Jenny Tonge attacks Israel for not obeying the Ten Commandments.

Baroness Tonge and Manuel Hassassian last night.

Baroness Tonge and Manuel Hassassian last night.

Last night in Parliament (ex-Liberal Democrat) Baroness Jenny Tonge said “If they had only obeyed their own Ten Commandments and half the stuff in the Old Testament…Israel could have been a force for good in the world” (see clip here from 8 mins. 35 secs.)

Tonge was speaking at the Palestine Return Centre event Britain, It’s Time To Apologize for the Balfour Declaration.

Also speaking was Bradford East MP David Ward who in January condemned Jews who “could within a few years of liberation from the death camps, be inflicting atrocities on Palestinians in the new State of Israel and continue to do so on a daily basis in the West Bank and Gaza”.

In July he tweeted that “the Zionists are losing the battle – how long can the apartheid State of Israel last?”. He was temporarily suspended from the Liberal Democrats.

But, last night, he claimed he had been suspended for something he didn’t say:

“I didn’t say Israel shouldn’t exist but that it should never have been created. I said it was an apartheid state. If Israel isn’t an apartheid state then find me one that is.”

And last night he said “Israel are winning. We are losing hands down”. His main concern was that there is no proper plan to counteract this. But it’s certainly quite a change from his July claim “the Zionists are losing”!

Also speaking was Lord Ahmed Nazir who was jailed in 2009 for dangerous driving where another road user died. Nazir then blamed his imprisonment on a Jewish conspiracy.

Last night he claimed that “we have a great moral responsibility” and “a huge burden on our conscience” in light of the Balfour Declaration.

“East Jerusalem is being evacuated slowly, there is ethnic cleansing of Palestinian people. Whether they are Christian or they are Muslim they are being thrown out of their own country,” he continued. (see clip here)

Jenny Tonge added Israel has the right to exist but “it must start behaving properly and treat people in the Middle East the way they want to be treated”. She said Israel is a “threat to world peace and a threat to itself” and continued:

“We must take on the pro-Israel lobby. We will not be silenced. We are not anti-Semitic, we are anti-injustice. What happened to the Palestinians is the greatest injustice in the last 100 years.

They are clever. They call it the Jewish state of Israel so if you criticise the Jewish state they say you are criticising Jews and that you are anti-Semitic. But it is directed against the Israeli government, not the Jewish people. Many Jews join us.

We must boycott Israeli goods. The Israel lobby puts so much pressure on politicians. We must do the same.”

Manuel Hassassian, the Palestinian Authority’s diplomatic representative in the UK, condemned the Balfour Declaration. He said the Palestinians had been denied the right to self-determination and their basic human rights “due to the pledge by Great Britain to the Zionists”.

He said the Palestinian “right of return” was a “sacred right” and that the “non-Judaisation of the state of Israel is our red line”.

Hassassian continued by saying that Israel is acting as a “pariah state” and “let the Israelis go to hell” and that he would only negotiate with the Israelis when they had first drawn Israel’s borders for him.

He finished by saying “together we can march to Jerusalem” where there should be “no monopoly of one religion at the expense of others. Israel’s Jerusalem is a slap in the face of humanity.”

Meanwhile, if I was living in the Bradford East parliamentary constituency I would be flummoxed to see my MP David Ward spending a disproportionate amount of his time attacking Israel. Have the people of Bradford East had all their problems solved?

The 2015 general election is not too far away and Ward has a tiny majority. Maybe it’s time for the people of Bradford East to elect someone who focuses more on them.

192 responses to “Jenny Tonge attacks Israel for not obeying the Ten Commandments.

  1. starofdavidscotland

    Hahahaha. What a bunch of Jewhate lying ignorant fascist scum wankers all

    Sent from Els iPhone

    >

  2. starofdavidscotland

    Luck many Muslims ARE obeying their commandments causing all the terrorism and hate in the ME and all over the world

    How r 1.5billion Christians doing with theirs u lying bitch

    Sent from Els iPhone

    >

  3. starofdavidscotland

    Whether they are Christian or they are Muslim they are being thrown out of their own country,” he continued. (see clip here)

    Ah but isn’t the conference about the Balfour Declaration

    NOW SPOT THE CONTRADICTION

    Which gave the whole of Palestine to WHO? Ya pathetic old Fascist prick

    Sent from Els iPhone

    >

  4. Reblogged this on and commented:
    Priceless, first anti-Zionists mock the claim that the Bible is a 3,000 year old document that should be ignored because it promised the Jewish people the land of Israel, now the same Bible is invoked to attack Israel for not living up to the Ten Commandments. Tell me, which country does!?

  5. “I didn’t say Israel shouldn’t exist but that it should never have been created.”

    I could – and do – criticise plenty of people who direct lies and hatred at Israel. However, many of them are far from stupid.

    The more David Ward speaks, and writes, about Israel, the, rem, less intelligent he seems. (That was the most polite way I could put that.)

  6. “What happened to the Palestinians is the greatest injustice in the last 100 years.”

    More so than the Shoah, Jenny?

    • Her response would be along the lines of, “Oh, there you go again, carrying on about the Holocaust!”

      (You can’t win with these people, as you know.)

    • She is so ignorant that she doesn’t realise that the Jews were the Palestinians, until the name was purloined by the Arabs (most of whom had immigrated illegally into Palestine encouraged by the British) once the Palestinians had become the Israelis.
      What a brilliant idea, steal the name and then the land to go with it….most people are utterly ignorant of the history.
      Oh I forgot, some of the Arabs are very well educated….here’s one:—

      “The Palestinian people does not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct ‘Palestinian people’ to oppose Zionism.
      “For tactical reasons, Jordan, which is a sovereign state with defined borders, cannot raise claims to Haifa and Jaffa. While as a Palestinian, I can undoubtedly demand Haifa, Jaffa, Beer-Sheva and Jerusalem. However, the moment we reclaim our right to all of Palestine, we will not wait even a minute to unite Palestine and Jordan.” (PLO executive committee member Zahir Muhsein, March 31, 1977, interview with the Dutch newspaper Trouw.) The Palestinian leadership, including Ahmed Shukar and Yasir Arafat, has openly admitted Palestinian “peoplehood” is a fraud; Read This (PLO executive committee member Zahir Muhsein, March 31, 1977, interview with the Dutch newspaper Trouw).

