And I only asked why Jews can’t live next to Palestinians on the West Bank….

GUPS representative, Martin Linton, Dibyesh Anand, Sarah Apps, Murad Qureshi

GUPS representative, Martin Linton, Dibyesh Anand, Sarah Apps, Murad Qureshi

And so to my final blog of 2014 and a public event I attended last month at the University of Westminster, London.

On 13th November 2014 a panel discussed Parliament Recognises Palestine: What Next?

The panel consisted of Sara Apps, Campaigns Officer for the Palestine Solidarity Campaign, Martin “tentacles” Linton, chair of Labour Friends of Palestine, Murad Qureshi, a Labour Party Member of the London Mayoral Assembly and, finally, a representative from the General Union of Palestinian Students (GUPS – UK).

The panel was chaired by Dr. Dibyesh Anand, Head of Department of Politics and International Relations at the University of Westminster.

As ever there were repeated calls from the panel for a boycott of Israeli “settlements”. When it came to the Q&A I raised my arm and asked one simple question:

“Isn’t it racist to call for the ethnic cleansing of Jews from the West Bank especially when considering that 1.7 million Muslim and Christian Arabs reside fairly happily in Israel ?”

Chaos ensued.

I was then referred to as “the enemy” by a man who walked out while giving me a rather unpleasant look. He also said, referring to me, “We are fighting these people”. Here’s the clip:

The head of Fatah in the UK then described how the Palestinians had welcomed the Jews from Nazi Germany and protected the Jewish community in Beirut during Lebanon’s civil war.

The most frightening aspect of his speech was not the lies but the applause. Here’s the clip:

Martin Linton then accused me of dangerously introducing “Jewish” into the discussion. But he then praised the anti-Israel group Jewish Voices for Peace (JVP).

Sarah Apps said she abhored anti-Semitism. However, her organisation’s logo dispenses with Israel altogether. So, if implicitly calling for the eradication of the Jewish state isn’t anti-Semitism then, one must ask, what is?

Anand Dibyesh said this event wasn’t at all anti-Semitic (I never claimed it was) before immediately, himself, going on to make a link between Nazism and Israel.

Finally, a student asked what she could do to help. Martin Linton responded that she should support Karen Buck, the Labour MP for Westminster North, who, he said, is very pro-Palestinian. It seems for some the needs of the Palestinians are more important than the needs of the good people of Westminster North.

On the way out I was encircled by some aggressive students who told me I was brainwashed and who asked repeatedly how much I was being paid.

So here’s to a less hypocritical and more constructive 2015 although with the May general election on the horizon many British politicians will be using the Palestinians as mere political fodder with which to try to secure their own re-election.

Thank you for all the supportive comments I have had throughout 2014. Thank you to those who have commented on my blog and those who have cross-posted me and many thanks for the support of the team at CIFWatch.

More importantly a huge “thank you” to those who continue to fight against anti-Semitism and Israel’s delegitimisation in the UK but who receive little, if any, credit in return.

A healthy and happy New Year to everyone.

133 responses to “And I only asked why Jews can’t live next to Palestinians on the West Bank….

  1. Hi many thanks

    But cant access the clip unfortunately!

  2. In justifying their Lebesraum policy, the Nazis asked the same Question you are asking: Why Germans can’t live next to Poles, French. etc.? We know the rest of the story.

    • Totally perverted logic. The ethnic cleansers of Jews are excused while those who asked why Jews should be ethnically cleansed from a place they have lived for 3000 years are compared to Nazis.
      I guess the antisemitism in that ‘logic’ is clear.

      • Very clear indeed.
        Isn’t it funny how they condemn themselves from their own mouths?
        I suppose blatant antisemitism is fashionable these days.

      • Antisemitism was always here, hidden, awaiting the perfect conditions to make its resurgence, after being buried by the news of the Holocaust.
        Arabs have spend billions of euros to help destroy the protecting cover and allow antisemitism to go freely.
        These guys aren’t even conscious of their racism, reproducing the 2000-year-old patterns.

  3. a big thank you for your common sense reasoning all year happy new year

  4. Many thanks for your hard and brave work,may you continue it in robust health!Shalom warrior!.

  5. Did you ask them how much they were being paid – or promised property I Palestine?

    Next time also ask why the prat never accepted the June 67 Israeli offer to return to the Green Line in return for a pace treaty ending the conflict and its claims?

  6. 1941 The Grand Mufti meets Hitler

  7. Richard, Thank You! for your tireless exposure of Fascist Islamism and Fascist Socialism which pervades the UK. You literally are on the front lines of a War.

  8. Richard Galber

    Happy New Year and all
    If you ever want company at any of these events let me know

  9. Well Richard, what a way to see out the old year. What have we learned in the past twelve months? Looking back through your blog over the years, the lesson seems to be an increasing acceptance of replacement Palestnianism by many who should know better. For example, 2013 hadn’t yet heard this claim that the Arabs of Palestine had welcomed the Jews escaping the Holocaust. After all van Paassen (The Forgotten Ally) tells us just how duplicitous were the Arabs of Palestine, supported of course by the Colonial Office charged to administer the British Mandated territory they named Palestine following the break up of the Turkish Empire. We all know how Dayan lost his eye defending the route to Damascus for the British to save the French ceding Syria to the Nazis whose ally was Haj Amin Hoseini, the so called Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, supported of course by those very same Arabs who your adverseries claimed had welcomed the Jews escaping Germany. OMG it’s so convoluted one wonders at the collective brain cell they share!

    Nevertheless Richard, despite the tiresome rhetoric, the incessant propaganda, the insults, bile and hatred aimed in your direction, the accusations and threats, here you are as always chronicling these events. We are forever grateful. I for one hope that 2015 will see your role redundant – somehow though I doubt it! Long may you have the strength and resolve to always be present with your camera and recorder so that future generations can tap this resource as testament to the truth.

    Happy 2015 from your friend and ally, the fourth musketeer.

  10. I immigrated to Israel from London 50 years ago, and have never for one second regretted it. I thank G-d every day for granting me the wonderful experience of living in and contributing to the growth of modern Israel. Richard, all your great energy would have been put to good use here. Fighting Moslems in GB is a “King Canute” kind of thing. What a waste of pure, honest energy!

  11. Richard, you are my hero, and your campaign against the Islamists and their useful idiots much appreciated. I write as an ex-Brit who worries about the family left behind.

  12. Best of luck in 2015 in continuing the important work you are doing in denouncing lies. against Israel and exposing anti Semitism . .Keep safe !!

  13. Hi Richard,

    Happy New Year. No links to your clips in your blog post.

    Have a great year in 2015,

    Nick

    • richardmillett

      Thanks.
      Apologies to those who are unable to view the clips for some reason. I am not sure what the problem is.

