Plonski, Pappe, Chalcraft, Weisfeld, Reider, Jones having a "discussion" at SOAS.
When I did my Masters at the School of Oriental and African Studies the Israel Society there was a genuine counter-balance to the anti-Israel propaganda being disseminated by the SOAS Palestine Society. Students of all political persuasions could question Israeli politicians and diplomats and watch superb Israeli films like Beaufort.
Now, sadly, the SOAS Israel Society has been taken over by anti-Zionist activists Sharri Plonski and Dimi Reider (of the anti-Zionist+972 Magazine website) who desire so-called Palestinian refugees (including many who were never born there but, what the hell, let’s call them “refugees” anyway) to be allowed into Israel and destroy its Jewish sovereignty. On Monday they held the event Is BDS Working?
Their Facebook page states:
“The global campaign for boycott, divestment and sanctions against Israel almost always sparks polarized discussion on its legitimacy and desirability, but the nuanced question of its effect on the ground is often lost in the debate. Join our panel discussion as we explore the effectiveness of BDS and its stated goals: End of occupation, right of return, and equality for the Palestinian citizens of Israel.”
Plonski said she looked forward to a “discussion”, but warned (clip 1) that if there were any untoward interruptions she would call security (and you wouldn’t want to upset the dictatorial Plonski). Each speaker then slammed Israel after which they got asked compliant questions by a compliant audience. But there was no “discussion”.
The evening reached its Orwellian zenith when the panel was criticised for the lack of a Palestinian presence. Plonski agreed and said she would work hard to have one next time. But what about the Israeli government’s views, one might have asked? I doubt Plonski will be working too hard to have those aired on one of her “discussion” panels.
Where was the “discussion” in allowing an unchallenged Ilan Pappe to state:
“What do you do about a rogue state like Israel? How do you treat it? What is the right policy towards a country, a state, that violates systematically all the United Nations’ resolutions, that violates systematically and abuses civil and human rights? This is now the conversation, this is why all these pro-Zionist Jewish communites are so fidgety, this is why all the Israeli Embassies have nightly meetings ‘what do we do?’, not changing Israeli immoral behaviour, ‘how do we now justify Israeli immoral behaviour?'”
And in allowing him to demean what blacks went through in apartheid South Africa when he said:
“South Africa had the right to exist. And Israel has the right to exist. Apartheid had no right to exist. Therefore, we all worked for the change of regime in South Africa. The kind of regime Israel maintains in the occupied territories, the kind of regime it maintains towards its Palestinian minority in Israel and the kind of policies it pursies against Palestinian refugees has no right to exist. And I think that is what the (bds) campaign is all about…We are talking about a change of regime and we don’t even suggest bombing the Israelis to change the regime as we would have if it had been an Arab country.”
Where was the discussion in allowing Dr John Chalcraft to make the ridiculous assertion that BDS was responsible for loss of business amounting to $7bn? (I would be surprised if it were even $7)
Chalcraft thinks that organisations that are usually unconcerned about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict when conducting business with Israel will now start to be concerned about the prospect of “nasty, grungy looking campaigners” (clip 5) showing up on their doorsteps with pictures of murdered Palestinian babies (incidentally, see here for Daniel Hochhauser’s total demolition of Chalcraft’s arguments when they debated This House Believes in an Academic Boycott of Israel).
Chalcraft denied BDS was racist by simply stating:
“Is there any other state in the world that is, right now, engaged in a project which has all sorts of affinities with nineteenth century settler colonialism?”
But we know that just like Pappe, Plonski and Reider, for Chalcraft the real problem is not “the occupation”, but Jewish Nationalism.
Chalcraft spoke of:
“interesting rifts in both Israeli society and academia that are opening up right now that BDS can exploit, because if you have a non-violent strategy of resistance then you do have to divide, in this case, Zionism”.
He spoke of rifts between the settlers and the IDF, between the segregationist movements on the buses and the more liberal Zionists and also between Liberal Zionists in America, like Thomas Friedman, and other “Newt Gingrich-style-Adelson-casino-owning movements in the United States”.
Chalcraft’s mention of Sheldon Adelson with its strong implication of Jewish money and power (see CiFWatch for analysis on why this can be considered anti-Semitism) was a theme taken up by Dr Lee Jones of Queen Mary’s College. Jones was there as a sort of constructive critic of the BDS movement. He thought that BDS on its own wouldn’t succeed without some bigger overall strategy, so he gave advice:
“Attacking the idea that you must not ever criticise Israel in the United States, otherwise you are some kind of disloyal Jew, for example. That does need to be challenged in the US and opening up different options for US foreign policy could be a start…which then forces the government into changes. So that’s the kind of dynamic that I’m talking about.” (clip 4)
Hannah Weisfeld’s (from “pro-Israel” Yachad) main arguments were that Israel has a right to exist, that BDS has had little impact on Israel and that BDS wouldn’t work anyway as it keeps Israelis on the defensive. She didn’t think BDS was anti-Semitic, but she described what Israel was doing beyond the Green Line as “criminal”.
Weisfeld just wants Israel to end “the occupation”, even if that is achieved by BDS. But because she also doesn’t think BDS will succeed she also gave some advice to the BDS movement (clip 3):
“A unified Palestinan strategy is hugely important and you are much better placed than me to suggest whether BDS is having that impact on Palestinian society. I come from the perspective of what I think is going to end the occupation…I don’t think the BDS movement is racist. I think there are elements in it that are questionable and I think there are parts of its aims that are highly questionable in terms of whether you think Israel has a right to exist or not. I don’t think people who engage in BDS engage in it because they are anti-Semites.”
and:
“I think we would be having a very different conversation in this room if the BDS movement was about a targeted (settlement) boycott. I am not saying that I would necessarily support it, but I think the entire debate would be different, because I think the position would be a position that does not put people on the defensive because it recognises the legitimacy of the other side to exist and I think that the level of criminality that exists inside the Green Line, over the Green Line is not distinguished…is exactly the reason BDS will not succeed in ending the occupation.”
How disappointing that Weisfeld thinks that neither singling out the one country that just happens to be Jewish for a boycott nor the desire of BDS to end Israel’s Jewish sovereignty are racist. And neither does she totally dismiss the possibility of herself supporting a targeted boycott of Israelis who live on the West Bank.
On top of all this Weisfeld never articulated what she expected to happen after any such unilateral settlement withdrawal by Israel. What happens if rockets fired from the West Bank then start hitting Tel Aviv, for example?
And how has the Israel Society at SOAS been hijacked like this? You would have thought that university societies existed to reflect their subject matter in a positive light. However, students at SOAS are now being fed horrendous lies about Israel not only by the SOAS Palestine Society but now by the SOAS Israel Society as well.
Clips:
1. Plonski introducing event:
2. Weisfeld talks about Yachad and adresses BDS:
3. Pappe speaks of Israel’s “criminality” as an admiring Plonski watches on and Weisfeld ponders a targeted settlement boycott:
4. Dr Lee Jones of QMC on “the Jews”:
5. Chalcraft on anti-Israel activism:
6. Dimi Reider on the cultural and academic boycott:
RichardMillett's Blog 
I have been invited to be on a Panel at SOAS Palestine society.
The other panellists: Melanie Phillips, Alan Dershowitz and Douglas Murray.