  7. Bradford East correct me if i’m wrong has a very large Moslem majority. I don’t think they would be “flummoxed” at their MP spending a disproportionate amount of time attacking Israel .

  8. Quite frankly, the baroness is right about our not obeying the 10 commandments – Rabbi Kook had a very similar view.

    But as for “a force for good in the world” – well, 21% of all Nobel Prize winners from 1901 til 1990 are/were Jewish, , 123 Jews out of a total 593 laureates. As opposed to 7 Moslem winners in that period.

    • And practically all the Nobel winners, including the jews, were from well funded western centres of research and education. Most jews live in the west, where there’s funding. So you can drop the racism.

    • And concentrating on the science/medicine ones, out of one and a half billion Muslims, there have only been 2, one of whom was half British.
      Without Jewish inventiveness and creativity the world would be living in the dark ages.

  9. She’s at it again! It must be in the water, or whatever she drinks!

  10. Lynette, I suggest you look at this website
    http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/guide/seat-profiles/bradfordeast/
    which shows that Bradford East does not have a “large Muslim majority”. But don’t let your prejudice get in the way of facts.

  11. Tonge is now an embarrassment to all UK.

  12. Pingback: Contradictory David Ward says, “Israel… should never have been created” | Trending Central

  13. Racism? That’s a very Christian attitude. Try reading Rabbi Yehuda HaLevi’s Kuzari for the Jewish viewpoint. (Irefer to the parable of the vineyard).

    • I bet you must be really pissed that the Jewish Chronicle has a new Chairman and Board which supports the New Israel Fund and Yachad.

      • “chaim pesach” still using his same old trolling tactics, from old JC days. Once a troll…

      • Not really.
        No one cares what the “Organ of British Jewry” thinks, or about the views of Steven “this is just a gap job till I get the editorship of the Times or Telegraph” Pollard.
        The London Jewish News has a far larger readership, and its just a matter of time until the JC’s declining leadership will guarantee its demise.

  14. Racism, he says! FYI, the Arab nations are some of the world’s richest. Shortage of funds for education? Sory, doesn’t even reach the starting line.

    • Unfortunately the Nobel Prize committee doesn’t have a prize for best suicide bomber belt, best IED, best passenger plane hijacking, best beheading.

      It’s gotta be racism or Islamophobia to ignore the contributions to Humanity of al qada.

  15. Avraham Reiss

    “So why no muslim Nobel winner from the oil rich arab countries?”
    – I’m waiting for Chaim Pesach to explain that.

    • Because the Nobel committee looks at western institutes, not elsewhere.
      And you in your racism fail to see that

      • Troll “chaim pesach” fails to see Jews are still 40 times less numerous in general population than in Nobel population. I’d ask him to drop ignorance but thst would be silly.

      • Well they look in Israel which is not so far from the arab countries. Pity you are trying to find so many exuses and avoid the truth.

      • Actually, genius, it looks at inventions, discoveries and innovation from wherever.
        It doesn’t look at buildings or institutions.

        Einstein made his greatest discoveries with a pen and paper sitting in a modest patent office.

  16. About that ethnic cleansing in East Jerusalem that Lord Ahmed was talking about:

    http://edgar1981.blogspot.co.uk/2013/11/apartheid-israel.html

  17. Unusual to find such a large group of mental patients all in one room. Do their doctors know where they are?

  18. I don’t think that on civilized blogs such as this one you can label anyone as a ‘racist’. But if you want to get into it, you probably think that Judaism is a racist religion, because of bans on inter-marriage and many other laws.

    • Not racist, as such, but like all religions it is supremacist. And a lot if its more devout adherents do tend to be racists. You, for instance.

      • What a feeble, pathetic reply.
        Since when has religious observance anything to do with a persons ability to think creatively?
        I think you’ll find that the vast majority of Jewish Nobel laureates did not adhere to any kind of religious framework.

  19. I wonder if these arrogant British know-alls feel qualified to condemn the Muslims for not keeping all the laws in their Koran. Do they condemn the Christians for not keeping all their laws – including those self-same 10 commandments?

    Or is it only Jews with whom they have a problem? (No need to answer. This is a purely rhetorical question).

  20. Bs Jenny Tonge

    From Jenny Tonge.
    Whoops, sorry fans. I thought I said ‘ half the NEW Testament’.Jesus of Nazareth was the greatest Jew of all time and would surely have won the Nobel Peace prize, if he was alive today. You should all read it. He builds on the 10 commandments
    The Holocaust was the most terrible state crime ever committed against fellow human beings and far far worse than an injustice.

  21. Chaim Pesach, if you have to resort to personal insults, it shows the weakness of your so-called argument.
    I won’t reply in kind.

  22. Pingback: The CST » Blog Archive » A meeting that disgraces Parliament

  23. Pingback: EXCLUSIVE: David Ward MP says, “Israel… should never have been created” | My WordPress Website

  24. Chaim Christmas, where did I speak of “religious supremacism”? All I did was to state a numerical fact.
    I did recommend that you read Rabbi Yehudah HaLevi’s Kuzar, but I doubt if you even know what I am referring to.

    • As if to prove my point, Avraham, you point to a book, al-kitab al-khazari (for it was written in Arabic), that precisely sets out the thinking of the supremacy of the Jewish religion. And that’s what you adhere to.

