Milne, Alibhai-Brown, Llewellyn, Rowland listening to Jenny Tonge’s rant last night.
The reputation of the Jewish community was dragged through the gutter at last night’s book launch of The Battle for Public Opinion in Europe: Changing Perceptions of the Palestine-Israel Conflict. The event was staged by anti-Israel pressure group Middle East Monitor at the University of London’s Senate House.
The panelists were Tim Llewellyn (former BBC Middle East correspondent and now adviser to Council for the Advancement of Arab-British Understanding), Jackie Rowland (Al Jazeera correspondent) and Seumas Milne (The Guardian associate editor). Yasmin Alibhai-Browne (The Independent) chaired the event.
Llewellyn and Rowland described a persistent manipulation of the British broadcast media by a well-moneyed pro-Jewish lobby. Llewellyn said, inter alia, that:
“The BBC is very sparing in the amount of delegations or visitors it allows from the Palestinian side. Whereas from remarks that have been heard from the head of BBC News, Helen Boaden, the British Board of Deputies (of British Jews), for example, practically lives at the BBC. They’re there all the time.”
And:
“I was there (at the BBC) when we weren’t interfered with. But the last 10-12 years, since the beginning of the second Intifada, has coincided with Israel’s decision to mount a tremendously well organised, careful, assiduous and extremely well financed propaganda campaign in this country, especially in Britain.
The BBC has completely and utterly become feeble and has misreported, in my view; misrepresenting the situation in Israel-Palestine. It has done this maybe because of intense Israeli and pro-Israeli pressure from within this country, from political elements like the Friends of Israel of our three main political parties.
Also through the higher level of pro-Israel Zionists who are scattered at strategic points throughout the British establishment, throughout British business and among the people whose voices are respected.
The propaganda can sometimes be extremely intense, it can be bitter, it can be angry, it could be violent, it can be other forms of coercion. But it’s something the suits at the BBC find very hard to resist. So what has developed over the past 10 years at the BBC, and at other broadcasting institutions like ITN, not so much Channel 4, is a kind of self-censorship.
It is known now by the reporters if they are reporting on an atrocity by the Israelis, in the occupied territories or elsewhere, that they have to add on to the end of their story some kind of appeasing story of how terrible the Palestinians are or how the Israelis have suffered.”
And:
“The pressure of this Israeli campaign has had a tremendous effect, especially at the institutional level of the BBC and inside the political parties. These people are extremely tough, tough minded. I have just read a book by Anthony Lerman called The Making and Unmaking of a Zionist. If you studied the internecine warfare that goes on inside the Jewish community between the different groups; the anti-Zionists, the Zionists, the liberal Zionists, the non-Zionists, it is vitriolic, it is dreadful, I mean what chance have we got outside that community.”
Llewellyn even described Jews as “an alien people”. He said:
“The situation in Palestine now is the direct result of British deviousness, betrayal…dividing Syria in at least three parts; Lebanon, Syria as it is now, and Palestine, and setting the stage for the imposition and the implanting of an alien country, an alien people in that region.”
Rowland described how the BBC’s obligation for accountability, because it is publicly funded, has been “used and exploited by very well organised pro-Israeli, pro-Jewish lobby groups.”
She said that she knew someone who worked in the complaints department of the BBC who told her “that 85% of the complaints he dealt with were complaints by pro-Israeli, pro-Jewish lobby groups complaining about the perceived bias of the BBC’s Middle East coverage.”
She said this gives an idea of “how well organised, well funded people use the idea of public accountability to tie up a lot of BBC resources on one very narrow focus.”
Alibhai-Browne told of how she had been given a rent free home in England by Professor Hugh Blaschko for seven years after she fled Uganda and how he had said to her that “Israel will bring the worst out in us Jewish people”.
Alibahi-Browne also compared Israel to apartheid South Africa.
Milne said “there are well funded and well organised organisations that campaign in support of Israel. If you’re editing in these area you will find pressure and campaigning constantly by those groups.”
During the Q&A I couldn’t resist mentioning, seeing she was in the audience, that I took the footage that contributed to Jenny Tonge’s exit from the Liberal Democrats. In a bizarre outburst right at the end she took to the microphone to announce:
“I’d like to say, I hope he hasn’t gone, a big, big ‘thank you’ to Richard Millett, the Jewish Chronicle, the Board of Deputies of British Jews and the entire pro-Israel lobby who have relentlessly attacked me for eight years but making sure that the Palestinian cause gets heard.”
I have no problem at all with the Palestinian cause getting heard. The main problem for the Palestinians is that it is heard via the likes of Tonge, Milne, Rowland, Alibhai-Browne and Llewellyn.
Meanwhile, it will be interesting to clarify exactly what Helen Boaden did say that led to Llewellyn’s accusation that the Board of Deputies of British Jews “practically lives at the BBC”.
Click HERE for Jonathan Hoffman’s view of last night.
Click HERE for MEMO’s version with photos.
RichardMillett's Blog 
IF ONLY IT WERE TRUE!!!!!
@JAEvans
You took the words right out of my mouth!!!
It’s poor logic – that if you think the BBC is biased you must be starting from a partisan position. In fact it was noticing the subtle internal inconsistencies and odd emphases in the BBC coverage which made me start to take an interest in this issue.
Alibhai-Brown is an utter moron.
Speaking about implanting an alien people, they forgot to talk about Jordan. The Hachemites were implanted from Saudi Arabia to what was 80% of the Mandate. Is it possible that they missed that?
Speakiing of Jews as an “alien people” is also ignoring all the genetic studies showing the Middle East origin of the Jews. It is interesting to notice that there is a wide intersection between antisemites and pseudoscience believers. Their ignorance of science, scientific research, generates gullibility and facilitates brain-washing.
Jose, could you clarify what you mean by “It is interesting to notice that there is a wide intersection between antisemites and pseudoscience believers. Their ignorance of science, scientific research, generates gullibility and facilitates brain-washing.”?
I have noticed that most of who use the trem “pseudoscience” when attacking other beliefs are fanatical believers in Evolution. I hope you are not one of these. If you are, you have indeed been brainwashed (as I was until I began – during study for a science degree – to consider the actual scientific evidence for myself).
I reject the pseudoscience of Evolution AND support the right of Israel to exist: both of these on Biblical grounds as well as (in the case of Evolution) on scientific grounds. The land of Israel was given to Abraham and his heirs through Isaac and Jacob, NOT to Ishmael (although the Bible has promises concerning them too) .
It is better to believe what God, rather than foolish man, says about the early history of the world and of mankind, and also of Israel.
The Jews are special. Israel is special. Not because they or the land are anything in themselves, but because of GOD, his word and his promises.
JP, I guess you accept as fact that Mohammed flew on his horse to Heaven from the “farthest mosque”.
Try debating, debunking Koran scripture with an Imam.
Tgai, you said: ‘JP, I guess you accept as fact that Mohammed flew on his horse to Heaven from the “farthest mosque”.’
Tgai, what on earth are you talking about????!!!! I do not believe in such foolish myths, any more than in the evolutionist myth (originating apparently in ancient Greek philosophy) that everything made itself; or that in the beginning nothing exploded (the “Big Bang”) and became everything. As more of the complexity of life is discovered (especially on the molecular and biochemical level) evolution becomes more and more impossibly unlikely.
Louis Pasteur disproved abiogenesis (then called “spontaneous generation”) many years ago, but many scientists, who should know better, still cling to this blind faith in nothing.
That’s what I meant by brainwashing. It even hinders scientific advances – such as the idea that the appendix is a vestigeal organ with no purpose – or more recently the idea that much of our DNA is left-over “junk”. Even evolutionists have now had to accept that almost all that “junk” has many complex functions – control of gene expression for example (how, when and for how long a particular gene or set of genes is active).
To return to topic: anti-semitic brainwashing produces a similar kind of mental blindness, even in the most intelligent people. The myth that all Jews are evil or that Islam is a peaceful religion is blindly swallowed by many such.
There are no fanatical believers in accepted scientific theories, especially when there is no competing one. I don’t care about gods, I’m an atheist.
Of course, in the history of science, some defend old theories and some defend the new one. The best one wins. With religion, no such success, no such agreement, each speaking out of blind faith. That is why religion produced so many wars and why science brought so much to humanity.
I reject the pseudoscience of Evolution
Welcome to the 14th century.
So much of the doubt about Israel’s correctness comes from Jews who show an exquisite sensibility for the rights of others. Would that the other side were half as scrupulous. How pleasant a world we would be living in then.
Not sure: in fact there is a lot of Jew-washing. These precious Jews are put up front by the PR on the ‘other side’. They are the Jewish human shileds that protect them from the (very grounded) accusation of antisemitism, the useless idiots of this world. These Jews are just as antisemitic as the people who use them anyway, but how can anyone else understand that a ‘Jew’ can also be an antisemite?
Tim Llewellyn, your rant sounds better in the original German.
““The situation in Palestine now is the direct result of British deviousness, betrayal…dividing Syria in at least three parts; Lebanon, Syria as it is now, and Palestine…”
Well, that much is true anyway!
wasn’t there a bit of French deviousness involved also?
I dimly remember something about them deciding this day this and the next day that?
(probably mostly according to this book http://www.amazon.de/DESERT-QUEEN-Extraordinary-Gertrude-Adventurer/dp/1400096197/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1350728616&sr=8-2)
Another point re antisemtitism and antiZionism:
The existence of Israel and the Jews is literally a miracle. No other people group has EVER been driven from their land, somehow survived absorbtion into other nations and cultures, returned after so many centuries of exile and survived brutal attacks and attempts at extermination by many powerful enemies.
In the book of Isaiah (chapter 43 verses 10-12) God says that the Jews are his witnesses.
There is the story of an atheist who asked for just one proof for the existence of God. The answer came in two words – “The Jews”.
No wonder there is such hatred of Israel – it reflects a rejection of the true and living God (which Allah is NOT!) – even by those who call themselves religious Jews or Christians; and especially these days by Muslims.
__________________________________________________________
P.S. (sorry, off topic again!) it has now been discovered (after many years of assuming it was useless) that the appendix, like the tonsils (which can also become so badly infected that they have to be removed) is part of the immune system and also provides a refuge for “good bacteria” so they can repopulate the intestine quickly after illness. People without an appendix are apparently slower to recover from food poisoning, or the effects of antibiotics.
Right, I’m done! 🙂
Judaism predates both Christianity and Islam.
The terrible persecution of Jews by Christians (especially Christians) and Muslims over 2,000 years is based on the anger of Christians and Muslims over the fact that Jews do not accept the tenets of Christianity and Islam. And if Jews do not accept Christianity or Islam, why should anyone else?
Dear TGAI
Actually the first part of the Jewish scriptures predates Judaism too! 😛
I can sympathise with your anger at the centuries of persecution of Jews. It is especially shameful when done by Christians; or by those who are assumed to be or claimed to be Christians but were not.
But that makes no difference to the fact that Christianity, like Judaism, is based on the JEWISH scriptures and belief in the JEWISH Messiah.
Islam, by contrast is based on the writings of Muhammed, who chose one of the false idols worshipped at Mecca as his god. He had only a confused and corrupted understanding of both Jewish or Christian scriptures (having a renegade “Christian” priest as his father in law and one of his mentors probably didn’t help!)
I believe the JEWISH scriptures, not the Islamic. That includes the historical account (which fits the evidence far better than the evolutionary myth does), of how the world began, how man rebelled against God, the worldwide flood, the confusion of language and scattering of people at Babel and the early history of Abraham and his descendants who later became the Jews.
It also includes the many references to God’s continuing purpose for the nation and people of Israel. Which is the main point of this discussion.
The terrible persecution of Jews by Christians (especially Christians) and Muslims
There is a lot of whitewashing of Muslim persecution of Jews, especially during the mythical ‘Golden Age’ in Spain.
I suppose having a pogrom every 10 years is a ‘Golden Age’ compared to having one every 5 years.
Leah…where did yu get your MA in Victimology?
“Right, I’m done!”