      • richardmillett

        I have now added a link to the the words “the clip”. So if you are having trouble viewing the embedded clips then please click on the words “the clip” and hopefully you can view. apologies again.

  14. Hi Richard
    A very happy new year to you and once again a big thank you for reporting on these wretched hate filled revisionist meetings .
    As you say of course Apps is not an antisemite , she just demands the elimination of the one Jewish state and its replacement by a single Palestinian state from the River to the Sea . No mention of the small matter that some 6.5 million Israeli Jews ( and a good many non Jewish Israelis ) might not entirely agree with her and that the only way her hair brained objective might succeed is through existential war on an unprecedented scale .
    The fact is that Marxist ideologues such as Apps and Linton could not care less about the Palestinians . Resulting bloodshed is just a means to an end and a necessary sacrifice for the ultimate cause and objective that being the end of Israel .

    Someone in the video called you / us the enemy . The reality is that those in that room and especially Apps and Linton are the true enemies of the Palestinian people as they premise a false and uncontainable objective of a single Palestinian state and by so doing help perpetuate false Palestinian expectations thus prolonging the conflict and the resulting misery inflicted on both people .

    In the end these people are nothing but fascists . Their failure to acknowledge your question tells me all I need to know about them and what passes for the free dissemination (or rather lack of ) history grounded in truth as presented here .

  15. jonathanhoffman1

    great piece

  16. This is what SOAS offers its US colleagues:
    http://eprints.soas.ac.uk/7518/ [The paper] then assesses Nassrallah’s mediated charisma and political-religious discourse and highlights the ways in which both draw on historical and cultural repertoires to produce a hyper-populist narrative that appeals to the intended audience—Lebanese nationals—in a particular historical moment.

    The Department invited the writer to substitute that paper in lieu of the scheduled talk amongst those on the sociolinguistics of dialect code-switching of Arabic, English, and Spanish in media:
    http://arabic.georgetown.edu/page/1242723432938.html

    New publications probably result in more paid invitations to travel and present in various countries.

  17. The German Nazis and misguided friends of the forties by banishing and killing the Jews paved the roads for the Russians and Czechs to throw out the ethnic Germans from: the Sudetenland, the Baltics, the “Volga Germans” and Transylvanian Saxons in 1945 and since.
    Similarly the Moslem tantrum with the modernity chasing the Jews from the Arab World and now France and the rest of Europe eventually will pave the road for a nasty showdown which will leave everybody the poorer. Don’t say you were not warned!

  18. Well done Richard. It is good to see that someone is prepared to fight these misguided people on their own turf. Thanks for keeping us informed about these activities in the UK. Have a successful and happy 2015.

  19. Limmud Trumpton

    did you ask why colonialist Israelis can’t live next to Palestinians on the West Bank? That would be less disingenuous. After all, the Palestinians have almost 50 years’ experience of the Israelis’ brutal military occupation and the colonialists’ immunity from law. Would you want such an arrogant priviledged bunch as neighbours?

    • It’s not just Israel that suffers from brutal, imperialist, arrogant Islamofascism, so does the UK as on the 7/7/05 London transport bombings, Lee Rigby, rape gangs that target non-Muslim girls in the UK, the open threats by Islamofascists for 9/11 scale atrocities on the UK and appeasing Eurabia, the US on 9/11, Fort Hood, Boston Marathon, Pan Am 103, the 1968 assassination of US Senator Robert F. Kennedy by one of your virtuous “palestinians”, Russia by Chechyn terrorists, France, Syria at the hands of ISIS. Kuwait which expelled its “palestinians” for their support of Islamofascisr War Criminal Sadaam Hussein and his invasion of Kuwait.

      limmud trumpton, you have debased yourself with your twisted values.

      • Daniel Marks

        I couldn’t agree more. We just had a distant relatve from Brussels visiting us and after she had gone someone asked me how the Jews are doiing in Belguim. It’s not the Jews of Europe I’m worried about, it’s the Christians. They seem too tired or too old or too over-fed to recognize an existential threat when it stares them in the face or chops off their heads.

        I too wish all my British brothers and sisters – Jew and Gentile alike – a wonderful new year, but you’re all going to have to do a lot more than getting drunk and kissing each other at midnight if you want that to be the case.

        Here is my nomination for Man of the Year. If you don’t want to listen to me, listen to him.

    • LOL! First Israelis cannot be ‘colonialists’ where Jews have lived for thousands of years (ie longer than any other people on Earth), then living among “Palestinians” is forbidden because it would be a death sentence or would need 24/7 protection by the IDF. As the IDF cannot stay in areas A, there is no possibility for Israelis to live, say in Ramallah.
      “Palestinians” have experience of how better life is under Israeli “occupation”, compared to PA/Hamas. 70% of them wouldn’t move to “Palestine”, if it were ever created. Says it all.
      So not only Israel is the best neighbour one can have but it is also the best country to live in, and by far, in the Middle East. No need to list the reasons to a brainwashed antisemite. You know them as well as any other person with two eyes and a brain in the middle… Oooops! I forgot!

  20. jonathanhoffman1

    good

  21. Not sure what anything to do with Marxism has to do with any of this??? Even if there are anti-Zionists and Antisemites throwing in irrelevantly Marxist jargon incorrectly in places. Marx was anti-clerical in a tradition that stretches back to medieval abuse of office by the Church, which like current Islam is the biggest transmitter historic and present, of generalised anti – Jewish feeling of any and every stripe inclusive, and beyond anything to do with Palestine. The quickest way to deal with ignorant would be Marxists is to put them back on their “scientific socialism” claim and reduce them to ridicule with the statistical size of Israel and the Jewish people compared to the rest of the US economy in particular and the World economy in general.

    • Limmud Trumpton

      What’s Marxism got to do with the price of cheese? Is your world that monochrome?

    • That’s why Jews have to control USA. Otherwise, the facts would be so evident that no one would be able to spew their hate of Jews through the demonizing of Israel. It would appear as what it is a small democratic country among the oil-rich dictatorships supported by nostalgics of the Cold War.

  22. Then people should refrain from using the word as a gratuitous epithet that only confuses real discussion.

  23. Splendid about the ideologues: Marxist, fascist, Nazi, Communist and even nationalist.
    NB however that “apartheid S. Africa” and “Jim Crow USA” referred to a very specific type of separation of entrances, buildings, shops and facilities for people of different skin colours and in those historic circumstances of social status with it. Accordingly in the specific historic context “Jim Crow” and “apartheid” mean a certain clear code of malpractice in defiance of The Enlightenment values of human equalities of rights and opportunities and giving out jobs and public office according to merit.
    Otherwise the sloppy use of words as smears and insults does not help clarify nor cure anything.

    • Limmud Trumpton

      Actually I’m still waiting for Richard to answer why he didn’t ask the less disingenuous question: why can’t Israelis live next to Palestinians in the occupied West Bank once the latter hAve their state? Or do we have to wait for a secular democratic state from the Med to the Jordan for that to happen?