      • You obviously didn’t read (or understand) the book. Supremacy doesn’t come into it at all. Judaism does not encourage converts and has never preached supremacy.

      • Obviously the one with comprehension problems here is you, not I. Conversion has nothing to do with it. And if it doesn’t think it’s above other religions, what’s the point of it? It’s like all religions. Mumbo-jumbo and myth designed to keep its adherents in their place.

      • Since 1948 we don’t have to argue with goyim.

  25. From Ch. Cristmas:
    “I bet you must be really pissed that the Jewish Chronicle has a new Chairman and Board which supports the New Israel Fund and Yachad.”

    – not at all. The JC’s fantastic decline in circulation (from 40+K to 20K in 10 years) serves as a verification, if not a proof, of Divine Retribution (as well as an increasingly pro-Israel Anglo-Jewry public).

    • Increasingly pro-Israel? Don’t make me laugh. Increasingly couldn’t give a damn about your country, more like.
      The decline of the JC has more to do with other, cheaper, sources of information than any ideological nonsense.

  26. “Increasingly couldn’t give a damn about your country…” – that alone identifies you as a goy. Let’s see you show the courage of your convictions: come out to Gaza and face us there ..

  27. Ex Muslim confronts Jenny Tonge on her lies about Israel.

  28. Chaim Christmas, since 1948 we don’t have to argue with goyim like you. Call me racist, fascist, obtuse – whatever you want. The fact remains, I’m here in Israel and you can scream til doomsday. You have no influence whatsoever. On anything.

    • One day, the Americans will pull the diplomatic and political rug from under your feet and your whole foundationless house of cards will collapse. Bimheyra beyaneinu, amen

      • It’s wonderful having you here because you expose the facile, bigotry of your side perfectly….I love swatting you like a mosquito and you can do nothing about it.
        You see, you’ve not factored in the essential point about American support….it comes from the people….3 out of 4 of them, including the powerful Christian Zionists. The reason? They identify with the Jews, not with totalitarian, backward looking fascists.
        So carry on your wishful thinking, but prepare for disappointment.
        No American government would dare to abandon Israel.

      • Israel didn;t have any American support until after the 67 war. Seems we were doing quiet well.

    • In the end, the evangelical doomsday mongers will lose interest once they realise they cannot convert you.

      America will do what’s best for America, and that doesn’t include continuing support for a European outpost in the middle east.

      • You’re the embodiment of man’s infinite capacity for wishful thinking.

        “America will do what’s best for America, and that doesn’t include continuing support for a European outpost in the middle east.”

        Sorry, but the Yanks are more intelligent than you give them credit for.
        As Richard Meinertzhagen wrote in his famous diaries nearly a century ago, the West’s real interests lie with the Jews in a contented Palestine (meaning the future sovereign state of the Jews), for “the Arabs will never come to anything.”
        How prescient!
        Which Arab state today can the West rely on?

      • “chaim pesach” ignores half of Israel Jews are coming from Arab countries. Big ignoramus!

      • They do travel a lot, Mr Yappy, and being prevented from doing so or making it difficult will make israelis think about their government’s policies.
        The economic price will be negligible for the EU but devastating for Israel.

      • Poor “chaim pesach”, the haunted man, now very prudent when he advocates the economic boycott if Israel. Keep amonymous, that’s better for your job (or lack thereof)!
        In fact this measure would have little impact on Israel since visitors are coming mostly from outside EU and anyway are mostly Jews. Prices in Israel being what they are visa costs would be totally negligible. But not for Israelis. So only EU would pay for this stupidity. I recognize the BDS cult supporter you have remained despite your strategic and useless recant.
        Try to bark at another tree.

      • The only one barking – yapping and barking mad – is the paranoid pekinese jose

      • Poor “chaim pesach.” Still looking for a real job?

      • European outpost? LOl

    • Don’t need to scream. All that is needed is to suggest to EU governments that Israeli tourists require a visa to visit. And vice-versa. That’ll screw the Israeli tourism industry and create some grassroots action against policies leading to isolation.

      • Too bad it will never happen! Israelis travel a lot and that would be conomically stupid as well as illogical.

  29. If I wasn’t sure you’re a goy, I’d put you down as a self-hating Jew, of the charedi type. Either way – I’m here in Israel, and you can’t do anything about it.
    As for your “prophecy”, we Jews adhere to a Talmudic saying that since the destruction of the 2nd Temple, prohecy was gice

    As for your “prohecy’, we

    • Self hating is the term used by the nazis to describe those germans who disagreed with them.
      I could also quote Larry David: I might hate myself, but being Jewish hasn’t anything to do with it.
      I bet you’ve got an EU passport so you can high-tail it out of israel when the time comes.

      • “chaim pesach” forgot that comparing Jews to Nazis is also antisemitism.
        “chaim pesach” isn’t “self-hating”, he hates Jews like any antisemite does, including Falk, Pappe, Atzmon.

      • Why would an Israeli want to high-tail it to Eurabia or Londonistan?

    • I also note fron the secular israeli press with a certain amount of glee that motivation to join combat units in the Israeli Occupation Forces is down by 9% and general recruitment figures are dropping too. Emigration is up to, especially by young educated Israelis.

      • “chaim pesach” means by “secular” the ludicrous rags of “haaretz” and some confidential glorified blogs.
        Even if true, that wouls seem rather a sad news and nothing to be happy about, especially since it does no good to anyone else.
        “chaim pesach” has a destructive mentality.

      • Something bad is going to happen in Eurabia.

        The growing Islamist element which has already bombed London transport on 7/7/05, hacks British soldiers to death in Britain, “asian” rape gangs, announced Sharia Law enclaves, no-go areas for non-Muslims and gays.

        There will be a point where there will be a pushback. It would be terrible if Euro fascism were to replace Euro dhimmitude. There has to be a sane middle ground.