Thank God! ;D
Of course, religion is not pseudoscience. It does not even try to hide it is not science. Some have made attempst to show how ‘scientific’ was their creeds, only to stumble ridiculously on the demonstration.
The difference is clear: science does not need blind faith, just accepted theories on condition that they work more or less. Evolution is just a framework, a set ot theories. Several life-mechanisms have been discovered since Darwin and have been incorporated in the framework without any trouble/. Intelligent design is in fact stupid crap and pure creationism is even more.
End of the “god” subject.
The important part of my theory is that pseudoscience believers, who are generally people who abandoned religion and found that to replace the ‘vaccum’ left, are also easily fooled by anything such as conspiracy theories, become ecology or homeopathy bigots. They are easy preys for antisemitism under the guise of (ultra) anti-zionism.
I found very few people with scientific background in the antisemitic croud, mostly people with a literary one or none at all. The big majority is still the ultra-religious right-wing Christians and the Islamists, of course.
I would not be surprised if these Jews used as the PR front were pseudoscience believers, ecologists who rejected family religion at some point of their early life.
Telling such lies is incitement to racial hatred. There are laws against this in Britain and these people need to be challenged in court.
Jose, sorry to disappoint you, I’m not quite finished – mostly because of your reply.
I agree with a couple of your points. for example:
“I found very few people with scientific background in the antisemitic crowd, mostly people with a literary one or none at all.”
Thank you! As a scientist I’m very glad of that! 😀
You said: “Several life-mechanisms have been discovered since Darwin and have been incorporated in the framework without any trouble”
Can you give specific examples? Usually a problem in incorporating new data to an existing hypothesis is ignored or explained away if it contradicts the party line (politicians and anti-semites do this all the time too – perhaps we all do to some extent – even the most honest of us.)
You also said: “The difference is clear: science does not need blind faith, just accepted theories on condition that they work more or less. ”
You are right – science doesn’t need blind faith, it needs observational and experimental evidence.
That’s why I think that Evolution on the grand scale (the idea of life arising spontaneously and getting gradually more and more complex) has itself all the hallmarks of a RELIGION, (or rather a brainwashing religious cult) not science. It doesn’t even “more or less” work, yet many people believe it anyway! (I did put some examples of how it can’t work, but this post is too long already).
But what if the scientific evidence IS in line with what happens to be believed as part of a religion? In that case it is mere bigotry to reject it as “Pseudoscience”.
The state of the world is EXACTLY what one would expect if the Genesis account of origins were true. Evidence such as an incredibly beautiful and complex world, yet spoiled and deteriorating (not all directly to do with man’s activities). Evidence for catastrophic worldwide destruction in the past, (earthquakes, volcanic activity, huge tectonic upheaval and breaking apart of a supercontinent; massive destruction by huge volumes of fast flowing water resulting in millions of fossils – many of them buried suddenly before they had time to decompose or be eaten by scavengers. Evidence of a limited number of distinct kinds of living things, which were able to diversify and adapt to different environments (this is sometimes confused with evolution, but produces no new genetic information, merely shuffles and changes what already exists). Evidence of a limited number of language groups (think the Tower of Babel) that are obviously related within the group but unrelated to any other group.
OK, really am finished now – at least for today, have spent far too long on this already…
Specifc example such as direct transfers of DNA from bacteria to bacteria (not just though geneitc descendance)? Yes, I can give you specific examples.
Well, if you think Eviolution is a religion, then you’re not a scientist and you know very little about it. But that is somehow the case with relgious people: they confuse theories (and in this case a framework of theories) with faith and in the case of religion, blind faith.
The state of the word is NOT as the account of Genesis, OF COURSE, and everyone knows it. And in millions of respects. I never discuss ludicrous religious drivel so, you won’t have any answer to it. Sorry, no time for that.
Don’t worry: I knew you weren’t done before you told me. And I guess you are ready for another one soon.
Jose, I don’t want to prolong this, and this will have to be my last post on the subject as you are obviously determined to cling to your beliefs whatever anyone says.
Do you REALLY imagine that “direct transfers of DNA from bacteria to bacteria (not just though geneitc descendance)”[sic] is evidence of evolution?
You seem to have forgotten or never understood that I am NOT talking about the fact that living things change genetically through natural selection, gene transfer (as in your example) mutations etc but the idea that, in the unobservable past, life arose spontaneously and increased progressively in complexity).
Gene transfer between bacteria is merely an example of rearrangement of genetic material that ALREADY EXISTS. Of course bacteria can transfer genetic material between each other. That makes for more variety, but the net complexity is not increased.
In no way does it explain how such complex coded molecules as DNA came into existence in the first place. Chemically it is impossible for DNA bases to organise themselves in a specific sequence by merely random processes. Even if they did, they would be destroyed almost as soon as they are made, if not protected by complex mechanisms within a cell. And the proteins etc that control this operation are themselves coded on the DNA! Neither can exist without the other.
So you have the classic chicken-egg riddle that cannot be explained in evolutionary terms. There is even a $1,000,000 prize offered by evolutionary scientists – still unclaimed of course! See http://www.us.net/life/
Part of the introduction is worth quoting, as it confirms what I have been saying:
The prize is “awarded for proposing a highly plausible natural-process mechanism for the spontaneous rise of genetic instructions in nature sufficient to give rise to life. The explanation must be consistent with empirical biochemical, kinetic, and thermodynamic concepts as further delineated herein, and be published in a well-respected, peer-reviewed science journal(s).
Progress in life-origin research has been greatly impeded by a few key nagging problems. Biochemical constraints render many appealing theoretical models non productive. These biochemical constraints have received the most attention in scientific literature. Self-replication has been another subject of considerable research, although successes in this area have usually come from very artificial rather than natural-selection models. But perhaps the most daunting of all life-origin problems is elucidating a natural mechanism for “self-organization.” Self-ordering is often confused with bona fide organization.”
Stephen Sizer reports on the meeting here:
http://stephensizer.blogspot.co.uk/2012/10/the-battle-for-public-opinion-in-europe.html
This part is very funny.
It was fascinating to hear correspondents from the Independent, Guardian, Al Jazeera and BBC discuss changing perceptions of the Palestine-Israel Conflict and agree with each another on almost every issue.
Quelle surprise!
the Hoffman link just links to the front page of the JC
The BBC is mere months away from openly calling for an expulsion of Jews from England. It’s 1290 all over again. The government will call it ‘free speech’. Small-ish pogroms and Kristalnacht type violence to commence in a year following that. The government will double down and demand the Jews ‘negotiate’ for their very lives in order to ‘calm emotions in the community’. By 2020 the only Jews remaining in the UK will be the revenant of those too old or too stubborn to leave. And make no mistake, it will at most, pass w/o comment or any effort to block it on the part of the government. More likely though creeping sharia will openly cheer from the halls of Commons.
Hi Empress Trudy,
Might I humbly suggest that you focus your predictions regarding what shall befall the UK on a century from now rather than “by 2020”. That way, by the time you’re proven wrong, you’ll either be deceased, the readers of this blog will, or you’ll be too senile to remember those prophesies.
However I was surprised by your use of the phrase “Small-ish pogroms and Kristalnacht (sic) type violence…”
At least 91 Jews were killed in the attacks, and a further 30,000 arrested and incarcerated in concentration camps.Jewish homes, hospitals, and schools were ransacked, as the attackers demolished buildings with sledgehammers. Over 1,000 synagogues were burned (95 in Vienna alone), and over 7,000 Jewish businesses destroyed or damaged. – Wikipedia
It is true that the Night of Broken Glass” pales into insignificance in comparison to the Final Solution, but so does everything. In 1938 it was certainly by far the worst pogrom in living memory.
and I assume the probably best organised ever
I read a booklet from one of those small town history clubs – from that I concluded that the marauders had been briefed beforehand and then without receiving an explicit order knew upon something happening (not not the pogrom getting started in Berlin) to set out and thoroughly ransack the assigned targets in their allotted town i.e. they knew long beforehand at what time to meet and where
It was orchestrated GeneralStabsMäßig as we’d say in German which translates roughly into generals’ staff style.
Pogroms? Kristallnacht? What absurd hysteria! The Holocaust is over. Drop it. To use these terms with reference to British society is nothing short of obscene and and insult to the dead.
James,
I have made clear above that I do not agree with Empress Trudy’s predictions, but I consider your patronizing attempt to talk on behalf of six million Jewish victims and determine what “insults” them or not to be infinitely more offensive.
Like every Jew of my generation, and though born after the Holocaust was supposedly “over”, I am its product. Deep down in the unholy defiled earth of one of Hitler’s death camps is a tiny deposit of ashes that was once a man and once bore my name – he was my great-grandfather. I didn’t know him and would never dare to speak in his name nor to claim to know what flattered him or what insulted him. Who exactly are you to speak on behalf of him or 6,000,000 like him?
The gas chambers and mass crematoriums were destroyed many decades ago and the cattle trucks to Auschwitz have long ago stopped running, but I lack your sanguine confidence that “the Holocaust is over”. It will be over when its lessons are finally learned.
James, are you Jewish? If not, it’s extremely obscene of you to decide what is and what isn’t an insult to MY murdered family members.
Generally, you sound like a hateful twerp who denies that Jews have suffered persecution for many centuries. It’s very clear what you are.
I would say that whether James is Jewish or not he’s made a rather silly comment, it happens to all of us on occasions, so now may be as good a time as any for him to just apologize and move on.
No I am not going to apologise. That’s for Empress Trudy to do. Shame on her for dishonouring those who died in the Holocaust with such cheap and opportunistic sensationalism.
Jimmy,
When you’re in a pit, the first thing to do is to stop digging.
You have showed a great insensitivity in purporting to speak on behalf of six million Holocaust victims and then compounded it with your last infantile comment. Now is the time to be a man and acknowledge your mistake so that we can all move on.
“The BBC is mere months away from openly calling for an expulsion of Jews from England.”
Really? How many months?
Hi Jose,
I wouldn’t read the beginning of Genesis too literally. You may want to look over the first Ramban of the Torah:
http://shesileizeisim.blogspot.co.il/2012/10/breishis-message-of-genesis.html
Regarding the subject of the blog, I can only echo early comments made and say, were that it were so! Imagine if we really had a well-oiled Israeli propaganda machine and a highly mobilized Anglo-Jewry comprised of fanatical supporters of Israel.
As a child arguing with anti-Semites at Hyde Park I was accused of being in the pay of the Israeli embassy and similar charges were leveled against friends and I when picketing Soviet diplomats who visited Israel in the 1970s. Needless to say, I never saw a penny – though forever living in hope. Incidentally, neither did I ever see a brass farthing from the much celebrated international Jewish bankers’ plot.
Nor is the tactic of accusing the Jew of having an unfair advantage anything new. The same Arabian gentlemen at Speakers’ Corner, unable to explain Israel’s military victories over of so many enemies on so many occasions claimed that the US had won the wars for Israel. I’ve always been perplexed how at times we are the puppet of American imperialism while on other days the various US administrations have been the puppets of Zionism.
Still on the subject of the BBC, I saw Jack Straw being interviewed with the publication of his new book. Apparently, he entered office with much good will towards Israel, which we only squandered by our disrespectful behavior (my paraphrasing). The best bit was when he said, “Nobody wishes to see any harm befalling Israel” – Ye mate. from which planet did you just land?
this piece reminded me that at Israel’s beginning the Soviet Union was friendly towards her. I keep my fingers crossed that this is again the beginning of a useful friendship.
But in this context do you remember having ever come across an accusation of the SU being the Zionists’ puppies or vice versa?
http://blogs.the-american-interest.com/wrm/2012/10/19/russia-and-israel-sitting-in-a-tree/
I wouldn’t read anything in the religious field and believe it is correct. Especially when it contradicts all known data and all scientific theories of the day.
The problem of antisemitic bias is unfortunately nothing new. Nor is the use of Jews as a front for attack on other Jews. It is recorded in the history of Metzada. At least, these Jews were slaves and doing the job reluctantly.
The Jews of today are used in more subtle ways. Their hate of Israel come from their unability to cope in a world so openly hostile to Israel. A monstruous Stockholm syndrome pushing them to side with the haters in a vain attempt to lower their hate. They even go as far as to deny this explicit antisemitic hate up to a point of self-delusion.