I’m surprised by the panellists invited by SOAS Palestine Society. They are all pro-Israel heavyweights who are hardly going to advocate for the dreamed-for Judenfrei Palestine. So has the Palestine society been hijacked too?
I assume he was being sarcy?
That would be a shame. It’s a great panel……but maybe throw in someone like Ben White for some balance.
Lol Jonathan
Bravo . Says it all in 4 lines .
Thanks for posting this Richard, I wasn’t able to make it. We should really start paying you for your services 😉
I think Yachad is sometimes unfairly maligned. I don’t agree with everything it says but some of the opposition to it is overly personal/vitroilc and also sometimes a case of ‘shooting the messenger’.
Interesting post as always Richard!
There is only one kind of opposition to those who don’t understand the score as Yachad and the like don’t and that’s to oppose just as Richard does. He knows what he is talking about – no half measures here, no fences to prop up the butt – either with or against. BDS is a vile propagandist organisation that perpetuates hatred of Jews and supports Hamas and genocide. There is no half way in between, no understanding some of what they say or do.
Richard,
You are a true patriot for Israel. When exactly will you be getting an Israeli passport?
Three cheers for Richard, the UK defender of justice!
Hear hear!!
I am as frustrated as everyone with these loathsome individuals, but let us not forget the ultra-orthodox Jews, the Karta Neturei who happily side with all anti-Israel groups, have been to Hamas, and even the late (equally loathsome) Arafat. Then we have the case of an eight years old girl spat on by the ultra-orhtodox in Israel because of her skirt length. Until Israel sorts out the enemy in its midst, then supporters in the diaspora, like myself, will increasingly say: ‘why bother?’
Say that Brian, it is your right, but when your daughter is forced to wear a hijab and suffer three other wives whilst she walks five paces behind her husband on his way to Finsbury Park, or any other High Street in any other capital,of the Westen world to pray to Allah then you will understand that this is not so much to do with Israel but with the caliphate’s trouble with all People of the Book and that includes those nice liberal socialists of all persuasions, Jews and Christians alike, who hold hands with them in the vein hope they can defeat Capitalism and the West for the sake of the Socialist Internationale that doesn’t have a hope in hell of winning against the terrorist league of the 12th Imam.
Sharon,
Of course I don’t want my daughter to wear a hijab, and neither do I want her to be forced to the back of a bus, not be allowed to wear what she wants, go out with young people, marry who is chosen for her,…and that’s under the ultra-orthodox rule in Israel. What is the difference then from Islamic Fundamentalism, apart from their wish to liquidate all Jews?
Brian, no Jew is trying to make the entire world Jewish. You just have to say no and that’s it. The Israeli government has not allowed separate seating on buses. Keep up with events. Islamic governments don’t allow you to practice any religion but Islam. QED
and the wish to liquidate all Jews is of course une quantité negligeable when it comes comparisons.
The NK are going on this: ”Jews as a group should not massively emigrate to Palestine before the coming of the Messiah” ( the second oath imposed on the Jews in the Talmudic Tractate Ketubot p.111.). Rabbi Nachmanides of the 13th century is the only significant religious leader in the last 700 years who has challenged this oath. Unsurprisingly, he is the patron saint of the National Religious Party and the Gush Emunim settlers. It seems to me that any observant religious Jew could get their knickers in a twist trying to sidestep this oath if they regard the Talmud as authoritative. If as a religious Jew, you believe this is now the period of redemption leading to the coming of the Messiah, then religious laws like this can be disregarded, whereas if you think we are living in normal times, then Israel has no legitimacy and is just another ghetto in the Diaspora. It seems to me that the idea that we are living at the beginning of the period of redemption has taken hold in Israel partly out of hope and desperation and partly because it facilitates a sidestepping of the oath and thus supports the Zionist purpose.
Roger, the oath was reinterpeted many years ago. Only the NK and a few other sects stick to it so literally. Why are you getting so hung up on the NK? There’s a big NK presence in Israel anyway, funnily enough.
Sent from my BlackBerry® wireless device
Hi Roger,
I assume that this is NK speaking, not you. You may want to read this, page 16:
Click to access Religious%20Zionism%20Debate.pdf
Richard and Daniel: I’m currently working my way through a couple of books by Israel Shahak, the Jewish historian. Aside from his critique of Zionism and Jewish chauvinism, I find the material he unearths and presents very interesting..lengthy quotes from various sources….The Talmud, Maimonides’ Mishnah Torah and the Shulhan Aruch. As a non-Jew, I find much of it very disturbing indeed and not open to interpretation..it speaks for itself loudly and clearly. And its racism matches the worst manifestations of antisemitism. The material cannot be denied because it has been lifted out of context or misinterpreted and distorted in any way by Shahad. It is there….although often omitted in English translations and apologia.
I know it’s your mission on this blog to expose bigotry and antisemitism and I fully support you in what you’re doing, but I am also personally discovering a similar current of prejudice and hatred in Judaism towards gentiles. I know you’re not going to like this and it’s almost taboo to say so but in order to fight antisemitism , it is also necessary at the same time to combat Jewish chauvinism and supremacism.
let me just give one example only to illustrate my point. The Chief rabbi of Palestine from 1920 to 1935 and founder of the messianic ideology, Rabbi Avracham Yitzhak HaCohen Kook, said this…and i kid you not… ”the difference between a jewish soul and the souls of non-Jews…all of them in all different levels…is greater and deeper than the difference between a human soul and the souls of cattle”. Kook’s teaching was based on the Lurianic Kabbala, a school which dominated Judaism from the late 16th to the 19th century, one of whose tenets is the absolute superiority of the Jewish soul and body over the non-Jewish soul and body.
I’m not saying this is what you believe Richard and Daniel, but I do know that Jewish fundamentalists in Israel think this way but don’t make it too public. I have personally been on the receiving end of this bigotry and racism.
at one time I have been at the receiving end of racism from some African American and a black guy from some French Caribbean island.
So what?
Did it start me into lecturing blacks?
Roger (and are you Roger Pearse, the patristic scholar, may I ask?),
I will try to answer both your posts, not necessarily in order.
I.
Tractate Kethuboth 111a is often adduced by anti-Zionists, Jewish and non-Jewish. The text is open to various interpretations, nor is it authoritative in and of itself as to what Jews should or should not do. The alleged “rulings” (as it were) are themselves merely handed down interpretations of scripture. But, in essence, the rabbis concerned say that
1) Israel in exile should not “scale the wall” (variously interpreted as meaning “lay siege to” or, quite literally, overcome the military and political defences and means Rome (and by extension its successor empires) by which it had alienated Jews from their land; nor
2) rebel against the nations, provided they not oppress Israel too much.
3) the nations should not oppress Israel too much.
These arguments are easily answered.