      • richardmillett

        I am not sure what you are getting at? what was wrong with my original question?

      • Actually, your question was disingenuous since 6M Jews live together with 1.5M Arabs… In Israel. So, Jews have absolutely no problem with Arabs. But you see, it is difficult to live alongside people who want to kill you and try it every day.

  24. Limmud, it is truly a sign of your lack of intellectual honesty, or perhaps just a lack of histororical knowledge when you call Israelis “colonists”.
    Who but the Arabs are the greatest colonizers the world has ever known? Any Arab country (count ’em) not named Saudi Arabia has not only been colonized, but brutally conquered before being occupied. Ah yes, the “occupied” word.
    Ask the indigenous Peoples of those many lands now ruled by Arabs who the true colonists are, who the true occupiers are.
    Let me see if I can make this excruciatingly easy for you:
    Arabs=Arabia
    Jews=Judea
    Or is it only Jews coming home after thousands of years who are “colonizers”, but Arabs conquering and colonizing a land(s) thousands of miles from Arabia, where they have zero historical context or tradition are in your mind not occupiers?
    I have the answer already, but I just wanted it to be clear to all what a hypocritical anti-Semite you really are.
    Thank you for opening your mouth and erasing all doubt.

  25. Morevover, it is “Palestinians” who refuse to see any Jew where they live. Not only Israelis, not only Zionists, but Jews. Even those who very stupidly support them, like Hass (“hate” in Dutch). Remember that Abbas doesn’t want to see a single Jew is his fairytale Palestine?

    So the legitimate question is “why Jews cannot live among Arabs while the reverse is true?”

    Your problem with the question Richard asked is that you cannot tolerate the answer to it.

  26. Limmud Trumpton

    The problem with the question is that it is the wrong one. It would be more accurate and based on fact to ask why they don’t want to live next to Israelis. Perhaps it’s because they don’t have a very good experience of living next to them – or, more accurately, being occuied by them.

    • Because you take antisemitism as caused by Jews, itself an antisemitic belief.
      You forget that Ramallah isn’t occupied, yet Israelis (the Jewish ones, of course) cannot enter Ramallah. So it is certainly not “occupation” (you forgot the scare quotes). Could it be antisemitic hate? Yes.

  27. So, I’m afraid your question is the wrong one. Why Arabs refused to live with Jews in the first place. They were offerend 99% of the Middle East on a silver platter. Yet that wasn’t enough. Domination of Jews on the 1% remaining was abhorrent to them. “Racism” is the answer why Arabs cannot tolerate Jews. Not occupation (none in Gaza or Ramallah), not bad experience because nothing would happen if Gaza stopped trying to kill Jews and nothing would happen either if PA stopped inciting its citizens to murder Jews when not actively participating to the murder.

  28. Between the Fall of Rome – that Fall of Classical Man if not of Christian Mankind – and the rise of Maritime Europe exemplified by Spain in the Americas and Britain across the World but not forgetting the Portuguese first out last back – the imperialists were and are the Moslems as they have just reclaimed: first as Arabs in the Levant and North Africa, as Turks in Central Asia and the Balkans and as the Moghuls in India. They might have salvaged a lot of classical knowledge but they did as much to smash the South Roman economic unity of the Mediterranean as the Germans did in the North – and by what right other than religious bigotry and the usual God Gold and Glory? Since the Arabs invented astrolabes, windmills and Algebra they have only contributed these five centuries two gratuitous attacks on Vienna and a lot of grief to everybody – themselves not excepted.

  29. Limmud Trumpton

    Richard, I expect even you would admit that the Palestinians’ experience of Jews has not been the happiest. And if Israel describes itself as the Jewish state – or latterly the Nation State of the Jewish People – then perhaps the issue is to disabuse the Palestinians of the notion that Israel represents Jews.

    • richardmillett

      i think the Palestinians’ experience of their own leaders has been the problem, not the Jews. I don’t think Israel describes itself as the Jewish state; it is the Jewish state whether anyone likes it or not. It is majority Jewish. All countries have a majority religion just like in the UK we have Christianity and there are 57 Muslim states.

    • Experience with anyone you would try to kill and who would resist your uninterrupted murderous attempts would be unpleasant. And you only regret the second part, the defensive reaction? Please tell me that this is not the stupidity it seems to be.
      Israel represent Israel, a very large majority of Jews. It is THE Jewish State, just like you wish Palestine to be an Arab State on top of the 22 that already exist and with which you have absolutely no problem.
      Remember that the Partition Plan was clear about it: one state for Jews. Jews were nice enough to share it with Arabs. We don’t expect Arabs to share theirs with Jews.
      But maybe you do what you accuse Israel to do: reject UN resolutions.

  30. Limmud Trumpton

    Richard, Israel does describe itself as a Jewish state. It’s in the Declaration of Independence. So perhaps both the Israelis and Palestinians need to be disabused of the notion that Israel represents Jews.
    Also, maybe you can ask your Israeli friends why under their country’s law Arabs can be barred from Jewish communities by Acceptance Committees.

    • richardmillett

      Israel is a Jewish state but doesn’t represent Jews just like the 57 Muslim states don’t represent Muslims.
      If that’s the case why don’t you ask your Israeli friends?

    • Jews cannot settle in Ramallah. Although Jews don’t wish to massacre Arabs. The reverse isn’t true. So you won’t be surprised that Arabs cannot settle there.

    • Partition Plan is also mentioning a state for Jews. Another for Arabs. Why do you blame only the Jewish State for claiming what UN clearly voted?
      Double standards. You know, one of the three infamous 3 Ds.

  31. Limmud Trumpton

    Richard, Not entirely sure what the Palestinian leadership has to do with this. They didn’t invite in the occupying army or Israel’s colonies. Isn’t your response what I believe is called whataboutery?

    • richardmillett

      They did “invite” it when Arab leaderships started the 1967 war and refused to make peace after it which would have led to the return of what you refer to as “Israel’s colonies”.

  32. Limmud Trumpton

    But it does claim to represent Jews – its Prime Minister does it all the time, thanking world leaders, including some really horrid people (berlusconi, for example) in “the name of the Jewish people”.
    And if I remember correctly, Israel launched the 67 war not the Palestinians

    • richardmillett

      You have just contradicted yourself. First you say “it” then you say the Prime Minister. Prime Ministers change and are merely political personas. I’m not sure that what a PM says holds true for the country per se. Well, If that is your interpretation of 1967 then fine. It differs to many other interpretations.

    • Thanking Berlusconi for Jews? Why not? He did that, if I remember well, as a Jew thanking the son of a mother who defended Jews against Nazis.

    • Btw, who is more horrid, according to you? Abbas or Berlusconi?