Jose,
Why not give it a go and read it anyway? Too much knowledge rarely does much harm.
Regarding our brothers in the Galut, while I understand where you’re coming from, but don’t you think you may be being just a tad too harsh? Isn’t it a little overly-simplistic to turn all our opponents into either Jew-haters or their lackeys?
I do hope the expression of such an opinion, that is not in full agreement with yours, won’t cause you to call me nasty names too.
Too much knowledge rarely does much harm.
Tell that to lots of Bio-Germans many of whom to this day are fully convinced that too much learning is likely to seriously damage the brain.
Hi Silke,
I was careful to cover my bases by using the most circumspect “rarely” and “much harm” rather than the brash though wholly accurate:
“Too much knowledge never does any harm.”
By the way, I’m expecting a guest next month; a certain lady whose name might be anagramed as “Tearoom Borer”.
To be honest I didn’t tackle the anagram – wouldn’t have stood a chance – I am German after all – but I checked my archives – and therefore say hello to the borer for me, kiss her on both cheeks and tell her that my soft spot is still solid
Hi Silke,
I kiss only wife, daughters, and a certain wife’s aunt from Holon called Rosa, but I’ll be sure to send your fondest regards.
Daniel
I was of course thinking of kisses (bises) the how-to of which I learned in Paris and with which never skin touches skin and which are a very polite and cordial way of avoiding hand shakes which I dislike heartily especially those which so often demand to be accompanied by a sincerety promising or demanding eye contact.
Religion is not part of knowledge but of faith. I’m not interested in the least, just as I am not interested in testing homeopathy,or any New Age cult.
Opponents of what? There are the same kind of anti-Israel people in Israel. Two of them were caught on the fraud boat Estelle.
What nasty names, Mark?
sorry, religion isn’t only part of faith, it is also an inextricable part of my inherited cultural package, of the culture I love and wouldn’t want to do without, no matter how much I might rail against religious institutions from time to time when they try to interfere with what I consider my human rights.
Take religion out of the civilization I am happy to live in and it will start to look more than a bit bleak.
Richard Dawkins & Co are incoherent ranters.
Dawkins is about 1000 times more intelligent and coherent than you, Silke, that’s for sure. Religion is the worst curse in the history of humanity: a mishmash of superstitions, oppression and cruelty.
Ok. I’m going to have to close the comments. This is getting too nasty.
I beg to differ – I have listened extensively to Dawkins, Harris, Dennett und Hitchens. Until recently I thought Dennett was the one from the lot who had something interesting to contribute. When he appeared on the Philosopher’s Zone I found out I was wrong about him also.
But I have to grant you one thing Dawkins certainly is a better showman than I am and the thingy he put on with his wife some years ago was highly amusing and certainly had some hypnotising quality to it, exactly as any good church service would supply.
Jonathan describes Seumas Milne as ‘a decent guy 1-1’.
Are you all right, Jonathan?
Hi Jose,
“A monstruous (sic) Stockholm syndrome pushing them to side with the haters in a vain attempt to lower their hate.” – It’s hardly flattering.
Regarding what you write about religion, with all due respect, I suspect that you know as much about Judaism as I do about nuclear physics.
“Religion is not part of knowledge but of faith.”
Firstly, if you were to say that faith is a part or prerequisite for acceptance of religious beliefs, though I might not fully agree, I’d understand your viewpoint, but you’ve reversed it and made religion a part of faith. What does that mean. Is the acquiring of religious belief, to your mind, a prerequisite for
acceptance of any “faith” be it divine or not?
Secondly, you see religion and knowledge as being somehow divorced, but does apply to all types of knowledge. How can a person be religious while having no knowledge, at least of the demands of his religion? While my knowledge of Christianity and Islam is only rudimentary at best, I do know something of Judaism and all authentic Jewish texts require a Jew to study Torah (in its broadest sense) not only as a means to properly adhere to G-d’s laws, but as a commandment in itself. How can you say that knowledge is not part of religion (which is what I assume you meant)?
Daniel,
Having a Stockholm syndrome is neither flattering nor insulting, as far as I know. Siding with haters is aslo a fact that cannot be denied, or do you think Hamas are nice people? So, I repeat my question, where are the nasty NAMES (ie name-calling).
I know about Judaism just as much as I want and as I never entered in any discussion about religion, you cannot know how much I know. Religion requires faith and I see no difference between each of them in that respect.
Many other cults require faith; pseudosciences, New Age cults, that are not traditionally called “religion”. All those are classified in the faith basket, where I trash them usually.
Of course religion not serving any purpose (I mean if religious people were better than atheist, there would not be so many of the former in prisons), it and being basically fantasy, it is not part of knowledge. Faith, literature are the best labels I can ascribe to ot.
Jose,
A stockholm syndrome is a terrible afflication. In so far as it is involuntary, it is neither flattering nor insulting, but it causes rather dim people to side with vicious gangsters.
of course it can happen only to dim people since nobody has ever heard of an intelligent person getting scared out of his or her wits – sarc off
Exactly. That is exactly the meaning I used.
The worst labels being stupidities, delusions, un-sane and of course in somes cases, outright insane.
Jose,
I don’t know you personally, but I like most of the things you write very much and I admire your energy and conviction very much.
However, you may want to consider either not expressing views about Judaism at all or to learn a little about it before expressing an opinion. Instead, you have adopted a “hit and run” approach, first making the most outrageously ignorant statements:
“With religion, no such success, no such agreement, each speaking out of blind faith. That is why religion produced so many wars and why science brought so much to humanity.”
And then announcing:
“I know about Judaism just as much as I want and as I never entered in any discussion about religion, you cannot know how much I know…”
Even more absurdly you group all religions and faiths together:
“Many other cults require faith; pseudosciences, New Age cults, that are not traditionally called “religion”. All those are classified in the faith basket..”
I guess the main thing they all have in common is that you seem to be equally ignorant regarding them all.
No Jose, Judaism is not just Christianity with a Star of David instead of a cross, a synagogue instead of a church and Hanuka instead of Christmas. Like it or hate it, accept it or reject it, but don’t make daft group-classifications and generalizations out of laziness.
A final thought. You live in Israel, a country surrounded by hundreds of millions of people who wish to kill you, not because you’re an Israeli, but because you’re a Jew. You or your children may have to one day fight again, and perhaps die, in the sands of the Sinai or the Golan Heights to prevent the annihilation of the world’s only Jewish state.
Would it be so inappropriate to check out for yourself what being Jewish actually means?
Again, Daniel, you don’t know the extent of my knowledge of Judaism. I don’t ask you if Judaism is different from Christianity. I TELL YOU that I consider both irrelevant and are thus directed to the faith basket.
You also assume that I am a Jew while I never stated it. I’m not sure either that you know where I live. Anyone can experience antisemitism by wearing a kippa and walking in the streets of any European capital. So, no need to be a Jew for that, just need to have some courage.
You know what Jose? You’re right.
There was something in your writing that convinced me that you were a young Israeli Jew, but the truth be told, I have absolutely no idea what it was. Your silly “I mean if religious people were better than atheist (sic), there would not be so many of the former in prisons..” sounded like a typical secular Israeli kid talking, but on reflection it could have been anyone else too.
Like I said, you’re right. I had assumed that you are Jewish and Israeli, but maybe you’re not. Secular Israelis (especially younger ones) are famously ignorant regarding Judaism and you certainly seem to qualify on that score, but then irreligious Diaspora Jews often know even less.
Anyway, if you are neither Israeli Israeli nor Jewish, you have my unqualified apology and either way I still enjoy reading your comments about Israeli affairs, in which you demonstrate great knowledge and wisdom.
My ‘silly’ (sic) etc. was a factually true statement. Anyone with some knowledge of the prison populations could have said the same.
So you’ll have to have to argument your silly opinion that it was a silly statement.
I avoid stating that I am a Jew or not, Israeli or not, because haters automatically suppose that pro-Israel means “Jew” and/or “Israeli”, despite the fact that they use some of them for Jew-washing. This, in itself, is a proof of their bigotry and racism. And I enjoy when they do it.
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I think it was Leah who said:
“Dawkins is about 1000 times more intelligent and coherent than you, Silke, that’s for sure. Religion is the worst curse in the history of humanity: a mishmash of superstitions, oppression and cruelty.”
Depends on what you define as “religion”, and how closely those who claim to be adherents to that religion follow the tenets, and actual behaviour, of its founder.
Most Jews and Christians don’t follow even closely the tenets of their faith, or the example of their founders. Don’t blame the religion for that!
Most Muslims don’t follow Muhammed’s example either- thankfully – or we maybe would all find ourselves forced to convert, murdered or enslaved by now!
Much of Atheism has religious characteristics too. Hitler set himself up as a god, with all the trappings of a religion; and many scientists practically worship Darwin. And how many thousands of people visited Lenin’s tomb before it was removed, and bowed the knee and wept and kissed above his coffin with real religious fervour? Far more people (including – perhaps especially – Jews and Christians) have perished under atheistic Communism than under Hitler or the Spanish Inquisition.
As for superstitions, there was apparently a study done which showed that deeply religious people from the Judeo-Christian tradition were LESS likely to believe foolish superstitions (lucky horseshoes, touching wood, UFO’s, horoscopes, spiritualism, etc etc etc) than atheists or agnostics were!
I might add that most of the mass murderers over the past century were atheists; Mao, Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, etc.
And that’s in a word in which 88% of whose inhabitants believe in a god of some sort.
JP you play the damn if you do, damn if you don’t game with religion. If someone religious do something good, then you credit religion. when they do wrong, it’s because they don’t really follow religion close enough.
Ludicrous.
Now something more sinister. When it comes to Muslims, religion is bad so you are happy that Muslims DON’T follow their religion.
That is what I call double standards.
And to correct your factoids, it is the Catholics that are less likely to believe in OTHER superstitions because their DOGMA forbids it.
Anyway, ipeople have a limit of ridiculous beliefs that can fit their brains. No doubt some religions fulfill that task better than others and thus does not allow much more. That is why those who rejected religion tend to replace it with pseudoscientific ridiculous beliefs.
HAHAHA, the mass-murderers were atheists. I never heard that Hitler was an atheist, nor Stalin. Two wrong out of three. Any more like this? I hope you don’t make statistics on three people. Because that would REALLY be silly,
Here is some data on Hitler…
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_views_of_Adolf_Hitler;
“Adolf Hitler was raised by a Christian Catholic father and a devout Catholic mother; he ceased to participate in the sacraments after childhood. In his book Mein Kampf and in public speeches he often made statements that affirmed a belief in Christianity.”
Probably he did not practice it well or enough! LOL!
his (Hitler’s) father at least once beat him half to death. With some sons experiences like that create a bit of a dislike. – he persecuted the church, members of the curch/clergy when he felt he could get away with it and he sucked up to them when he considered it suitable and some of his best friends were … (like the doctor who took care of his mother during her last illness).
His regime was strongly in favour of weaning people away from church membership, to become “gottgläubig” (god believing) instead of protestant and probably catholic also was quite the fashion.
You should read the defenders of Pius XII on why the pope felt it necessary to do business with Hitler/the Nazis. I am sure there you’ll find much evidence of Hitler’s devoutness.
I confess I don’t know whether he was a confessing believer in atheism but he surely ran a government very much in favour of it unless it indulged in reviving old Germanic cults.
I think I read it in Hannah Arendt that the hallmark of any totalitarian regime is, that it is utterly confusing making sure that nobody can be held responsible and thus make populations believe, like many Germans did, that “if only the Führer knew” this, that or the other (which after the war they had never known anything about) wouldn’t happen or have happened.
Whether replacing God by the party doctrine disqualifies them from being atheists is up to definition. Of course the “pure” atheists in Richard Dawkins & Co. style or the different “humanistic” societies are not in any way tainted by their ancestry. They are much to holier than thou for that.