1) before Israel was founded, Jews by and large settled in Palestine perfectly peacefully, on land bought perfectly legally. There was some dispossession or displacement of some native tenants, but the Peel Commission found this to be negligible. This was not like European colonising of North America or South Africa. In Palestine, Jewish colonising could be thwarted, by and large, by refusing to sell one’s land. Further, the British greatly restricted where Jews could settle, and what land they could buy. In the late 19th and early 20th centuries, Jews hardly came to land “as a wall” (another translation). They came in dribs and drabs, and were dispersed throughout the country. Even in the 1930s, they were not coming “as a wall”, since they were coming all, by and large, as individual refugees. Certainly not for the purposes of conquest. Again, they came perfectly peacefully, if not always legally, and were dispersed throughout the land. When they settled in Israel after it was founded, it was not ‘as a wall’ (although one could admittedly interpret ‘as a wall’ in pretty much any way that suits). It can hardly mean that Jews may not return to the land in more than tiny numbers, since that would exclude the possibility of any kind of return or restoration
2) Zionist Jews hardly rebelled against the nations, since they came, by and large, with international permission.
3) Further, in the light of history, it would be hard to maintain that the nations did not oppress Israel too much.
Ergo 1) and 2) no longer applied.
Here is the Socino translation, but it supplies more than is actually there
http://www.come-and-hear.com/kethuboth/kethuboth_111.html
‘Rabbi Nachmanides of the 13th century is the only significant religious leader in the last 700 years who has challenged this oath.’
That is such an absurdly simplistic thing to say. You speak as if Jews +could+ go to Palestine in more than tiny numbers. You overlook the fact that imperial Christendom and Islam expressly forbade such thing, as a reversal of the substantial exile or dispossession imposed on Jews for their rejection of Jesus and the prophets. Tract. Keth. 111a assumes that a Jewish return proper can only be allowed by the imperial powers that be, as in the past.
Caliph Umar restricted the Jewish families that could settle in Jerusalem from 140 to 70 because the Christians complained. Jews were never to outnumber Christians, even though it suited the Muslims to divide the non-Muslim communities.
The imperial Islamic power structures in place in Palestine restricted and periodically oppressed the extent of Jewish life e.g. all Ashkenazim were expelled from Jerusalem in the 18th century. It was only under the British that, for the first time since Julian the Apostate, these former strictures were repealed.
II.
it’s possible to find a fair amount of anti-Jewish hatred and racism in patristic sources, written over the same period, hatred and racism that then found expression in imperial state legislature.
If you are Roger Pearse (apologies if you are not), I’m surprised a scholar such as you would consult an author like Shahak on such a vast work as the Talmuds and Mishna. It would be a bit like me looking into the church fathers through a work by Richard Dawkins (an imperfect analogy, I grant you).
Of course there is Jewish bigotry and racism, religious and secular.
I’m reading Marcel Simon’s Verus Israel, at the moment, who has the very un-pc line (but possible to say in 1948) that wherever there were Jews, antisemitism arose. But even he acknowledges a context to some anti-gentile or anti-Christian hatred e.g. imperial Roman dominion and oppression, which especially Greco-Roman gentile Christians endorsed, post and ante factum, as Jews’ proper punishment for their sins, and in which some actively participated. I’ve never thought it a coincidence that the first Christian to say he comes from somewhere called Palestine, Justin Martyr, a Greco-Roman colonial from Flavia Neapolis, is also the first to lecture a Jew escaped from the Hadrianic suppression, Trypho, on how
a) he deserved it all and
b) Christians (like himself) inherit Jerusalem in their place.
Simon even misses an example of early 4th century Palestinian Greco-Roman Christian tax collectors, in Caesarea, who exempt their (originally Babylonian) Jewish Hebrew teacher for 13 years in lieu of payment. They then embarrass him by asking, ‘If one is in anger, upon whom does one vent it, an enemy or a friend’? i.e. Why had God visited on Israel these woes, as punishment or reward.
It’s a nice example of the imperial, colonial arrangement that had actually begun earlier, in the 2nd century, with the first (self-defined) Palestinian Christian, Justin Martyr.
As to current religious Zionist Jewish racism, it is extremely troubling. But the tendency of the region is to religious conservatism, probably in a mutual feedback relationship. The more Israeli Jews feel besieged and threatened the more they turn to sources of solidarity and homogeneity, the more intolerant of outsiders they view as potential threats they become. It is worrying. But the climate outside Israel is cold. The tendency is to huddle together for warmth.
zkharya: No I am not Roger Pearse.
And tell me, why exactly are you so disparaging of such a fine scholar as Shahak? Is it because he is telling you what you don’t want to hear? I have a very good in-built bullshit detector and with you the needle has gone way beyond the scale. Whitewashing the vicious racism, misogyny and homophobia that can be found in the Talmud is futile, Statements like ‘a woman is a sack full of excrement’ (tractate shabat page 152b) is not open to interpretation. When I read Shahak, it is obvious he is a man of integrity and sincerity who loves his country and people, and it is precisely for that reason that he ventured to examine Jewish fundamentalism and racial supremacism more closely, a force that is currently resurging and threatening to undermine Israel from the inside. His work is impeccable and the sources reliable. There are 2 major threats to Israel as a liberal democracy…..Islamic Jihad and the implementation of theocratic totalitarianism through the Halacha. Irony abounds! And by the way, many Israeli Jews…..needless to say secular Jews…..would concur with what I am saying here. It is this diversity of opinion and the freedom to express it that is one reason, amongst many, that makes Israel worth supporting. There are numerous articles in the Israeli Hebrew press criticising Judaism that, if translated into English and published in Europe for example as texts written by non-Jews, would be immediately jumped on and accused of virulent antisemitism. I should also point out that within the Haredi community..that’s 12% of Israel’s population and growing, there is absolutely no press freedom whatsoever.
‘Whitewashing the vicious racism, misogyny and homophobia that can be found in the Talmud is futile, Statements like ‘a woman is a sack full of excrement’ (tractate shabat page 152b) is not open to interpretation. ‘
As they can be found in patristic literature. Forgive me, I thought I was talking to Roger Pearse, who is a scholar in the church fathers.
‘‘a woman is a sack full of excrement’ (tractate shabat page 152b) is not open to interpretation. ‘#
Actually, yes it can. If Tertullian says “Woman is a temple built over a sewer, the gateway to the devil” it has to do with an intrinsic impurity or immorality as to female sexuality a priori, something a celibate or encratic church father views differently to a rabbi, who enjoins every Jewish male to marry and sire children.
Do I get it right, only a state full of blameless people preferably each and everyone worthy of beatification are worthy of your support?
Well said Silke!
Roger, people can believe what they want. They can also dislike whoever they want. What they cannot do is kill whoever they want and nor can they call for the genocide of an entire nation. If you don’t like what Rabbi Kook believes or writes about you can turn away, you can criticise and you can accuse him of racism, superiority or any other label,you wish to,give him. You cannot do the same with any person who preaches Jihad as you will get your head blown off!
Silke: I’m not lecturing Jews …..I?m criticising aspects of Judaism that are racist and inhuman. And I’m not withdrawing my support for Israel. Your response is hysterical and also predictable.
I am not saying only blameless people deserve my support, but can you give me the name of any other country whose citizens,1. deny its right to exist (Karta Neturei), and 2, go round the world denigrating the country that protects them, and gives them a living (Israeli Jewish Academics)?
IN the UK that is called treason. Being a member of a Reform synagogue, I cannot accept the reduction of women to third class, ie being told to sit at the back of a bus. We can agree to disagree, but Israel is losing its diaspora support(which it can’t afford) by allowing the ultra-orthodox so much liberty.
from Yaacov Lozowick’s report of his participations in some kind of study program I got the impression that Torah study is at least as complicated as law. And about law I know for sure that things “not open to interpretation” very rarely exist.