  33. Nothing quite like legal detailed ignorance and even greater sociological ignorance to drop yourself into kicking a cowpat.

    Imposing a maritime – or air – blockade is an act of war qv UN Charter backhandedly Art 42, 51, and the Egyptians did just that in May ’67 at which Abba Eban ran round Europe and the USA for a fortnight to get it lifted; but the US did not wish to risk a clash with USSR so it was left to Israel to pick its own chestnuts out of the fire – as usual as in 48 and 56 and since. People who blame Israel for 1948 and ’67 should spend an afternoon in their local reference library reading the witness press files of the time!

    As for acceptance committees at least you get a hearing, and most of the kibbutzim and moshavim were and are organised as the collective equivalent of companies or other forms of closed community not as traditional villages open to entry by purchase of house and land – not that you could have bought your way into an Arab village in Mandate Palestine anyway given the interlock of “hamula /clan ” interests in land. It is tricky enough to enter a West European village as I know from my daughter’s adventures in France. Buying a house is one thing. Securing a living ie a job or who will sell farmland is a bit trickier.

    Try getting fair treatment in any Arab form of society and you will have a rude awakening. For precedent in 1929 the Jewish communities not only of Hebron ands Safed were brutally attacked as NOT acceptance but as a result of the 1929 Arab riots the British evacuated the small Jewish communities of Beer Sheba, Nablus and even Gaza as they were too exposed for police protection in an area of Arab police personnel. As it happens Arab tenancies and ownership does enter New/Upper Nazereth and parts of Jerusalem but these are the relative anonymities of big modern industrial urban areas and as medieval Germans knew well, “Stadtluft macht frei.” It is in town where you escape the village closeness of everybody knowing your business and thoughts before you formulate them yourself.

  34. Limmud Trumpton is either too young to remember 1967 let alone 1948, or has come late to the subject of the Arab vendetta with Israel and has only read Arab leaflets and Grauniad tear jerkers of judiciously omitted facts about Arab undiplomatic brick dropping – recently proven in Iraq, Syria and Libya besides the Algerian civil war of the 1990’s and the Lebanese and Black September civil wars of the 1970’s. As advised before spend an afternoon reading the contemporary press files – the witnesses to Arab intentions at that time never mind their obfuscation since. One advantage of a certain age as HM the Queen said to the nation on the evening of 7/7 is that, “Some of us have been here before.” Arab politics is unduly violent and vicious with it, and they certainly do not take The Enlightenment seriously , though their most Frenchified element Tunis seems to be showing some maturity this month.

    Further there seems to be an unwillingness to recognise that Arabs are also subject to human errors and make silly mistakes which they then dig in on for vanity and conceit and tunnel-vision lack of empathy with non-Arabs. As I pointed out in my first contribution above: the Six day War took the first complete week of June 67 and finished on the Sabbath as befits. By Monday morning having allowed for the time lapse with Washington it was in all the news bulletins that the Israeli Government had asked the USA to “use its good offices” to tell the Arab governments concerned that Israel was willing to: return to the Green Line for a peace treaty that would: (1) end the Arab war on Israel’s existence and (2) end all its claims [inc those of Jewish refugees from Arab countries] (3) turn the Green Line from a temporary cease fire line which the Arab parties had insisted for twenty years was not to be considered a permanent arrangement, into a legal mutually agreed frontier. As it happened, the Arab governments never answered the Israeli offer – not even, “Thanks we’ll think about it,” nor, “Thanks but no thanks.” The Arabs just issued the Khartoum Noes – No recognition! No talks! and No peace! and complained a lot to their own constituency and their misguided romantic friends in the West that they could not possibly negotiate with Israel under the humiliation of defeat. So Sadat spent as much on faking a victory in the 1973 war as he could have spent to build a second Aswan Dam or the Qattara Depression scheme – Vanity vanity ….

  35. Limmud Trumpton

    No contradiction at all, Richard. He is the head of government of the state that calls itself the Jewish state.

    • richardmillett

      We are going round in circles. It is the or a Jewish state but doesn’t represent all Jews despite what the or a Prime Minister says.

    • He is also a Jew. and represents 6M of them. That is half of the world’s Jews. Quite enough to speak for all Jews.

  36. Limmud Trumpton

    Richard, neither Israel nor Netanyahu represents Jews – although Israel and he claim that it and he does

    • You probably had trouble with math in your youth. Netanyahu speaks for 6M of Israeli Jews. So if he cannot speak for Jews, no one can.
      What you say is not only contradictory but plainly stupid.

  37. Interesting Limmud that you have no answer to my comments regarding the colonist nature of all but one Arab country.
    Actually, it’s neither truly interesting nor surprising.
    At any rate it’s always been taking hutzpah to the nth degree for Arabs and their brain-dead apologists to call Israel a colonizer.
    Look at the map.

  38. Sorry! But I heard this Bundist fallacy in the 70’s and 80’s that Israel and its government do not represent Jews but are just another kehilla in the World. Ignorant boneheads and cynics promote both anti- Zionism and Antisemitism as the two sides of the same coin and they could not do as much if it were not for the fact that Israel is a large part of modern Jewish identity both: negatively denied by Bundists from the Hipppie generation – never believe a rumour till it is officially denied; and even by the most blinkered haredim and ultras who are using Israel as a study centre and taking up its culinary differences with Ashkenasi potatoes with everything.
    Israel was always intended to be the Zionist aim of a national home ie cultural centre and reference point of a modernised Jewish people. Some might not like that and the late century saw the World position of the Jewish people being weighted in Poland and the rest of Eastern Europe till the Shoah and then America for the post ’45 generation as the US Community were the biggest surviving element of the Jewish people and had “arrived” so had some money to fund publishing and survivors of the yeshiva World recovering their corpus of knowledge. What has happened these two decades with the melding and settling of the Israeli Jewish community – first and foremost restoring Hebrew to our prime language and so oeasy access to our cultural corpus – and the collapse of the USSR and now France is that Israel is the lead kehilla of the World in Jewish identity with fewest hang-ups and Jewish studies of all sorts – modern archaeology and literature as much as traditional Talmudics and observances. A lot of people might not like all of this but it makes no reality to ignore what is happening for real. Israel represents Jews as one of our public images even as when I was a boy in the French side of my family I realised pretty quickly that for most people who encountered me I was “English” despite myself and had to behave carefully. The Diaspora although still 8 of the 14 million Jews in the World has been trailing Israel in diet and music since the 80’s and now as a study and publishing centre.

    • Limmud Trumpton

      From riling against the use of Marxism, you go to making allegations of Bundism. Be that as it may, Bundism was/is actually right

      • Bundists were so right that they were but eradicated by Nazis. A few survived in Israel, where they can freely continue having delusions, and most went to USA, to benefit from the capitalism they loathed.