      • YOu should also note this

        Central Bureau of Statistics figures show that the number of Israelis who left the country in 2011 had not returned by the end of 2012 stands at 16,000 – one the lowest figures over the past three decades and among the lowest rates in the developed world.

  30. … As for your “prophecy”, we Jews adhere to a Talmudic saying that since the destruction of the 2nd Temple prophecy was limited to babes and idiots.

  31. Well, in your case the germans got it right.
    And if Larry David is your authority on Judaism, that says it all.

    I’ve been thru the 6 Day War, 2 Lebanon wars and the Yom Kippur war here in Israel, for all but the first in the IDF, whuile you were sitting in exile cheering for the Arabs.

  32. I’ve said where I live – where do you live?

  33. Didn’t agree with the nazis – except for the one quote (of yours – you apparently are well-versed in nazi ideology) that applies to you.

  34. … there’s only one Chaim Pesach listed in Jerusalem, and it is not in Romema – far from it, listed in a slum area. Obviously an identity thief.

  35. What exactly is this discussion about? Could somebody please explain?

  36. hey marx, you always were the missing screw …
    I had mentioned that 21% of all Nobel Prize winners were Jewish in the period 1901-1990.
    This Chaim Pesach (so he calls himself) claimed that was a racist comment.

    He sounds charedi to me, from the ultra-anti-Israel section.

  37. Just noticed that chaim pesach posted this (shabbat) morning – meaning he isn’t a charedi, so he’s definately a goy.

  38. I wonder whether a statement can be at one time both racist and wholly accurate.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Jewish_Nobel_laureates

    Does this mean that reality itself is racist or is the racism in relating accurate facts.

    Wikipedia says that “…Nobel Prizes have been awarded to over 850 individuals, of whom at least 20% were Jews, although Jews comprise less than 0.2% of the world’s population.”

    Is Wikipedia also guilty of racism?

    Regarding “Chaim Pesach”, I doubt he is a haredi. He seems to have too much access to the internet and not enough knowledge. I also doubt that he’s a gentile. He seems to know just enough Hebrew to make that unlikely.

    These characters are usually virtual reincarnations of various morons who have made fools of themselves many times in the past and under many different names. They are forever hopeful that this time they might impress someone and make some friends.

    Yup, a little piteous, though there are many other unfortunates far more worthy of our sympathy. Welcome back “Chaim”!

  39. Ms. Tonge might want a second look at the Jewish Bible where she will find that Jews have more than ten laws, in fact six hundred and thirteen laws. These form the definition of Judaism, the obligations of Jewish people. Among these Ms. Tong will discover that Jews are obliged to dwell in the Land of Israel, to cultivate it and give a proportion of its produce to the poor, and to worship regularly in Jerusalem. Many of Judaisms laws relate specifically to the Land of Israel. So, taking a position that opposes Jewish sovereignty in the Land of Israel and Jerusalem is in fact anti-Jewish. Of course one does not have to know all of this to be aware of the woman’s arrogant anti-Semitic stand, but form many Jews who may not be aware of the obligations of Jewish law, this is further clarification.

  40. Is David Ward, MP, going to apologize for Britain’s recognition of the Jordanian occupation of the entire west bank of the Jordan river and all of the Old City of Jerusalem, calling it “Jordan” and making it part of Britain’s Sterling Currency Area until 1967? Does Mr. Ward think an apology is due to the Palestinians, both Jewish and Arab, for ratifying the taking of land by armed force in a war described by the British General Glubb in command as an “all out war of destruction”?

  41. Very well explained, Rafi!

    I would just add that the Chafetz Chaim wrote a book containing mitzvot that apply outside the Land of Israel, and counted only 192 (out of 613) such mitzvot.

  42. ” impure Zionist idolatry” – well, we know who YOU are!

    Your rabbi – the satmer from santa maria, escaped the nazis on the kastner train, abandoning all his disciples to be murdered by the nazis.

    I know for a fact that what you quoted in the Chafetz Chaim’s name is a lie: my grandfather studied under him in Radin, got his smicha there, and when his schul in London (when a lot of Anglo-Jewry objected to the Balfour Declaration) was built it was
    called “The Great Zionist Synagogue”.

    You satmers are sick, sick Jews, like vampires living on the blood (and money!) of others..

    • Omer Ani Maasai Lamelech, paragraph 16

      Check it before you slander another Jew, you am-haaretz! Your grandfather may have been a talmid of the Chofetz Chaim, but his grandson is an ignoramus. We call that Chometz ben Yayin, which means vinegar that was once wine.

    • Dossfight!!!!! I’d pay to watch this.
      If it weren’t for your joint hatred of secular Jews, various followers of rival rabbis would be kicking seven shades of shit out of each other. Ergo ego odi should be your motto.

  43. Yap, Yap, Yap

  44. Meir S., I’ve been looking at the Neturei Charta USA website and seen the disgusting words they have attributed to the Chafetz Chaim ztz”l.

    Obviously a forgery written by an am ha’aaretz (total Judaic ignoramus) because the man who wrote Shmirat HaLashon (you’ve probably never heard of it) could never possibly have written the words your charta friends attributed to him. Even had he been of the opionions attributed to him by the charta forger(s), he would never have expressed that opinion in the language quoted by the charta forgers.

    Sick people with an exile-oriented, twisted “Judaism”.

  45. Have you no shame? What do you mean – ‘Even had he been of the opionions (sic) attributed to him by….’? Have you read it or not?…..Thought not.

    No, I’m not Satma or Neturei Karta. I just believe in the authentic Torah that has kept Om Yisroel alive all these years before your pig eating Zionist leaders led so many astray.

    You are probably lost, because you have forgotten what it means to be a Jew. Instead you have chosen nationalism and to be a Zionist. Maybe your children or grandchildren will return. If hashem wishes it.