For one reason because what may seem clear in one sentence becomes opaque if you connect it to another sentence from an at first glance completely unconnected field.
That is why I never indulge in bashing Islam as a religion as opposed to how contemporary Islam is interfering with my life, which Judaism thank heavens doesn’t do. I don’t know Islamic theology, I don’t even know the theology of the religion I grew up in.
It comes fromt he same mind-set that I always refuse to give my personal interpretation of “int’l law”. Because my professional life has taught me, that whoever claims to be able to say anything by just reading the paragraphs doesn’t know what he/she is talking about.
By now I have listened twice to Paula Fredriksen’s 3 lectures on sin. Maybe after the 10th time or so I’ll be able to repeat all that is in there in my own words and as best I know Christianity is quite a bit younger than Judaism thus had a lot less time to acquire layers and layers and layers of complexity.
And besides all that if I had a religion I’d find it impolite (and get into proper hysterics) if an outsider’d tell me what my religion tells me or doesn’t tell me.
Roger,
It’s 7.am Friday and because of Shabbat and exams on Sunday, I won’t have time to reply to you before Monday morning.
Daniel
Your obsequious philiosemitism is getting the better of you Silke. You remind me of the craven leftistpro-Palestinian crowd who see no wrong in their loved ones. This is just more victimology. And you really think it is impolite to denounce racial and religious supremacism? You need a reality check badly.
Sharon….I am not accusing Kook of racism….I am stating the fact that.he WAS a racist and so is everyone who accepts his teachings, which are very influential in Israel, particularly with the settlers and the NRP. There is a street named after him in Jerusalem. At least Berlin no longer has any Adolf Hitler street. And yes there is a moral….I mean immoral …..eqivalence here. Look at what he said again..iand just put the denial aside for a moment….it could have been lifted right out of Mein Kampf.
So no I will not ignore this. Ok Jews are not going around lopping people’s heads off and flying planes into towers threatening to take over the world, but that does not make this crap acceptable to a decent human being.
Nobody says it does Roger, but do put it in perspective. If you focus on that then Israel, the only nation battling single handed against the world being taken over by totalitarian caliphate ideology will no longer be the torch bearer for freedom and democracy whilst Europe, America and the rest are succumbing. So first things first. Every people has some aspect that is unpalatable but none so much as those that would be King of the world – don’t forget that!
‘I?m criticising aspects of Judaism that are racist and inhuman.’
The Talmud is a vast work, with conflicting views and opinions. The contemporary discourse, written at and over about the same time, is that of the church fathers.
obsequious = Obedient or attentive to an excessive or servile degree.
interesting if I refuse to meddle in things that are none of my business I am servile.
I must say I kind of like that.
Richard:
You don’t think the title of the piece is, shall we say, slightly over the top?
When Nationalism becomes expansive (Israel’s expansionism has been going on for over 40 years now) then it becomes problematic.
How does building further settlements and expanding existing ones improve Israel’s security? Unless you’re willing to believe that to use your own, for the most part unarmed civilians as human shields somehow improves Israel’s security this really is a croc of sh*t.
Israel’s missile shield (‘Iron Dome’) is ready, I believe. Should it count for something in your calculations?
At the very least there should be a comprehensive and permanent settlement freeze but you’re not in favour of that either.
We hear so much about Israel’s fabled democracy. I’m also constantly told by ‘moderate’ Zionists (granted: you’re not in that category) that ‘Israel wants peace’ and that ‘Israelis want a two state solution’. Well, if Israel’s democracy is such a shining light unto the nations, how come the Israeli electorate votes in nothing but rejectionists and maximalists, one worse than the other but none of them even remotely inclined to even consider giving up the settler project or even curtailing it?
When will you quit playing the ‘yeah but no but’ Zionist contortionist and plainly state that you believe the Zionists have the right to the entirety of Mandate Palestine and that the ‘Fakestinians’ belong in ‘Arabia’? It would earn you purrs of contentment, love letters even, from your little adoring crowd here and it would intellectually honest at least from your perspective. Go on, enough with the weasel words, as they say: ‘be a man about it’…
Dear Gert, thought yoau’d left for good! Daniel was so right that you would raise you head again, tempted not to disappear into oblivion!
Hi Gert,
Good to have you back! I was wondering if you could help me answer a few simple questions:
1. How many times have you condemned the Syrian regime and its murder of 5,500 innocent civilians on your blog (5,600 by now)?
2. Can you show me a single instance of your having called Mubarak a dictator or in any way condemning him before it became fashionable last year?
3. Did you ever condemn Kaddafi him before he fell from power?
4. Have you ever condemned or attacked any world leaders who are not Jewish or pro-Israel?
I know that you have a busy schedule, but whenever you get the chance. Quick as you like.
Operating the Iron Dome is very expensive and why should the proceeds of the labour of Israel’s citizens go all into defense?
Taken over? More like infiltrated by fifth-columnists.
“so-called Palestinian refugees (including many who were never born there but, what the hell, let’s call them “refugees†anyway) to be allowed into Israel and destroy its Jewish sovereignty.”
I must have missed where in the Founding Documents of Israel there is any mention of “Jewish Sovereignty”, that seems to be your thing. Even at that, I’m not sure how one moves from claiming refugees are “so-called” to claiming their presence in the state destroys “Jewish sovereignty”. If you haven’t noticed, Israel is already struggling with its own “sovereignty” given that it has no defined borders and cannot control its settler population within those ill-defined borders. You even quote the speakers you claim are such miscreants as saying “Israel has a right to exist” – how horrible they must be! Furthermore, this is a panel of speakers none of whom Arab (at least in the sense we define Palestinians here in Israel, not Arab Jewish), wasn’t that what you people were crying for in decades past – none of those terrorists on the panels spreading their infectious views.
Your lot are really running out of any legitimate basis for criticism. Face it – some of us here in Israel, as well as Jews and Israelis abroad, are engaging in the debate over what the future of our nation will be like. You won’t live to see these consequences and it seems you’ve done well in Britain off the gas fueling Hindenberg Israel. We want a change. Sorry that doesn’t accord with the millenialist fantasies they fed you to stave off facing the meaningless of existence – a poisonous admixture of concocted race-myths and ethnic-nationalism to soothe the alienation you’ve been convinced diaspora instills. Give us a break with all of this, achi.
Daniel,
I’m under no obligation to oblige you.
I might consider it if you address my points, which are simple. Anyone would think not addressing them is the reason for you to throw up distraction after distraction.
It’s almost refreshing to see a moderate Israeli Zionist on this blog, the latter which when things start going wrong for Israel will still behave like the band on the Titanic: play on and pretend your nose is bleeding. So you might want to address his points too and inject a modicum of realism into your discourse…
Daniel, I know you’re dying to call me an antisemite again, you’ve already done this in the past with great gusto, so why be shy?
But whatever it is that I am or what you want to call me though, the questions Israel faces vis-à -vis the Palestinian question…
Hi Gert.
To the best of my knowledge I have always fully answered every question you’ve asked me. Can you point to a case where I haven’t?
Now, go on. Humor me.
