One can never accuse The Guardian of missing an opportunity to bash Israel and the Palestine Papers is no exception.
I don’t think that for a quick buck the paper should have published the secret Annapolis negotiations between Israel and the Palestinians.
In yesterday’s paper Jonathan Freedland argues that the leaks will “prepare Palestinian public opinion for the painful concessions that peace will, one distant day, require” and are “already having a useful impact in Israel – prompting a clutch of influential figures to realise there is a partner on the Palestinian side.”
We will see but my imminent fear is for the Palestinian chief negotiators Mahmoud Abbas, Saeb Erekat and Abu Ala.
Although they were negotiating with the Israelis virtually the same terms that Yasser Arafat rejected back in 2000 The Guardian thinks it has got a real scoop.
But nothing was concluded. Just like in 2000, after seven years of negotiations, no deal was signed. Arafat was offered virtually the same deal on refugees, Jerusalem and the settlements as Abbas, Erekat and Ala seem to have agreed with Livni and co.
Although possible, it is doubtful they would have dared to sign the deal after the assassinations of President Sadat and Prime Minister Rabin at the hands of their own countrymen. Arafat couldn’t bring himself to do it.
So Freedland might be right that Palestinian public opinion is now prepared but at what personal cost to the Palestinians negotiators? Surely Abbas, Erekat and Ala had the right to decide the strategy of how to prepare the Palestinians for such huge concessions without The Guardian taking the decision out of these men’s hands and putting them at such great risk.
What risk was spelled out loud and clear also in yesterday’s paper by Osama Hamdan of Hamas.
“As an immediate response to these revelations, we in Hamas have begun a series of communications and meetings with Palestinian factions and prominent personalities to discuss practical measures. It is our responsibility to regain the initiative in order to protect our cause and isolate those who have betrayed it.”
We all know what Hamas means by “isolate”.
No Palestinian negotiator would dare step forward now.
And Palestinian academics like Ghada Karmi and Karma Nabulsi continue to pollute the cause of peace by perverting the words of UN resolution 194. So although it will never happen the Palestinians have bought the notion that they are refugees with a right to go to Israel and destroy it by force of numbers.
Naturally, on Monday The Guardian published an article by Karma Nabulsi, who talks of the right of return for “millions of Palestinian refugees”, and on Tuesday one by Karmi, The Right of return matters.
Yet, despite giving platforms to Hamdam, Karmi and Nabulsi Tuesday’s Guardian editorial has the cheek to submit that “A two state solution remains the only show in town.”
What a confused newspaper it is; it talks of a two-state solution while giving platforms to people committed to Israel’s destruction.
Or maybe not so confused. I’ve read some anti-Israel letters before but nothing like this one published yesterday:
“The revelations in detail (Report, 25 January) of the intransigent greed, the escape from decency, of Israeli governments in negotiation with our selected leaders of the Palestinians, serve one purpose among others. They provide a further part of what is now an overwhelming argument for a certain proposition. It is that the Palestinians have a moral right to their terrorism within historic Palestine against neo-Zionism. The latter, neither Zionism nor of course Jewishness, is the taking from the Palestinians of at least their autonomy in the last one-fifth of their historic homeland. Terrorism, as in this case, can as exactly be self-defence, a freedom struggle, martyrdom, the conclusion of an argument based on true humanity, etc.”
If “the Palestinians have a moral right to their terrorism” isn’t incitement to murder then I don’t know what is.
I doubt The Guardian would publish a letter from someone condoning the 7/7 London tube bombings because British troops were in Iraq and Afghanistan at the time. Innocent Israeli men, women and children are fair game though.
Surely this must go to the Press Complaints Commission. It surpasses the boundaries of freedom of speech and is deeply racist.
RichardMillett's Blog 
Well said, Richard
This is the guy who wrote the letter you quoted http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~uctytho/
Seconded.
I am deeply pessimistic about the PCC doing sod all about it, though. Britain has been on this slide into the moral sewer for many years now. I’d love to be proved wrong, but the very most I would expect is some mealy-mouthed boilerplate full of “However … on the other hand … blah blah”.
Even more importantly the writer of that letter, Ted Honderich, is Emeritus Professor of Philosophy at University College London, Editor of the Oxford Companion to Philosophy and Chairman of the Royal Institute of Philosophy
I think that should read Jonathan freedland -I think Michael Freedland was his dad.
somebody over at CiFWatch coined very aptly the term
phoolosophers
anybody who advocates for letting 4.5 million people enter a 7 million country at will, a country that is richer then their current abode, is lobbying for looters giving a free hand. Looting of the kind that was the right of the soldateska in earlier times and included raping and killing. I’d very much doubt though that this looting would stop after 3 days, if anybody doubts it look at the example of the greenhouses in Gaza.
I’m absolutely shocked, not so much that the Guardian would publish the letter, but that this man is a Professor at UCL. Wouldn’t UCL want to know that he is associating them with a call to terrorism? The letter is also on their website.
http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~uctytho/ (Thanks, Chas)
Emeritus Professor of Philosophy eh? Does education….which means making a person whole……produce good men? I think not. Half the attendees of the Wannsee conference in 1942 had PhDs.