And for Stalin, the picture is a little more complex, but you can see the situation I described about people leaving their religion and replacing it with other creeds, even more toxic.
http://freethoughtnation.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=334%3Awere-stalin-hitler-and-pol-pot-atheists :
“Josef Stalin’s “very religious” mother named him after St. Joseph, and wanted him to become a priest. Stalin himself supposedly claimed that his father had been a priest, and he was purportedly “damaged by violence” while being “raised in a poor priest-ridden household.” As a youth, Stalin spent five years in a Greek Orthodox seminary, after which he purportedly renounced his religion. In his later years, Stalin apparently embraced Christianity once more.”
The story doesn’t say if it was at this time that Stalin started to kill so many people. But I guess it was because Stalin practice too little or too bad.
We follow not Christ, but Horst Wessel,
Away with incense and Holy Water,
The Church can go hang for all we care,
The Swastika brings salvation on Earth.
(Horst Wessel was an early Nazi party Sturmabteilung
http://www.bede.org.uk/hitler.htm
Horst Wessel also was a “martyr” and a poet (up to this moment I didn’t know that he actually had been the author of the original lyrics)
And I just noticed that both the first stanza of our national hymn as well as the first one of the Horst-Wessel-thingy which, Wikipedia tells me, wee always sung one after another from 1933-1945 do neither mention nor hint at God or any other heavenly power.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horst-Wessel-Lied
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horst_Wessel
PS for José – I am an agnostic – I was born to and raised by parents who had quit the church and become “gottgläubig”.
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Well, I note that you prefer believing ONE Christian supporter rather than Wikipedia. My choice is rather different. Do you want another source?
My post on Stalin was ‘moderated’ so you could not read it, ttw.
I guess we’ve gone off topic and it may be harder than I thought to establish whether these characters were atheists or not.
It would have been more accurate to have said that none of the (numerically) greatest murderers of the last century killed in the name of any god or religion. Most people were butchered in the name of National Socialism or Communism.
Unfortunately, with the spread of radical Islam this may soon change.
national socialism and communism – both forms of Socialism.
Socialist hitler / Socialist Stalin Non-Aggression pact of 1939.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitler_Stalin_Pact
National Socialism and Communism have a religious structure, even if they are godless religions. They all require absolute faith.
so does atheism
Atheism being the absence of any religion has no religious structure.
Some atheists, usually ex-religious, replace their rejected religion with another (Nazism, Communism, Ecologism, New Age cults, etc.).
As such, they are not real atheists, just converted to another godless religion.
Richard,
for the first time in many weeks I dared to cautiously lift my head above the parapet to see if the coast is clear. Have those baneful cads really gone for good or are they simply hibernating?
I was tempted to comment on the post by James Griffin who appears to be over zealous about the good name of England, is that his only motive, I wonder? He would like all Jews to drop the subject of the Holocaust. As a result of personal experiences, I’m a bit of an expert on the matter. I see he would like me to drop the subject while some of us are still around. Why, what bothers you?
Firstly, I would like to make it clear that I’ve always been grateful to this country for giving me shelter after the war, when my own motherland, Poland, jilted me. But this is no longer the same place I landed in over 66 years ago, for reasons that I shan’t go into here. Unlike today, this country did not have an open door policy; only a few hundred children below the age of 15 were allowed in and each had to have a guarantor so we would not become a charge on the state. I chose to remain here, though I could have gone on anywhere I wanted and many did.
I like to think I’ve always been a loyal citizen, but unlike James, I can be objective about my adoptive country. I would go as far as to say that had the Germans landed here, the British would have handed over their Jews no different from the other countries. The only country that behaved honorably was Denmark, though they too only saved Danish citizens. It was the British Bobbies in the Channel Isles, in their familiar helmets, who handed over the handful of Jews to the German authorities, though unlike in Europe, British documents didn’t state the person’s religion. Sure, there would have been some resistance, here and there, and no doubt there would have been a few Righteous Britons honored in Jerusalem for saving Jews, but that’s about it.
Late in the war, Himmler, perhaps to save his own neck, secretly negotiated with the Allies to free a few thousand hapless Jews. The Americans were for it, but the British representative vetoed it, “lest the gates of Auschwitz be opened wide!” Furthermore, the British never allowed any fugitives in during the war from Europe.
@ TGIAI
National Socialism is indeed Nazism; it stands in German for NAT-SOC i.e. NA-ZI that they themselves coined.
As for who was responsible or more deaths; Hitler or Stalin; they were both monsters but Hitler wins that one hands down. He planned for and started the war that resulted in over 60 million deaths. Stalin turned into more of a monster as time went on. We must not forget that in Europe during the Thirties, only in the Soviet Union did Jews enjoy full equality ever since the revolution.
Hitler marked out every Jewish man woman and child in Europe for death. Whereas the communists under Stalin saved many thousands who fled East to Russia who would not have otherwise survived. True, some were sent to Siberia but only for political but not for racial reasons, anyhow, they survived.
I was freed by the Red Army and it was they who bore the brunt of the war. The Soviets suffered more casualties in just one battle than all the Allied armies put together during the entire war. Had Hitler not turned on Russia when he did, he would have won the war.
.
RK, And if national Socialist nazi Germany didn’t declare War on the US first, just four days after Imperial Japan attacked Pear Harbor, the US would have stayed out of the European WW2 longer.
The isolationist, anti-war groups in the US were very influential, until Pearl Harbor and 12/11/41.
I once saw a TV program on the Russian view of WW2. They said that the Soviets had Russian prisoner brigades. The Soviet Army/Stalin told the prison brigade to charge the nazis. If the prisoners would run back, they would be shot by the Soviets. The nazis were shocked by how wildly they were attacked by Russian troops (prisoner brigades). The Russian troops got lots of Vodka for courage.
And when the war was ending, the German ran to the Western armies, fleeing the advancing Soviet Army who they knew would take retribution for nazi crimes against Russia.
TGIAI
keeping shooting commandos in the rear of one’s own troops was also done in at least one battle by Hapsburgian Austrians somewhere in the vicinity of Triest.
that those who had to charge at Stalingrad with shooting commandos in their backs to keep them from turning around were prisoner brigades is new to me – all I’ve heard up to now is that those were Russian soldiers, some of them armed with just shovels.
I saw it on TV a number of years ago. It was WW2 from the Russian perspective, in English.
Welcome home Rubin! We’ve all missed you.
Reblogged this on and commented:
Former BBC man Llewellyn and Rowland promote the fantasy of a persistent manipulation of the British broadcast media by a well-moneyed pro-Jewish lobby. The old anti-Semitism of the Middle Ages is alive and well in the modern British chattering-classes!
The constant Israel and Jew bashing by the BBC proves that the claim that Jews control the media in the UK is more racist claptrap worthy of Der Strumer and its modern day counterparts, Der Guardian, Der New Statesman.
In view of the latest news emerging from the high echelons of the Beeb, it would now be quite in order to add to TGIAI’s impressive list:
Guardians of Child Molesters or Bolshie Buggers Corporation!
PS. Richard, according to the Oxford Concise, the term ‘bugger’ need not be coarse – its used in the best of circles!
Any other suggestions initials BBC stand for?
Today I saw a link to the Savile disgrace that blamed him on Israel. Greater hate hath no man but false child abuse allegations against Jews and friends of Jews are not uncommon on hate sites. But then is there anything false against Jews that is uncommon anywhere? There are too few pockets of reason and rectitude. Or even even-handedness.
It is a pity that the worst of social media output can’t be ignored. But it can’t when real lives as some have pointed out above are or have been or will be at stake. Lies fool the ignorant and ill-willed but the “reason” for the unspeakable murder of Daniel Pearl shouldn’t be forgotten.
Here we go again…..more absurd Holocaust references. To compare the Guardian and New Statesman to Der Sturmer is just pure hysteria and displays an abject lack of integrity and something way beyond mere disingenuousness. Take another look TGIAI at an edition of Der Sturmer and an edition of the above newspapers and if you still want to draw the same equivalence, then you are practising a form of malevolent mendacity.
I will let TGIAI answer this one, since it’s addressed to him, but do you not possess any imagination at all or wit? If you didn’t like his post, you certainly won’t like mine above.
By the way, you have not answered my question; what’s your problem with the Holocaust – what is it that bugs you so?
Daniel – thanks for the welcome – I missed you too. i may be short lived though; we may have another one here… Merde alors!
Rubin: What is it about the Holocaust that bugs me? Are you serious? I think it might have something to do with the industrialised mass-murder of 6 million Jews plus the cold-blooded killing of 6 million gentile civilians over a 12 year period. Trite and facile comments like TGIAI’s in the face of the enormity of such horror are utterly reprehensible because they trivialise the suffering. And Richard should be pulling him up on this.
If your only motive is not to trivialize the Holocaust and the other victims then I stand corrected. You didn’t explain yourself properly and some of us are rather suspicious of such statements. However, if that is so, why try to block out their memory? Personally, I am very touchy about this subject. If you really revere their memory, as I do, why drop any reference to them; this is hardly the way to honour the dead. If it were possible to ask all those victims, I wonder how many would say they would rather be forgotten? Every Jewish family originating from Europe had at least some of their relatives murdered in the foulest way.
You wrote: “The Holocaust is over. Drop it.” Is it really over? The mad Mullas are planning another one and make no secret of it, and the world doesn’t care, as they didn’t last time round. They boast that Israel is one-bomb country and how convenient they sneer, with Six Million all in the one place…! Have you not seen placards carried on the streets of London calling for another Holocaust with policemen escorting the demonstrators. I wonder if you or I carried a placard calling for the destruction of all Moslems or any other people – would the police tolerate it?
And lastly, you talk of another six million Gentile victims. Surely you are not talking of combatants? Who exactly do you mean, how did they die and for what reason? We know about the Gypsies, but they didn’t add up to anything like six million, who else died because of who their parents were? We know that those who kept their noses clean and heads down, survived the war. And those who opposed the Nazis were sent to concentration camps, but only Jews were sent to the gas. So please explain!
.
I should have finished with this quotation:
“TO FORGET THE DEAD WOULD BE AKIN TO KILLING THEM A SECOND TIME.” Elie Wiesel
Rubin,
The Holocaust is indeed a problematic subject for our detractors. Many of them look at themselves in the mirror boycotting Israeli businesses or accusing Jews of intentionally killing non-Jewish children and the reflection they see is of a Nazi monster. Of course there are differences – huge differences, and thank G-d since these days we’ve learned a lot more about looking after ourselves, but that’s still the reflection that they see. The answer, of course, is Holocaust denial. It comes in different forms, several of which have been well illustrated on this blog.
Abu Mazen (our most moderate and lovable peace partner) argued in his doctoral thesis that “fewer than a million Jews had been killed in the Holocaust, and that the Zionist movement played a role in their slaughter.” More extreme Iranian leaders deny it happened altogether.
There also are those who will acknowledge the Holocaust, but will immediately seek to belittle and trivialize it by comparing it to everything under the sun. A few years ago I almost threw an American man of the cloth out of my house when he compared a highway checkpoint on the Jerusalem-Maale Adumim highway to Auschwitz.
Then there is the putting the Holocaust on a pedestal technique. The same people who are fighting against the existence of the only Jewish state in the world pretend that they consider the Holocaust to be so special and scared that it must never be discussed in any other context, as if its mere mention might somehow defile the holy gas chambers; “To use these terms with reference to British society is nothing short of obscene and and insult to the dead.” A variation on this method requires accusing the pro-Israel speaker of “playing the Holocaust card” – this time implying that the murder of 6,000,000 Jews is somehow being used by Israel as a convenient political weapon.
Yes, Holocaust denial comes in different forms. How scary it is to think that in another few decades most survivors will either not be here or will be too old to provide credible testimony.
How important it is for survivors like yourself to talk now, never to shut up or to be silenced by anti-Semitic scum telling you “The Holocaust is over. Drop it.”
Daniel and Rubin
let me add the schizophrenia of Germany which runs an acclaimed memory culture around the holocaust which seems to be good for tourism and which seems to leave a lot of its citizens free to malign Israel. Often I think the two are connected, with a memorial one has bought one’s indulgence to criticize Israel the more.
