly against the Nazis.
I don’t know how much dimmer you can get, TGIAI. No really. Read his manifesto and the sources he quotes ad nauseam.
As regards The Daily Mail, they don’t call it The Daily Hate Mail for nothing.
In a sense it’s always a pleasure meeting Israelis like you. Every time I think Israel couldn’t lurch even more to the proto-fascist Right, she manages effortlessly, thanks to numbskulls like you.
Obviously a great deal to hide on here
Richard why do you not allow her very name on here ?
Rich, any chance of staying on politics instead of trying to humiliate people? I have nothing to hide but some things don’t get through moderation including any reference to your personal attack blog on Jonathan. As for Roberta, again you only use her to attack people. I didn’t really want to create a blog where bullies ruled.
rich, stop attacking Jonafun. We of the AZ persuasion pay Jonathan good money for pretending he’s a Zionist, he’s OUR man, you hear? He does a damn good job. It’s just a pity he isn’t on our tellies all day and all night.
I mean Harvey and Jonathan are big fans of hers
Am I she who has a tattoo on her right tit’s keeper ?
Richard is just my reference to her name blocked or is her name verbotten whoever may feel inclined to mention it ?
ok I have learned enough for today. Learning can be a very exhausting experience and I may be wonderful but I am still flesh and blood Sayonara for now
“The legality of the “settlements” is a valid argument ”
Nonsense. There is NIL legal basis for questioning their legality. This 100% canard is used ONLY by psychopathic Jew-hating dregs.
That makes all successive American administrations a bunch of fruit-loopy “psychopathic Jew-hating dregs”. But then I guess you really believe that too. Life must be so hard for you, living in a world that makes the Weimar Republic look like Disney Land.
I should really say: “[…] believing you live in a world that makes the Weimar Republic look like Disney Land.”
So when there are real concerns of a dictatorship killing its citizens, thousands, no tens of thousands in 2012, our dear concerned humanists shout “off topic” as though the dead don’t count because they can’t accuse Jews of doing the killing. Come clean boys and declare your Jew hating fascist selves for what you are.
Sharon:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1982_Lebanon_War#Casualties
Stop hiding behind the Syrian corpses, Klaffy… Assad’s crimes do not somehow absolve Israel from hers. And stop pretending you care about these ‘children of a lesser G-d’.
well, he is a younger God in both cases
Well I asked first. Declare your rabid Judeo fascism. Tell us what your plans are for the present Arab indigenous inhabitants of the west bank in your from your river to the sea Palestine. At leasr TGIAI had the balls to come clean.
I meant of course river to the sea Israel.
me thinks rich has finally gotten kicked out of the last pub in the area or is it month’s end looming that he is getting so frantic?
That’s the River Euphrates by the way. Must go by the book.
Tha’ts Daniels position Roger. God gave the universe to him but he is willing to negotiate about Pluto.
Silke were I you I would leave thinking to those of us with an aptitude for it.
if only you were me and followed your own advice
Gerty, what’s your point? The war with Lebanon was an existential war – kill or be killed, and yet the numbers you provide domnot add up to anywhere near the slaughter house that is Syria. If the Lebanese had remained on side with Israel and maintained its binational governance instead of letting herself be invaded by Syria and embrace Islam, she might still be a viable democratic state instead of one that is about to dismantle itself in the aftermath of this wonderful Arab spring you are all so fond of. Israel spent years and lots of money helping the Lebanese build their state before they, like you, got caught up in this interminable Arab dialogue about how their collective might can rid the world of Jews. What do you expect Jews to do, march backwards into more death camps? We’ll so sorry we won’t oblige. I guess your relatives didn’t reach you what happened last time Jews were rounded up for the slaughter. Never again Gerty, or is it Gerry?
Back to death camps? what are you talking about Sharon? Why these constant references to the Holocaust, something that happened 70 years ago in another context. Where are the death camps now? There are Jews everywhere in the West living quite comfortably. Most..like Richard…. are integrated and asssimilated and some not so much. They are not in danger of being gassed. They are in fact safer than the Jews in Israel and they have no intention of making aliya..like Richard. Founding Israel knowing it was also lived in by half a million non-Jews who had already been occupied by Turkey and the British, was like jumping out of the frying pan and into the fire. And it’s been a bloody mess. And it is not going to get any better. So what death camps are you referring to? The ones Obama, Cameron, Merkel have all got planned?
Roger, half a million people meant the land was highly underpopulated and underdeveloped, which is why the Zionists came. It was an impossible living at first due to the terrible conditions of the land. Many Zionists got malaria. But you have to ask why they went there and not anywhere else. They always considered it their homeland and the rise of nationalism gave them the impetus to return so to speak.
I understand Richard. Believe me. The tragedy is that the Arabs who were living there sharing the land with the few Jews present…… mostly Sephardim and mostly in Jerusalem and Safed….. are still around, and they don’t want to live in a Jewish state. What are the options? Annexe the West Bank, reoccupy Gaza, and make a single state with all citizens being Israelis and enjoying equal rights and freedom of religion? This option is an honest one but would undermine..indeed end the Jewishness of Israel and create a new entity. Another option is to continue occupying the West Bank with an inevitable settlement expansion…at least until the messiah turns up. This option is just a perpetuation of enmity and conflict. Then a third option is the 2 state solution, Even if this eventually materialises, conflict will continue as the Arabs won’t forget the Bukhari Hadith mandating the murder of all Jews before the Day of Judgement. But planting lots of Ghurqhal trees might help.
For an area the size of Wales with all this religious and ethnic fragmentation, I don’t hold out much hope. Zionism was a messianic movement…just read Herzl and Ben Gurion…..and its destiny is inevitably a tragic one. The dreamed of redemption that hasn’t materialised and is still hoped for will not come without the bloodiest blows. Is that a noble project?
I know the Ashkenazi Jews were escaping persecution but don’t forget that millions chose to emigrate from Central and Eastern Europe and Russia to the US and other western countries at the beginning of the 20th century and not to Palestine, which was open. So much for ‘next year in Jerusalem’. They are now living comfortably in their various countries and not under constant ‘existential threat’.
With Jews like you Sharon, everything is an ‘existential threat’. Sharon, BTW, was making common cause with the Phalange, a Maronite Christian group styled after the Nazis, of which founding father Pierre Gemayel showed tremendous appreciation. And don’t forget this alliance also lead to the Sabra and Shatila massacre, for which Sharon was found at least indirectly responsible.
As far as alliances go, that one really topped Israel’s collaboration, even militarily, with the South African Apartheid regime.
None of these things have anything to do with ‘existential threats’ but everything to do with USrael wanting to remain top dog in that neck of the woods. See also the current kerfuffle with Iran. Iran poses no realistic threat to USrael, other than being a force in the ascendant in the region.
As regards, “[…] this wonderful Arab spring you are all so fond of”, you really couldn’t have put it better, as a Zionist. For Israel and her enablers, the spectre of Arab democracies is very threatening, witness also Israelis crapping themselves when Mubarak was eventually toppled. To keep on top of the ME and support the West’s Queen on that chessboard, for Israel, the US and the rest of the Gang it is far more beneficial to support dictatorships around that region than to genuinely promote democracy. We also supported Saddam Hussein, pre-Kuwait, including when he was gassing his own people, so go figure!
And you might also want to ask yourselves about ‘unintended consequences’. Would there have been anything like Hezbollah, w/o Leb I? Would the average Lebanese hate Israel like they still do today?
And do you think that in another 50 years or so from now you’ll still be able to hide behind the Holocaust to whitewash any of Israel’s atrocities by crying ‘existential threat’?
Gert you don’t reason with these people. Did your momma never tell you that you can’t reason someone out of a position they didn’t arrive at reasonably ? You just keep them typing and learn. I mean before I looked in here I didn’t fully understand the importance of how this stone age people heard voices in their heads that they took to be God telling them everything was theirs.
Not everything rich, just the land we’ve continuously dwelt in for over 3,000 years.
Assuming for argument’s sake you’re right about that, it doesn’t occur to you that setting up shop in the middle of such an ocean of potential genocidaires might not have been an optimal survival strategy to begin with?
We didn’t “set up shop” Gert, we stayed on after the Arab invasion of around 500ad. Remember, we’d already built quite an attachment to the land after 2,000 years or so.
Here’s another massive media crack in the US’s pro-Zionist media landscape. HuffPo, not exactly known for its voices critical of Israel, posts this.
The wheels are coming off the US’s pro-Israel ‘policy’ and Joe Sixpack is slowly learning the truth about the Zionist Entity…
Keep dreaming, Gert.
Richard, you clearly aren’t paying attention to what’s going on in the US. Sure, for now US support for Israel remains guaranteed. But things really are changing there.
Young American Jews aren’t afraid now to break the omerta. And non-Jews aren’t afraid of the AS word anymore.
It’s partly hubris that will lead to Israel’s humiliation, hubris reflected by parrots like you.
Yawn.
Gerd, 9/11 ruined your dreams. As did the bombing of Pan Am 103, 7/7/05 bombing of London transport, Mumbai India massacre, Bali bombing, Beslan school massacre.