    • you have forgotten what it means to be a Jew?
      And we have to take you as an example of the real Jew ? LOL i think we better not . we have had enough dead jews who were killed for being jew.. We like is so much when they can;t do that any more to us. You think those Haredi leaders who encouraged their followers not to leave for Palestine in the 1930s were right? YOu think it was better for all those jews to get kill as long as thet didn;t risk their souls in coming to where zionist were building a their national home.? Seems you belive the same.

      • I don’t understand what you are trying to say alexa. Perhaps you have a friend that could help you to write more clearly.

      • To understand what ? That Hardi leaders prefer their followers to die by the German rather than risk their souls in coming to Israel. Is that better for you to understand or is it still too difficult.

  46. Not satmer? So why did you send a link from a neturei charta site?

    You are obviously a 7th-generation ben-nidah. There is no cure for this.

    • I am really enjoying this full and frank exchange of views. When are you two ladies going to start waving handbags at each other and gouging each other’s eyes out.

  47. Unlike the scholarly Avraham Reiss, I have no insider information as to Meir’s matriarchs’ state of ritual purity, so I shall restrict my comments to the Rabbi Yisrael Meir Kagan, AKA the Chofetz Chaim.

    I have recently finished reading a republication of a small biography that his son wrote and while being tremendously impressed by his character, knowledge and involvement in all areas of life, I would have to concur with Meir that he could in no way be described as a Zionist or one of its forerunners. He actively opposed those Jews wishing to leave Eastern Europe and was a leader of Agudat Yisrael, an organization that campaigned against the creation of the State of Israel.

    Thus, if his purpose was to support a thesis of the centrality of Zionism within Jewish thought, Reiss would have done better to have chosen figures such as Rabbi Yehudah Alkalai of Sarajevo, Rabbi Zvi Hirsch Kalischer of Posen, etc.

    Meir, on the other hand does no service to a Jewish rabbinic giant by cherry-picking his quotes (assuming they are true) and portraying him as some kind of fanatic. It is important to remember that the Chofetz Chaim lived at a time when most leading rabbis opposed political Zionism, among other reasons because they thought it was impractical. Several of them changed their minds during and after the Holocaust and I am confident that had Rabbi Yisrael Meir Kagan, he would have been among them. As a child I was privileged to be acquainted with one of his students Dayan Michael Fisher who was a great scholar (certainly by UK standards) and a faithful Zionist.

    May I suggest that we let the matter rest there and move on to the next posting?

  48. meir s., you understood Alexa very well, as did I. It’s just inconvenient for you to live with the fact that YOUR anti-Zionist rabbis persuaded Jews to stay in Europe, not to make Aliyah, and are therefore responsible for their deaths in the Holocaust.

  49. As usual, Marx has it wrong, but at least he’s a religious Zionist living in Eretz Yisrael, having made Aliyah of his own free will. (I have no evidence that proves otherwise).

    http://www.israel613.com/books/KKE_ERETZ157.pdf
    “Around the year 5660 (approximately fifty years before the establishment of the State of Israel,) a pamphlet defaming Zionism was published in Kovna. It was called, ‘Light to the Just’ At the end of the pamphlet, a few letters from Gedolei Yisrael were included: from Rabbi Chaim of Brisk, Rabbi David Friedman of Karlin, (On R David oí Karlin’s opposition, see Shivat Zion, Part 1, 18.) and others.

    Afterward were some letters from some Admores, such as Rabbi Shalom Ber of Lubavitch, who was then in his youth. At a time when all of Eastern Europe, and especially Lita, were filled with a bounty of Gaonim and Talmidei Chachamin, they only managed to obtain the signatures of eight Torah scholars who had the stature of Rabbi Chaim of Brisk. To strengthen their contention, the compilers of the pamphlet had to go out of their way to obtain a letter from Rabbi Natan Adler from London. The editors of the pamphlet claimed that the community of Israel was going up in smoke because of Zionism. If so, why didn’t they gather the signatures of the hundreds and thousands of great Torah personalities and Tzaddikim who lived at the time?! What happened that the great sea of Gedolim and rabbis didn’t respond? If Clal Yisrael was burning in flames, how are we to comprehend their failure to sign?”

    “The reason is that only handfuls took sides on the two extremes of the issue. On the positive side were Gaonim like Rabbi Meir Simcha of Dvinsk, the Chofetz Chaim, Rabbi Shmuel Mohliver, and Rabbi Yitzhak Rinnes; and on the other side were Gaonim like Rabbi Chaim of Brisk, and Rabbi David of Karlin. But the majority of Gedolei Yisrael were in a quandary. They didn’t know in which direction to lean.

    They neither supported Zionism, nor rejected it. They were afraid to express a definite opinion, and thus became a silent majority. “

  50. Chaim Christmas, you think and sound like a goy, so you wouldn’t understand the Jewish concepts of hasgacha and hester panim.

    From your mention of bitches, you remind me of the two chasidim who visited Paris, and then came back to report to the Rebbe.
    One said “a great place. Full of shuls”, and the second said “a disgusting places . Full of houses of bad repute”.

    The Rebbe said “each of you found what he was looking for”.
    That’s chaim Christmas.

  51. Here’s eye-witness evidence for the youngest of the Marx brothers, and the others who spoke lashon hara against the Chafetz Chaim.

    http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Blogs/Message.aspx/4349#.UoTXrnA0WuI

    ‘Ishmael will be a Wild Beast of a Man’

    That’s what the famous Rabbi, the Chofetz Chaim, said when a Torah scholar asked him if he should make aliyah, even though there was danger in the Land of Israel.

    Now the Chofetz Chaim, Rabbi Yisrael Meir HaKohen from Radin, was known for never having said an unfair or untruthful word about anyone, yet he insisted that if an Arab be a professor, he will be a subhuman professor. Or if he be a lawyer, he will be a subhuman lawyer.

    Accordingly, if he be a President or Prime Minister, whether of the Palestinian Authority, Egypt, Syria, America, or Iran, he will be a subhuman Prime Minister.