  39. Or as my Mother would have exclaimed, “Der liegt der Hund begraben.” “That’s where the dog is in the ditch!”
    The Bund was wrong on two counts: like everybody – except Nordau – on misjudging the impending Shoah which turned out to be he biggest Zionist “Told you so!” ever; second in funding Lenin’s Bolshevik faction pre-1914. Russia would have done far better on the centre parties of the Feb/Kerensky revolution without the Civil War.

    • Limmud Trumpton

      Frank, the Bund fought Nazism, tooth and nail. Some Zionist organisations chose to abandon the fight and flee. I concur, however, regarding the Bolsheviks

      • The Bund fought Nazism because that was the only thing they had left to do. They did it with all others. So, no, not Bundists. Just Jews.

  40. The whole point of Zionism was to dodge a battle that could not be won – as turned out so. Nevertheless the Zionists cornered in Europe – and they were significant in the Warsaw Ghetto Battle – did fight, which was lot more than most of the cotton picking political quietist wash out rabbinate ever did.
    The Bund was part of the idea that with liberal nationalism and The Enlightenment we could all be citizens together regardless of denominations or ethnicities the model being the Republic whether in France or the US, the only two truly secular states of the time – or since. You can see this vision turn up in the mouth of Ken Livingstone who fails as a mayor even of a big city to comprehend that where the state holds the ring honestly, the people can be themselves. When there is no state or the state is as bent and controversial as an instrument of intolerant supremacy, things are not so simple and people are best endowed with their own state even as though I grew up in two room flats my parents were clever enough to manage that my brother and myself each had our own corner, desk and bookshelf. The Bund fought the Nazis and much else in the name of an Enlightenment society well and good; but it went down fighting and defeated like HMS Jervis Bay and others without achieving as much. The Zionists a bit like the Yavne Rabbis managed to resurrect Jewish life and self respect.

    • Limmud Trumpton

      Frank, Richard: That’s the thing about Zionists – they are always running away. It’s what their philosophy is based on. Not standing and fighting against racism in their own countries but running away to the Middle East where they can lord it over some other people.
      That’s why the European antisemites were/are so enamoured of Zionism. It helped to solve their “Jewish problem” and it gave them a vehicle through which the European antisemites could control another group of what they considered sub-humans.

  41. Limmud Trumpton

    Not sure that the Zionists, who indeed ran away, did resurrect Jewish life or self-respect, per se. I don’t think Jewish life or self-respect needed resurrecting. It was still there – although the Zionists tried to negate anything that they couldn’t run.
    There’s a debate about the Warsaw ghetto – first as to whether the leader Mordechai Aniliewitz was actually a Zionist or whether they claimed him posthumously. Second whether the Betaris who did a runner with weapons actually hindered the cause.

    • LOL! Zionists not only survived, which is the first and foremost important thing in wars, but they understood that they needed to be able to defend themselves. Unlike Bundists who were mostly slaughtered in the ghettos then in the death camps.
      Zionists survived instead of being slaughtered, because they went to Israel. They understood the need before the war, as they were attacked by Arab terrorists since the 1920s. In 1948, they were as ready as can be and withstood the hordes of savages who went in to finish with them as the Nazis did with Bundists.

  42. There are evidently some romantics of the glorious defeat in this column who think it better to hang about and be massacred to no purpose in somebody else’s fight rather than to side step and fight another day on ground that is ours and defensible. The boneheads of Massada as compared to the rabbis of Yavne! If you think that Israel has not revived and integrated streams of Jewish life, culture and self respect then you have been deliberately closing your eyes to the fact that the Jews of the Arab countries would have gone up in Arab nationalist violence in the same sort of nonsense as in Europe even if not in the same mechanisms. Further that the revival of Hebrew and actual living in Israel with the seasons and harvests as pertinent to the religion makes a comprehensive and comprehending difference. Just think for a moment if another million or even a 100 000 Polish Jews had got to British Palestine before the war! The Poles who i Exile in Edinburgh during the war still tried to enforce their ghetto bench system in medical school classes, and Germans and Post ’45 Soviets certainly proved that (Bundist or any Jews) were not going to be allowed to fight Antisemitism or any other racism in Poland – not before 1939 and not AFTER 1945 when Stalin deliberately aggravated ethnic relations between Poles and Jews.
    The crassest remark above is the allegation that the Zionists wanted lord it over others in the Middle East. Their political homework at the time was scrappy to put it politely, but rule others was not their object. Read the lyric of the te’cHazachna — the Labour Zionist song about building the land and being built by it. The fact that the in the end the Israelis had to fight for their independence and have been left hanging by Arab refusals to conclude a peace is another story. Suffice to say for the moment is that there is a remarkable number of psychological immaturities about who having discovered that their own side play politics have decided to believe only their enemies and fail to check that enemies also play politics fast and loose with history and the present facts and practices.
    As the oil price collapses before US fracked gas it will also calm the motor mouths in Iran, Russia and Venezuela and the, “soft loans from Allah,” braggarts so we might at last see an end to foreign aid to the PA as if there is no tomorrow. That might create some sense and willingness to compromise in those parts.

    • Limmud Trumpton

      Frank, Techazakna is typical of the Zionist philosophy – but not in the good way as you suggest. It is typically blood and land.
      And in the end, Yavne failed too, and as Israel will become a sad footnote in Jewish history.
      People weren’t “hanging about to be massacred”, as you suggest. Quite the opposite; they stood their ground and fought against tyranny, racism and hatred.
      The Bundists were the true heroes of the Jewish community, not the Zionists who upped sticks and left their brethren.
      Up till now, history has been kind to the Zionists. Not sure it will last though.

      • LOL! Israel isn’t a sad footnote of history. Israel is the successful state that we can easily see today while all the racists around and yourself are failures.
        Bundists were massacred. Only those who weren’t stupid enough took refuge in Mandate Palestine before it was too late. Their offspring continue their nefarious task here, so we know them quite well.
        Other Bundists went to USSR and became the most ruthless murderers within the Stalinian regime. Others went to USA, the best example of what they were fighting in Poland.
        The ideology of the Bundists were defeated by the Zionists. Nothing is left of them (joke!), just sad deluded individuals that will end emigrating to another country, the eternal wandering Jews, until they disappear among other nations.

  43. ” Israel will become a sad footnote in Jewish history.”
    You are not the only jackass wishing ill for Israel, and anguishing over Israels resilience.

    May all your dreams turn in to personal Nakbas.