Stop it Gert, it’ll make you go blind. Trust me, I’m a Palestinian doctor.
Richard why do you say that ? It is a very precarious existence you have to admit. Israel is the only country in the world whose existence is ENTIRELY dependent upon the financial, and diplomatic largesse of another country. A country that without another country’s security council veto wouldn’t last five minutes. Are you happy with that ?
You are happy to gamble ” eternal Israel ” on the assumption that that will never change ?
I am not sure I agree Gert. I think the real existential threat ti Israel is it’s internal contradictions.
Well I dispute your thesis but USA will always support Israel if anything because of the 75m Christian evangelicals.
If I were British without a chance for Israeli citizenship I would worry about this man – as Michael Totten rightfully says, he is good at pushing all the right buttons. One can only hope that his eyes are lacking in magnetism.
How many loony lefties are there in the UK? any chance that he’ll get a substantial number of non-muslim votes?
I know the shtick about the crusaders is not totally ineffective on the version of Western guilt I harbour.
Well in any way we may be sure, that those who’ll vote for him, if he finds attractive enough deputies and hardy enough bullies will argue like Gert, rich and roger. What a sorry threesome they are.
http://www.worldaffairsjournal.org/blog/michael-j-totten/galloway-syria
Galloway on Syria
22 June 2012
If you know who George Galloway is, I don’t have to tell you that his opinion of what’s happening right now in Syria is rank and appalling. You might get a kick out of watching him say it, however. Not even the most ardent Arab Nationalist propagandist I’ve ever met knows how to push all the emotional buttons quite this effectively.
Silke your stupidity is matched only by your rudeness. Oh ok and maybe by your incoherence.
rich darling
are you trying to say that Galloway is not to your taste?
If so then how come he paraphrases you?
WOW Richard. And your gamble is that these 75m evangelists will always be preoccupied with Israel ? You are sure they will not wake up one morning and realise you are never going to accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Saviour and say ok screw you ? Your investment in Israel is underwritten by a bunch of quasi christian fruit loops ?
Dear God.
rich
you are apparently completely ignorant of Christian stubbornness and ability to endure frustration over hundreds and hundreds of years and never ever give up.
Continued world-wide Islamist atrocities guarantee that the “religion of peace” will get the scorn it has earned.
75 m seems a little steep to me: that’s almost half of the electorate. Even Hagee’s CUFIs only claim 9 million. But no: there’s no reason to believe that this support for Israel will continue unabated forever even from that group. There exist Christian Evangelist groups of many stripes, there’s even an anti-global warming group.
All this kind of ‘love’ is highly engineered and can be re-engineered. All Israel has to do is continue its policies vis-à-vis the Palestinians and internally lurch towards the Judaic equivalent of the Taliban. Ordinary Joes with, admittedly superficial Universalist views’ will start raising eyebrows. That’s what increasingly is happening among younger American Jews.
The idea of Anti-Christ is alive and kicking since exactly when?
Yes, there is that but with the Israeli Left completely outnumbered that might not matter much.
Let us get real. Most Americans ” support ” Israel. The vast majority of Americans don’t have the remotest clue where Israel is or what it is. But the word filtered down from the political class. First, Israel is helpful in the cold war against the commies. The cold war ended. But as luck would have it it was replaced by the ” war on terror “. So word filtered down from the political class. Israel is helpful in the ” war on terror” . They hate ragheads too. So most Americans support Israel. But the ” war on terror ” will pass just as everything else does.
Before long Americans will be preoccupied with China and India and the threat to their pleasant valley Sundays………Can Israel help out here ? No.
So bye bye Jewish state.
Real friends of Israel would have it forego its rogue state status, entirely dependent on the whims of another entirely self interested people. In short Israel normalises or it is kaput.
I see the United Kingdom going “bye-bye”. The UK permits “Asians” to curse and spit on returning British soldiers in Luton. How long until there is a backlash?
rich, you wrote “Before long Americans will be preoccupied with China and India and the threat to their pleasant valley Sundays………Can Israel help out here ? No.”
Well you’re wrong. Israel is busy innovating in the fields of medicine, computing & communication, agriculture & engineering and just about every other field of human endeavour, to such an extent that soon they’ll have added an extra 10 years to the life expectancy of every human being on the planet.How many Americans will want to give up their Jew doctors and pharmacists for Muslim homicide bombers and Sharia law?
And since Israel’s discovery of oil and gas reserves that may be the equal of Saudi Arabia’s, how long do you think that Europe will keep sucking up to the West hating Islamofacist fanatics and Russian mafia types? I’d say just long enough to get the supply lines into Greece and Italy sorted.
Then bye, bye Arab bully boys, go back to raping young girls and buggering young boys. It’s not racist to say that, it’s part of their culture. Trust me, I’m a Palestinian freedom fighter.
rich:
Talk of ‘why are we wasting USD 3 Bln p.a. taxpayers money on this tiny belligerent place?’ is already rife in many American circles.
US opinion will largely turn against Israel in the medium-long term.
Well you’re wrong. Israel is busy innovating in the fields of medicine, computing & communication, agriculture & engineering and just about every other field of human endeavour, to such an extent that soon they’ll have added an extra 10 years to the life expectancy of every human being on the planet.How many Americans will want to give up their Jew doctors and pharmacists for Muslim homicide bombers and Sharia law?
And since Israel’s discovery of oil and gas reserves that may be the equal of Saudi Arabia’s, how long do you think that Europe will keep sucking up to the West hating Islamofacist fanatics and Russian mafia types? I’d say just long enough to get the supply lines into Greece and Italy sorted.
Then bye, bye Arab bully boys, go back to raping young girls and buggering young boys. It’s not racist to say that, it’s part of their culture. Trust me, I’m a Palestinian freedom fighter.
Israel’s best friends would indeed be those who tell it to do the right thing. That day will come.
Yes Gert, for once you’re right. And the right thing for Israel to do now is pick the most remote and sparsely staffed Iranian nuclear facility they can and nuke it with the smallest and cleanest bomb that they can. Then inform Tehran that the next ones will fall on the most densely populated cities of Iran and be the dirtiest and biggest bombs they have. That’ll get the Arabs fouling their pants every time they think of attacking Israel. That’ll keep them from harming my children. That’s the right thing to do.
rich
if Mondoweiss which seems to be one of Gert’s favourite sources of information should become majority opinion then all of us should go down on our knees and pray to be saved.
I once heard that Weiss-fellow on an extended interview – it is amazing whom they allow to remain uninstitutionalised these days.
On a scale of gaga he might even outrank your beloved Galloway
My beloved Galloway ? Does that free me to speak of your beloved Hitler ? Or are you a protected species, free to insult at will but protected from having to take anything ?
Galloway is alive
Schatz: what does Galloway have anything to do with anything here?
Galloway’s got many faults but he was spot on about the Iraq war. That is something for which even the pro-War ‘Left’ have never forgiven him for.
Silke’s always enjoyed a degree of protection here. Zionists aren’t picky about where their support comes from.
rich, you pick a poor example, as surely hitler is another one of your idols, along with arafat and ahmadinejad?
As regards Mondoweiss, I don’t know how you could possibly judge that site, Schatz. I’ve yet to see you bring up one (just ONE!) point of substance re. I/P, whether it’s here, at EoZ or even at the HB. Like I wrote before, you’re a Zio-groupie, nothing more, nothing less. What I have heard from you is racist ‘banter’ (your word) regarding ‘pimpled people’, ‘blond people’, the French etc etc, i.e. small talk coming from a racist philosemite. And of course ‘kissy, kissy, Miss Piggy?’
and I won !!
Banter sounds unfamiliar to be, I understand the word, but I don’t think it was ever part of my working vocabulary. But who am I to dare to doubt you.
What you call “substance” I perceive as your salivating for Jewish blood. And yes I read what you post approvingly on your wanna-be blog. And I read the discussions you had at the beginning when you argued all in favour of deviousness.
And another to substance: I saw that guy argue with the whole bunch of you at HB day after day, week after week patiently, excellently informed and all he got for his pains were the most evil sneers imaginable. Well then I thought I might try a bit of prankstering to teach you guys a lesson – Now that word I admit is part of my working vocabulary. And by then I had a nice big fury in me for how your precious HB had threatened Yaacov with his son’s death. That my dear Gert is, what no father should do to another father and for which I feel entitled to revenge.
BTW you haven’t called me Nazi-Girrrrrrl in a long time? Why so shy? Because you want to convince your new buddies rich and roger that you are fit for polite society? that you are a gentle man in the word sense?
BTW have you told rich who thinks his having flown over Judäa and Samaria is proof of whatever he thinks it is proof of that you have never been near the country? Or have you been since that interview with that Pakistani-guy where you impersonated the worldly wise politics wonk?
BTW recently you claim so much knowledge about the US. When have you last been there and if yes where and for how long? And if not what are your real life experiences with real life Americans?
So now go on having a great time complaining and claiming that I only dare to “misbehave” because I have “protection”. You silly idiot – This is the net, here nobody can scare me by casually mentioning that I’d better be careful when venturing outside at night.