As best I know the sale of indulgences was especially successful in Germany at least once before. This was the slogan:
“As soon as a coin in the coffer rings, a soul from purgatory springs”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Letter_of_indulgence
Daniel,
Thank you for elucidating so well what it is that bugs our detractors about the greatest calamity to befall the hapless Jewish nation throughout its blood-soaked history. Of course, I’m aware of the Palestinians’ motives, but I took the European anti-Semites’ attitudes as simply, malicious pleasure from our misfortune – the Germans have a single word for it – schadenfreude!
Being absent from this blog for a while, I didn’t know this guy, his motives, and unsure which way to take his utterances.
Rubin,
Did I ever mail you this picture?
Daniel,
Many thanks for this. I look a bit bleary-eyed, must have been all that Scotch!
Shabbat Shalom.
Melanie Phillips has just posted, as usually, an excellent article in which she mentions Richard at the above circus, masquerading for a book launch. The article ends thus: “The ‘Jewish lobby’ trope confirms once again that irrationality and bigotry have gone mainstream in Britain.”
Rubin: As you’ve asked me to, let me spell it out, as you’re obviously blinded by vested emotional interest: The Nazis murdered in cold blood, between 1933 and 1945, around 12 million unarmed civilians….men, women and children. 6 million of those were Jews. The question is…..why do you disregard all the others, as if they have no importance? Why do you sacralise the Holocaust and ignore the suffering of other members of humanity. Do I need to list them? Yes I guess I do. And all you can come up with is Gypsies! We are talking about the Roma and Sinti, Communists, Christian dissidents, political dissidents, resistance fighters, slave labourers from all the occupied countries, homosexuals, common criminals, the physically and mentally handicapped, Jehovah’s witnesses, POWs and so on. All these people experienced their own Shoah or catastrophe, You were not the only victims.
James
please specify the other 6 million
as a German I always get very very suspicious if somebody comes up with another 6 million, why not 5, why not 7, why not 3 or why not 8.
the last time I remember a conveniently (and speedily debunked as phantasy) “also 6 million” turned up was when Günter Grass, the last ink poet, came up with bio-German victims, I think he was talking about German prisoners of war.
(Günter Grass is currently feted on behalf of some birthday and has turned out new stuff – either he found another pot of ink somewhere or he’s switched to digital or maybe this time he is writing with his own blood)
Let me explain that to you in simple terms: Jews in Europe were less than 1% of the population. Since you admit that they were half of the casualties of the war, you have to explain why this discrepancy between the relative population and the percentage of victims. Of course, this is because Jews were targets for the Nazi Germany regime. So this is not about absolute numbers but relative ones.
The other six millions were part of a greater group and represent a few percent of these groups. Six million was 50% of the world Jewry. Do you get that? To be compared to Europeans, Nazi Germany would have to murder half of the Europeans in five years (he didn’t even succeed at killing 2% of them).
Or maybe you think that Hitler killed more than 50% homosexuals? ‘Gypsies’? Communists? Christians? And then, what are your sources?
jimmie griffin, Why are you so obtuse? Nature or Nurture?
jimmie griffin, Are you a BNP (British Nazi Party) drone?
what exactly is a zionist?
a person who supports the idea that israel should be a safe homeland for jewish people?
according to most ant zionists, it’s a group of alien reptiles, blood drinking vampires, gold hoarders and bankers, media moguls who secretly run the world.
the protocols of the elders are now the reptilian agenda.
it’s just history spinning around, the best thing any person who values the principles of individual freedom can do it seems it move to israel, where at least they don’t seem to live in a parallel universe of hypocrisy and distorted reality.
the citizens there know, everyone hates them, that the next jewish holocaust could be tomorrow, that they can’t win no matter what they do so they just get on with doing the best they can under difficult circumstances while they are judged from afar by the champagne socialists and bbc lefties and all the other drones who actually just re enforce the idea that zionism is the only option these people have because attacks on jewish people in europe and around the world are increasing all the time because of a stupid inability for these morons to stop being bullies and blaming zionists for everything.
i just saw this and it seems quite relevant to share http://www.thecommentator.com/article/1921/israel_is_under_attack_do_you_care_
Replacing “Zionists” by “Jews” in the propaganda of Llewelyn is incredibly informative of the structure of the language used. It is antisemitic,’Protocols-like’ language,
Zionist-bashing is just a resurgence of the classical antisemitism. Left-wing or right-wing doesn’t matter, it is the same hate, using a different excuse.
I am really sorry to say, as everyone here seems to feel so persecuted and hated, that I cannot fault what Llewellyn, Rowland, Milne and Alibhai-Browne said. After twenty years of research into human behaviour during facism in Germany and Europe and the brainwashing, propaganda and mindset of that period, which inevitably brought me to the study of Zionism and Palestine and the narrative that numerous supporters of Israel’s increasingly right-wing governments are keen to spread on as many webistes as they can, I can state with assurance that there is a long line, from circa 1910 to the present day, of enormous pressure exerted on the British government, the media, public events, exhibitions, seminars, schools and universities, you name it (also in Germany, France, Australia, and more so in the USA)…to either NOT refer to or portray the desperate lives of Palestinians, to water down any portrayal by depicting the struggle between Israel’s armed occupation and Palestinian resistance as a battle of equals, and allow absolutely NO criticism of Israel or even debate about Israeli government’s versions of anything versus the hundreds of observers on the ground, human rights groups, the Goldstone Report (there’s a discussion! – as we know, most of that report remains intact and undisputed), polticians, and indeed, Israelis themselves!
What is wrong with you people commenting here? There are a thousand websites like this one, spewing self-obsessed visions of being hated and quite frankly, some of the nastiest, most hateful stuff I have ever come across (only equalled by stupid antisemitism), written by Jews about non-Jews or critics of the Israeli Government and their policies. Don’t you look around and see how many people hate others, no matter who they are? Has the trauma, or inherited trauma of the Shoah become so warped? One might even imagine that you love to be hated or believe you are hated. It serves a purpose I guess, and certainly anyone who goes on as much as you lot do about being hated are sure to be ostracized eventually, because who believes it? And who believes biblical versions of a ‘promised land’ and a ‘chosen people’? Who can speak of an ’empty land’ after viewing the vast trove of photographs taken of the richness of Palestine in the early 1900’s? Who can not be outraged by the now 600.000 settlers living on 40% of the illegally occupied West Bank and terrorize the local inhabitants. There are simply too many parallels to the way human beings behaved during facism, with their ideas of racial superiority, purity and entitlement, their cruelty and their racism, indoctrinating children in schools and camps, most of it fueled by human ignorance, fear and dislike of the ‘other’, greed and political machinations.
Thank goodness my Jewish friends don’t think like you and the Israelis I admire greatly for their courage in speaking the truth about historical events are voices of the great conscience of traditional Judaism, or I too would be at a loss. In the end, we see, as always, people everywhere are just the same, they are good, bad and ugly, and can be all too easily driven to barbaric thought and behaviour.
Try looking out at the world and seeing how many friends you have, how many people, how many Palestinians, have nothing against Jews per se, they simply want justice and rights for the Palestinians, and Israel and its rabid supporters clearly want Jerusalem and all of Palestine and it serves their purposes to indoctrinate and portray Jews as the eternal victims.
But, sadly, I’m sure you will be able to dig up some ‘hatred’ in my comment. You are so good at twisting things around.
Hi CAB,
I don’t know who you are, but you seem to be quite an angry type of person and though you boast “twenty years of research into human behaviour during facism (sic) in Germany and Europe and the brainwashing, propaganda and mindset of that period” appear to have little more to show for it than a collection of worn-out (and badly spelled) cliches.
I rarely read Time Magazine, but a recent interview with Abu Mazen talks of 300 Palestinians killed in Judea and Samaria and Gaza in the past three years – this compares to 30,000 in half a million dead Syrians in half that time. One might imagine that under the circumstances people like yourself with such a genuine concern for human life would (also) focus some of their attention aiding civilians being killed 200 as fast, but truthfully I’d be shocked if that were the case. I’ve met thousands of anti-Semites crying crocodile tears for the poor Palestinians, but recall none who shed similar tears for any of the Iraqis being killed by exploding vehicles, Afghan women being executed for adultery, Egyptian Copts being murdered for being Christians or Iranians killed for being gay.
The criticism is always reserved for one country and one people. The country is the only Western democracy in the Middle East of which I’m indescribably proud to be a citizen. My fellow citizens include 1.6 million Arabs, who enjoy freedom and a standard of living that make them the envy of their Syrian, Egyptian and Jordanian cousins.
Together we will go, in about three months, and together we’ll choose our next government. And that CAB, my new friend, is what living in a democracy is all about.
PS. Cheer up. You may not like us, but just imagine a world without us.
CAB,
– 1993 truck bombing of the WTC
– 9/11/01 – hijacking of 4 passenger planes and flying them into buildings
– 1988 bombing of Pan Am 103
– necessity of checkpoints at every airport in the world
– 1988 saddaam husseins use of poison gas (a WMD) on the Kurds of Halabja Iraq – 5,000 dead
– 7/7/05 bombing of London transport
– 1980-1988 – 8 year Iraq/Iran war – 1 million dead
– 1968 assassination of US Senator Robert F. Kennedy by a “palestinian”
– murder of London police woman Yvonne Fletcher by a gunman in the Libyan embassy in London
– near nuclear war between Pakistan and India
– Mumbai India massacre
– Bali bombing
– Madrid train bombing
– honor killing of girls
– shooting in the head of a 15-year-old Pakistani girl shot in the head by the Taliban
– bombings in Syria, Afghanistan despite the ceasefire for Id al-Adha
– 2007 Glasgow airport SUV attack
– rape gangs in Sweden
– open threats by Muslims in the UK for 9/11 scale attacks
– attacks on Coptic Christians in Egypt
CAD, I can go on and on and on.
Try Google Images “arab nazi salute”
One of the most important lessons of the Holocaust is that Jews need to have the tools to defend themselves and crush their enemies.
CAD, Why do self proclaimed “peace activists” and “progressives” eagerly embrace racist, fascist islamists?
Sorry for the extra words.
Cab
You were doing so well up to the ‘ Chosen People ‘ canard . Why did you have to go and spoil it?
It marks you out for what you are .
That’s just it Mr. Marks, why should I imagine a world without “us”? I don’t know anyone who thinks like that. I think of people as individuals and I appreciate their cultures and diversity and I dislike any form of nationalism or religion that encourages hatred or discrimination or a sense of superiority and inferiority. I loathe exclusion of the ‘other’ as much as I loathe generalizations and demonization of a perceived ‘enemy’. And what I loathe most of all is corrupting the minds of children with racist ideology, whether they be Christians, Muslims or Jews.
As for the tired old why don’t you think of the Syrians (we’ve heard Netanyahu go on about that…) and the Afghanis and the Iraqis and Kurds – don’t think for a minute that I, the people I know (a large international mix) and the activists whose work I inform myself about (a large international mix), do not care for and read and debate as much about them as we do for the Palestinians (and quite frankly, the Israelis who are scared and horrified about the trend in their country). You seem to be categorizing my words in the usual bracket: antisemite…..oh dear…well, I’ve never met an antisemite in my long life, and by that I mean someone who can be distinguished by an irrational hatred of Jews or by set ideas of what a Jew is. They exist to be sure, like people who hate Afro-Americans and Chinese and Turks and whoever they happen to irrationally hate, but to be fair, look at how generations of Israelis are being instilled with racism: Nurit Peled-Elhanan’s “Palestine in Israeli School Books: Ideology and Propaganda in Education”.
http://electronicintifada.net/blogs/asa-winstanley/watch-israeli-professor-describes-racist-discourse-official-school-books
And I think there should be another word for the kind of ‘democracy’ that Jews only enjoy in Israel
And, as for the indescribably boring comment above by tgiai – get to know some peace activists and progressives and you’ll find that they are extremely averse to anyone embracing racist or fascist ideas of any sort. If you wish to get your data and build your world around fundamentalists and extremists, that is your problem, I prefer another path, so I won’t list all the thousands upon thousands of incidents involving harrassment, humiliation, imprisonment and detention without trial, torture, killings, theft and destruction of property, bureaucratic tricks, bullying of children, the polluting of wells and the sewage running into orchards and fields, the diversion of fresh water, the blockade, the perfidious roadblocks that hold up ambulances, prevent children from going to school, or people to work, or to visit relatives, or the transport of fruit and vegetables to market, of the interrogations of tourists at airports…..because I know there are good hearts out there who won’t let this continue.