    May this story about the Chofetz Chaim, whose yahrtzeit is this Friday, be a memorial for the holy victims of yesterday’s terrorist attack in Israel, may the Almighty revenge their murder with a swift and devasting vengeance.

    The story is recorded by Rabbi Dichovsky, in his book,” Neot Desha,” on the subject of concluding a tractate of Talmud. In the introduction, he recounts his visit to the Chofetz Chaim in order to ask him about moving to Israel at a time of clear and present danger.

    We quote:

    “I saw it proper to record a statement made to me by the most pious of all of the Kohanim, the Rabbi of all Israel, the glory of the generation, the holy of all Israel, may he be blessed in memory, in the matter of Aliyah. I asked him about this question, and the following are the details of our encounter:

    “It was the beginning of the year, 1933. There was a group of Torah scholars who had organized themselves to go together to Israel to learn Torah. I too was amongst them, but I had many doubts, because I knew that many of the great gedolim (Torah scholars) were opposed. The heads of my Yeshiva were especially opposed to the idea that Yeshiva students would go to Eretz Yisrael, even for the sake of studying Torah. They said that the proper conditions had not as yet been established in order to facilitate Torah study with the proper diligence in the Holy Land, to the extent that we are able to study Torah in the Yeshivot in the Diaspora. Therefore, I said in my heart, that I must not ask my rabbis in this matter, for obviously the answer will be no.

    “Like Rabbi Zera, who ran away from his teacher, Rav Yehuda, when he wanted to make Aliyah to Israel (Tractate Ketubot, 110B,) I decided to go and ask the counsel of the righteous man of our generation, our revered Rabbi, and to receive his blessing before I departed. Therefore, just before the Day of Atonement, I journeyed to the yeshiva of the Chofetz Chaim in the town of Radin, where I stayed in the shadow of this great, righteous individual. This was, as is known, the last Yom Kippur of this special Tzaddik, for at the end of the year, in the month of Elul, he was taken to the Yeshiva Above, may his merit be a shield to us and all Israel.

    “In spite of his great physical weakness, a Heavenly Providence was with me, and I merited to see him the day after Yom Kippur. I told him my situation, and that I had a good chance of making Aliyah to Israel as a Torah student, only I had lingering doubts if I would be able to learn Torah with the same diligence with which I was learning now. Immediately, he answered, in his famous sweetness of speech, that there was no room at all for my worry. Why in the world would I not be able to learn Torah there with absolute diligence – just the opposite would seem to be true, for the Land of Israel, without question, was more conducive for steadfast immersion in Torah. He recited the verse, ‘The gold of the Land is good,’ (Bereshit, 2:12) on which the Midrash says, ‘This gold is the learning of Torah in Israel, for there is no Torah like the Torah of Eretz Yisrael; and there is no wisdom like the wisdom of Eretz Yisrael.’ (Bereshit Rabba, 16:7)

    “Before I could express the rest of the doubts that I harbored – especially the fear of the danger in Israel because of the children of Ishmael who were marauding violently against the Jews, for only a few years had passed since the end of the Hebron Massacre in the year 1929, which made clear to everyone the wild, bestial nature of the Ishmaelites, who with savagery and unbounded cruelty massacred Yeshiva students and showed no mercy even to the women and children – before I was able to confess all of my apprehensions, the Rabbi answered the question himself.

    “In the following words of Torah, he said: ‘The holy Torah tells us regarding Ishmael that he is a ‘Pere Adam,’ a wild beast of a man. It is known that our Torah is eternal, and if it says about Ishmael that he is a wild beast of a man, then Ishmael will remain forever a wild beast of a man. Even if all of the cultured nations of the world will gather together and try to educate Ishmael and transform him into a cultured individual, so that he will no longer be a wild beast of a man, obviously this will be impossible in every fashion or form. They will not be able to do this through any means whatsoever, because he is not capable of being a cultured individual, for behold, the Torah testified regarding him that he is a wild beast of a man. This means that forever, for all eternity, Ishmael is by definition a wild beast of a man. Even if Ishmael will be involved in intellectual endeavor, like being a lawyer, or some similar profession, then he will be a beastly lawyer. If he will study diligently to be a professor, then he will be a beastly professor. This means that the bestiality of Ishmael will never cease.’

    “Then the Chofetz Chaim let out a long, painful sigh and said, ‘Who knows what this wild beast of a man is capable of perpetrating against the Jewish people in the end of days?’

    “Concluding his words to me, he said, ‘Nevertheless, fear not – there is no reason for this to prevent you from making Aliyah to the Land of Israel.’

    “Then he blessed me, saying, ‘Go in peace, and the L-rd will bless your path.’

    “So I left him, and journeyed in peace to the Holy Land.”

    This, in my humble opinion, must be our response to the savage murders, and a proper memorial to the victims – to hunt down and kill the subhuman beasts and those who sent them; to further building in all the Land of Israel; and to increase aliyah to the Land, to prove to the subhumans and to all world that our bond to the Land of Israel will never be broken.

  52. C’mon Avraham. Nobody on this excellent blog loves you more than I, but did you really expect anyone to wade their way through two long boring posts like those? I gave up after the second paragraph. Maybe you could write a Readers’ Digest version.

    Let’s sum it up like this. You think that the Chafetz Chaim was a Zionist because he encouraged some followers to move to Israel. By that definition I guess Yassir Arafat qualifies too.

    You also think that Meir’s mum, grandmum, etc didn’t frequent Jewish ritual baths. When you seemed unable to prove or disprove Meir’s quote you desperately tried to change the subject by blaming him and his rabbis for the Holocaust. Is that about right?

    Your position is clear and was explained in your usual eloquently fashion. Now may I suggest that it is time to move on?