Btw have by now any of your “friends” from HB shown up on your blog? No? I thought so, you always seemed like a bunch of true one for alls and all for one to me. And somehow I think you should have been the most obvious heir when HB fell silent. Well failure, once again. How sad! how truly sad. But then there is lovely Bridlington.
Schatz:
Once again, nothing but personal anecdotes, ‘points’ that have nothing to do with anything here (my blog for instance) and of course blather about Bridlington. No news on the Facebook front, though.
There’s one serious point though and it is this one:
You can prove this extremely serious allegation? Or is this another example of your poor and selective reading skills? Please cough up or shut up: ‘HB had threatened Yaacov with his son’s death’, CLEAR evidence please. The sentence rambles of course: whose death are we talking about here? Yaacov’s son or HB’s son?
As regards ‘revenge’, you think comment spamming someone’s blog constitutes ‘revenge’? Boy, he must have been quaking in his boots, old HB… Not even a paper cut to his little finger.
yes I could probably find the stuff but it is not like you want to misunderstand it – HB mocked Yaacov for telling that his son had visited one of his soldiers who got wounded and then taunted him.
I call that a threat.
Just as I call fiddling with my moniker stealing it.
Well HB seems to hate my guts to this day and this kind of makes me happy.
But since we are into proving, how about proving “banter”?
And as to spamming a blog thread I remember a time when you tried your very best to spam the comment thread of this blog taunting Richard again and again that he had to monitor or else his blog would go down. And no, on this one I trust your memory to be still in good shape …
And last but not least HB could have banned me any moment I challenged him to do it again and again. I wouldn’t have minded at all. In fact I’d have loved it.
Schatz:
Yet another one of Silke’s damp squibs. Expectations weren’t high but you really disappointed here.
As regards ‘fiddling’ with your moniker, I haven’t got the slightest clue what you’re on about. But I’m not interested in your explanations, Silke. You are a fantasist.
In short, you’ve got nothing.
But Gert – as concerns the moniker-saga you should be really really proud of yourself, after all you explained how it had been possible.
I’d post the sage for you here so you could gloat in the glory of your achievement, but since you aren’t interested in having the tiny little bit you ever achieved in you life, I won’t do it.
By all standards all through the times when somebody got cursed he/she considered that to be a threat.
Jew baiter? Oh come on Norman , you can do better than that. What do you think you are? a bear? Try engaging with the discourse and admit to and then explain why Talmudic Orthodox Judaism is so racist. You are either practising deceit…they call it taquiya in Islam…and it’s interesting that Judaism doesn’t make this strategy explicit…at least Islam owns up to it……..or you are suffering from a huge pathological blind spot. As I detect malice in your comments, I would say that deceit is your game. Come on man deal with it instead of resorting to pathetic avoidant personal attacks. I object strongly to your Gentile…no let’s say Goy… baiting…but I know very well where you get it from.
roger, Perhaps you can inform us as to which group:
– hijack passenger planes and fly them into office buildings
– place bombs on passenger planes like Pan Am 103
– bomb London buses and the underground
– use poison gas (a WMD) on the Kurds of Halabja Iraq – killing 5,000
– kill 14,000 people in Syria
– engage in current day slavery in Sudan and Mauritania
– stone women to death for offending “family honor”
– execute homosexuals in a self proclaimed “Islamic Republic”
– spit on and curse parading British soldiers in Luton
If you have difficulty answering, roger, try Google.
Norm: I have tried so so hard but fail to see where there is any Jew baiting on here. Can you give me an example? I mean Jew baiting..not rational criticism of Israel’s policies.
Your very use of the term Jew baiting is in fact Gentile baiting. But I think that’s too deep for you.
Wiccans?
I’ll be back to examine the evidence tomorrow.
Don’t rush.
Mr Millett I must question your decision to allow Jew baiters and racists to have a free say on your website seemingly without moderation. I am all in favour of free speech but there are plenty of neo-Nazi and extreme left wing websites where unfortunately one can read the kind of offensive comments spewed out by roger/rich/Rich/Gert on which those nethanderals may comment to their hearts’ content. Allowing someone to post the Khazar fallacy beloved of Holocaust deniers and Israel delegitimisers even with Daniel Marks’ excellent response which was then followed by a plethora of out of context Rabbinic rulings with no links to back up an outrageous claim of Judaic racism should be completely unacceptable. Fair comment is just that – Jew bating is not fair comment and should neither be encouraged nor tolerated.
Thanks, Norman. Point taken. I will consider.
Great point Mr Cohen, the however is that all of these people have had each and every one of their sick views and opinions ‘shot down in flames’ by many of the contributors. Maybe let them continue to have their ‘free speech’ whilst we continue to answer?
In my experience it is a balance that is extremely hard to get right.
The problem with the “shooting down in flames” is that one can get in very few of them while lies are spewed easily.
Everyone who restricts him/herself in an argument to sane responses is kind of fighting with both hands tied to his/her back.
Most puzzling however is to me why they hang out here. Do they think that on a blog full of well read commenters they may find a convert? Me thinks not, I think they are here because they enjoy Jew-hurting and rely on the hope that once in a while one of their abuses will cause pain.
In real life people like that are called sadists.
Silke, 100% agree with your sentiments. I passionately believe this blog needs to remain without a moderator, they can bait all they like, what they get back in return is calm considered and well argued debate that gives them no room to manoeuvre. It’s actually then leaves them with only………
roger | June 24, 2012 at 5:02 pm | Reply
Richard….I must protest at you allowing Gentile-baiters like Norman Cohen on here spewing his hate
And this guy Richard considers himself educated and an intellectual, ha
Howard
sadly I remember a time when Gert got so out of hand, that I became in favour of banning, not because of the stuff he threw at me, I rather liked that because it made me know him all the better and it made him look even more ridiculous than he already is, it was because I know for sure that a blog can be spam-commented into silence.
You can debunk them as often as you like they’ll repeat the old lies and throw in new ones at a speed that is un-debunkable – so once they have served their purpose at making their ilk look as ridiculous as “dear” George Galloway is it may be advisable to lock them out for a while to prevent the comment section to evaporate from the sheer boredom of their dirt.
Jew baiter? Oh come on Norman , you can do better than that. What do you think you are? a bear? Try engaging with the discourse and admit to and then explain why Talmudic Orthodox Judaism is so racist. You are either practising deceit…they call it taquiya in Islam…and it’s interesting that Judaism doesn’t make this strategy explicit…at least Islam owns up to it……..or you are suffering from a huge pathological blind spot. As I detect malice in your comments, I would say that deceit is your game. Come on man deal with it instead of resorting to pathetic avoidant personal attacks. I object strongly to your Gentile…no let’s say Goy… baiting…but I know very well where you get it from.
neo-nazi and left wing. Both socialists.
Neo Nazi? Gentile baiting is catching on here.
oh I see
roger rides to the rescue of these gentile? guys – I’m sure they’ll love him for it – at about 0:55 into the video it gets really interesting –
http://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutschland/tatort-wismar-die-neonazi-gang-vom-werwolfladen-a-438680.html
Happy Nakba roger!
Oh and Gert instead of blindly tying Israel in with Apartheid South Africa I suggest you read this article:
http://mepc.org/journal/middle-east-policy-archives/south-africa-and-middle-east?print
As they say all is not black and white. Apartheid could not have continued without the connivance of the European States notably Great Britain – Israel’s position was miniscule in comparison to the investmrnt and trading relationship South Africa enjoyed with Europe. Following 1973 when the African States were blackmailed into cutting off ties with Israel by the threat of an Arab Oil Embargo South Africa was the only country to maintain relations. But as naomi Chazen points out those relations were cool.
Thanks, Norman.
That’s all you’ve got, Norman? Pfff…
Still, thanks for appealing to have me banned. Much obliged.
Consider it a personal BDS.
Seems like the Jew baiter wants me to engage him – I would not give him the legitimacy or the time of day.
Richard….I must protest at you allowing Gentile-baiters like Norman Cohen on here spewing his hate.
Roger please give an example of my gentile baiting. I am attacking people in their own language for their vicious malicious and mandacious attacks on Israel and its people and supporters – their religion race or ethnicity has no bearing on the matter.Grow up!
You are not honest Norman. I guess I’m asking for too much from you.
roger, And based on your avatar, you’re ugly too.
Happy Nakba!
Norm: can you give an example of Jew baiting on here please? I’ve tried so hard to find one and failed. I’ve only been able to find rational criticism of Israel’s policies towards the indigeneous Arabs.
Your use of the term Jew baiting is in itself a form of Gentile baiting. But that’s too deep for you to grasp.
If you call constant, one sided, fanatical and obsessive demonisation of the only liberal, western style democracy in the Middle East “rational criticism”, then you shouldn’t be banned, you should be committed.
roger if that is your name I asked first. Your arguments are so convulated as to be meaningless. If you had ever read one of your own posts – you’ll see what I mean.