  44. That some Bundists and other Jews in Europe fought does not change the fact that they were indisputably overwhelmed and defeated for lack of economic and organisational or military knowledge and resources. Not the only military history incident of, “If you have to go; take one with you,” but alternatives make more sense given war is ultimately a political act. Israel will never be just a sad footnote in Jewish history even if it becomes an chapter – Yiddish Eastern Europe is now a closed chapter best let to rest quietly. Israel has achieved too much in the understanding of the Bible and its archaeology and the re-issue of newer modern commentated editions of Talmud and much else – quite apart from secular knowledge and developments – and it did save the Jews of the Arab World from nationalist massacre. The basic Bundist attitude that you can run a Yiddish autonomous Jewish society on the modern World just does not hold up first because Yiddish has never been adapted to cope with the post 1945 World’s technical and political changes. Second because as the Sephardim of 50’s Israel ribbed Golda Meir justifiably, Yiddish is divisive of the House of Israel where Hebrew is uniting. Third the premise that being Jewish – or any other religion – is a side issue to life in The Enlightenment did not wash in pre-Holocaust Europe and now does not wash in the post colonial Islamist mania revival. This is not because of The Enlightenment nor a Jewish fault but the blinkered attitudes of others’ fears for their identities. If indeed being Jewish is to spread its wings, as being Christian has spread its wings far beyond Church services, Jews need a secure patch that is their own where they can safely ring all the changes and variants of the culture to destruction if need be. Let us just remember as the Islamists get on their high horses and humourlessly shoot their critics that in the last resort it was Anglophone Protestants that ended the slave trade and more important created the modern vision of egalitarian society for everybody and opportunity for all talents on merit while the Shar’ia maniacs still deny equality to their own women – and ALL KAFFIRS.

    • Limmud Trumpton

      Frank, I understand what you are saying, I just don’t think it is correct.
      What you are suggesting is that if you think the odds are against you, then you turn and scarper. If that were the case, then we Jews would be totally screwed – even in Israel.
      But the Zionist ideal is to want us to turn and scarper -as they did – and not fight against racism and for what we know is right.
      That’s why after the terrible events today in Paris we see a huge number of Zionists and Israel supporters rubbing their hands with glee. In Israel it’s called dancing on the blood.
      #jesuisjuif #jesuischarlie #jesuisahmed

      • richardmillett

        Omg you really wrote that? How sick minded of you.

      • “limmud trumpton”, You are sick and depraved – just like the islamofascist terrorists who held Paris hostage for several day.

        This latest islamofascist atrocity will succeed in generating more outrage disgust with islamism. These attacks benefit anti-muslim/anti-immigrant right wingers and left wing anarchists who strive to create a Civil War in Eurabia.

      • Again the same incorrect reading. Must be in the water. No, the Zionists didn’t turn away against unprobable odds but certain useless deaths, like that of idiotic Bundists. Death to make a point, we see today in one category of idiots: Islamists.
        And we see them dancing in the blood of their victims singing #jesuischarlie. You gave an excellent example here.

  45. Limmud Trumpton

    Sick? No a reflection of what being written and said in past few days.

  46. Military history is full of go down fighting incidents – I mentioned the Jervis Bay which saved a convoy from the Admiral Scheer – and also of incidents when a force has extracted itself too fight triumphantly again another day – a British speciality from Walcheren 179? to Corunna 1808 to Dunkirk in 1940?
    In 40’s Europe it made sense if there to go down fighting if you had to BUT it also made sense to create Israel. You are NOT very clear on why you doo not like Israel other than a very delicately protests too much conscience about failure to have converted the East European fascists and communists to the liberal values of The Enlightenment ???????

    • Limmud Trumpton

      Frank, I do not like the idea of Israel because I do not like the idea of monoethnic nationalism where people of other faith groups have no share or stake in their country’s future.
      I do not like it because it uses false victimhood as a foreign policy
      I do not like it because it has diverted far too much attention and resources away from our real fight against fascism and racism in our own countries.
      And I don’t like it because Jewish communities have become subservient to its policies.

      • richardmillett

        Do you speak out against Islamic countries?

      • Israel, monoethnic? LOL! You muist dearly confuse with the neighboring countries! Jews are not even monoethnic! Then there are Israeli Arabs, Druzes, and now Arameans.
        Then, the false victimhood? What victimhood are you talking about and how false can it be? You want to figth? We have the IDF here. Welcome! You want to fight abroad? Please stay there!
        You don’t like the idea of a state where communities serve for the better good? Choose any one of our neigbours!
        You’re a clown!

  47. Corrigendae on British escapes – Flanders 1793 – 5 when Wellington noted what not to do; Corunna and Walcheren both 1809; and Dunkirk 1940. The Bill Slim in Burma in ’42 of which it was said later in his victorious ’44 – ’45 campaign over the Japanese, “Everywhere they gave him a bashing going out, he bashes them going back.”

  48. The 2nd, 3rd and 4th LT dislikes are arguable matters of degree; but the first is blinkered aping of Arab slanders – and perhaps erstwhile Soviet propaganda.
    All modern states of any worth – which does NOT include any of the religiously persecuting Arab states – tolerate minorities and as much was envisaged in Herzl’s ALTNEULAND and the Balfour Declaration itself. The aim of Zionism was an Enlightenment state and society of the latest belle epoque liberalism, qv Weizmann’s memoirs “Trial and Error” admiration for Manchester liberalism. Further Israel as it turned out has a fifth Arab minority – even though it sank to an eighth in the 60’s. Given the Poles could not stick a tenth Jewish minority nor the Germans a 1% Jewish minority and like medieval Europe are now singing, “Rendons nos juifs si bons et debonnairs;” like would be borrowers in late medieval Europe after the expulsions of Jews and the arrival of Italian bankers. Israel does pretty well DESPITE the wars which Cousin Ishmael has viciously and unduly prolonged; and if peace prevailed would have eased off the social situation and made life easier between Israeli Jews and Arabs. Do remember that a lot of Jews from Arab countries do NOT have happy memories of the experience and certainly not of their departures. The way people rigidly expect Jews to be plaster saints and excuse Arabs violent political immaturities is one of the odd features of all discussions about Israel. Relatively the Moslems of Europe have been treated with kid gloves precisely because of the 40’s and it is notorious that despite imperfections of Israeli society Israeli Arabs have more rights and opportunities then many Arabs in Arab countries, never mind Jews in pre 1939 Europe.

    Most countries that work harmoniously are majority societies and those that have substantial minorities work by giving everybody a corner to themselves for their own “Spanish customs.” France is 90% French. GB is 85% English on 55% of territory and the Celtic fringe has its three bedrooms on 45% territory and 15% population. Canada works because the Canadiens have Quebec to themselves even if the rest of the country has had to learn some French and uses that like metric measurements to thumb noses at the USA. Belgium is two halves – sleeping separately for the moment but still together. Most interesting are the Swiss where within a defence and economic union each of the 24 cantons is independent on education welfare and homogeneous linguistically and religiously. The idea that the Jews should be the ones to be minoritaire and be privileged to be beaten for this is ridiculous and eventually did not work. There are limits to ill treatment. As somebody observed very pertinently: all the Zionist founding fathers were failed assimilationists who had wanted to be equal citizens in an Enlightenment Society but were badly let down by the crass religious and nationalist ideological bigotries of the time. Herzl – Neue Freie Presse’s “Alastair Cooke ” in Paris did write, “Der Judenstaat,” during the Dreyfus Affair in France the home of the Enlightenment, as France was having a hissy fit of the nats. Nordau and Tchernikovsky were both married out….