On Holocaust remembrance Day here is a welcome initiative.
Combating hate and antisemitism online.
http://israeligirl.typepad.com/my_weblog/2011/01/combating-hate-online.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+israeligirl+%28IsraeliGirl%29
Just had a look at a list of those attending the Wannsee Conference after I read Roger’s point that half had PhDs – 8 out of the 15 attending were titled Dr. Shocking; I never knew that before. It’s a troubling fact and does indeed make you question how far education can go to making you whole
Yaacov Lozowick wrote his thesis on the personnel of the ReichsSicherheitsHauptAmt i.e. Eichmann’s lair and he mentions in his blog ever so often how well educated the middle management there were.
the well-educated supplied the foil for the physical perpetrators.
that’s one of the reasons why I keep nagging that one should empower “little” ones to call out the pompous ones to explain whenever they say that those don’t understand. In my country to this day an uneducated one has a slim chance of getting a decent answer should he/she dare to ask a question unless he/she has prior to asking the question taught herself to ask it using “long” words and complicatedly structured sentences.
the best-liked tactic is to shame/ridicule them for their ignorance if they should dare to poke however clumsily for some explanation.
You, care about Palestinian negotiators??? Why, because they’ve shown themselves capable of giving away everything and the kitchen sink and still get zilch in return? Do you really think that the ‘solution’ proposed by Erekat et al (and still firmly rejected by the Zionist Entity which keeps on settling, evicting and demolishing) would be even remotely acceptable to the Palestinians as a whole (well, minus most of the diaspora, as Erekat also promised)?
Until the power imbalance between Little Satan/Big Satan and the Palestinians/RoW is restored, no amount of negotiations can possibly be equitable. And low and behold, the world is waking up to these facts. The Palestine papers present little news to me (although some of it is more revealing than other stuff) but for any one who hasn’t followed the charade as closely as others, this provides an excellent introduction to ‘the West as an honest broker’…
Journalists who oppose full disclosure shouldn’t call themselves journalists, BTW. Lackeys of the existing wretched order perhaps but nothing more.
The truth is getting out and the genie’s out of the bottle. Like trying to squeeze toothpaste back into the tube: it doesn’t work…
Oh, and anyone still screeching about the ‘Zionist entity’ needs to consult a good psychiatrist about his paranoid schizophrenia.
“Journalists who oppose full disclosure shouldn’t call themselves journalists, BTW”
Sure, and what’s a few people more or less who get murdered as a result, as long as Gert can have his nice blood-thirsty wet dreams, eh?
This coming from a guy who claims ‘there are no Palestinians’. Care to elaborate what to do with these non-existent people? I’m not easily shocked but try not to make it too sinister, will you?
They exist as Arabs. Is that not good enough for you?
You really, really are quite thick, aren’t you, Gert? Hardly surprising that you are ‘inbetween jobs’.
Nobody said that the people don’t exist, only that they are not ‘Palestinians’, a term they themselves have admitted is a pure fabrication designed solely as a weapon in getting rid of Israel (and have refused, loudly, to apply to themselves until it became expedient).
I would have explained to you how it’s a backformation from the mythical country of ‘Palestine’ and a very basic fallacy, but you are far too dumb to have followed the explanation.
Pseudostinians!
Well, Kate, I just call them Arabs.
I do like phoolosophers, though.
Yoni:
By calling me thick you’ve essentially called the overwhelming majority of Zionists, Jews or not, the same. Almost no one believes in your conspiracy theory but it’s almost good in this context that someone like you still does. There isn’t an Israeli historian or historiographer that wouldn’t laugh (well, possibly cry!) at your ‘theory’.
But even if you were (entirely hypothetically) to be entirely correct, you’re still being racist. What you’re saying is that the early Zionist settlers came to the ‘Promised Land’ and then later came some generic Arabs. But if the Zionists settlers were allowed to settle there, why wouldn’t anyone else have that right? After all it wasn’t a ‘country’ (as in ‘Nation State’), so why bar access to anyone? Bar access to Arabs on what grounds? That they were Arab and not Jewish?
Did you know that among older proponents of Apartheid the same folly is still being disseminated too? That the Whites got there first and then Evil Blacks came to steal the land?
Wanna-be-nians
1. Roger has explained in detail, citing chapter and verse, how the Arabs themselves have admitted that every single thing I’ve said is true.
Try to read his post, if your amazing level of illiteracy can stretch that far.
2. Israel is the homeland of the Jews. It has never been the homeland of the Arab nation.
Can your two brain cells stretch far enough to grasp this, thick and illiterate racist?
Sheesh, I have seen slugs with a higher IQ than yours.
.