  53. Marx, I believe you when you wrote ” I gave up after the second paragraph”, but the post was intended for those blessed with 3-digit IQ’s, some of whom I believe are even known to inhabit Maaleh Adumim.

    Acceptance or rejection of your suggestion is dependent on reactions of other participants here.

  54. I heartily agree that it is time to move on. I also agree with Daniel’s sensible compact summary of Avraham’s position.

    I don’t think this topic is in any way connected to the Shoah and I will not cheapen the memory of those sacred martyrs by using them or their tragedy as a cheap debating point.

  55. No, of course you won’t – accepting responsibility does not appear to be your strongest point.

    • Just you can’t accept responsibility for being a hate-filled tart who blames Jews for their death at the hands of the Nazis.

  56. Avraham, calm down, We’re moving on.

  57. Marx, I don’t remember the announcement of your appointment as the local calm-downer …

  58. Calmer down surely.

    By the way, you’re lucky I never let on about the nonsense you wrote about those 613-192 commandments that you implied that we are able to keep in Israel.
    The truth is that we can only keep about 207 without a temple or a majority of Jews living here.

    http://www.hageula.com/study/toGeula/7667.html

    That’s much better than 192 you cite, but we still badly need the Messiah.

    In that light I urge you to carefully reread everything you’ve written today and ask yourself whether those postings have gone some small way to spreading love, understanding and creating a world worthy of salvation. If your answer is “yes”, then you may go to sleep a joyful and contented man, Avraham Reiss. If it isn’t, you still have tomorrow.

    Remember, as long as the candle burns we can repair.

    Now for Heavens’ sake let’s move on!

  59. With that I can agree. Let’s move on Avraham.

  60. “By the way, you’re lucky I never let on about the nonsense you wrote about those 613-192 commandments that you implied that we are able to keep in Israel.”

    Marx, you seem to understand less in each email.

    I don’t know specifically what you are referring to, but I probably mentioned in the past that the Chafetz Chaim wrote a book listing the 192 mitzvot out of the 613 that were applicable outside of Israel in his time. I never calculated what mitzvot can be observed in Israel – Sefer HaChinuch did the work a long time ago.

    Your opinion of the Chafetz Chaim is shared here by meir s and father christmas, so you are not alone.

  61. Which part of moving on didn’t you understand?

  62. Michael Goldman

    Avraham I think it really is about time you moved on

  63. goldman, aren’t you the guy who …

  64. I don’t take orders – or suggestions – from charedim or Marxists about when to move on.

    Following is the bitter truth in the Chafetz Chaim’s own words.

    On shabat (this morning) after shul I spoke to Professor Eliav Shochetman concerning the Chafetz Chaim’s attitude to Zionism.

    He referred me to an article he had published, containing a letter from the Chafetz Chaim who was disgusted with the Charedi attitude and behavior towards HaRav Kook and Zionism..

    http://www.yeshiva.org.il/midrash/pdf/pdf189/meged156.pdf

    באיגרתו “אל כבוד הרבנים הגאונים המפורסמים וכו’ במשרד הרבנים בירושלים שליט”א”, משנת תרפ”ד, הוא הביע שמחתו “לקראת הבשורה הטובה שנתבשרתי זה לא מכבר כי בע”ה נתקיים השלום בין יראי אלקים בארצה”ק”, אבל הוסיף : “מה נכפלה דאגתי וצערי בראותי כי אחרי כל אלה השטן עדיין מרקד עוד ביתר תוקף ושאת בראותי את עתונכם… אשר מלא חירופים וגידופים בנאצות גדולות לאנשים גדולים בתורה ויראה והלצות בגימטריאות אשר תגעל נפש כל שומע ולולא שראיתיו בעיני לא האמנתי מעולם על זאת שימצאו דברים כאלו בעתון אשר קול החרדים מדבר מתוכו… אנא, חוסו עליכם ועלינו כלל ישראל כולנו, על מה חרבה עירנו ושמם בית מקדשנו על שנאת חנם שהיתה בנו ואם זאת היתה הסיבה שהחריבה את בתינו בודאי היא המעכבת לביאת משיח צדקנו, וברור לי שאם ח”ו תלהט אש המחלוקת יותר ויותר תוכל לעכב ביאת משיח צדקנו ולמה לכם להיות ממעכבי הגאולה ח”ו … ” )מכתבים ומאמרים ממרן רבינו בעל החפץ חיים זצ”ל, ח”ב, ירושלים תש”ן, סי’ לד(.

  65. I honestly don’t believe that you’re as fatuous as you would have us believe. In order to prove that the Hafetz Haim supported Zionism you bring tell me that he respected Rav Kook.

    How many Zionist rabbis and Torah scholars attended Rabbi Ovadia Yosef’s funeral, eulogized him and learn from his books? By that idiotic logic does that make them all into Shas supporters? Either you really have no understanding for the way the Torah world behaves or you’re just pretending to be stupid.

    It’s really quite simple. The Hafetz Haim was not a Zionist. He was an enormous Torah genius with unbounding love for the Jewish People, including of course Rav Kook, but that did not mean for a moment that he shared his views. When Rav Kook was celebrating the granting of the Balfour Declaration, the Hafetz Haim cried because the Jewish People were putting their trust in the declarations of gentiles rather than in their G-d who would save them when he so wished with miracles (Meir Eynay Israel p476).

    When asked whether a Jew could give to a charity that funded both traditional Yeshivot and secular schools in Israel, he said that it was forbidden. Incidentally, his son recounts that tried to persuade his father not to interfere in anti-Zionist politics, but he refused (Kitzur Toldot Hahafetz Haim p73)

    He was not a radical opponent of Zionism as were many of his contemporaries, but he saw himself as a Haredi and he saw the Zionist movement as part of the Enlightenment, which his generation had opposed.