But since you ask I find this totally offensive and Jew baiting. “There wasn’t one of them who had an ancestor who ever put a toe in the Holy Land. Not only in Old Testament history, but back to the beginning of time. Not one of them! They are pagan Khazars who were converted just the same as the Irish were converted” You know this how? I want to see the “wonderful” neo-Nazi websites you are going to direct us to to prove this. Or maybe even the discredited Shlomo Sands.
As you can see from my name I am descended from priests who served in the Temple and yet I am Ashkenazi and for your information a convert cannot be a priest. Where do you find your Jew baiting material and by the way are you a Jew for JC?
Norm: you could be a descendant of a Cohen who married a female convert. Many did throughout the centuries. That makes you an…er…let me think. No, I’ll let you figure that one out.
“i.e., on the United Nations’ decision in 1947 to partition Palestine. Only” Wrong! Try reading the Mandate for Palestine.Link here
http://unispal.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/0/2FCA2C68106F11AB05256BCF007BF3CB
which itself recognises the Jewish People’s legal historical and moral right to the Land of Israel.
bosdekeroger and the Pope could have had a Jewish mother. Anything intelligent to say? You are obviously ignorant of the fact that a Cohen is not allowed to marry a convert – but carry on with your nonsense.
My opinion for what its worth is that Gert and Roger are no more offensive than they are offended by others, they are both veteran commentators on this page and should be allowed to comment freely. Naturally, if they say anything particularly insulting, like some of Gerts attacks against Silke, it’s your call.
Rich, on the other hand is another kettle of fish. A few weeks ago he wrote the following:
‘You think I am here to persuade anyone of anything ? You are dumber than you look.”
Up until that point I had naively imagined that he was here to debate issues under discussion. It was then, however, that I realized that he had set himself the goal of disrupting dialogue. He has twice in the last week caused you to close the reply option and though he has lost every debate, he has been extraordinarily successful. Ruben has left, Sharon rarely comments and frankly, by his forever lowering the level of conversation to the gutter he has made this blog a much less pleasant place to be. In my opinion he should be given a week to calm down and then his comments should require approval before he is allowed to post them, until such a time as he is able to communicate in a reasonably respectful way.
In my opinion, Roberta was far less abusive than him and say what you want about her views, she did have knowledge. I believe that by continuing to allow Rich to “comment” freely you are hindering, rather than promoting, free speech.
Whenever Gert has had a go at me he has discredited all his other comments. Therefore I am all for letting him expose himself to his heart’s delight on that subject and that even more so since he now has made the superbly astonishing and improbable claim that there was absolutely no brown or even brownish sheep in his family.
As I find Gert’s copy and pasting on Israel exceedingly boring I am all in favour of letting do the discrediting of his “facts” himself.
I have a hunch that Gert wants to pass as a gentleman and man of the world (see Pakistan-interview) and thus I get great satisfaction from watching how he destroys his ambitions once again.
I think if he could be goaded into going full speed again even his newly found friendship with rich might suffer.
Personally I find roger the most off-putting from the three. But then hypocrisy always makes my stomach turn.
His demands towards Israel are the same that the king makes of the miller’s daughter in Rumpelstilzken, either spin this straw to gold or get executed.
I find Roger more confused than evil.
Last week he tried proved Jewish belief in racialism and the purity of blood by bringing modern rabbinical responsas regarding kashrut. He’ll correct me if I’m wrong, but I believe that he really thinks that the fact that some (important) rabbis warn Orthodox Jews to prefer the blood of others who keep kosher, this means that they believe in the supremacy of Jewish blood.
He is an excellent example of a little knowledge being a bad thing, but he’s not the only one. I was at a meeting this morning where a rabbi tried to argue about Western Post-Modernism, which he claimed he had studied for “a whole year”. I think he knew more about this than Roger understands about Talmud, but the attitude is the same; to enter an enormously rich world of culture and though in order to find some silly tidbits that “disprove” it all.
All that being said, I do not think he should be banned, he is generally polite and talks in a sensible way. He is here to conduct dialogue, not to disrupt.
All I am reading here are dismissals of my contributions and my person rather than any detached, objective and rational response to what I have posted. Doesn’t anybody want to deal with what I am presenting and raising rather than coming at me with ‘what can you possibly know?’ .. All the information I have about Jewish fundamentalism comes from Israeli scholars. I trust their authority and knowledge and have checked the sources in the rabbinical texts. This doctrine is there, it exists, and nobody on here is admitting it. Just take Chief Rabbi Yousef, spiritual head of the Orthodox Shas party with MKs in the Knesset, as a recent example. Is someone on here going to reprimand him for his racist remarks or not? Or just go for ad-hominem attacks, shooting the messenger? I repeat, I support Israel’s existence but remain critical of the influence of the religious right-wing and the inseparability of religion and state and the ensuing theocratic tendencies.
Daniel
I am notoriously bad at remembering what is part of which ism and especially one that by its name already makes no sense to me therefore I beg forgiveness, if this doesn’t qualify as post-modernism – I link to it hoping that maybe you or somebody you know may enjoy it in connection with your discussing post-modernism. (are they the preachers of post-modernism or the post-modernists trying to imply that I am not modern, that is not part of the here and now?)
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/modern
——–
it’s from a report on a Slavoj Zizek event
A man I haven’t spoken to before leans in. “I have a PhD in Hegel,” he says.
“Sorry—of course I’m generalising…” I backtrack.
“But I wouldn’t say I understand Hegel,” he replies.
http://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/blog/24-hour-zizek-less-than-nothing-hegel/
As to Roger – he is a slanderer
You may be interested in finding what those I-am-pro-Israel-slanderers are thinking and viewed like that he certainly is an interesting specimen in the same way that I find Gert going after me interesting.
I find when it comes to Judaism and Islam, a little knowledge is more than enough. I’ve had the same dialogue on here that I’ve suffered with Muslim fanatics, who insist, after I’ve quoted various verses from the Koran and Hadith advocating mass murder of Jews and infidels, world domination and the subjugation and abuse of women, that as a non-Muslim I cannot know Islam, that my knowledge is inadequate, I don’t read Arabic..blah blah blah.
Sorry Daniel, what I am discovering is sufficient for me to pass judgement on aspects of Judaism i find quite unacceptable to a rational mind not subject to superstition and fear-mongering.
The unholy tie between state and synagogue is promoting a brand of extremism turning Judaism into a militant faith…as it originally was. And the religious right is gaining power within the IDF, with posssibly catastrophic consequences.
Israel must separate state from religion, end the occupation and create a new civil identity that can be shared by Jews and Arabs.
Roger, sounds like you’re calling for the destruction of Israel as a Jewish state, no?
Sent from my BlackBerry® wireless device
roger
what do you say about what Yaacov Lozowick told us about Rabbi Yousef?
http://yaacovlozowick.blogspot.de/2010/09/rabbi-speaks-like-rabbi.html
Never mentioning anything but those sides of Rabbi Yousef that don’t appeal to your view of an ideal world strucks me as a bit onesided and that’s why I don’t take you serious, dismiss your piled up “knowledge” as irrelevant and read it as slander. If it reads like propaganda, it is propaganda and I find propaganda boring. Here I use propaganda as a synonym for slander.
In the end it is you trust your sources and I trust mine. Yours as presented by you seem way too lopsided and too focused on one aspect of it all to be worth paying attention to.
I could rant the way you do about Jewish religion about Christians in my own country for hours on end and besides finding proof in their holy texts I could tell heartbreaking stories of my own life suffering from their doings. What good would that do in order to bring about the by me dearly wanted greater distance between “my” state and our churches.
But all my ranting would have to disregard the seemingly inextricable financial problem involved in more decidedly separating “my” state from its churches. And on how to solve that problem I have no smart idea whatsoever.
As long as I disregard those legal obligations all my rantings against the to my taste too close relation between the two is empty blather. I may enjoy the occasion for showing off my vocabulary but that’s about it.
Not at all. The Jewish state continues while allowing a percentage of Arabs citizenship with the same rights as Jews. However, to preserve the Jewish identity of the state it would be necessary to ensure that the Jews remain a majority for electoral purposes. The problem is how to determine which Arabs become citizens as not all of them could, given that they would outnumber the Jews.
The only Palestinians with a possible claim to be a refugee number about 40,000. Their descendants aren’t. The Palestinians won’t agree to that though. So what do you propose?
Roger,
Please be very careful when making unfounded allegations regarding Islam. I suggest you retract that statement!
that has to be thrashed and negotiated. It would be arduous but the offer hasn’t even been made yet.
Sorry Almani I will not be careful. The truth is sacred….not Islam, not Judaism, not al Aqsa, not the Temple, not Hebron, not Mecca……none of that is sacred. The only sacred thing on this planet is the truth. And I will uphold it. Even if you indirectly threaten me with amputation.
Daniel
The basis for your proposition that someone who posts “Talmudic Orthodox Judaism is so racist” may be said to be conducting polite discourse escapes me. I am all for fair comment each of us living in Israel has a gripe against Government policy and why should anyome else not join in. However the line has to be drawn when the comment descends into something like this – plain hatred –
This could be taken from a Gebbels phrasebook without hardly changing a word.