Gert,
I don’t dispute the identity of the Palestinians but you seem to be glossing over the historical record. While it is in dispute amongst scholars Palestinians themselves have made some interesting remarks such as:
1) “We consider Palestine as part of Arab Syria, as it has never been separated from it at any time. We are connected with it by national, religious, linguistic, natural, economic and geographical bonds.” Cornerstone statement of the First Congress of Muslim-Christian Associations 1919
2) “The Palestinian people does not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel. For our Arab unity. In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of Palestinian people, since Arab national interest demand that we posit the existence of a distinct ‘Palestinian people’ to oppose Zionism”. Zahir Muhse’in 1977
Some other points of note that further erode the Islamic/Palestinian narrative:
1) It was not until the 1800’s that Jews starting emigrating to what is now known as Israel. Not so ironically this coincided with an influx of Arab migration to the area from the surrounding lands. As many scholars noted they did so because of the economy’s the Jews built. In fact prior to Jewish settlement Alphonse de Lamartine visited the area in 1835 and stated “Outside the gates of Jerusalem we saw no living object, heard no living sound….” Mark Twain in 1857 confirmed this stating “A desolation is here that not even imagination can grace with the pomp of life and action. We reached Tabor safely…. We never saw a human being on the whole journey.” Evidence of this today is the massive influx of Muslims to the non Muslim world for a better life. They do so simply because as statistics prove out the Islamic world trails almost the entire world in economic development. If it were not for the luck of geology I shudder to think what it would be like if they did not have all the energy resources they have.
2) The notion of a Palestinian people is a relatively current creation coalescing a bit before WWI. Rashid Khalidi a Palestinian historian even stated the concept of a Palestinian people is “relatively modern.” Further backing this up is the fact you can find almost no historical work on a “Palestinian” people prior to the early 1900’s. Beyond the 1900’s the only loose connection is the term Philistine which is of Latin origin but in of itself is quite a dubious connection to set a historical precedence.
3) While much claim is made to Israel’s denial of Palestinian self rule what is often over looked is the nihilistic outlook Hamas, Hezbollah, and the PLO have towards Israel. All three of the aforementioned organizations have verbiage in their charters that unequivocally calls for the destruction of all of Israel. Sort of hard to deal with a group that says you’re denying them statehood yet if allowed to plans to wipe your state out.
4) Is it not quite odd to continually hear about “Palestinian Refugees” while yet the world is all but deaf to the hundreds of thousands of Jewish refugees evicted from their homes in the Middle East? One would think like the Jewish refugees that accepted the circumstances and resettled elsewhere the Palestinians would have done so as well. The Palestinians did not because their own coreligionists barred them from resettling in other Arab lands. Now why would they do that? Could it be they would lose their proxy in their bid to eliminate the Jewish state? After all the Jewish state is an abomination to Islam because Muhammad declared it is an Islamic Wafq by virtue of conquest and the command that the Arabian Peninsula be cleansed of all non Muslims.
I hope you take this not as an attack but just as a constructive critique on the history of the Palestinian people. I want a two State solution but am at odds with doing so because the Islamic narrative can never truly let this happen. How do you deal with a people who want your destruction and who’s end of days will only come about when a genocide of the Jews occurs? The only solution I see is for Israel to be gone and all Jews out of the area. But, then who’s next Spain, the Balkans, Kashmir, or Moro? The list of Islamic demands is unending and unfortunately their faith leaves them little choice considering the Islamic golden rule is not “love thy neighbor” but that all must submit to Allah! It’s why the history of the Islamic world is awash in war to spread faith and the only way it was stopped was through force. One only needs to read the history of the Ottoman Empire and note how in almost every year of its existence it was engaged in expansionist war to validate the notion of offensive Jihad to spread faith. Knowing this I am at a loss how to deal with a theo political movement that seeks Israel’s destruction and my submission short of force? Any thoughts you have I would greatly appreciate it. All the best to you!
Thx
Bill
thank you Bill
your’s is the first piece ever that I read which blames Islamic ideology that didn’t make me squirm because it made me try to think of just one instance, while “they” were expanding, where they tried to consolidate borders in an this looks nice let’s stop here.
And I don’t mean anything as unequivocal as Hadrian’s wall or the Limes, I’d be content if I could remember something where they said to themselves over here it is enough.
“It was not until the 1800′s that Jews starting emigrating to what is now known as Israel.”
There have always been Jews in Israel. In small numbers, sure. Amazingly, this was as a result of being kicked out by foreign invaders!
Anyway, Gert won’t be able to follow any of this, as he was unable to follow Roger’s post making some of the same points. Or may he has been ignoring those points because they pull the rug from under his entirely racist Jew-hating, ahistorical and mendacious agenda.
I would hate to have a look inside the sewer that passes for his ‘mind’.
Silke,
Thank you for your reply. As I always do I try to look at things from an objective standpoint. When I look at the Israeli Arab conflict it is one I can say with a fair amount of conviction is largely religious in nature. When one side almost entirely bases its reasoning on faith that means critical thought or objective reasoning is thrown to the curb. It is why in my humble opinion the issue will never go away–how do you try to rationalize with one side whom even rejects critical thought in the face of their divine mandates? You can’t and thus the merry go around continues.