1. How many times have you condemned the Syrian regime and its murder of 5,500 innocent civilians on your blog (5,609 by now)?
2. Can you show me a single instance of your having called Mubarak a dictator or in any way condemning him before it became fashionable last year?
3. Did you ever condemn Kaddafi him before he fell from power?
4. Have you ever condemned or attacked any world leaders who are not Jewish or pro-Israel?
Daniel,
You’re starting to bore me again. Yawn.
You and Silke should really be getting a room by now!
Iron Dome expensive? Obama’s providing a check for a 100 million USD as a sweetener.
You think its cheaper to keep half a million or so settlers in the WB? Just going by your “logicâ€, you know?
Gert
you made a claim
Daniel asked you to substantiate it
and now your are dodging
remain!
Why is anyone surprised . This is the culmination of a moribund student society whose members are clueless as regards the contemporary history of Israel and the complex issues facing it . They are unable to formulate proper counter argument to the question delegitimization through Bds . Several years ago Jake Witzenfeld , president of the Cambridge Jewish student society rolled over to have his tummy tickled having agreed to disinvite Benny Green who the Palestinian societ objected to . His reward for so doing was his failure to get a reciprocal agreement regarding controversial Arab speakers .
The fact is wherever a vacuum exits , garbage will flow in . Sometimes that’s ok , often it’s not .
Advocacy should be just as it means not falafel and wine parties and an opportunity to meet the opposite sex .
This is all part of the bds multi tier strategy of delegitimization .
And what of our august bodies in all this . BoD
BICOM etc .
The only way to reclaim the situation is to form a separate society but frankly , observing our students tweeting and face booking and looking fairly disinterested at the Yachad debate at UCS a couple of months ago , I d say the battle is lost .
My dear Brian, it seems you do understand the greater threat of Iran and Islam that affects not only your relationship with Israel, but the survival of all that we are as Westerners, non Jews included. As repugnant as NK is, it will not bring down the entire world. What this bunch of clowns Pappe etc support advocates just that, and they are certainly more repugnant than NK and any religious Jew you don’t have to mix with. The fact that Israel tolerates differences shows that it is a democracy, that Jews are free, tolerant and understanding, all those things that the media fed by this PSC / BDS supporting group of self haters try to dispel. We should be proud of this and in these very bad times join together to fight off this evil, not be dissenting and self critical on issues that have no place in the current troubles we all face.
True, NK will not bring down Western democracy but could bring down Israel. Remember these clowns, and the ultra-orthodox do not serve in the IDF. They castigate reform Jews,yet the son of a former Rabbi at Menorah in Manchester gave his life in the Lebanon war. The ultra-orthdox were quite happy for that sacrifice to save their skins. It is hard to get the Western world to be on our side when they see, and hear voices of dissent from within Israel, And what do you propose should be done with the Arab members of the Knesset who advocate the fall of the country?
Any member of any parliament in a democracy that seeks bonds with the enemy is committing treason and should be treated according to the law for treasonable offenses and that includes the touchy subject of the only democratically elected Arabs in the Middle East should they be traitors in
Israel.
Re Israel’s own dirty washing – I would suggest that if Jews stopped doing this washing in public and felt more proud of their achievements then perhaps the wider world would not attack Israel and Jews for what are minor offenses in the context of totalitarian ideological caliphate imperialism that they fail to criticize. At this time when we as Jews have our backs against the wall in terms of Israel constantly being maligned for being what it is patently not and Jews who once again are receiving overt Jew hate attacks and sentiments from the very liberals who have hijacked social awareness for themselves, we don’t need liberal Jews to remind them that all peoples have some frailty. They have forgotten that it is the Jewish nation that gave them all the precepts for social democracies, human rights and freedoms and they certainly don’t need Jews to remind them that, like most societies, there is an element that does not follow the general principles that are intrinsic to who we are as Jews.
So let’s stop this self abasement and look to the more positive aspects that we as Jews contribute to an increasingly debased world of nations.
Brian, when this problem is taken care of we can contemplate our in house differences. Until then let’s focus on getting Western leaders to understand the score. First things first!
http://www.jpost.com/IranianThreat/News/Article.aspx?id=256316
Daniel, your questions hit the nail on the Jew-obsessed head. Gert will again repeat what I freely admit to (that I am not keen on the French), but he won’t answer your questions. And here’s why . . .
You are turning Gert into the Hercule Poirot of the blogosphere insofar that he is Belgian
and Flemish Belgian to boot – even less reason to take him for a French.
tsk tsk tsk
Silke:
What does my nationality (something which means little to me, BTW) have to do with Mike’s retching hatred of the French?
Here’s Mad Mike’s Francophobic screed when the word French is replaced with Jew or Jewish.
Yet people liked that feel they have the right to lecture others on racism.
Of course your hero Daniel’s been sounding the jungledrums again, like the little damsel in distress that he is.
well Hercule Poirot strongly objects to being taken for a French – I thought that might be a Belgian speciality.
Long long ago I read Mike’s French piece – I found it rather amusing. As best I know the French never were a persecuted minority anywhere ever.
And that makes it, believe it or not, a difference.
Did I rattle yer chair, Gertie? Hope I didn’t loosen the wheels!
A great article for all these anti Zionists.
http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Columnists/Article.aspx?id=256224
An indictment of Palestinian incitement
ISRAEL KASNETT 02/03/2012
Silke:
Yeah, you’ve said that before. Obviously there’s a sliding scale in your head that defines who and who cannot have racism directed at them, based on their past record of persecution.
You don’t know how silly you sound.
Mad Mike:
As I wrote before:
It stands today.
And Jew-obsessed Gert, as I wrote before . . .
“those who, once upon a time, simply didn’t like Jews, broke glass, and bayed for blood now ‘merely’ say that they don’t like Zionists, go on protests, and devote all of their time to undermining Israel”
(http://melchettmike.wordpress.com/2010/03/26/the-israel-only-bashers-a-case-study-bridlington-gert/)
And that stands, too! Pederasts back to Belgian!!
Listen Mikey:
You know when you’re ‘reading’ The Daily Star’? You’re only supposed to salivate over the pictures, not actually read the text!
when you p*ss on your chair (as you have repeatedly told us is your habit) doesn’t the liquid do harm to the electrics or are they water-proof in the model you use?
Depending on whom one believes, between 200 and 500 innocent Syrian civilians- men, women and children – were butchered in one night. The same United Nations that has passed 224 anti-Israel resolutions decided not to condemn the massacre. Can anybody imagine what would have been their reaction if Israel had done one hundredth of that? Don’t get me wrong. I have no illusions that the Syrian opposition would be any better for Israel than Assad. Apparently they’re accusing him of being a Zionist and he’s calling them Israeli agents too.
Today in synagogues all around the word we read of the moment when our Egyptians slavemasters were drowned in Red Sea. The Talmud describes G-d seeing the angels singing in delight at the sight, only to be admonished by G-d, “The works of my hands are drowning in sea, and you are singing songs?”
The Syrians innocents murdered today were created by the hands of my Maker as were the 79 Egyptians killed by their brothers in “soccer riots”. Therefore, despite the early spring sun that was shining today in the Judean Wilderness and even though I spent a wonderful Shabbat with old friends celebrating their grandson’s bar mitzvah I cannot but feel a little melancholy.