The person making that comment has never even been to Israel and yet he consideres himself qualified to make statements which are a farrago of lies from start to finish. Then you have the roger person with his manufactured distintinction between Talmudic Judaism and Torah Judaism a topic to be found on Neo-Nazi, Christian Replacement Theology and Islamist websites together with the malicious and mendacious claim that Ashkenazi Jews are just a bunch of converts. I am sorry engaging people with such a warped understanding of the position who see it solely from one extreme position to which even many Arabs do not subscribe and will no matter how eloquent or compelling your responses are refuse to accept any of the truths you post is a total waste of time – in my view they should be answered in the same language they employ against Israel, its people and supporters. As you can you do not need to rub very hard to see what lurks below their thin veneer of politeness.
Hi Norman,
I’d love to actually meet. One day I’ll come to the 5:50 quorum at MA.
I basically come too this excellent blog to conduct dialogue with people with whom I do not agree. If it were just you and I here I dare say conversation regarding the Arab-Israeli conflict would soon dry up and we’d decide to learn Talmud together instead.
I know that what you’ll say. If you want to argue with the other side, then why discuss with non-entities like Roger or Gert who know nothing more about the conflict than you do of the Mars. That is a good point. However, I do conduct dialogue with local Palestinians as I’m sure you do. They are among my colleagues and students.
I’m not sure why I carry on here, perhaps it’s because I love Silke, but I do, and as long as I’m here it means talking to the likes of Gert and Roger too. I’m not going to change the way they talk, and I may even not manage to alter their opinions, but here and there I have had some influence on a few and for an old man, that’s okay too.
Regards
Daniel
love wholeheartedly returned
provided you refrain from wanting to have me protected from Gert 😉
As much as I enjoy in real life getting helped into my coat or having my shopping bag carried, as much I enjoy on the net that even a cowardly woman like myself can enjoy herself infuriating a man without having to fear that he may bodily lash out at her.
now I’ve landed myself in moderation –
I swear I haven’t used any swear word
you committed slander by calling me a slanderer. Is that difficult to understand?
Why do I bother?
roger
I understand that you consider yourself to be at the center of my universe but the comment in moderation isn’t even remotely concerned with you.
Your remarks about Islam are kind of cute – I remember that at the time of 9/11 there were just Bernard Lewis and Gilles Kepel and Olivier Roy I think was the third who had some expertise. Since then they have proliferated and in the blogosphere everybody who can decipher words claims to be an Islam expert.
To make it easy for you I recommend to you to listen to the 3 Boston lectures by Paula Frediksen on Sin: The Early History of an Idea (please notice that she needs 3 hours just to give an overview of the “early history”.
Now everybody who claims by picking a raisin here and a raisin there from a text can explain the whole village of ideas learned people have built around intractable problems is hubristic and if he does it by negating everything else those people have achieved in the area of thinking he slanders.
I am amazed though that you who claims to be a reader choses to look at the world wearing blinkers – Can it be that you read only non-fiction? if yes that might be a clue how you got into those unfortunate convictions.
Does Islam currently dominate the news with a peculiarly off-putting version of itself? Of course but much to my regret I also had to notice that there was a lot of public musing and display of “knowledge” of what religion had to do with the case where a man rather publicly slaughtered his wife.
Since then we have had a father who killed his four kids and a grandmother who killed two of her grandchildren. I have as yet found no mention of their religion anywhere.
Christians have had their outbreaks of lunacy also, even while under the influence concentrating on their own, justified by some text here or there.
BTW don’t you realise that by saying Israel must do this, Israel must do that, you are giving a free pass to all the intifadists she has to cope with? Hamas, Hezbollah all will be Kumbayah once Israel does what you want her to do? If that ain’t Hubris …
ha ha ha cowardy cowardy custard
Daniel and others
since Gert loves to accuse me of being a Zionist-groupie let me confess, that I am right now listening to this and find it hard to imagine that somebody like Daniel Kahnemann could be the “product” of another culture which of course reinforces my Zionist groupyness. (Gert at one time said I could only argue the way I do because my Zionist husband ordered me to do it – misogyny at its loveliest)
Enjoy!!!
I’d love to argue Kahnemann out of at least one of his ideas but if somebody feels like bathing in sanity for a while, I highly recommend listening.
http://www2.lse.ac.uk/publicEvents/events/2012/06/20120601t1300vPT.aspx
Glad to see someone knocked Gertie’s wheelchair and brought the Jew-obsessed Yiddy fiddler back to life!
The unholy tie between state and synagogue is promoting a brand of extremism turning Judaism back into the militant faith it first was in the glory days of Joshua’s conquest and genocide. And the religious right is gaining power within the IDF, with possibly catastrophic consequences.
Israel must separate state from religion, end the occupation and create a new civil identity that can be shared by Jews and Arabs.
Hello Roger,
Your idea is quite appropriate for Israel,if you so wish, but not for any other Middle Eastern states. I hope that you have no plans to “separate state from religion” in Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Iran or any other Arab state. Any hand that tries to do so will be cut off.
The elections that have recently taken place in Egypt show that the people have no wish to see a separation of state from religion. That is also why Hamas control Gaza, Turkey is moving away from the defecation of secularism and I could continue.
If you Jews wish for a separation of state from religion, that is perfect, but leave it at the border!
‘the defecation of secularism’ lol that’s priceless. Thanks for the entertainment. Richard is probably wondering which box he’s opened. But this is the gig Richard..the issues are coming out. The heart of the matter is religion and not land.
The heart of the matter for you is religion, Roger. No one else. I think you’re making something out of nothing. As you say all religions can be criticised. If you’re in the UK you also happen to be living in a country with certain inequalities due to religion. It’s the nature of the beast.
Yes the heart of the matter is religion. You are right. Not for me but for 350 million Arabs who want to annihilate Israel and the Jews…..and for a few million Jews who believe in the myth that God promised them the land they have decided to cling on to in the face of those 350 million who want to destroy them. it’s all about religion man. And that’s not my opinion. I feel for the secular Jews in Israel who just want to have a good time enjoying their freedom but they have ended up in the wrong place with the constant threat of a violent death hanging over them. What’s the point? Aren’t they better off in sunny Hendon?
And talking of the UK. Imagine this? An Israeli comes to the UK ( let’s imagine that it self-identifies as a Christian country where government decisions are influenced by the wishes of the clergy)) and falls in love with a nice Brit girl…..they decide to get married and he is told by the authorities that civil marriage doesn’t exist and that a Christian cannot marry a non-Christian, even if she is not observant…but she likes Christmas and chocolate at Easter:-) So they have to go to Holland to get married. But British law will never recognise their children as Christians, so they will always feel like outsiders. Of course, they could have a religious wedding if he decides to convert to Christianity.
How would you view a society like that? Would you call it a democracy?
If that’s what’s been voted in then yes. Is a country where gays can’t marry a democracy? Don’t worry about the Jews in Israel. They love being Jewish amd living in a Jewish country. I don’t know why you are so concerned when you don’t even live there. Or do you?
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“And talking of the UK. Imagine this? An Israeli comes to the UK ( let’s imagine that it self-identifies as a Christian country where government decisions are influenced by the wishes of the clergy)) and falls in love with a nice Brit girl…..they decide to get married and he is told by the authorities that civil marriage doesn’t exist and that a Christian cannot marry a non-Christian, even if she is not observant…but she likes Christmas and chocolate at Easter:-) So they have to go to Holland to get married. But British law will never recognise their children as Christians, so they will always feel like outsiders. Of course, they could have a religious wedding if he decides to convert to Christianity.”
Roger your example is such rubbish. If the couple in your example marry, then according to the religious rulings of both faiths, the children are of neither faith. If the woman were Jewish and the father Christian, then the children could take their pick of either or neither religion. But wherever they married, whatever their religions, whatever the religion of the children, they would all have the right of dual nationality and therefore the choice of which western liberal democracy they lived in.
But more to the point, this is all rather academic. No mixed faith couple I know of is particularly worried about religion. If it were, they’d not have married in the first place.
‘I don’t know why you are so concerned when you don’t even live there.’
I have to turn that one around Richard. Why haven’t you made aliya? As you know, it is the most positve thing a Jew can do for Israel. You love it, so why not join it?
The rate of emigration from Israel is actually higher than the immigration. So obviously many Jews don’t love living in a Jewsih country. It’s hard to live there for a number of reasons.
Personally, I have a fatal attraction to Israel..been there a few times and really enjoyed it each time. I want to visit again this summer. I have also been to the West Bank….Bethlehem, Hebron and Kiryat Arba where I had a Saturday dinner (can’t remember what you call the closing Sabbath dinner) with one of the first settlers, an artist and his family, who’s been there since ’67. My relationship with Israel was for many years antagonistic in a lazy casual way ( media indoctrination…years alBeebzeera didn’t help), then a phase of irrational infatuation for a few years and right now, an ambivalence that you might have noticed. It’s all karmic I reckon.
Why should I make aliyah? I love britain too.
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Because from a Zionist perspective it is your obligation as a Jew to make aliya to Eretz Israel and get out of the Galut. Otherwise your loyalty to your people is compromised. N’est ce pas?
What on earth are you on about? You’re dreaming.