When one reads the Quran, a Hadith source(i.e. such as Buhkari), the Sira, and then connects it to the actions of Muslims all over the globe the answers are staring you right in the face. Unfortunately to many awash in PC cultural relativism refuse to see the truth. The truth is Islam unlike any other religion is an ideology that governs the theologocial, political, educational, technological, social, and just about every other aspect of a Muslims life. Unfortunately for the non Muslims this means a perpetual conflict becasue Islam mandates that all must submit to Allah. It need not be soley by conversion but at the very least we the non Muslims need to be governed under Sharia. It is so because we have been prejudged guilty by virtue of continuance of our unbelief. Unbelief to a Muslim is the world’s greatest evil and they are mandated never to accept it but to continually strive(Jihad) to eradicate it. And, yes offensive force is an option. The only reason you do not see offensive force is the simple fact they lack the means to do so.
In summary the problem is partly ours but more so on the Islamic side. Unfortunately for us the presrciptive inviolate nature of faith only lets them see one side of the arguement their own. How do you ever resolve a conflict in which the other side is largely incapable of seeing they are part of the problem (not so ironically this sums the notion of Islamophobia–Muslims bleating about human rights despite the fact as noted by numerous human rights groups they are the world’s leading abuser of human and religious rights.) You can’t and it is why the only true Solution for Islam is that Israel must go! I am sure the Palestinians will accept a two state solution but only in the context of a Hudna(temporary Islamic Truce) because the mandate to reclaim land once conquered by Islam will always remain. It truly does not matter even if it is the ancestral home of the Jews—what we/Jews think simply does not matter only what Islam says. Frustrating beyond belief but something everyone needs to wake up to.
thx
Bill
Yoni ,
My apologies about my confusing post regarding the immigration of Jews to their ancestral homeland. I should have been more clear but I think you caught on that my point was based on the assumption Jews have always lived in the area. In the future I should qualify statements like that in an effort not to confuse.
As for Gert I would love for him to respond but what I have found posting similiar type posts is most don’t. If they do it often devolves into some kind of mud slinging with the tag of Islamophobe or Zionist(this is quite funny because I am a Christian albeit a one who would defend Israel with his life if need be!) Regardless I do hope Gert does reply–nothing better than a good old nasty debate!
Thx
Bill
No problem, Bill – I just wanted to dot that last i.
You certainly have grasped the entirely inflexible nature of Islam, and the fact that it isn’t a religion in the normal sense but a totalitarian political system actively seeking world domination.
sounds like really good news to me !!!
(I haven’t yet lost the hope that Brits will again be the first – except for Israel – to find their footing)
from the corner where balancing imbalances goes on and never forget what happened to Constantinople when it was “their” turn to balance the imbalances.
NatWest might not be explaining their decision but the commercial implications of their association with Press TV are obvious to any intelligent observer. The station has a long track record in producing agitprop for the Iranian state, including the lie that Neda Soltan’s murder by the regime was a hoax.
That NatWest would not want to associate itself and its business with propagandists for a murderous theocracy is a welcome development.
http://standpointmag.co.uk/node/3714
Even if they’re Arabs, does that affect their rights, in your opinion? Because that’s what you’re implying. No point in bringing up the ‘fakestinians’ thingy otherwise. You see Roger, the ‘fakestinians’, ‘paleostinians’, ‘falsestinians’, ‘psychostinians’ etc labels were once sooooo en vogue in the open sewers of the Ultra Conservative American blogosphere but of late talk like that seems to have subsided a bit. Trust a Neanderthal like you to bring it up again…
Had the local population around the time European Zionists started to arrive in Palestine been a hotchpotch of Belgians, Chinese, Americans, jews, Muslims and what have you, their rights would not have been predicated on whether they belonged to this group, that group or t’other group. It matters not one iota. Try and get it through your thick skull…
Gert screeching about thick skulls … LOL, it’s just too, too funny for words.
As I said, you are far too stupid to follow the argument.
Here it is in brief, anyway:
1. They claim that they are ‘THE’ indigenous nation (which is a lie).
2. They claim that ‘THEIR’ country is called ‘Palestine’ (which is a lie).
3. Ergo, they are ‘Palestinians’ …
4. … which in a circular argument, therefore a fallacy, ‘proves’ that they are ‘THE’ indigenous nation of ‘THEIR’ country, Palestine.
5. Corollary:
The Jews are not indigenous, they are ‘white European colonists’ (Do I need to explain even to an idiot like you what a big lie this is? Probably …) who have no historical rights in the mythical ‘Palestine’.
Now go and spend 50 years trying to follow this.
I won’t hold my breath, but I hope you do.
first I can’t see why I am to deny myself the pleasure of name-calling when dealing with people who talk of zionist entities who need to be wiped off the map and other stuff.
Gert and his buddies may be so well-behaved that they’d never resort to name-calling but as yet I have to witness at least Gert improving his ways in that direction the tiniest little bit.
but other than that I must confess that I experience quite strong motherly feelings towards Gert. Something must have happened to him. He reads a lot more confused than I remember him last time around. Has he managed to establish contacts with Pyroenthusiasts and they have taught him a lesson about the behaviour of crocodiles? Has he maybe finally lost control of his bladder and is now leaking all over himself constantly, even when he isn’t laughing?
If any neighbour of him in Bridlington should read this, please check on him. And at least wipe him clean a bit. I am really worried.