In times of mourning we refrain from acts that cause us enjoyment, so as my Syrian and Egyptian neighbors bury their dead, today is not the day to once again pound Gert’s stupid head into the ground, and tonight is not the night. Let Mike and Silke babysit the Bridlington boy tonight. Either of them could take care of a dozen like him before breakfast without breaking a sweat.
Tomorrow is another day.
Daniel:
The UN has strongly condemned the Syrian regime’s conduct. Sanctions are being discussed and would have been in place by now if it wasn’t for Russian intransigence (they will yield soon too). It is the talk of the day at the UN.
The unspeakable (given the complexity of the Syrian situation on many levels), i.e. Nato intervention, is becoming more inevitable by the day: once considered anathema we will probably see this intervention unfold, almost against all odds. Good.
The Syrian debacle is about one year old, Israel’s occupation of the WB more than forty.
As ever, you’re talking through your back orifice and about something you know diddly squat about.
1 year old? Really? You have a selective memory. How many did Bashar’s father kill at Hama? 30,000 wasn’t it?
Richard:
These were allegedly Islamists, that the West didn’t mind too much, did Israel protest? Thought not.. They [West and Israel] also didn’t mind Saddam gassing Kurds AND Iranians when he was doing the West’s dirty work. Not a peep out of Israel either, BTW.
Gert has insider-info about the talk of the day at the UN, he has relocated to New York, trolling the halls of the UN-building, overhearing the talks of the day? Wow! And there I am still thinking that he is a mortal human being.
But seriously it seems to me that he is delusioning himself more and more into the role of worldliwise pundit welcome at the tables of all the great and mighty.
Haven’t you got a husband to talk to sleep or something? A cuddly toy perhaps? Very therapeutic for women your age, my dentist’s magazine tells me…
Gert, be a gentleman. Why should Israel condemn publicly? It would fall on hollow ears. It is unbelievable to watch what these Arab countries, and Iran, do to their own people. It is sickening torture.
since you apparently want to know, I still got all my own teeth and they are in perfect shape as the dentist confirmed yesterday.
Don’t be jealous, some people just have all the luck.
I had no intention of being dragged down into that Bridlington gutter, but this is too much. The inconceivable thing is how the anti-Semite is totally blas̩ when it comes to the torture, rape and murder of hundreds, soon thousands of Arabs Рunless the twisted hate-poisoned can convince itself that it can find a Jewish connection.
His empty irrelevant blog has not one mention of these countless atrocities. What a disgrace!
And what about your blog, Daniel? Still composing songs about me? Anything else ever on that rag?
at least that blog has a couple of entries which on occasion I find quite to helpful when I want to make a point.
See for instance:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jun/08/syria-assad-un-sanctions-resolution
http://www.ajc.com/news/nation-world/russia-still-2russia-still-2-big-1330988.html
http://www.naharnet.com/stories/en/28969-sarkozy-deplores-russian-chinese-u-n-veto-on-syria
I don’t know of a single Western regime that hasn’t denounced the Assad regime’s actions.It’s hardly these countries g’ments’ fault that Russia and the Chinese are playing ‘hard to get’.
‘Bang’ goes your theory.
The theory holds! This has been going on for 40 years. Only now has the world decided to notice. Assad slaughtered 30,000 at Hama in the 80s. Jordan slaughterted thousands during Black September. But who cared? They only condemn Israel when it takes defensive measures.
Engage brain before keyboard. The key UN Resolution, 242, has nothing to do with ‘defensive measures’, unless you call a massive land grab with subsequent population transfer somehow ‘defensive’…
I don’t think there’s a Nation in the world that begrudges Israel’s right to self-defence. But Leb I, Leb II and Gaza went well beyond any reasonable description of ‘self-defence’.
As regards Black September, I would have thought that would have been right up your street! The PLO believing rather naively they could topple the Jordanian Monarchy and then getting beaten up quite badly. Did Israel lodge a complaint at the UN? Thought not…
You claim not to band the antisemitism label around too much but your whole spiel here is to insinuate the UN is antisemitic.
Still can’t believe you brought up Black September. Lemmesee, Israel did everything to pursue the PLO to the ends of the earth, managing finally to cause exile to Tunis. Somewhere along the road they get a good hiding from Jordan and Richie here’s complaining. You sure you weren’t dancing in the streets at that time?
25,000 during Black September, 30,000 at Hama, another 7,100 in Syria recently (so far), 1 million dead when Iraq fought Iran, etc etc etc but when Israel goes to war against Hamas in Gaza we get the Goldstone Report.
Israel wages war on a people without appreciable means of defence. Kalashnikovs, some home made ‘rockets’, no SAMs, no air force, no Navy, no artillery, no air defence, no armoured vehicles, no tanks. I saw it with my own eyes, almost in real time. It was disgusting beyond belief.
It was plain butchery. There’s reason to believe no real battles were ever fought. The AOF just fired a wall of lead at anything that moved and was suspected to be Hamas.
Not “a people”; Hamas, an armed terrorist outfit. Most people killed were Hamas. No sympathy for an armed terrorist being killed. Sorry.
people with home-made IEDs certainly inflicted some damage on the most sophisticated army of our days
The only thing that can satisfy Gert is seeing victims like these – all it took to produce them was a kitchen knife
That is when his sense of “justice” is in balance
Gert has anybody ever told you that it behoves a sane person well to beware of the videos and pictures we are fed these days?
Gert, you are confused or stupid – its not the Jews who dance in the streets when people are killed, it’s rather the Arab Palestinians who enjoy that reaction throwing sweets in the streets as they jig to a jihad jive. And in case you also didn’t learn much school, this matter of trying to rid the world of Jews even predates the Arabs to the mighty Greeks, Romans, Christians and Muslims. However, it’s the caliphates who carry the brightest torch of desire to murder us off completely and if you read the PLO charter you will see a section devoted to how the Arabs in the region would be renamed Palestinians evoking fake connection to the past that bigots likeMyoumhavenfallen for, and used as a propaganda weapon to try and complete a 1400 year mission. However, whatever you try and dump on this blog or elsewhere, we are here to stay, going nowhere! Sorry to disappoint you.
Rich:
To ladies perhaps, if they return the courtesy…
When Mubarak was about to fall, every Israeli Jew and Zionist supporter nearly crapped his nappy. Mubarak, butcher, torturer and Embezzler-in-Chief of Cairo was Israel’s best friend. Did the Israeli’s (and supporters) care one iota about their Arab neighbours then as now?
Yes, Gert.
Show me one critical article you ever wrote against Mubarak before he fell from power, or did he suddenly become “butcher, torturer and Embezzler-in-Chief of Cairo” at the beginning of the Arab Spring?
Seriously, you’ve written hundreds of postings in the past ten years. Show me one word you ever wrote against Mubarak. Post a link!
Now I’ll tell you something. I care deeply for our Arab neighbors as does every Israeli I know, not only because they are fellow human beings who live just a few kilometers from our borders, but mainly because their instability is our headache. Tomorrow my son take part in IDF training maneuvers,which are necessitated exactly because Assad and his henchmen are massacring their own brothers. The instability of its neighbors or their suffering is never the interest of a peace loving Western democracy.