    • Freedland is a dunce. First they came for the Jews… As they could not reach them, they came for cartoonists on the way. (Jews among them). Then they came for the Jew again.

  49. Limmud Trumpton

    Richard, oh look there’s a squirrel…
    As far as I am aware Islamic states don’t claim to be democracies – which is what Israel claims to be

  50. Limmud Trumpton is Richard Armbach and I claim my bottle of Palwin 10 . Stop being such a maiven RM . Out the scumbag

  51. Fewer insults and more “explication de texte” would make better progress.
    None of the Islamic nor Arab states are democracies, but Britain had and has a good claim to be one yet in both World Wars and at war had a far harder clamp down on the press – and ostracism of empathetic reporting or discussion about Germany than Israel has ever had about any or all Arabs. Just compare the scandal caused and hushed up by Bishop Bell of Chichester’s objection to Harris bombing civilians and the running discussion in Israel about the need to be more constructive about the Arab opposite numbers – that often neglects the lot worse Arab attitudes to Jews and Israel.
    The charge of false victimhood is disingenuous from current hindsight and not unjustified given the way the great powers for: oil, Suez, the Cold War, and UN votes have all colluded in unjustified tolerance of the Arab grudge match with Israel’s very existence and unduly supported the political exceptionalist non-sense of the return of the families of the refugees of 1948 – many of whom were exactly trying to return to family in Egypt before being shut out by “Farook the Crook’s” provost. Ever heard of the German “lost provinces” grumble of the Cold War 50’s. The Germans deserved to lose those provinces in the name of which they had unleashed WW II for a Greater Germany and German supremacy in Europe. Ditto the Arab losses in 1948 – just read the press files of 1947 – 48.

    Whoever is hiding under “Limmud Trumpton” is evidently stuck in the 30’s mindset and tropes about a far more fine focus and self-publicised fascism then that no longer exists as a pretension to an ideology with a practical programme; besides a Soviet Cold War publicist using 30’s bogies to divert from the confrontation with authoritarian pretensions to Communism.
    Then there is the dubious idea of over resourcing Israel at the expense of the “real fight” against fascism and racism in, “our own countries.” Are our countries “our countries” ? and fighting fascism and racism as in the 30’s is out of date. As it happens serious efforts have been made since the 60’s inclusive to make prejudice and bigotry bad manners and not acceptable – at least in UK – and the “New Commonwealth” and Moslem migrations to Europe have been relatively treated with kid gloves compared to what happened in their time to Jews, Irish and Poles in France and Germany. There is also the embarrassing question about the disaffected and marginalized as to what extent are they simply those families that have not been so immediately successful in their new lives here as many others have been? To what extent has their refusal or failure to mount the educational ladder been their refusal to take the local setting seriously and se anything not in their book as not knowledge? I have seen any number of professional plates on doors with Arabic names both here and in France and people like the Kouachi brothers and many others have to also ask what is the point of attacking embassies or Jews or publicists? It has not worked in the past and is unlikely to work now.

    • Reason doesn’t work with brainwashed Islamists such as Armbach.

    • Limmud Trumpton

      Frank, Bogies? What bogies? The BNP aren’t bogies? The Front Nationale aren’t bogies. The al-qaeda bunch in France aren’t bogies. Pegida aren’t bogies.
      And what’s the Zionist answer? Run away! Run away! Divert your resources to Israel!

      • Eurabia didn’t want Jews.

        Now Eurabia has millions and millions of Muslims who don’t care to assimilate, but are inspired to impose Sharia law on Eloi Eurotrash.

        Hence the7/7/05 London transport bombings, the beheading of British soldiers on the streets of London, the rape gangs that target non-Muslim girls, the bombing of Pan Am 103 and the later “compassionate” release of the bomber on supposed “compassionate” grounds (Blood for Libyan Oil contracts for BP), the plot to assassinate Queen Elizabeth, the Charlie Hebdo massacres.

        I hope the decadent Eurotrash don’t run away to the New World because I fear they would try to screw up the Americas as they screwed up their former settlements in Eurabia.

      • LOL! BNP is in England, Problem of the British, Armchair! The “Zionists” (you mean “Jews”, of course) have their own problems: terrorists. And they’re doing fine. Are you?

  52. The BNP are ridiculous and every time elected to a council seat lose it because they can not read the committee papers nor understand what is going on in a Town Hall. Farage will be a busted flush once he gets his leave €urope referendum as well because he does not have any constructive ideas. In a way he exemplifies how it is sometimes silly to stay and piss against the political wind given just how much of the press are with him and similarly elsewhere. Most of the 20’s and 30’s East European Jews stayed and perished for lack of travel funds and lack of visas because the West did not want them and from Eastern Europe Jews could not affect US and UK visa rules – but are you saying they did better? and if they had moved it was better to go tot North America than to build Israel?
    Al Qaeda are not the fascist fascists of the 30’s but straight medieval clerical authoritarians of the blinkered belief that forcing women into yashmaks and men into head-banging prayers 5x a day makes great society. Don’t hold your breath! Tunisia has just voted out the dumbos and ISIS might yet collapse sooner than expected because enforcing personal pieties does not butter parsnips. Charles I, Louis XVI and Nicky II were all sincerely pious too but made poor politics.
    Pegida could turn nasty but have a point with the FN given how Moslems impose hallal on school canteens, howl down history lessons which has now returned to bite them; and the violence in the World since the collapse of the Cold War does come from the Moslem World especially its fringes.
    If you are one of those families of ex north African Jews in France who has not “made it” into the professions nor further up the business tree than small shop owner then it is unfair of you to ask them to fight far bigger waves than they are, when they can barely swim. If they now get fed up and up sticks just be grateful you are not under their pressures.

    • Limmud Trumpton

      Frank, the BNP are a joke, but they have very violent friends in Column 88, Combat 18 and the EDL. I didn’t mention Ukip on purpose because they are the Tories circa 1955.
      Al-Qaeda are most certainly dangerous in Europe and possibly in the UK, too (I know the UK is in Europe – sort of), viz France over the past few days.
      And no I am not saying that European Jews did better. Quite the opposite, and that’s because Jewish communities around the world became subservient to the Zionist idea rather than rebuilding in their own countries.
      Zionism is a bit like Shabtai Tzvi – a false messiah.

      • Armchair, your are a deluded messiah. Modern Zionism is an offspring of Polish socialism. And it did its part. The stupid Bundists didn’t do theirs. They just died trying. And you’re on the same track.