Whether or not they claim to be the indigenous nation or not is completely neither here nor there. The fact is that about 750,000 people who lived there legally at that time were expelled to make room for people who weren’t indigenous either, at least not by that definition. It matters not one iota how long they’d lived there, what religion they practiced or what the colour of their skin was. If you get chucked out from where you live, you feel a tad pissed off by that.
Re your accusation of fabricated nationalism is really rich too: ALL nationalisms are synthetic fabrications. Israeli nationalism is not only no exception, it goes to extremes to invent itself and in a very cartoonish way too.
In reality the Palestinians were rather late in developing a formal nationalism, hell bent as they were in their early years to secure nothing more than their right to return, a right upon which they still insist today and which will be denied to them: a lasting injustice as testimony to the lasting legacy of Zionism…
“Israeli nationalism is not only no exception, it goes to extremes to invent itself and in a very cartoonish way too”
The Jews were a nation about 15 centuries before your ancestors stopped aspiring to be swineherds as the acme of existence, turdo.
“The fact is that about 750,000 people who lived there legally at that time were expelled”
They tried to murder all the Jews. They lost. Tough.
“to make room for people who weren’t indigenous either”
You can screech as much as you like, turdo: the Jews are indigenous to Israel.
Millett must be so pleased that from the last vestiges of ‘denial Zionism’ at least three survivors (Yoni, Woger and Kate D) have found their way to his blog. Too racist for the Brown Sauce (Harry’s Place)? No problem, migrate to Millett’s, no questions asked!
You should know all about the colour brown, you disgusting brown-shirt turd.
Silke:
Zionist Entity? Try and develop a little sense of humour, you piece of Nazi offspring.
ooooh, you are a nasty and angry piece of work, Gert. As for “expelled” you have been reading too much Ghada Karmi and Ilan Pappe.
You see once you start a war and lose it you can’t come back afterwards and ask to be put back in the same position to have another try all over again. If the Palestinians had accepted partition they would have had 45% instead of the 22% on offer. Yes, hindsight is a great thing but they took the gamble in 1948 and lost and therefore they have only themselves to blame.
Richard:
… is really one of the most childish things you’ve come up with so far. I think the company of the numbskulls you keep here is beginning to rub off.
BTW, what you say in private and in public appear to be two very different things. You are one of the most hypocritical people I’ve ever come across on the Net. Full also of Faux Righteousness only Conservatives can conjure up.
“is really one of the most childish things you’ve come up with so far”
Translation: “Being functionally illiterate, I have no idea what you are saying, so I won’t even attempt to counter it”.
“Full also of Faux Righteousness only Conservatives can conjure up”
Oooh, clever. The unemployable one can spell ‘Conservatives’. What a shame he has no clue what it means. Or which words you capitalise in a sentence.
The left has been spewing faux righteousness for decades. For example, its so-called ‘anti-racism’ is often profoundly racist.
“piece of Nazi offspring”
And then this turd screeches about ‘racism’.
Yoni
whenever Gert gets into off-springiness I am reminded that in another thread he had a most peculiar and to me never met before way of wording the suffering? of his ancestors under German-WW2-occupation.
All the Dutch and Belgians I had the privilege to have as colleagues in times past used to be very explicit and leave no doubt on what happened to their families while Gert restricted himself to elegantly worded generalities. Even though I asked him again and again he always turned himself into a pudding refusing to be nailed against the wall by resorting to screaming abuses.
which made me curiouser and curiouser every time it happened … i.e. it read like a version of “me thinks the guy protests too much”.
and then of course there was King Leopold …
Anyway, nite nite…
this is really wearisome
but one thing one must give Gert credit for, he is a fast albeit not accomplished liar, lying faster than one can debunk the stuff, but that is what he has in common with all of the members of the crowd who salivate heavily at the idea of the possibility that Jewish blood may be spilt.
the number he claims were “chucked out” is way way way off
there is no such thing as an indigenous nation
he is so fair to never even mention “chucked out” Jews
and whichever name Palestinians chose to give themselves it always bears witness to the fact that their Arab brothers wash their hands of them so much and that they stopped at that when they were feeling benign. Now they have invented a new name for themselves and it seems not even their brothers in Chile want them anywhere nearby.
But Israel is supposed to take them – to think along those lines is clear proof of a kind of trufferism.
Jews settled on land they bought, which was given to them by the “world” and which they conquered in a war not of their chosing. All very very traditionally as honest accepted ways …
BTW I wonder whether Gert has read Mark Twain on King Leopold? Maybe he isn’t aware that that whitey guy is dead by now.
I am glad to notice, Gert is getting back in shape
stopped the leaking, got himself cleaned up, forgot about his Belgian ancestry
Gert you are such a ridiculous nullity that it even isn’t fun any longer to tease you
for those who still like to supply him with occupational fun, here is some more information about our in 4 languages fluent, self proclaimed computer geek and chemist in between job existence – I hear there’ll be NHS-cuts coming. I sincerely hope they’ll hurt you.
For Gert, but it looks like he’s crawled off to his cave for the night.