Sorry, Harvey, it doesn’t mark me, it marks those who say and believe it and behave accordingly, and I often come across them.
But I did say that you’d all be out there looking for an antisemite. It’s so irresistable. I guess if you’ve been brought up that way, it becomes sort of like a game. How many times can I spot the antisemite in one paragraph?
Guess it’s time to move on.
Boy oh boy, has this guy got a hang up! I can just picture him, frothing at the mouth, without even stopping to catch his breath. You can tell by the way he spews out the hatred with hardly any punctuation.
Have you got it all out now, do you feel any better? Your diatribe is full of inaccuracies and pure piddle. I am always suspicious of people who boast of Jewish ‘friends’ in this context; this is a classic one! I don’t know about the others, but this crapule, as the Irish like to say, has turned me off and I shall give him a wide berth.
Yup CAB, we certainly live in different worlds. You write, “I’ve never met an antisemite in my long life,” I’ve met many – too many.
The first one I remember was a seven or eight year old boy of my age who I met outside a swimming pool in Potters Bar swimming pool. Though neither angry or threatening, he told me that he hated Jews. Genuinely interested I asked him why and he thought for quite some time before muttering something about my mother probably not offering him a drink were he thirsty. I assured him she would.
There were children older than me, total strangers, who knocked off my scull-cap and called me Yiddo. I was also called Kike, Jew-Boy, spat upon and thrown Halfpenny coins at. The less imaginative just shouted, “Fucking Jew!” I was almost mugged in Wembley and when overpowered my attacker justified his action with the explanation, “But he’s a Jew!”
Later in my life I met a not unattractive Irish lady who thought that “Hitler didn’t kill enough.” but was confused by my refusal to continue the conversation. In the first Intefada Arabs threw rocks at me and shouted, “Slaughter the Jews!” and Khalid Amayreh called us Kikes on this blog:
Yes CAB, we appear to live in very different worlds. I do not for a moment believe that all non-Jews are anti-Semites, there are many wonderful gentiles and some of them are our friends and allies. Nor do I believe that every anti-Semite is aware of all his own prejudices.
CAB, 40 Syrians were killed today. That’s more than the number of Palestinians killed in Judea, Samaria and Gaza in an average year. What have you done about that today? Furthermore, I believe that there are 40 Syrian families today that see that human tragedy as neither “tired” or “old” as you cynically put it.
CAB, I once challenged Khalid Amayreh, who claims that we are all Nazis, to point to a Middle-Eastern State where Arabs enjoy more freedom and more democratic rights than they do in Israel, where women enjoy more equality and gays are allowed to parade in the streets. He was unable. Maybe you can help him out. And if you come to the conclusion that Israel is not the least free or democratic state in the area, why do you single her out?
Did you ever go swimming in Potters Bar as a youth?
Sorry, I missed the well poisoning bit. Where exactly are these wells that we poison? Every Palestinian I know has had running water pretty much since 1967. I haven’t seen a well in ages.
We go out at night and poison the non-Jewish wells…hmm…Isn’t that what caused the Black Plague?
Wells!?
http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=well&oe=UTF-8&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=de&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=C_aMUPOdMMvOswar9YGQAQ&biw=1278&bih=639&sei=E_aMUMjEPMfQsgbWq4CwCg
Cab
I don’t apply the antisemitic epithet without good cause .
When someone spits out the ‘Chosen people ‘
Canard so as to mean Jewish people as an elite , a seperate class etc , I tend to switch off pretty damn quick .
The biblical derivation was to attribute a burden to the Jewish people . To be a light to the nations and to put forward the word of The Lord .
Only antisemites use ‘Chosen people ‘ in the manner applied by yourself .
The next give away is your failure to apply so much as a hint of balance to your 20 years of carefully researched material . Cause and effect is airbrushed out in order to facilitate your one sided diatribe of accusations and finger pointing .
I’ve given you far too much time .
Be a good person and head back to Mondoweiss , MPAC ,EI or whichever primordial swamp from whence you came .
James Griffin, come back all is forgiven…!
Having put the CAD above behind me, actually, the name suits him well and I can now concentrate on our differences.
First of all, I do not ignore the suffering of others, as you claim. We are not talking of ‘suffering’ as such, but of people done to death on a massive scale for no reason at all, except that they were considered Jews, going back as far as their grandparents. You came up with an allegoric figure of six-million gentile deaths. As Silke pointed out, why exactly six-million? This right away makes one suspicious, that’s why I queried the figure, and I asked you to elaborate. The more you went on, the more obvious it became that you have an agenda other than just concern for humanity. Those who keep rubbing this point in, invariably peddle in Holocaust trivialization, at the very least.
We all know many millions died during the war for various reasons, Russia alone lost over 30 million dead. The six-million Jews didn’t die as a result of war, apart from Jewish combatants of course in the various Allied armies. Jews were deliberately targeted by the Nazis because of their ethnic origin and it has been recognized internationally as the worst crime in history. For the purpose of this exercise I said I exclude combatants. But you came up with a long list, including Roma and Sinti, as if they weren’t Gypsies that I had included. POW’s, resistance fighters, forced labourers, the mentally handicapped, common criminals, etc. You lump them all together without distinction without having any clue. Resistance fighters were not killed for being French, Polish, Greek or for their religion. The euthanasia programme was stopped by Hitler when it caused an outcry in Germany – there was no outcry in the case of Jews…. As for German common criminals, I can tell you a lot about them. The worst psychopaths were sent to concentration camps to act as capos; those in charge of blocks of inmates. One such German capo murdered my father in front of witnesses, at Mauthausen-Gusen, just as the Americans got near the camp. My father was a proud man whose spirit could not be broken and this rankled him; he didn’t want my father to see freedom, he was by then like a skeleton, too weak to resist.
Other German common criminals were inducted into the cutthroat Dirlewanger Brigade who committed terrible crimes in Russia and later on did the same in Warsaw in August/September 1944, where I came across them during the Polish uprising. Dirlewanger was hanged by the Poles after the war, but the murderer of my father, like thousands of others, went unpunished.
First thing in the morning I’m off to Laxton, near Newark, Notts. to the Holocaust Educational Centre there. This was established by a kindly Christian family 17 years ago. Survivors give talks there to thousands of students every year, to teach young people what intolerance and scapegoating can lead to. A lesson that society at large can benefit from, but some here would rather we drop the subject and forget it ever happened. Never Again!
This is the Zionist plan:
oh Gamil that’s a lovely find
just imagine how your life would turn to the better …
you’d be rid of all that time consuming grudging and do something profitable during those hours instead
gamil = what a great video, thanks for posting.
i wonder what our detractors have left to say after watching this.
i can probably guess actually, accountability, logic and reason plays no part in their intelligence.
Daniel
the longer I read the CABs of this world the more I am convinced that they blind themselves to reality because that is the best cover they can find for their racism.
Their racism is the kind that veils its dire need to patronize somebody in order to be able to feel superior him/herself as the poor little baby who can’t help him/herself for being nasty, who is unable to behave in a way Miss Manners might approve of
http://www.washingtonpost.com/linksets/2010/07/06/AB97r7D_linkset.html
In my view they are very close in parts almost undistinguishable from the there is no decent muslim on earth crowd.
A CAB is a taxi, isn’t it? I wonder who is his directing passenger …
I think I’ve understood something
it seems the human mind does not like to be confused and thus it shies away from looking at the slaughter in Syria. There are just too many facts that make it hard to declare one (of the apparently many) parties an angel and strangely enough without an angel they don’t feel comfortable when opposing the monster.
Realising that side-taking (except against all parties stopping the slaughter) might be based on very unreliable data they do what most rational human beings would decide to do “they sit on the fence” (and wait for an Israeli to pop up somewhere which would be a great help).
But seriously while when considering Syria “they” are perfectly aware of their unknown unknowns and thus opt for humility when it comes to Israel the same “they” firmly shut their eyes to anything that might confuse their clear idea of who is the villain. No Pallywood scandal, no random violence against innocents, no facts trump “their” conviction that where there is an Israeli aka Jew is involved then the verdict of who is the villain is clear.
PS: while I have learned to accept that mobbing is what humans like to do and that when they turn into mobbing mode “we” prefer good and tried models where as little inventiveness and creativity as imaginable is needed what still continues to baffle me is
What is the romantic allure of Palestinians?
Water Pipes, Arafat Rag, maybe that they are better at impersonating Lawrence of Arabia?
What is their unique selling point that makes people who when it comes to suggestions for Syria are apparently perfectly capable of knowing their limits swallow the Palestinian narrative hook line and sinker?
I think it may be our inerrant racism that leads us to believe that if a Syrian despot butchers his citizens, it is an expression of Arab culture and as “Westerners”, who are we to criticize or interfere?
The leaders of the Arab world are mainly non-elected dictators who represent nobody but themselves and appoint their sons to follow them. However, nobody calls that “occupation”, how can a Arab occupy an Arab country, it doesn’t make sense. By virtue of the very fact that they are Arabs or Muslims their leadership acquires a legitimacy. That is racism.
Likewise, intelligent Europeans can see the dangers of the excesses of Islam all around the world; “promiscuous” women, gays, infidels or just school girls who speak out are murdered and they know it’s wrong and must be stopped, but when it comes to Palestine, that’s a different matter. Suddenly the same “promiscuous” women, gays and infidels are demonstrating for the Hamas and its rights to smuggle weapons into Gaza. Though some of the guns will be turned against Israel, the majority will be used to terrorize their own people, but that’s okay. Arabs are allowed to kill their sisters who disgrace the family honor because that’s part of their culture. And who are we as “Westerners” to interfere?
I had a group of your countrymen here last week, Silke, and one asked how I could live in a city surrounded by Arabs – more racism. I told him that five years ago another German journalist asked me that question and that I told him that Europeans might be asking themselves the same thing pretty soon. When I said that a few years ago the whole room laughed hysterically and someone told me I knew nothing of European reality. “I don’t see anyone laughing today.” I concluded. There was just an uncomfortable silence and a few heads nodded.
Frankly, it’s you guys I’m worried for. We are strong and self-confident and our European Jewish brothers are already buying property in Israel, planning for the future. But to where are the gentiles of Europe who don’t want to accept Allah and his laws going to run? It may not happen today or tomorrow, but I suspect it might come sooner than many think.
To meet an antisemite is very easy. The one who did not meet any speaks like one. We just had an example here. That one will quote the antisemitic “Electronic Intifada” as a valuable source!
I can give you the trick. Even if you are of African or Asian descent, just wear a kippa, take the subway or walk in a Pakistani district. You will meet antisemites by the dozens. All they need is a way to recognise you as a Jew, even if you are not.
Eventually, take a weapon: you may have to save your life.
ADL estimates the number of antisemites to about 20% in England. The probabliity of never meeting an antisemite after having met n persons is (4/5)^n. After 10 persons, it’s about 1/10, after 20 about 1/100, after 30 about 1/1000, after 30 persons about 1/10000.
So either CAB is a liar, or he is totally deluded and cannot see evidence, or he met very few people in his life.
In any case, his opinion isn’t of any real value.
In the above, it should read “after 40 persons about 1/10000”, as the probabllity to meet an antisemite in one’s life.
Harvey said: ”Only antisemites use ‘Chosen people ‘ in the manner applied by yourself ”
This is just not true. Another denial. I have met many Jews in Israel who have stated quite clearly to me that they are the Chosen people, in the sense that they have a privileged relationship with God and are therefore special, holy, and spiritually superior to the gentiles.
So pull the other one Harvey, it’s got bells on.
Well, those in Israel who would use “chosen people” in the meaning of “superior” are probably non-religious. The religious people use is as indeed a ‘privileged relationship’ but that is more DEMANDING than to other people, ie with more religious duties, not special privileges or superiority.