You see Gert, you cretin, to us this is not a game or a list an article that we’ve plagiarized from Ha’aretz. To us this is not a list of names of exotic unpronounceable places that we’ve read about in the Bridlington reference library. This is our lives and those of our children.
Now crawl back to your lonely empty blog.
and to add to the gloom (at least from where I come from) German Heinrich-Böll-Foundation finances +972 magazine.
Heinrich-Böll belongs to the German Greens and is called independent but its money comes in the end from the German government i.e. German taxpayer money. And the world wants to keep Israel from controlling foreign governments influence in its country? By what entitlement?
http://www.jpost.com/International/Article.aspx?ID=255167&R=R1
Heaven may protect the ladies – Gert trying to do a gentleman to them must make every self-respecting lady feel as if somebody was trying to soil her.
Well, I’m clocking off, so cackle away. Must let Daniel allow his usual runny f**ces some space…
Toodeloo!
Is he getting sillier or is it me getting less tolerant of sillyness?
Daniel, Gert can never grasp the meaning of what you have written. To me your words are warm, gentle and a true reflection of my understanding of what it means to be a Jew. Thank you for writing so heartfelt and poignantly. The sadness of what is happening seems to have escaped most people’s notice.
Many pages of this excellent blog will bear witness to the fact that I have tried to show respect and tolerance towards opponents, including those who want for the destruction of my country and though they rarely admit it, my people.
I was criticized for talking to Tony Greenstein in a civilized fashion and for not cursing an Arabian propagandist from Hebron whose name alludes me. I saw little to be gained from name-calling and though in neither case was I able to turn my “opponent” into a card-carrying Zionist, I did find the conversations interesting.
However, I have allowed myself to make two exceptions to this rule; the former being the Yoni/Leah who we have thankfully heard little from of late and the latter being Gert. It is regarding the latter that I wish to explain my, what often appears to be antagonism.
I respect an anti-Semite’s right to dislike me and even hope for my downfall. Naturally, if he tries to harm me I reserve the right to defend myself to the best of my abilities. However, far more annoying I find the Jew hater who is forever at pains to explain that it is not Israel the Jewish State he wished to destroy, but Israel the Zionist state. After all, he is no anti-Semite, he is just an anti-Zionist.
As far as is known, Gert has no friends, but were he to have any, he would no doubt make much of the fact that some of the best of them are Jewish. Neturei Karte is usually pulled out of the hat on such occasions to prove that “many” Jews are anti-Zionists and they can’t be anti-Semitic, surely. One’s mind’s eye imagines Hitler claiming that he was no anti-Semite as he was backed by several rich Jews initially, and many of his wife’s friends were Jewish too.
However Gert’s weakest argument of all is his response to the question why he always singles out Israel and Jews as the topics of all his blogs. He explains that so does Richard Millett. The symmetry is mind-boggling. It is the equivalent of a convicted sex offender arguing that the social worker who is treating him is no less obsessed with sex or a burglar claiming that it is not only he who has devoted his life to law-breaking, but the policeman who arrested him too. “I commit crimes and he prevents them. What is the difference between us?”
To be clear, if “Developing your Web Presence” were a pro-Palestinian blog I would have no problem with it. Its pages would include items about Palestinian society, culture, politics, etc – why not? I would even be sympathetic to the occasional anti-Israel item, perhaps a gripe about the evils of the “occupation” and so on – but nothing of the sort. This is not a pro-Arab blog it is an anti-Jewish one, without even having the intellectual honesty or common decency to admit what it is.
I do not believe that its author likes of even knows any Palestinians who are not cyber-characters. He cares about them not a jot, using them as his cannon fodder in his pathetic one-sided battle against the Jewish people. He has proved this time and time again by wholly ignoring the plight of any suffering Arabs, if he can’t find a Jewish connection. Were the Jewish State to be on the Falkland Islands, he’d be siding with Argentina and if we lived on Mars he’d be writing his blog about the poor oppressed Martians. In short, the man is a charlatan, a hypocrite and unlike our more decent and honest enemies, such as Greenstein, he is deserving only of much scorn.
and he (Gert) makes claims but when challenged to prove that he said the truth just dodges.
Does that make him more of a liar or more of a coward or a mixture of both, 50:50 or which other combination?
Daniel, well said. This is the message for all those who justify their illogical Jew hatred this way. Gert is a fool and a coward. He writes rubbish and runs when put on the spot. It’s a pity he doesn’t stay away.
OTOH he supplies useful training. If one watches his behaviour closely one has a blueprint for all of them. The overwhelming majority of them operate the same way as Gert does. Amazingly uniform and devoid of new ideas.
Almost every comment Daniel writes has a new or slightly new angle in it. Not so with Gert, it is all same old same old – it has been debunked innumerable times but they repeat it endlessly, hoping probably not without reason, that if they repeat it often enough it will become a self-evident truth. Now, whom does that remind me of?
This blog post is a ridiculous misrepresentation of the actual debate which took place. Two people were very pro-BDS – Pappe and Chalcraft. The other three were critical, two of us (myself and Hannah Weisfeld) very much so. It is profoundly unfair to caption my contribution ‘Jewish “influence”‘ or “the Jews” as if I was making some kind of anti-Semitic argument. That is an atrocious misrepresentation which merely indicates the weakness of the analysis. I confined my remarks almost entirely to criticising the lack of strategic analysis around the BDS debate. If you examine the hashtag #soasis on Twitter, you will see the reaction of others who were present. None of them saw my remarks in the vein depicted here. By all means have an argument about BDS and criticise what I said – but please do not misrepresent what I said.
Lee Jones, if you truly understood the agenda and propaganda of BDS you would not share a platform with those who support them. It’s like sharing a platform with Goebels supporters! Their propaganda and support for Hamas with its charter proposing Genocide of all Jews should make them a no go group for any sane person let alone sitting on a platform as though they had any legitimacy.
Dear Mr Jones
I apologise if i misrepresented you but could you please clarify what you meant when you said that the concept of being a “disloyal Jew” needed to be challenged? Why? There are 5 million Jews in America out of a population of some 300 million. Are those Jews so important to foreign policy? (You immediately spoke about opening up changes for foreign policy) What were you suggesting then?
And you and Hannah were only critical of BDS because you see it as ineffective. If you are morally against it why didn’t you say so? Are you morally against it?
Best wishes,
Richard
(To the tune of “Popeye the Sailor Man” . . . )
He’s Gertie the Nazi clown,
He lives in a Yorkshire town.
He wears high-heel boots and gives “Heil Hitler” salutes,
He’s Gertie the Nazi clown!!
Hi Lee,
You write, “Two people were very pro-BDS – Pappe and Chalcraft. The other three were critical, two of us (myself and Hannah Weisfeld) very much so….”
I live in Israel and unfortunately was unable to attend the debate, so I can only guess that what you said was taken horrifically out of context. This is because it certainly appeared to me too that you are another anti-Israel academic drawing absurd comparisons between Israel and South Africa or Rhodesia of the 70s and 80s – and that the extent of your criticism of the BDS was that they are not doing their job as well as they might be. Perhaps this might be the equivalent of someone hitting you and my “criticizing” the effectiveness of his chosen knuckle duster while recommending one of my own.