Richard…..just talk to any national religious Jew in Israel and he will confirm what I have said. They see you as a traitor, a Diaspora Jew choosing to remain in the hostile world of the Goyim and not fulfilling the Covenant. I have spoken to these guys and that’s what they think. The majority of the settlers you defend at those horrendous BDS hate-fest meetings think of you in this way. They want you there, bringing on the redemption and not arguing with Amalek on his territory.
Roger, I think you exaggerate. Anyway it really doesn’t matter either way does it? I’m happy and they’re happy. I defend them whether they like me or not.
I don’t think I’m exaggerating and I never said they didnt like you. They love you as a fellow Jew, but they feel sorry for you because in their eyes you’re missing out on the great process of redeeming the people and the land….bringing on Moshiach. You’re not where the action is…on the front line in Yesha.
But sure, if you’re happy in Blighty battling the BDS bozos, then that’s cool too. I like what you do, otherwise I wouldn’t be subscribed to your blog. But you know what my concerns are.
Thanks.
http://www.israelvideonetwork.com/quran-the-holy-land-belongs-to-israel
Aren’t they better off in sunny Hendon?
here we go …
“…just talk to any national religious Jew in Israel and he will confirm what I have said. They see you as a traitor….”
Okay, I am an Israeli national religious Jew. Nobody I know sees diaspora Jews as traitors. I have no clue who Roger has been talking to. Maybe they were referring specifically to him. Even then I would be forced to take issue with Roger’s friends.
My views on this matter are well known and in his own confused manner, parts of what Roger says in a later contradictory comment (“They see you as a traitor..” “They love you..) are not wholly inaccurate.
I would be happy if every Jew currently living in exile packed his bags today and returned home. I believe their lives and those of their children would be happier and more meaningful in many ways. I say this as someone who has experienced the UK and Israel and enjoyed both. I also believe that from a point of view their own personal Jewish survival (how many Jewish grandchildren who will bear their name) it is the correct move. I care not a jot if someone misunderstands me here, misconstrues my meaning or pretends to think this is racism.
I also think that from a point of view of individual Jewish fulfillment a Jew has many more opportunities to serve his Maker and be one with his nation here. I believe that living in Israel is a crucially important Jewish commandment.
Finally, I think Israel would be strengthened and enriched by her sons and daughters returning home. Today, thank G-d, we are strong and confident, but we’d be even stronger with you and it would be so much more fun too.
Realistically, I know that my vision of all my loved ones returning home tomorrow probably won’t be realized, perhaps not even in my lifetime. In the meantime I celebrate every Jew who does come back and when I contemplate those who don’t my sorrow at their absence becomes momentarily unbearable as I miss them all more than I can articulate. So then I reread Jeremiah, and I am comforted:
Thus says the LORD,
“A voice is heard in Ramah,
Lamentation and bitter weeping.
Rachel is weeping for her children;
She refuses to be comforted for her children,
Because they are no more.”
Thus says the LORD,
“Restrain your voice from weeping
And your eyes from tears;
For your work will be rewarded,” declares the LORD,
“And they will return from the land of the enemy.
“There is hope for your future,” declares the LORD,
“And your children will return to their own territory.
roger presumes to speak for all religious Jews in Israel but has not got a clue as usual. Richard Millett and all other British Jews are not seen by the many hundreds of Religious Jews living in Israel as traitors – far from it. Of course since roger calls the Promise which the People of Israel were given a myth there is not much to discuss with him there. However what he is unable to deny is that the Mandate for Palestine clearly sought to remedy a wrong which had been perpetrated against the Jewish People by denying them through two thousand years of persecution and forced expulsions (solely because they were Jews) of the right to self determination in their own land. Nothing in the Mandate gave any “political” rights to anyone else living within the Mandated territory except to the Jews.
The Diaspora is viewed by most people in Israel as an integral part of the Jewish people. Of course we hope that all Jews will one day realise the dream and according to Rambam (Maimonides) the obligation to settle in the Land of Israel but to say we view Diapora Jews as traitors or even pity them (especially when the average salary in Britain in my profession is ten times that in Israel and a Mazda 3 costs the same here as BMW there!) is a clumsy attempt to drive a wedge between the two communities.
I have written to Jonathan Hoffman thanking him for his efforts on Israel’s behalf and those thanks also go to Richard Millett for maintaining this website and putting himself on the frontline on Israel’s behalf.
”Nothing in the Mandate gave any “political” rights to anyone else living within the Mandated territory except to the Jews”
Well Norman I’ve got news for you buddy. The mandate was morally wrong. Or is it also the word of God? Are you suggesting the mandate had divine status and is thus unchallengeable and beyond reproach?
The Mandate was agreed upon by the Leage of Nations and is entrenched in international law.
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But if it gave no ‘political rights’ to the indigeneous Arabs, but it it has no moral credibility.
The interesting thing here is that just because something is ‘law’ doesn’t make it right. I could also mention Article 9 of the 4th Geneva Convention forbidding the transfer of the civilian population of an occupying power into the territory occupied. This makes Daniel a criminal in the eyes of international law. Even though I recognise the existence of that law, I don’t entirely agree with it because it disregards the negotiated and complex zoning of the West Bank, which makes some (or most?) of the settlements legal.
But the Mandate gave those political rights to them in what was to become Jordan.
The morality of the mandate survives Roger it didn’t grant political rights to either Jew or Arab, only to the mandated authority.
that should be Article 49
International law via the Mandate backs up settlers. Art 49 is irrelevant to this situation.
But as they were already living in Palestine, why should they be obliged to uproot, leave their villages and move to Jordan?
Well, if they were so concerned about living in a Jewish homeland, otherwise there was no compulsion to move and they would still have their religious and civil rights respected.
And here’s me thinking that the mandate gave National rights to only the Jews on condition that the political and legal rights of all other residents were not compromised. Sorry that I can’t quote chapter and verse, but I’m sure someone on here has the time to Google it.
So not be able to argue on legal grounds roger moves to moral grounds. By te way by your warped reading of Article 49 I am also a “criminal” because I too live in Maale Adumim. However like Daniel, I was not transferred here by the Government of Israel as were those German civilians who were transferred into occupied Poland France the Netherlands et al by the Nazis in WWII the prevention of which was the purpose of the Convention, I came here of my own accord.
As Alan Dershowitz writes
”the Jewish community in Palestine was there, as a matter “of right,” ”
Sure thing Norm. And so were the Arabs. Good luck with that!
Thank G-d you have the patience, Norman. I really couldn’t be bothered to do the Article 49 thing again, and you are far more qualified to discuss these matters anyway.
I would only add that the British Mandate, which included the Balfour Declaration, was internationally recognized by everyone, including Turkey – the only country to potentially have a beef with it.
“But if it gave no ‘political rights’ to the indigeneous Arabs, but it it has no moral credibility.” is really codswallop. Perhaps, the American Declaration of Independence should be judged in a similar way. They really were settlers from another continent.
Finally, I would be interested to hear Roger’s response to Almani’s interesting point. Do you mean that all countries in the Middle East should separate religion from state, or just Israel?
No country anywhere should be a theocracy. So yes, all countries in the ME.
Thanks Roger, that’s a clear and simple answer.
Which governmental system do you consider to be most theocratic? Iran, Saudi Arabia, Sudan, Yemen, Afghanistan, United Arab Emirates, Pakistian, Malaysia, Mauritania, the Vatican City or Israel.
This is my order, subject to change:
Saudi Arabia/Yemen/Afghanistan (minus the occupying forces)
Mauritania
Pakistan
Sudan
United Arab Emirates
Malaysia
Israel
The Vatican doesn’t count because all citizens are voluntary members of the clergy, so there is no population on which to impose theocratic dogma.
Thanks Roger,
I believe that we are demonstrating to all those doubters that intelligent dialogue is possible on this blog without abuse or bickering.
I note that Wikipedia defines the Vatican City as an “elective monarchy and elective theocracy”, but it’s not worth laboring that point. I am more surprised that you do not consider Iran as a theocracy, but I’m sure you have your reasons.
Are Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan, Mauritania, Pakistan, Sudan and the United Arab Emirates much more theocratic than Israel or just marginally so in your estimation? For example; you had to grade this quality from 1-10 (10 being the most theocratic and 1 the least), approximately what grades would all these countries receive?
whoops I beg your pardon Daniel…I strangely and perhaps Freudianly omitted Iran. That’s worrying. Iran is clearly joint number 1 with the others.
So here goes with the grading even if it feels like one of my ranking style discussion lessons(I teach English):
Saudi Arabia/Yemen/Afghanistan/Mauritania 10
Iran/Pakistan/Sudan 8
United Arab Emirates 6
Malaysia 5
Israel ….aha now you’ve got me! Let’s say 2 …..3 is pushing it because of last week’s Gay Pride fest in Tel Aviv:-)…….. but 2 because of marriage laws, the halakhic matrilineal lineage rule, rabbinical divorce laws, kashrut dietary laws, state funding of rabbis and yeshivas, the shutdown of public transport on Sabbath and so on.
How would you mark the UK and USA?