Back on March 31, 1977, the Dutch newspaper “Trouw” published an interview it had with Palestine Liberation Organization executive committee member Zahir Muhsein. This is what he had to say:
“The Palestinian people does not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct ‘Palestinian people’ to oppose Zionism.
For tactical reasons, Jordan, which is a sovereign state with defined borders, cannot raise claims to Haifa and Jaffa, while as a Palestinian, I can undoubtedly demand Haifa, Jaffa, Beer-Sheva and Jerusalem. However, the moment we reclaim our right to all of Palestine, we will not wait even a minute to unite Palestine and Jordan.”
and here is a link to somebody with a reputation for reliability
http://www.danielpipes.org/comments/18157
I find it important to demonstrate to Gert how decent people operate because on the thread before this one he is still dodging Daniel’s question to provide proof for quite an accusation he made.
in short our cute little darling Gert at his best
Prior to the establishment of the State of Israel, if one said “Palestinian” one meant “Palestinian Jew.” My parents were devoted fundraisers for Israel, and belonged to a local fundraising committee associated with both the Jewish National Fund (JNF) and the Joint Palestine Appeal (JPA). It wasn’t until the 1970s that the committee changed its name from JNF/JPA to JNF/JIA (Joint Israel Appeal).
Apparently the group is now called the United Jewish Israel Appeal http://www.dango.bham.ac.uk/record_details.asp?id=2974&recordType=ngo
I’ve just remembered that in Leon Uris’s novel Exodus, which was published in the late 1950s, there were several times in which the phrase “the Palestinian” referred to one character or another in the book, and the character being referred to would always be Jewish. When Uris referred to Arab residents of the area, he used the word “Arab” not “Palestinian.”
And, by the way, that Abba Eban quote is, “The Arabs [not ‘the Palestinians’] never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity.”
Sure, cba. Under the Mandate, the Arabs objected to being called ‘Palestinians’.
Roger is w/o a shimmer of doubt an ultraconservative American, probably an enthusiastic Islamophobe, because I did indeed fully expect the ‘Trouw’ quote to march with ill-deserved confidence in the direction of this conversation (I’m surprised actually that he hasn’t brought up Mark Twain yet, that would rather complete the picture).
Whatever you think of the ‘ethnicity’ of the Palestinians (‘ethnicity’ in general is something only racists obsess about), it matters indeed not one iota. I live in Britain legally but without citizenship. Do you really believe than any eviction order based on the grounds that I’m ‘not a true Briton’ would impress me in the slightest?
The one difference between ‘independence’ movements in general and Zionism in particular, is that in most cases the secessionists at least had the courtesy of living in the area they wanted to claim for themselves at the time they made the claim: if you’re going to make any claims based on ethnicity or indigenousness, then at least have the honesty to see that those who lived in the area then known as Palestine, including the Jewish minority there, have theoretically a greater claim to that land than the European settlers, who were about as indigenous to Palestine as I am to New York.
That moronic term ‘Islamophobe’ brands you immediately as someone with an IQ below room temperature, pee-pee.
“European settlers”
Our local moron thinks that Iraq, Yemen, Syria and Morocco are in Europe. Priceless.
GertieBaby
when will you understand that there is no greater honour for me than to be insulted by a Flemish (prone to pimples?) of all people in this way.
what did your forebears suffer from precisely while being occupied by mine. Please be specific. I am sure we are all interested to know.
As regards ‘angry and nasty’, Richard you need to look no further than the title of your own post. We all know that you’re not keen on ‘lefties’ and that in your ideal world we’d all be reading the Judaic equivalent of Der Sturmer but implying (I’m putting that rather euphemistically) that The Guardian is ‘inciting to murder’ would be like me claiming that your blog is personally responsible for Palestinian suffering because it, and it’s increasingly imbecilic adherents, want only one thing and that’s more of the same ‘status quo’ (something that’s bad for both sides).
In reality both you and The Guardian are expressing opinions: is that still allowed in Millettville?
so if someone wishes to incite to murder it is only expressing an opinion is it? If someone put on this blog a statement saying killing Palestinian civilians is fine, which is in effect what that letter said about Israelis, then i would delete it.
There is no ‘in effect’ about it. That’s exactly what it said about Jews. No wonder the unemployable chemist is defending it.
Nobody is inciting to murder. Your charge is so serious I think it might be classed as libel or slander, at least borderline. I never had you down as a real blowhard but the company you keep stinks and I can definitely start to smell it on you: sleep with dogs, get flees.
so to suggest arabs to the ovens is bad but israelis to be blown up in discos is ok in gertworld?
Your capacity to turn the past suffering of others (who suffered at the hands of possibly the cruellest in all of modern times – your ancestors) remains baffling and really should speak volumes to anyone who wishes to touch you even with a barge pole.
to turn on. My bad.
No, just thick.
since nobody is reading his own miserable cut and paste blog Gert takes over here once he is sure all his opponents have retreated for Sabbath
what an abymal coward that pee-pee one is.
LOL. I love it.
I am not turning I am only asking, eager to hear your story
– wondering why you are, differing in that from all other victims I ever met, are so unforthcoming with specifics.