You can see the ‘superiority’ notion in such non-religious idiots as Richard Silverstein of notorious Tikkun Olam blog (drivel). Definitely anti-Israel with antisemitic bias.
“James Griffin”, are you using the pseudo “Dana Hirsch” on Facebook, for Jew-washing of your discourse?
The Muslims have the concept and practice of ‘taquiya’, meaning deceit. This involves hoodwinking the infidels, pulling the wool over their eyes, fooling them into believing that Islam is not a racist totalitarian ideology.
The same practice exists in Judaism but is, compared to Islam, covert and sinister. it is not explicitly admitted to as an established practice. But the deceit is widespread. It is either conscious deception (in the case of the rabbis, who know very well what their religion thinks of gentiles), or unconscious, in the case of many Jews who have fallen for self-deception ( they actually see gentiles as inferior but can’t own up to it, and also promulgate the idea that they were chosen by God to uphold the moral code and they insist on selling that line to the rest of the world while feeling superior). If Orthodox Judaism had any integrity, it would emulate Islam’s transparency and admit openly that it is an established practice to deceive the gentiles that their belief sytem is not a racist, chauvinist, separatist and exclusivist ideology.
James
as a German I feel that regarding Jews as collectively superior for quite a number of generations would behove me well.
But seriously I admire Israelis and if it were only for the boost they gave to my self-esteem long long ago when they killed the women are cute buw a wee-bit inferior meme by one single stroke of genius i.e. they made them serve in the military thereby telling me and the world that we are of equal abilities.
jimmie griffin, Please end your deceit and proclaim your devastation that your side lost WW2. That your side, your parents heroes SURRENDERED UNCONDITIONALLY to the US, UK and SU.
WW2 Victory in Europe Day: Beaten Nazis Sign Historic Surrender (1945)
“They all assured army authorities that they were anti-Nazi and had never harmed a soul. A tale we will hear many times…” (2 minutes 16 seconds)
What a remarkable prophesy! I bet the 60-year-old said, “I’ve never met an antisemite in my long life…”
that volume 2 of women of the Nazis I am currently reading dealt with Lina Heydrich also and consequently her husband. He wasn’t a Nazi until he became one probably just to please his wife and in order to make a good career. (maybe he is the kind of non-anti-semite James is thinking of).
His father was a somebody in the musical world (director of a conservatory) with consequently lots of Jewish friends who came to visit his house and with whom young Heydrich grew up without apparently ever showing any dislike until his wife “enlightened” him and he got the job to fit.
PS: from volume III of the series I got the title of a book by Thea Harbou who was a very successful script writer for Fritz Lang and after his emigration for other. The book is women and war and from 1913 and the first story in it suggests to me that Goebbels copied his rhetoric from her.
Keep up the good work, Infidel.
Your old friend A!
Do you have the word “confabulation” in your vocabulary? That’s what your “description” of Judaism is.
acaranda AKBARRRRR!
James Griffin, congratulations, you are an antisemite and CAB can now boast to have met one in his life!
LOL!
LOL too
Well isn’t that shrewd? The Jews use deceit but it is not explicitly written, isn’t that an even worse deceit? If they admit it, good, matter settled, they are deceitful. If they don’t, it’s because they lie or are not conscious of it Dr. Freud! Damn if they do admit it and double-damn if they don’t.
Such a ‘reasoning’ Stalin would envy you, James Griffin!
Jose: what kind of question is that? And what on earth is ‘Jew-washing’? Enlighten me.
It is a question that you can answer by yes or no, a closed one.
Jew-washing is the use of Jews, or pseudo-Jews to justifiy antisemitic discourse without risking being accused of antisemitism. But I guess you know that very well and playing the taqqiya deceit.
And if you deny playing the taqqiya deceit, I will then tell you that you do it unconsciously! LOL!
My “chosen people” answer being ‘moderated’ for the moment, you cannot see it yet.
Daniel
in completing your view – audios I listened to today reminded me of two certainties I’ve been told over the last decade.
One was Americans telling the world after 7/7 as an absolute certainty that home-grown terrorism would never become a problem in the US because what happened in London was all due to our (Europeans) benighted handling of our muslim immigrants.
The other was how proud the Brits had been of themselves that they did everything right in Basra and problems were only the fault of the gung-ho Americans with their steel helmets instead of berets.
In other words we Westerners currently don’t kill eachother but we always assume that we possess the philosopher’s stone and the others are doing everything wrong.
The idea that we have once again supported/ignited/inspired by religion madness on the rampage (in that sense both Nazism and Communism are religions/belief systems too) and that we should first of all stop blaming each other and ask Israel for advice and training (like Germany did after the Munich massacre when it started the GSG9) seems not to happen. Hopefully it happens secretly because which other country manages day in day out the I assume incredibly difficult balance of keeping the usurpers in check while preserving a free and open and inclusive society?
I’ve kept an old advertisement which says roughly translated:
“the best protection is, if one is aware of one’s vulnerability”
and we fall woefully short on admitting the vulnerability let alone defining it. There is a new book by a man I like to listen to, a mayor of Berling called Heinz Buschkowsky and he seems completely free from that nonsense that it is in the genes which the last one by the name of The Sarrazin tried to tell us (by him Jews have somewhere somehow some better ones)
and we haven’t even begun to define our problems properly – OTOH at least I want to continue to live as well together as we did up to a certain point when all of a sudden these head scarve wearers and their skull cap sporting partners with their scowling faces seemed to dominate inner cities. And at the same time we must find ways of keeping the madness from spreading.
A couple of months a woman with a headscarve smiled at me for smiling at her toddler in the pram. I felt like ululating, I can’t remember it ever having happened before.
On the other hand, we know how to stop the Nazi madness from spreading. It is not the Chamberlain way.
Not the appeasing Chamberlain way, nor the FAKE “anti-war” way, nor the oswald mosely/jimme griffin way.
Jose
I am in the midst of a short telling of Unity Mitford’s “reign” in Germany – at the same time there was an impressive number of the English elite coming to Germany proclaiming that Germany had found a model that would be worth following.
As best I know Churchill considered Chamberlain’s appeasement wise up to a point because the Brits had heavily de-armed after the war to end all wars and it took them some time to re-arm.
Judging from Riddle in the Sands they believed the same of us before WW1.
The world is a very confusing place. and why people are so willing to overlook canaries as huge as dragons never ceases to baffle me.
There are cases when appeasement will work. When the two foes are really think peace is in their best interest, appeasement will allow to find a negotiated settlement. And that is certainly the best solution in human lives, costs and stability. War is hell, small or big.
But with a paranoid regime led by a Nazi ideology or an apocalyptic religion, it gives exactly the contrary results. Appeasement become “weakness” and vindicates the ‘fuhrer’/’ayatollah’, while making him think that he could have demanded more and that leads to the next step to inevitable war.
that is the conventional story of pre WW2 appeasement but it seems that historical research now allows also the view that because of scaling down of armament post WW1 the Brits (and the US) just weren’t ready. Those who believed that smiling would get them reliable deals with Hitler were of course deluded but it seems there were some who did it as “taquiya” buying them time to get in shape for the nasty part.
Right now whom do you want to attack and how?
On the one hand does Saudi Arabia a lot of very bad indoctrination on the other hand she is the best ally against Iran to be had (last year or so I read that they’d allow Israeli air planes to use their air space)
Because it is so complicated I don’t understand why those in power do not position themselves more unmistakenly as come rain or come shine we stand by Israel. As I keep saying even a Westerner who is a confirmed anti-semite must be more than legally permissible stupid to not align himself with Israel out of pure self-interest.
As for Hitler – why so many Germans, especially members of the elite who due to their education were equipped to see through this bizarre nobody fell for the man, I don’t know. And for me it starts on a very simple basis. If those society ladies hadn’t taught him how to hold his fork and knife and how to dress and a lot of these other basics – he’d have had a much harder time. Or maybe it just was that uncouth was the fashion of the day. (believe me somebody from his background doesn’t have the manners to pass)
It is easy to blame the foreigners but first of all it were my forebears who fell for him and thus made him seem important. There was a lot of reason for rage amongst the lower classes and the big wigs apparently didn’t take it serious or preached meaningless stuff possible similar to today’s trickle down gospel preachers.
Jose
I guess that the worst effect these visiting foreigners had was that they signalled to simple people, well if these grand and mighty find us admirable then maybe I am overly squeamisch when objecting to how they treat my neighbor.
As to the euthanasia programs as best I know Hitler stopped them when the population objected but got them going again once the storm subsided only much more on the sly.
In fact, the future allies of WW II were informed WAY IN ADVANCE of Hitler’s violation of the Versailles Armistice agreements and could have re-armed very well before any appeasement policy. They did not. They deliberately ignored the risk and went to all-out appeasement ignoring that it has exactly the reverse effect on paranoid Nazi regimes. That is not a tribute to gorvernment psychologists who could not correctly analyse what psychos were taking power in Germany.
All this is extremely well-known and documented, and that was already the case before the war was even finished.
and they were democracies and would have had no problem to convince their WW1 war weary populations that another effort was worth their while?
and yes Churchill moans in the gathering storm the German rearmament on the sly taking place in Russia extensively. Did they keep it up for too long? In hindsight without a doubt. Did they have a clear idea how to stop it apparently not, if they had had they would at least have not attended the 1936 Olympics.
And in Germany the Nazis were forbidden to do all kinds of things again and again, all to no avail, they somehow seem to know how to out-glitz and out-glamour all of it.
I’m no bible scholar (you have to turn to Daniel for that) but I can detect an anti-Semite from way off! The phrase ‘Chosen People’ can be deliberately misconstrued by ill-wishers, although the ‘chosen people’ concept was never racist, because anyone can convert to Judaism if the intention is genuine, that’s why orthodox Rabbis don’t make it too easy. We are commanded to welcome such people into the fold.
God chose the Hebrews, simply because they were the only people to choose monotheism. They were chosen for the privilege of serving God and not in the sense of being superior to others, as some try to make out. Every religious grouping believe theirs is superior to the others, but this charge is only leveled at the Jews.
Hi Rubin
You said:
“God chose the Hebrews, simply because they were the only people to choose monotheism. They were chosen for the privilege of serving God and not in the sense of being superior to others, as some try to make out.”
Not quite. JEWS didn’t choose monotheism. Rather, the only true and living GOD chose ONE MAN, Abraham, and called him out of a pagan society (Ur, where he lived, was a centre of moon worship) to be the ancestor of a nation.
Through Abraham’s descendant, the Messiah, people of all nations would be blessed. That was the promise of God and that was and is the purpose and privilege of the Jewish people. They are his witnesses – witness to the eternal God who means what he says and keeps his word. That too is why you are so hated. Your very existence is evidence of the existence and purposes of God. That is true even for those of you who reject the God of Abraham and call yourselves atheists.
Your explanation of antisemitism is exactly that of antisemite. The only problem is that it doesn’t resist even a superficial scrutiny. Mostly, what you explain is the justifications of antisemites.
Most of the antisemitism was Christian and Islamic until two centuries ago. But in the last centuries, as secular political movements replaced the God-given monarchies, antisemitism appeared as the instrument of control of masses it has always been. Godless religions such as Anarchism, Communism, Ecologism used antisemitism as the other monotheistic religions did. Today, there is more antisemitism coming from Islamism (which is not just a religion) but equally from the godless religions.
So we see the gay movements being aggressively anti-Israel, the only country that have a decent protection of gays in the Middle East. We see lefties demonstrating along with the worse Nazis the world has seen since the end of WW II. We see Ecologists, Communists, Anarchists aggressively attacking Israel for doing what every other democratic country does: defend its citizens against foreign attacks.
and I guess even PETA keeps mum about this in order to be able to keep serving the greater “good”.