This is getting challenging now.
The USA 2 ……(but I’ve never been there and states vary)…Utah, being Mormon, could be a 5 or 6 for example
The UK 0…..a Godless place on the whole with pockets of religious derangement like Bradford and Tower Hamlets that do not represent the indigeneous culture.
What about the total shut down of transport on Christmas Day?
That’s only once a year. And something tells me that will change soon.
I don’t really have a problem with the Sabbath shutdown.in Israel. …..it’s a good tradition. Although as a visitor, it has caused some inconvenience. And I notice Tel Aviv is now choosing to ignore it.
I just threw it in to illustrate the partial theocracy and the impact of religion on the national consciousness.
Hi Roger,
I teach English too and I know which questions you are referring to. I’m currently writing exercises for a reader I recently completed.
I have an unrelated question, maybe you can help. If a small town has four criminals at large; two pick-pockets, two shop-lifters, two rapists, two burglars and two murderers but only sufficient police resources to pursue four criminals, who should they be focusing on?
You mean 10 criminals?
Being of a Judeo-Christian background……I would plump for the 2 murderers and 2 rapists.
If you have a multicultural group, including some Saudi Arabians, a token Iranian, Sicilians and a Mexican then you maybe have a stimulating discussion going on in class there…but also a possible brawl.
Is this a trick question? Are you surreptitiously measuring my intelligence? IQ is not my forte.
Sorry, that should have been “ten criminals”.
And how would you mark Germany with its church tax and religious education (Religionsunterricht) as part of the curriculum in state financed schools, its banning of public revelling including theatre on Good Friday, its insistence that working/shop opening on Sunday is restricted, to name just a few.
Oh and then our labour laws allow at least partly state financed institutions like Kindergartens and hospitals, if they are run by one of the churches, to fire their employees for behaviour (like getting a legal divorce) which everywhere else would legally be considered a private matter of no concern to an employer.
A good Christian society upholding moral values
Maybe one shouldn’t dismiss the Vatican so easily. For somebody so devoted to harsh criticism there may be fertile ground.
When Ratzinger moved into the papal apartments in 2005, he suddenly had to go without a longtime confidante. Ingrid Stampa, the housekeeper who had succeeded his sister, was not permitted to join Ratzinger in his new quarters. She had been disgraced in the Vatican for having once pointed at St. Peter’s Square from the window of the pope’s apartment and waved to the crowd — an unforgivable faux pas.
http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/pope-benedict-focuses-on-legacy-while-ignoring-vatican-power-struggle-a-838830.html
PS: no need to read the piece, it is mostly gossip.
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ingrid_Stampa
I hope they at least granted her citizenship.
The mandate did no more than mandate the authority and mandate the implementation of the BF. The BF specifically rejected the notion of ” the establishment of Palestine as a JNH, as demanded by the Zionists, in favour of ” the establishment of a JNF in Palestine ” It did not specify where in Palestine. The BF did not envisage the creation of a Jewish State and the mandate did not grant political rights to either Jew or Arab, only to the mandated authority.
Daniel you are such a cowardy cowardy custard cry baby.
BOO !!
Yes, I’m getting old and making mistakes.
Tell me Roger. Imagine you heard that the police chief had decided to focus almost all his efforts on catching the shop-lifters and almost zero pursuing the rapist and murderers and you also heard that the pick-pockets happen to be gay (and all the other criminals straight). What conclusions what you reach about that police chief’s attitude to homosexuals?
I’d say he was gay with a pathological prejudice against desperate single-mums, kleptomaniacs and attention seekers.
ha ha ha
Daniel: Which town in the West Bank do you live in? And who do you teach?
I think that’s a little off-topic, but I’d be happy to reply to a private mail:
danielmarks@walla.com
You of course mean Judea and Samaria -it was only the “West Bank” when it was illegally occupied by Jordan between 1948-1967. The name Judea and Samaria appears on all maps prior to 1948 and even some after that date since it is a geographical location not a political one as the Arabs have made it.
I was going to write Judea and Samaria. The West Bank is of course quite ludicrous and as you say, a remnant of the Jordanian occupation.
Which reminds me, how many Samaritans are there living in Samaria?
Okay Roger, I’m guessing you know where this is leading.
As far as I understand you consider Israel to be about as theocratic as the US and much less so than all the Muslim states that we’ve discussed. In your struggle against the evils of theocracies, approximately how much time and resources do you devote to criticizing Israel as opposed to Yemen?
And since that was basically a rhetorical question, as an English teacher who instructs his students in the tools of inference, what might a reasonable reader deduce about your attitude to Jews as opposed to your attitude to all other members of “theocracies” around the world?
Countries like Yemen don’t claim to be fully-fledged secular democracies. In fact, they explicitly declare their loathing for democracy and freedom. So there is no room for hypocrisy.
However, if the likes of Kook, Ovadia Yousef, Baruch Goldstein (Maimonides was his role model), Yigal Amir (authorised by the Talmudic ruling to kill a rodef), Kahane, and many other rabbis, had their way, then you’d be hard pushed to distinguish Israel from Iran.
And what makes you think I don’t have dialogues like this on Muslim blogs and forums?
So, what annoys you most about us 2-3 point theocracies, like Israel and the US, is that we don’t admit it. That upsets you far more than the theocratic practices or regimes like Iran and Saudi Arabia and therefore you’re focusing your efforts and condemnations on us. That seems fair enough.
This dialogue has been extremely enlightening for me and once again I thank you.
Finally, I apologize wholeheartedly at not knowing of your sterling endeavors on those aforementioned Muslim blogs and forums. I wonder if you could direct me to some of them as I’d love to read what you have to say and what, if any, responses you receive.
All the best from one English teacher to another,
Daniel
If you are talking about deduction ” reasonable ” doesn’t come into it. Either the conclusion follow from the premises or they don’t. And either each premis is true or it is false.
And as for inference……well since you would regard yourself as ” reasonable ” there3 is little point in bring the reasonable man into this.
Daniel you describe she with a tattoo on her right tit ( Richard won’t allow me to mention her name) as ” knowledgeable “. What would you say her area of expertise was ?
The point roger is missing is that being Jewish represents both a religious and a national identity unlike Iranians or any of the actual theocracies listed above who may or may not be Muslim. The Jewish People only came into being when it received the Torah since the Torah defines “the Jewish People” as such as much as he would wish it there is no way you can divorce the Jewish People from the Torah since without the latter the former would not have existed. Furthermore it cannot be denied that the Jews’ connection to the Land of Israel is based primarily on a religious affiliation rather than a national one since otherwise we could all now be living in Uganda. This has however become diluted only in modern times when what is called secularism has become more prevalent among Jews living in Israel especially. However it remains the truth that there has never been a period in Jewish History when as many people have studied Torah in the land of Israel as are studying it today. roger’s wishes therefore have little prospect of success even though Israel is no theocracy the reason being:
Hi Rich,
I would be interested to see those “Muslim blogs and forums” too. Perhaps you could put up some hyperlinks.
Sorry, I meant Roger.
roger
as to the Muslim websites you are familiar with, is there one you especially recommend?
I’ve recently looked for some time at a German blog by somebody with a Turkish name, but I wouldn’t know where and how to start there just like I wouldn’t know where to start with a believer in intelligent design or the sun circles the earth by which I want to say it is nothing as simple as the protocols are true.
The Muslim colleagues and friends I had over the decades were all quite sane, thus I’d really appreciate some advice how and where best to get a feel for their thinking.
well folks..I spent sometime posting some links for Muslim blogs on here and the post has gone. Are you there Richard? Did you remove it? I wasn’t sure if you wanted them up on your blog especially the al-Qassam and Hamas sites. But the list of 50 blogs was pretty innocuous I thought.
I haven’t touched anything.
I tried a second time to post the links to Muslim blogs…but once again without success. Most mysterious.
If anybody actually wants to engage in communication with the other side then go to any pro-palestinian page on Facebook. There are literally hundreds of them. Key in ‘Free palestine’ or ‘F**** Israel’ or ‘I hate Israel’ or ‘Third palestinian Intifada’ and join in. I have been removed from the groups I participated in for being an evil Zionist.
In the meantime, let’s see if this goes up:
http://islamineurope.blogspot.ch/
http://windowintopalestine.blogspot.ch/
http://abirkopty.wordpress.com/
you commented on 50 blogs?
I commented on a few…mainly on the facebook groups, objecting to the irrational and hateful demonisation of Israel. And since banned.
oh what a disappointment and I had high hopes that you might prove to be a kind of cicerone into that world – whenever I look at that German-Turkish blog I feel just lost, like in science fiction.
Not one single blog thread where I could via your example get the hang of it?
that’s not what I had hoped for, I had hoped for a cicerone and as such I need a model to follow. For one it would make it easier to avoid getting taken down.
if you want to ‘debate’ and ‘challenge’ , the secret is to rely only on texts. The Koran, the Hadith and the Sira. If you know the theology and the history, you’ve got them by the short and curlies. A bit like with Daniel and Norman.
Hi Roger
Could you post a couple of links to the dialogues you’ve been having on Muslim blogs.