– since you are prone to lying, obfuscating and making false accusations, not to mention other of your shenanigans I find the question perfectly justified.
Nazigrrrl:
The story of anyone’s suffering should only be told to those who can be trusted, bar in some notably exceptional cases. If there existed the strongest of antonyms to ‘trustworthiness’ I wouldn’t apply it to you because it wouldn’t be strong enough.
oh and taking about body apertures, rest assured that none of your ilk ever found me in a welcoming mood
Why am i hypocritical, Gert? Also where is that great study you promised to put up on your blog on Israel’s recent shootings of many unarmed civilians in Gaza?
How old are you, Richard? Because there seem genuinely no end to your childishness of late. With regards to the shootings in Gaza buffer zone, let me just say this: good things come to those who wait. And perhaps also: careful what you wish for. It’s a work in progress albeit not made for you: you will, as always point blank deny everything.
Although it was rather funny when on Press TV you managed to deny the shootings while in the same breath blame Hamas for any such shootings that might have occurred.
The last bit of respect I still had for you has now disappeared. Your blog has become a shining example of what kind of drecks are attracted to modern day Zionism: racists and Nazi offspring. It needn’t have been that way but you let it happen. It could have been a Carlsberg, turned out to be stinking mud…
as you well know i didn’t deny the shootings, i just hadn’t seen evidence of them, which 6 weeks ago you promised to supply. why so long?
The danger to the negotiators is bad, but there are greater dangers out there:
http://denryblog.wordpress.com/2011/01/28/falklands/
good post. i agree. what is happening is all very unsettling. is there a comment section on your blog?
Sorry – comments are switched off; a bit selfish, but I didn’t want to have to deal with the torrent of hate and abuse that’s out there, as this post of yours illustrates!
“No-one deserves unseating more than the corrupt and autocratic rulers of the Arab world”
What, not even the genocidal Iranian junta?
Forget about The Palestine Papers: Bibi’s pal and greatest arse licker to the Zionist cause in the Arab world is about to get his throne pushed out from under him. Must be a tad worrying for Tel Awashington, to lose such a loyal vassal…
Why don’t you just block him Richard? He’s a nasty hateful troll who is on here merely to gratuitously bait others.
i could do a Macy Gray and ask people if Gert should be banned. But apart fom his horrendous rudeness and direct racist comments (even though he is so concerned about racism in Israel, of course) it is irresistible to see what pours off his tongue because, let’s face it, Gert’s mentality is, sadly, ubiquitous among today’s far left proponents.
What’s a Macy Gray?
she recently asked her friends on facebook whether she should defy the boycott and play her concerts in Israel or stay away. she has decided to go, apparently.
Thanks.
As to the illiterate chemist, he has passed his sale by date. He has no entertainment value any more. And it’s a bit like shooting fish in a barrel, or perhaps mocking the afflicted. Plus, of course, his racism and general vileness. I vote to boot him out, fwiw.
I agree that the Guardian should not have published these. The aim for all moderates should be that Israel and Abbas reach an agreement that can isolate Hamas. Showing up Israeli intransigence is useful but the cost of doing it in this way I fear is too high (yes Arafat should have signed deal years back but that does not make rejecting other offers right now). What do you make of the idea of transferring citizens from Israel to Palestine? Doesn’t seem right to me and what would it achieve? What will be outcome of Egyptian disturbances for Israel?
There would be no transfer. No one would be forced to move. There might be a redrawing of boundaries which would place some Israeli Arabs in Palestine, instead of Israel, but that is all up for negotiation and whether those affected would agree to it. It is telling that, it seems, they would not agree to it. However much they say they sympathise with their Palestinian brothers and sisters they don’t apparently want to live with them.
As for the effect of Egypt on Israel I think that that is something we are all fathoming out at the moment. Depends if there is an Islamist takeover of Egypt as happened in Iran in 1979. Not only would Israel be worried, so would the Egyptian Christians and secularists as well as you and me living in the UK. I’d like to say that Egyptian Jews should be worried also, but there aren’t any anymore.
But i’m glad you agree The Guardian should not have published these. There was no public interest whatsoever, just prurience and a quick buck to make.
I’ll disagree on their motive – I think it was about showing Israel up more than making a buck (although that is no doubt an upside) and there is a public interest – its just there is a larger one in maintaining the moderates of Palestine.
yes, i agree.
Making a buck and having a nasty go at the spawn of satan Israel – win-win, as far as that vile rag is concerned.
“Showing up Israeli intransigence is useful”
Except that there is no ‘Israeli intransigence’. Only those utterly ignorant of history – and assorted antisemites – think that Israel should play nice and commit suicide to please the gallery.
I registered a complaint about Honderich’s vile letter to the PCC. I await some action from them but I am not exactly holding my breath.
Is there a way for us to complain about this person to UCL?
The problem with UCL is that he is an emeritus professor. It is not clear he still teaches there, though the fact he has a website under their auspices suggests he does.
First steps; find out if he still teaches. If he does then consult the codes of conduct governing staff and find out how he has breached them.