But accidents are common as people frequently buy animals to slaughter themselves instead of paying professional butchers. The festive atmosphere at the site of the slaughtering also tends to make the animals fidgety.
http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2012/10/revenge-of-the-cow/264217/
Tim LLEWELLYN claims the Jews are an alien people. They are not . When the way was open for them to settle in the land we now call Israel they were fulfilling the promises of the Bible, inspired by our Father Himself. His promises are irrevocable (Romans Chapter 12 verse 29). Further more it wa the Balfour Declaration of ninety-five years agothat allowed this. Confirmed by the San Remo Agreemtn of 1920.
”Every religious grouping believe theirs is superior to the others, but this charge is only leveled at the Jews.”
Both Judaism and Islam are racist, tribalist, separatist, supremacist and elitist self-worshipping belief systems.
and what are Christians – separate by subsection – Hindus, Buddhists, Scientologists, Wiccans and whoever else has one?
BTW to add to your knowledge of taquiya: My family strongly believes that Catholics are never to be trusted because they get a clean slate with every confessions and a few hail maries and that taken care of will sin just like before sure in the knowledge that the next confession will render them innocents again.
Obviously, you have been exposed to antisemitism very early in your life.
Probably, if I tell an evident truth, such as “20% of Nobel Prizes are Jews, way above their percentage in the general population”, you will tell me that is ‘racist’ (which race?), tribalist (which tribe?), separatist (in which way?), supremacist (regarding who?), elitist (how?), self-worshipping (is truth self-worshipping?) belief system.
Islam, should not be confused with Islamism. Islam, as all religions is gibberish, but Islamism is just a form of Nazism with a religious base.
Silke: Sounds like Yom Kippur to me.
help please!
just in case James latest is as witty as he undoubtedly believes it is, could somebody take mercy on me and explain the joke? thanks!
If it isn’t funny, nobody needs to bother 😉
I think maybe James means that on Yom Kippur religious Jews also think their sins are washed away for another year. superficially a similar idea to the RC confessional.
…No, it isn’t funny after all. Sorry for bothering
thanks for the explanation
no James and that stupid remark of his definitely aren’t funny and the way my grandfather etc understood the confessional was only funny if you weren’t catholic and/or if you are secular enough to take the protestants and catholics “slandering” eachother in Germany with a grain of salt.
For one a catholic can as best I know got to a confessional several times a day if he/she really wants to be on the safe side with respect to his/her afterlife.
Followers of any religion probably divert from its original teachings after a time, either for good or evil. Catholicism is a corruption of Christianity, and in some things (for example in the matter of praying to dead saints and making “graven images”) disobeys both the Hebrew and Christian scriptures.
I’m sure the Pope will be most grateful to be enlightened by you as to the role of sainthood in the Catholic church.
Silke, I have no idea what you mean by “I’m sure the Pope will be most grateful to be enlightened by you as to the role of sainthood in the Catholic church”!
You don’t seem to understand that I was comparing what the HEBREW SCRIPTURES say about such things with the actual practices of the Catholic Church and pointing out that they don’t fit.
You will find what God thinks of images and praying or sacrificing to the dead (necromancy) in the Law of Moses (Exodus 20:4; Deuteronomy 18:10-12). ANYONE, including the Pope who does these things or thinks such practices are OK is in direct conflict with GOD himself! I too have had Catholic friends and it is heartbreaking to see them bound in spirit to such practices and unable to see that they are wrong.
James is a missionary – only missionaries hearts break, if somebody does the praying wrong.
PS: as best I remember my stint at a nun’s school some 60 years ago one asks the saints to talk to God on one’s behalf.
PS, that also goes for your example of the RC confessional. I agree, except that it is far to sweeping to say that “Catholics are never to be trusted” There are individual Catholic Gentiles who live a more rightwous life and have a closer relationship with the God of Abraham than many Jews!
tell that to my grandfather etc.
I for one have lots of Catholic friends 😉
James Griffin,
It’s become fairly obvious you know little about the subject under discussion, be it the Holocaust, WWII, Israel, Judaism, Zionism and now religions. You are only showing yourself up for what you are; a Jew-hater, Israel basher and Holocaust denigrator, at best. Masquerading for a humanist which doesn’t extend to anyone of the Jewish faith. You probably rely on Google for a quick fix about things you can’t grasp, that’s why you get them jumble up. Go and read up on some authoritative histories first. I have no intention of keeping this up with you.
Rubin
he isn’t worth to be taken seriously – he is just another of those immature dirty poisonous little slanderers.
Hi JP,
You are obviously a Gentile and sound well-versed in the Bible, certainly better than me. We know Abraham appears in the book of Genesis. He smashed the idols in the house of his father-in-law, and began believing in the concept of One God, thus symbolically becoming the first Jew and the ‘father’ of the Jewish nation. Whereas, I was referring to Deuteronomy about the time the Children of Israel receive the Ten Commandment and God refers to them in Hebrew as Am Segula; a Holy People.
Hi Rubin,
The idol-smashing is a midrash based on the fact that the Bible said that Abrahams father worshipped idols and in that context to worship and to work or make use the same word. In fact, the Bible tells us nothing about Abraham’s youth and he was older than you when he first became active.
Regarding the “chosen people” thing, as many have said this is never a way that Jews refer to themselves. It’s usually taken out of context by Jew-haters to prove that we think that we’re better than others. This is not so case, though in James’ case I might make an exception.
JP and Silke,
That’s not quite correct. A Priest can absolve a person of their sins. But Jews can only pray and plead with God for forgiveness – but they can never be sure of the outcome. That is up to the Almighty, they can only promise not to sin again in the coming year.
Rubin
as best I know a protestant priest can’t absolve (Protestants – at least the ones I grew up with – have neither confession nor last rite) but a protestant can pray for forgiveness as often as he likes and there is a protestant holiday called pentance and pray-day but in order to know what it’s about I’d have to consult Wikipedia. It used to be a nice day off-work in November which has now been sacrificed in order to establish German Unification Day as a free day. (Germans seem not to be able to have holidays on word days 😉
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Store_Bededag
it is all very complicated and given that to this day Christians are probably still as far as ever from agreeing on the finer points of Jesus’ nature quite hopeless.
But given James’ patronizing compassion of his catholic friends I’d say that kind of attitude reads to me as a strong indicator of somebody believing himself to be better.
Having been away for a day or so I’ve completely lost the thread here. What exactly is the discussion about?
Daniel – you haven’t missed much!
I think the latest discussion started with the ‘chosen people’ that some like to berate the Jews for. Then James Griffin made some foolish remark equating Yom Kippur with the confessional box which Silke didn’t quite understand and she asked for clarification.
In the matter of the ‘chosen people’ which anti-Semites throughout the ages have used, among other things, as an excuse to demonize the Jewish people. I mentioned in an earlier post that it was written about the Children of Israel as Am S’gula, a Holy People. I have since given it some thought, knowing that the familiar word for holy in Hebrew is kodesh. I went back to the bible where I had earlier looked it up and noticed it was an old Masoretic edition published in America – that explains it! I next consulted a good contemporary Israeli Hebrew dictionary which translates the word s’gula, as specific, special.
As Daniel pointed out, Jews never refer to themselves as the ‘chosen people’. In fact they joke about it because it hasn’t done us any good: “Perhaps He would choose another people next time!”
Thank you for the explanation of the difference between kodesh and s’gula, that’s very interesting. I knew that kodesh means “holy” or separate but hadn’t heard of s’gula. Although both words could be used of Israel. Separate not meaning superior but separated for a particular purpose.
Daniel said: ”Regarding the “chosen people” thing, as many have said this is never a way that Jews refer to themselves.”
Rubin said: ”As Daniel pointed out, Jews never refer to themselves as the ‘chosen people’’
Absolute rubbish. We have two bare-faced liars and dissemblers let loose on here. As I said, there is no Judaic word for Taquiya. There should be. Because these guys are practising it. It’s an even worse form of deceit than the Islamic taquiya, as it is even acknowledged or admitted as a strategy to fool the gentiles.
the only person around here which makes me feel getting fooled is you, dear James.
should be ‘not even acknowledged’
‘It was anti-Semitism that encouraged attachment to the law and assured the survival of Jewish consciousness, Jewish ‘difference’, Jewish solidarity and the idea of the Jewish people. Antisemitism produces Jewish feeling and is responsible for Jewish survival, and Jewish separatism has helped it. It is not in spite of but because of anti-Semitism that a Jewish identity has survived. The history of the Jews is the history of anti-Semitism, the history of those who make them Jews. In other words, the history of anti-Semitism. Deep down, the Zionists and the religious nationalists are grateful for anti-Semitism.They depend on it. The non-existence of anti-Semitism leads to the rapid ending of the ‘eternal’ Jewish identity.The worst prospect for the Jews would be for anti-Semitism to cease. When anti-Semitism ends, assimilation will be total and with it the ‘making’ of the Jews.’
This was written by Georges Friedmann, A Jew, in his book ‘The End of the Jewish People’
well, by that logic the male habit of raping women or burning us as witches has assured that “we” (the wormen of this world) have maintained our womenhood.
James, do you really believe any nonsense you are told?
The point re the “Chosen People” is not whether or not Jews refer to themselves as such but:
1. In WHAT WAY, or with what motive, is this used? Anti-semites would use this term mockingly; Jews would use it either with pride (unwarrented) or defensiveness.
I once sat by a Jewish lad on a train. During conversation he said (defensively) that although he was not really “religious” he still believed that the Jews were the Chosen People. My reaction was instant, “Of course you are!”
2. Who does the choosing and with what purpose? As I have already said, it was GOD who did the choosing when he called Abraham (at age 75) to be the ancestor of a special nation.
The Hebrew scriptures make it very clear that the Jewish people are definitely not special because they are better than anyone else! Neither is being Jewish a ticket to favour with God or a passport to heaven.
At a time when Israel was in exile because of their rebellion against God, the prophet Ezekiel wrote (excuse the long quote but we need to get the context, and it is relevant to the present issue of the Land as well as the people of Israel):
Ezekiel 36, from: http://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/16134 (a Jewish website by the way)
17. “Son of man! The house of Israel, as long as they lived on their own land, they defiled it by their way and by their misdeeds, like the uncleanness of a woman in the period of her separation was their way before Me. יז.
18. Wherefore I poured My wrath upon them for the blood that they had shed in the land, because they had defiled it with their idols. יח.
19. And I scattered them among the nations, and they were dispersed through the countries. According to their way and their misdeeds did I judge them. יט.
20. And they entered the nations where they came, and they profaned My Holy Name, inasmuch as it was said of them, ‘These are the people of the Lord, and they have come out of His land.’ כ.
21. But I had pity on My Holy Name, which the house of Israel had profaned among the nations to which they had come. כא.
22. Therefore, say to the house of Israel; So says the Lord God: Not for your sake do I do this, O house of Israel, but for My Holy Name, which you have profaned among the nations to which they have come. כב.
23. And I will sanctify My great Name, which was profaned among the nations, which you have profaned in their midst; and the nations shall know that I am the Lord-is the declaration of the Lord God-when I will be sanctified through you before their eyes. כג.
24. For I will take you from among the nations and gather you from all the countries, and I will bring you to your land. כד.
25. And I will sprinkle clean water upon you, and you will be clean; from all your impurities and from all your abominations will I cleanse you. כה.
26. And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit will I put within you, and I will take away the heart of stone out of your flesh, and I will give you a heart of flesh. כו.
27. And I will put My spirit within you and bring it about that you will walk in My statutes and you will keep My ordinances and do [them]. כז.
28. Then will you dwell in the land that I gave your fathers, and you will be a people to Me, and I will be to you as a God. כח.
29. And I will save you from all your uncleannesses, and I will call to the corn and will multiply it, and I will not decree famine again over you. כט.
Note these verses (my emphasis). They are relevant to the original article and the reason Israel and the Jews are so hated (especially by Islamic extremists who covet the Land for their own (false) god:
23. And I will sanctify My great Name, which was profaned among the nations, which you have profaned in their midst; and THE NATIONS SHALL KNOW THAT I AM THE LORD -is the declaration of the Lord God-when I will be sanctified through you before their eyes. כג.
24. For I WILL TAKE YOU FROM AMONG THE NATIONS AND GATHER YOU FROM ALL THE COUNTRIES, AND I WILL BRING YOU TO YOUR LAND. כד”