I for one would be very interested.
Hullo Roger,
Which are the names of these blogs and forums.I want to read them also.
Fascinating how Judeo Fascists get all excited at an opportunity to ask questions but curl up into a ball when asked some hard ones.
Gamil your English has transformed itself. Just shows you what a few days off talking to camels can do for one.
http://www.thejc.com/news/israel-news/69248/israel-breach-international-law-over-child-detainees
Daniel you describe she with a tattoo on her right tit ( Richard won’t allow me to mention her name) as ” knowledgeable “. What would you say her area of expertise was ?
Hi Roger,
I suppose that you’re a little bit too busy to post those links right now, which is a pity, as I was looking forward to reading a few before going to bed.
Truthfully, I believe that the revelation that you are no less critical of regimes like the Sudan and Pakistan as you are of Israel had created quite a buzz. It’s gratifying to discover that at least one of our critics is quite consistent in his judgments and does not single Israel out from all others in the way one might expect a bigot or racist to behave.
Anyway, I’m guessing that those old links will be up by the morning and I’ll certainly enjoy reading them.
All the best,
Daniel
Daniel you describe she with a tattoo on her right tit ( Richard won’t allow me to mention her name) as ” knowledgeable “. What would you say her area of expertise was ? ?
And how did your meeting with her go ?
HI Roger,
Would I to be far off the mark were I to hazard a guess that there are no “Muslim blogs and forums” where you have been commenting on theocracies such as Pakistan and the Sudan? Would I be completely out of order if I said that they were a lie as was your claim to have posted links and have them taken down?
Would I be 100 miles from the truth were I to say that even though you openly acknowledge that Israel is a “theocracy” as much as the US is, you save all your wrath for her, ignoring all others?
Would I be wholly wrong in concluding that by your selective condemnation of the only Jewish state in the world for a “crime” that by your own admission many of her neighbors are far more guilty you have chose to single her out and discriminate against her because she is a Jewish state?
Finally, let me ask you whether by your latest pack of lies about those non-existent links being taken down by Richard you have shown yourself to not just be a bigot, but a liar too?
”Oh what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive”
Daniel
To be fair to roger I attempted to post on the Miriam Gargoyle thread on Sunday night without success. I even contacted Richard thinking the site had been hacked and he closed down the thread.
you’re crossing the line into abuse here Daniel. I’m disappointed. The links are above.
Okay, please provide direct link to comments that you have made on Islamic blogs and forums in which you have criticized the theocratic nature of any of the Arab states mentioned above. And just so we don’t get distracted by niceties..pretty please.
Daniel you describe she with a tattoo on her right tit ( Richard won’t allow me to mention her name) as ” knowledgeable “. What would you say her area of expertise was ? ? ?
In 2009 the UK Border Agency conducted an investigation into allegations that Baroness Scotland was employing an illegal immigrant. Baroness Scotland was fined £5,000 for a breach of the Immigration, Asylum and Nationality Act 2006 for failing to retain photocopies of Loloahi Tapui’s passport. Tapui was later jailed for eight months for fraud, possessing a false identity stamp, and overstaying her UK visa.
Baroness Scotland also failed to look into the type of “education” these Palestinian children are receiving. For example Palestinian Educational TV broadcasting children’s poems extolling the killing of Jews.She failed to address the security background in which Israel has to operate – Beilin is not Tottenham or even Toxteth. She further failed to ask the simple question “Where were these children’s parents when their offspring were throwing rocks at soldiers”? There are no prizes for guessing the right answer.
All of that has to do with the IOF and the Israeli govt not complying with the law regarding the treatment of children how exactly ? Don’t tell me I know. Israeli has decided it is an ” exception “, the excuse of habitual law breakers since time immemorial.
Yes, probably all the comments that Roger has put up on all those Islamic blogs and forums criticizing theocratic regimes like Pakistan and Iran have been taken down. Every last one.
That makes sense. They are very thorough – those Muslims.
I only comment on one Islamic site, namely the very excellent anti-Semitic blog of my old mate the inscrutable Arabian gentleman Khalid Amayreh, who has famously compared us to Nazis and called us Kikes, all on the same page. Khalid has never edited my comments, let alone delete them as this link bears eloquent witness:
http://www.xpis.ps/comments.aspx
Therefore, Roger, I’m guessing that you’ve been less than fortunate in having every last one of those comments taken down, but I certainly wouldn’t give up.
http://www.yourlocalguardian.co.uk/news/9587137.Youth_offending_chief_dismissed_after_critical_report/
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/mar/18/justice-10-age-criminal-responsibility
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2086893/Thousands-children-dumped-prisons-failing-youth-justice-systems.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/democracylive/hi/house_of_lords/newsid_9694000/9694002.stm
Yet Baroness Scotland has time to single out Israel.
roger
sorry, but relying on texts by throwing quotes of the original around is for a once upon a time paralegal off limits.
Do you have any idea how much literature there is even on the most simple line in any law book? What do you think our courts are doing all day when passing judgments?
They explain and finetune the language
That’s why I call openly or for myself those throw-arounders of out of context quotes slanderers. And I apply that to international law just as much as I apply it to sacred texts.
If Alan Dershowitz comments international law that is interesting to read, but it is not a verdict. Only a court could do that and since no court exists that does it it is all guess work. Therefore if amateurs do it I have no patience for it.
when are you going to write something substantial and meaningful, rather than this endless stream of pompous pointless waffle?
it seems they didn’t teach you much about reading at your teachers’ seminar.
PS: as opposed to making claims of having created an unlocatable oeuvre of comments.
Hi Roger,
I’ve got to tell you Roger that I’ve been plowing through those blogs, of which you so thoughtfully pasted links, but I’m not finding those comments of yours.
In desperation I’ve even tried putting “roger” into their search windows, but the results have not been promising. I’m not going to lie to you I’ve found nothing.
I wonder if you could post some direct links to your comments.
Why am I not surprised that that he’s proved to be a liar? Must be Zionist media control, we’ve erased all his anti- terrorist comments to make him look bad.
I see Richard. Interesting.
Seen enough anyway.
Daniel: I get the distinct impression that you need me to be an antisemite.
Actually, I need you to be honest with yourself, but I’m hardly optimistic.
In the past 24 hours you’ve shown yourself to be a hypocrite and a phony. Furthermore, contemplating the fact that in all likelihood people of your moral and intellectual stature, such as yourself, are charged with educating British youth makes me quite gratified that I immigrated to Israel when I did.
Print out this conversation Roger, and show it to your students. Don’t hide any of it. I think they have a right to know the type of bigoted ignoramus who is their instructor.
When I read the drivel you come up with Daniel, I understand something important.
You need antisemites. Without them, you would cease to exist. It was antisemitism that encouraged attachment to Jewsih law, assuring the survival of Jewish consciousness and solidarity….the idea of a ‘Jewish people’. It is antisemitism that produces jewsih feeling and is responsible for Jewsih survival. You are the embodiment and evidence of the fact that it is not in spite of but because of antisemitism that a Jewsih specificity has survived. You should be thanking the antisemites for your existence and continuing identity. The non-existence of antisemitism…which you pretend to dream for….would lead to the rapid ending of the so-called ‘eternal’ Jewsih specificity.
The dirtiest trick the Arabs could play on the jews is to make peace wuth them. Think about that if you dare. The cessation of antisemitism threatens Jews.
When I was last in Israel, i noticed a number of Ashkenazi Jews I spoke to reacted positively to any piece of news indicating antisemitism anywhere in the world. They emphasize it and magnify its importance. They reacted negatively to any piece of news indicating that Jews are living a normal life in the Diaspora without being worried about antisemitism.
Many Jews go to israel to flee from the threat of assimilation which could undermine their Jewishness. It’s like fleeing from Scylla to Charybdis. The irony being of course that there is massive assimilation of Jews in Israel itself due to Israelisation and liberalism. Being a Jew means being religiously observant. It is not a Jewish nation as such..it is an Israeli nation.
As I said, if and when antisemitism ends, assimilation will become total.
Wow, what a comment! We need anti-Semites? Tell that to the 6 million dead in the Holocaust. Shocking comment. I am stunned.
Sent from my BlackBerry® wireless device
I think you need to calm down a little Roger, drink a glass of water and count to ten. Then, if I were you I’d reread your last idiotic posting and politely ask Richard to erase it.
I stand by it. You’re not grasping it. Mull it over. Do not misunderstand it.
thanks roger for convincing me that you invented your stories about your activities on anti-Israel-blogs.
You’ve created a fictitious character that imploded on the first check-up.
Let’s hope that when you teach your students about other fictious characters you are less prone to inventing whatever suits your sick phantasy of the moment.
ha ha ha Richard Richard someone said to me yesterday ” Richard Millett is a fascist ” I said ” nah Richard is not a fascist he is a whore “
Make that just one Richard
All this would make sense to you good people if you were able to read the stuff awaiting moderation.( sic )
Well it looks like I have been singled for criticism and moderation that would not apply to any other blogger. This is a clear case of antirichism
See the EUMC working definition.
rich, Consider it a personal BDS.
Happy Nakba!