Then I would say a complaint to the Vice Chancellor & head of department. If this doesn’t get the ball rolling then you’d probably need a current (or maybe former student) to take things further.
Similar action would need to be taken with any other institution he teaches at.
Also consult the rules and regulations of the Royal Institute of Philosophy; he may have breached them. And then perhaps forward a copy of his letter to all the members of the Royal Philosophical Society and ask if they are happy he is their Chairman.
There is the separate matter of his website, featuring the letter, hosted by UCL. The UCL website will have its own code of conduct and he may have breached that.
UCL Conduct:
Click to access code-of-conduct.pdf
Academic Manual
http://www.ucl.ac.uk/academic-manual/
UCL HR:
http://www.ucl.ac.uk/hr/a_to_z/
UCL Website disclaimer:
http://www.ucl.ac.uk/disclaimer/
As Yoni and Gert pause before continuing their fascinating debate as to who is more “thick” and who can think of more rude things to say, we might take a moment to examine the couple.
Though seemingly so different, they are in many ways Siamese twins, two sides of the same grubby coin. On the one hand we have an ignorant armchair Zionist and on the other an ignorant armchair anti-Zionist, both, mercifully for all concerned, far away from the real battleground. Both have dead end jobs and little social standing, forever convincing themselves of their own worth by slagging off the other, and thus fighting the good vicarious fight.
If I had to choose between them, which thankfully I don’t, it would be the barmy Belgian blogger from Bridlington any day. He was a lonely, friendless child who attracted the attention of others by annoying the cool guys and getting slapped around. Today he performs a similar role on this excellent blog and with everyone who curses him, consoles himself that at least they know he’s here, “I am despised, therefore I am!” Before the reader judges Gert, he would do well to remember that Bridlington on Sea can be a sad and desolate place when you have no real occupation and the Gala Bingo Halls have yet to open.
How wonderful to escape into a world of alternate reality where you can google for nasty anti-Israel articles and then cut and paste them onto yours and other people’s blogs. Suddenly there are ““increasing incidencents” of Israelis screaming “Arabs to the ovens!” and settlers in occupied Jaffa eating humus, or settlers in occupied Humus eating Jaffas – who cares? The Zionists hate you, so you must be doing some good. Suddenly your cheerless and irrelevant life has significance and meaning. Suddenly you’re a player!
For all these reasons and many more I have developed an undeniable affection for Gert, and strongly urge Richard not to ban him from this blog. Affection born of pity you might say – but affection nonetheless. Neither Gert nor Yoni must go because they make everyone else look so smart. The two likely lads let us feel cool and witty on our worst days and most tired nights.
Thanks to the dynamic duo, the latter day Laurel and Hardy, we can all write the biggest load of drivel and still be assured that there are, and will always be, a couple of fools here worse than us.
What a monumental wanker you are. I am not in the least surprised that you were considered a cad at Hasmo: you are a compulsive liar, a piece of pond scum who can’t write anything without lying.
Cool? Witty? You? LOL. Do see a psychiatrist about your delusions, pathetic wanker.
And as to ignorance: you continue to spew you moronic drivel about me, in complete ignorance of who I am or what I do. Truly, only a sad and ignorant moron like you could call me ‘ignorant’.
Above are two short, though beautifully crafted, posts ably illustrating my thesis. The reader will note that literary construction took their author but a single hour. Given another hour he should come up with some more rude words.
Gert, on the other hand, a more seasoned blogger, wisely bides his time as he forever scans the net still searching for the:
“increasing incidencents of Israelis calling for ‘Arabs to the ovens”
The moronic, ignorant tosser Marks thinks that I am on this blog 24/7 and start writing a response as soon as he has posted his illiterate drivel. Hence his spectacularly stupid reference to “a single hour”.
“Predicting the future is easy. It’s trying to figure out what’s going on now that’s hard.”
Nothing, if not predictable. Have a great week, and thanks for everything!
And you can’t even figure out where you have misplaced your brain. If you ever had any, which seems unlikely. I have seen cockroaches with a higher IQ than yours, and rabid dogs with a more sociable personality.
Bill and Yoni
just an addition:
Tom Holland claims in “Millenium” that at the time Islam ruled as much by the ledger as by the sword i.e. in Sicily they had about 1/3 muslims i.e. the ones who’d fight jihad financed by the other 2/3 through their taxes
So if back then they were smart enough to figure out that all out conversion to the privilege of being fidel was not unambiguously desirable to further jihad.
Now this reminds me that there was another ideology/party that made access to its ranks difficult from time to time …
Right now Islam at least around where I live acts very welcoming so all who convert now should be reminded that the opportunity to do so so easily may one day go out of fashion i.e. when they’ll have reached supremacy on earth.
“Now this reminds me that there was another ideology/party that made access to its ranks difficult from time to time”
Not sure what this means – are you talking about Judaism?
And what is this “another ideology” assertion all about? Becoming a Muslim is easier than falling off a log. It takes about 10 minutes, flat.
the NSDAP restricted accession every now and then, I think at times even for extended periods of time.
Today it is easy to become a Muslim but there have been long periods in their history where they found it preferable to milk the sheep through extra taxes than to put them to the sword.