On the other hand it might well be that academia has reached such levels of insanity in the UK of 2012, that those who nonchalantly toss out phrases such as “Israel is able to get away with a lot of horrific things..” are now really considered to be the good guys, especially if they can show on Twitter that there are others even worse than they.
To be sure, I have no objections to your support for the BDS. Like myself, you live in what is still a free country and to do so is your prerogative. I was, however baffled by the indignant manner with which you reacted to Richard’s analysis.
Less shocked was I by your failure, as yet, to answer the simple question he asked you.
Here Pappe has been given free rein in the left wing, antisemitic Spanish press:
http://tinyurl.com/7z5vd2x
Look I know I’ve been away for a while and many of you will be thinking
“Oh here he is again. Back to insult whoever he can and then piss off ”
But I’m still gonna have my say and after skimming the hundred or so remarks to another superb article by Rich I have found that by far the most annoying responses were given by Brian Lux.
” I am not saying only blameless people deserve my support” You shout!
Sorry Baz (if I might call you Baz) but I feel I can safely say on behalf of The State of Israel that we really don’t give a toss if we have your support or not.
Though the article had nothing to do with the Karta Neturei (or as the rest of the world calls them the Neturei Karta) , you just had to get your twopence worth of Orthodox Jew bashing.
You boldly proclaim
“Being a member of a Reform synagogue, I cannot accept the reduction of women to third class, ie being told to sit at the back of a bus. We can agree to disagree, but Israel is losing its diaspora support(which it can’t afford) by allowing the ultra-orthodox so much liberty”
What’s being a member of a Reform Synagogue got to do with anything ? Are you saying that were you a member of an orthodox synagogue or the Church of the Holy Sepulchure you would support the reduction of women to third class? (by the way why third? Why did you jump over second?Why not fourth?)
How do you know what we can or cannot afford?
I don’t run around saying
“Brian Lux can’t afford the new ford escort he has been driving up and down the Kingsbury High street”
So please have the courtesy not to tell Israel what she can or cannot afford.
Yes they have lots of liberty those Ultra Orthodox.
They used to have segregated busses just like they have in New York (Maybe you should write a letter of complaint to Michael Bloomberg (Don’t forget to tell him that as a Reform Jew he’s losing your support)).
One of them spat and was since arrested.
And we even let them wear black hats.
You then shout from the highest mountain:
“Then we have the case of an eight years old girl spat on by the ultra-orhtodox in Israel because of her skirt length. Until Israel sorts out the enemy in its midst, then supporters in the diaspora, like myself, will increasingly say: ‘why bother?’”
What do you mean “Spat on by the Ultra Orthodox in Israel” ?
Do you mean that all the ultra orthodox In Israel spat on her?
What about those who were just visiting?
Did they take turns? Or was it just the Ultra Orthodox who happened to be around at the time?
It was in fact one “Ultra Orthodox” man who spat on one girl and was arrested.
What’s this nonsense about “enemy in it’s midst” ?
Please allow us to decide who our enemies are.
But the cream of the crop has to be
supporters in the diaspora, like myself, will increasingly say: ‘why bother?’””
Why bother what????
What great contribution have you ever made to the Jewish homeland that you have the gall to say “Why bother” ?
Trust me Baz we’ve managed without you for over 63 years we’ll probably just about survive another 63 without your 50 pence in the J.N.F box.
Sorry Baz we just don’t give a toss if you bother or not.
On a lighter note some great writing from Marks.
thanks Michael
what people like myself do may be as futile as any taking sides can be but it sure feels good to read guide lines from time to time that confirm one in one’s belief that one got the general direction right.
I think the people of Israel aka Israelis have done all in all an incredibly unbelieveably phantastic job in creating that country and making it work against odds nobody ever had to contend with anywhere anytime and that’s what I admire. Others may admire pop stars I admire the real achievements of your country and all the flaws that I am being told about are just chicken feed compared to the real stuff I am being told about.
My litmus test is if I had appendicitis in the middle of the mediterranean and had my choice of all its shores (including my country without a shore) which hospital would I prefer to go to?
Well the answer is of course Israel.
Myself having been an administrator by profession makes me take into account that a hospital means not only doctors’s skills but also administrators up to scratch. And that that decision would be so easy to take fills me with admiration day in day out.
Well Mr Goldman, you stay away and then you sock it to ’em! The liberal Lux deserves it all and more!
Brian Lux, take heed, this is the focus, not your desire to exert your liberal will on those you call ultra orthodox, as by doing so you are figuratively also spitting on someone.
Now for the real enemy –Â Qaradawi – Obama’s chief negotiator in Afghanistan:
This is the man who calls Israel “the land of Jihad” and whose only wish is to go there and shoot “Allah’s enemies, the Jews..” Â
…..and Obama tells us he is a friend of Israel! Â Well he might be, only he forgot to tell us that he wants regime change for Israel, the “land of Jihad” just as he has engineered in Egypt, Libya etc. Â
Excerpt:
“..Qaradawi returned to Egypt from a long exile following the fall of President Hosni Mubarak last year to preach the Friday sermon in Tahrir Square. “A message to our brothers in Palestine: I harbor the hope that just like God allowed me to witness the triumph of Egypt, He will allow me to witness the conquest of the al-Aqsa mosque, and will enable me to preach in the al-Aqsa Mosque.”
In a 2009 speech before the Arab Spring Qaradawi was less optimistic and merely hoped to die fighting the Jews: I’d like to say that the only thing I hope for is that as my life approaches its end, Allah will give me an opportunity to go to the land of Jihad and resistance, even if in a wheelchair. I will shoot Allah’s enemies, the Jews, and they will throw a bomb at me, and thus, I will seal my life with martyrdom.”..”
http://www.investigativeproject.org/3434/qaradawi-meets-hamas-leaders-predicts-victory
Goldman,
I’m reasonably sure that Baz is a more appropriate nickname for Basils, while if you wish to express your affection for Brian, Bri (or Bry) would be more precise.
Brian,
Anyway, Bri, Goldman does not represent all of us and I say that we do need your support very much. To that end I personally apologize on behalf of the bloke who spat and shall do my best to prevent similar discharges by either he, or any of the other 7,798,699 citizens my country.
As an ex-patriot and a staunch supporter of Britain I feel particularly upset watching rival football fans shouting obscenities at each other, “gobbing” and threatening grievous bodily harm as in, “You’re going to get your fu**ing head kicked in!”
I am married to a lady of Argentinean descent whose family is still quite furious with me for your inexcusable occupation of the Malvinas and until the UK sorts out the soccer hooligans in its midst, then supporters, like myself, will increasingly say: ‘Why bother?’
Sharon and Silke
As ever a pleasure talking to you.
Bri I apologize for the Baz mistake
Shabat Shalom to one and all
Hello Brian,
I am agreeing with you altogether! I saw many Zionist spittings and sneezings also.
I kiss your moustache,
Gamil
Howdy Gamil
is that perhaps you in the picture?
I hope no spittings or sneezings were directed at you.
http://elderofziyon.blogspot.com/2012/02/shhhh-jews-and-arabs-from-territories.html
Silke – fantastic!
How’s this for deligitimisation?
A Syrian tank decorated with pictures of Assad fires in all directions looking for someone…anyone to murder.
How many more innocents must die before the world intervenes?
How many more must die before the world gets it? Jordan is now about to explode too.