  53. Limmud Trumpton

    Frank, I am not saying that European Jews did better. Quite the opposite, and that’s because Jewish communities around the world became subservient to the Zionist idea rather than rebuilding in their own countries. Too many resources were diverted to what is ultimately a vanity project.
    The BNP are a joke, but they have very violent friends in Column 88, Combat 18 and the EDL.
    I didn’t mention Ukip on purpose because they are the Tories circa 1955 – iritating but ultimately of no consequence.
    Al-Qaeda are most certainly dangerous in Europe and possibly in the UK, too (I know the UK is in Europe – sort of), viz France over the past few days.
    Zionism is a bit like Shabtai Tzvi – a false messiah.

  54. Jews who managed to run away in the years leading up to WW2 and the survivors post Holocaust, resulted in a Brain Drain for Europe and Brain GAIN for America, Canada, Australia and Israel.

    Eurabia will have to learn, from experience, that appeasing Islamofascism is a losing game.

  55. I never fail to be surprised at how our enemies(?) skate on out of date information a generation beyond sell-by; or in this case on historical ignorance. Before the Shoah Zionism was a minority interest in the World’s Jewish communities not on the least because from the East, the West looked easier to make a living in and take up family connections in than the then miniscule Yishuv, and in the West the Depresssion and the first post immigration generation were finding their feet. It was after the Shoah that Zionism capture the Jewish imagination as the biggest, “Told you so!” in History. For the record the “red nappy ” Jews who did stay in 1945 were eventually thrown out – especially by Gomulka’s Poland from where many preferred Germany or Scandinavia, or preferred to leave post Soviet Russia as Brezhnev had revived the ultra right nationalist, “Bash Yids,” sort of nationalism – or enough of it to encourage departure. Further the vast bulk of the US Jews who provided the fewest olim post ’45 till even now, stayed and prospered mightily on the GI Education Bill bringing the US no end of arts and science honours to the point that being Jewish or marrying Jews is now fashionable “across the pond.” Whether that is good for Jewish history remains to be seen?
    To call Zionism a false Messiah is a rational statement, but to compare it to Shabetai Zvi is rabbinically ridiculous weighing apples and pears instead of apples and apples. Zvi was a vain individual who when threatened for his life turned Moslem of a sort. Zionism is collective movement with a lifetime of ever improving economy and Hebrew mastery, growing population and is NOT likely to vaporise in an afternoon – nor even a year.
    As for Col 88, EDL and Combat 18 are all too small to take seriously compared to other Jewish projects like Limmud, Israel or just getting on with life, besides they are a menace to others as well and we are not alone in squaring them off. UKIP on the other hand are short term dangerous because though the “Back to the 30’s” wing of Tory discontents they have succeeded in turning the tabloids to concentrate on the narrow immigration question instead of the broad field of policy and as such could be part of getting Cameron and Osborne back into power this summer which will do down everybody except the top tenth of the wealth chart. No doubt some would like that to the good Leninist principle that things must be worse before they get better. No – My late Mother lived through Lenin and co as my late Father lived through the Bela Kun episode; and both were fortunate to get out and survive.

    • Limmud Trumpton

      Not overnight, not in a month and probably not five years. I give it 10-15 till it becomes a secular democratic state btw the river and the sea.
      You say Shabetai Tzvi was vain, and you are right. And that vanity has been transferred to Zionism – it’s an introspective and self-aggrandising popinjay of an ideology, like all monoethnic 19th century European nationalism. The thing is most other European nationalisms have moved on, whereas Zionism hasn’t.
      Indeed before the war, Zionism was a minority sport. And it will return to be such once communities realise they’ve been taken for a ride and wasted huge resources on it.

      • BTW, Israel is already a democratic state and it is mostly secular. I remind you that UK to has a state religion. You are a vain “messiah” trying to impose your delusions to those who see facts clearly. Needless to say, Armchair, you lost.
        Zionism a minority before the war? Which war ? WW I? Was it because of that that UK promised a jewish home to Jews? in 1917.

  56. If even one Arab state were as secular, democratic, tolerant and prosperous across its society’s sectors – despite its neighbours’ vindictive aggravations – wouldn’t it be lovely for the Arab World. If Israel and the Arabs have not “moved on” from a narrow sovereignty battle remember Cromwell’s letter to the Scots, “I beseech you in the bowels of Christ to consider you may be wrong.” The Arabs have spent 66 years trying too return violently to the 1947 situation that they the Arabs themselves kicked over the apple cart. As Golda once said, “When they love their children more than they hate us… “or was it, “I can forgive them a lot but not turning our boys into killers.” Indeed Israel will be even more secular democratic in time but also because with the end of the Arab petro-era the West will be end its aid to the PA and UNWRA and a lot of Arabs will as till 1988 ex-filtrate and emigrate to better jobs in Arabic speaking Sunni Moslem countries – which could do their bit at last to wipe up the mess they made of 1948 and 1967 ….
    One thing is definite. The sort of Diaspora Jew who will pay something to Israeli charities for: WIZO nurseries, Aleh disabled children, JNF forests, reservoirs and Israel guide dogs never mind yeshivot and universities is NOT going to be paying much, if anything(?) into the anticlerical “groupuscules de la gauche” for “anti -fascism,” seen on Diaspora streets as anti-Zionism and romantic sympathy for a violent bunch of Arab jokers calling themselves Philistines.

    • Limmud Trumpton

      Frank, Meir said neither of those things. It’s urban myth put about by Zionists to show their alleged concern for their neighbours.

  57. I’m again censored by Millet, btw.

  58. ANY OTHER LIE , ARMCHAIR?

    http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Golda_Meir
    “Peace will come when the Arabs will love their children more than they hate us.”
    Statement to the National Press Club in Washington, D. C. in 1957, as quoted in A Land of Our Own : An Oral Autobiography (1973) edited by Marie Syrkin, p. 242

    “When peace comes, we will perhaps in time be able to forgive the Arabs for killing our sons, but it will be harder for us to forgive them for having forced us to kill their sons.”
    Press conference in London (1969), as quoted in A Land of Our Own : An Oral Autobiography (1973) edited by Marie Syrkin, p. 242

  59. Alright L T, when do you hand out the Palwin? and perhaps you could fill us out on you d.o.b profession and education? You seem to lived a life in blinkers – or rather political pamphlets without looking and listening to actual people. My late Mother lived in her comfort blanket of Russian novels all her life and then wondered why she could not understand aspects of the World as actual.

  60. Limmud Trumpton

    Frank, not sure why that is relevant, but in answer to your questions –
    D.o.B – 7.3.1952
    Profession – Retired (but now a risk management consultant)
    education – Philosophy, Politics and Economics MA (Oxon – Lincoln, if you must know) and DPhil at St Antony’s