    Unlike most of his contemporaries he did see a tragedy that would befall the Jewish People, but when Jabotinski and other Zionist spoke of evacuation his solution was for the Jewish People to strengthen themselves in Torah and Mitzvot. You can still occasionally see signs in Haredi neighborhoods that quote him as saying that a calamity would happen to the Jews of Europe because they spoke in synagogue.

    Of course, if you want to define a Zionist as someone who prays for our return to Zion daily or loves Israel or even someone who wants to live there, then he was all of those, but so are Satma and Neturei Karte and probably every orthodox Jew in the world.

  66. Marx, you really are out of your league in these matters.
    Leave this subject for the big boys.

    • Michael Goldman

      You really should have taken my (and others) advice and moved on.
      Maybe Daniel would have left you alone and not comletely demolished your argument.

      • With religious Jews, Israel does not need enemies. I wonder why Arabs don’t leave Israel alone, as religious Jews would lead it to destruction quicker, just as they supposedly did in antiquity. That must be mitzva 614: “Have a different opinion than thy neighbour and shove it up his …”.
        All of them are a catastrophe for Israel, especially those who won’t work.

  67. Yup, when facts and analysis run out, when you’re all out of logical argument, that’s what’s left.

  68. The mitzva would be the disappearing of all these off-topicunwanted religious bickering about how many angels can dance on a pin’s head. Must be #614 because it is never practiced by those who should then disappear and complains about “Ruth’s” stupid bickering.

  69. Avraham, How wonderful that you have made an extra visit to shul on shabas that wasn’t Rosh Hashana or Yom Kippur even if it was only to talk with your apikorus friend.

    Why can’t you leave our leaders alone? Do you really think that because a am haaretz talks to a apikorus during shul that makes the Chofetz Chaim (ZZVL) into a Zionist?

    Why can’t you be happy with your own leaders that you have to thieve ours? You’ve got Herzl who wanted to baptize all Jews before deciding it was impractical and choosing Zionism. You’ve got Ben Gurion who wanted to be a Buddhist and today you’ve got Benet and his ally Lapid who are doing everything that they can to destroy the world of Torah. Isn’t that enough? What do you need the Chofetz Chaim (ZZVL) for?

    Daniel, you are far worse than Avraham. He is just an ignoramus, but you know and you choose to twist and distort the facts.

  70. I really do love these spats between the Orthodox. It just shows why people are turned off by Orthodoxy and Jewish ultra-“nationalism” – and especially the lethal combination of both

    • I love those sunni/shiite spats. It just shows why people are turned off by Orthodoxy and Islamist/Sunni/Shiite/Wahabbi/Salifi ultra-”nationalism” – and especially the lethal combination of both

      • As imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, thanks for imitating me, yappy 2

      • “chihuahua pseach” is easily flattered. Easiest form of stupidity.

      • Chaim Nakba,

        Happy Eternal Nakba!

      • And may your life be a continuous Spanish Inquisition, especially the Auto de Fe part.

      • “chihuahua pesach” is very angry and in full troll mode.

      • Chaim Nakba,

        Seems you haven’t kept up with the news. The Israelis are not the unarmed Jews of Khybar, the Spanish Inquisition or WW2.

        Happy Eternal Nakba!

      • Why did you stop taking the tablets, “Edward”? May all your days be one long auto de fe.

      • Chaim Nakba,

        May your 72 Virgin look like 72 jenny tonges.

        Happy Eternal Nakba!

      • Ed-retard, may every thing you have wished and will wish me and I you happen soon, bimheiroh beyameinu, omein. She’tichanek ve’tisaref, omein, ve’omein,

      • “chihuahua pesach” now in full yapping troll insulting mode.

      • Oh, look there’s another sock puppet who likes imitating my wording. What flattery from Mr Yappy. Straight back at you too.

      • “chihuahua pesach” likes to be flattered even if he has to invent the intent. I wonder why. He does that alone quite well.
        Learned to be prudent with his real name, though. So he won’t be able to flatter himself outside the circle of those who ridicule him here.

      • Straight back at you both, you are both two very sick and thick individuals. Don’t stop taking the tablets, despite the fact that they appear not to be working.
        I doubt either of you will find anyone to say kaddish for you – soon, please G-d.

      • “chihuahua pesach” yapped his hateful tirade. You so much resemble someone who used to troll under another pseudo! Try to get a real job, some day… Such as garbage collector for example.

    • Chaim Nakba,

      Hear the news about your boys in Beirut? One of those lovely spats between Orthodox Islamists.

      http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/20/world/middleeast/blast-hits-shiite-area-of-beirut.html?hp&_r=0

      Your 72 jenny tonges sure are getting a real workout.

      Happy Eternal Nakba!

      • Seems that you, too, are as thick as two planks when it comes to comprehension – just like Mr Jose Yappy. I wonder why. When I wrote

        Ed-retard, may every thing you have wished and will wish me and I you happen soon, bimheiroh beyameinu, omein. She’tichanek ve’tisaref, omein, ve’omein,

        I implied, nay said quite clearly, that what ever you wished or will wish me, I hope will happen to you soon.

        If you can find someone to say it for you, let’s hope that someone will recite yisgadal, yiskadesh… for you soon.

      • It seems that “chihuahua pesach” had to say kadish for a job he had… Never learn anything, do we?

      • Chaim Nakba,

        May you suffer 72 “workplace accidents”, and the fleas from 72 jenny tonges infest your beard.

        INSHALLAH!

    • Chaim Nakba,

      A song for you and your friends….

      “Oh what a beautiful Nakba
      Oh what a beautiful day,
      I’ve got a beautiful feeling,
      Nakba is coming your way…”

  71. Well, despite all the rubbish on here, the fact IS that Israel is the ONLY country in the middle east which a civilised person would want to visit or reside in. As for the Muslim ant-heaps,?? well, they are all in a permanent vegetative state known colloquially as ISLAM………..

  72. It takes a fair amount of chutzpah for a lowly school-teacher from a far-flung outpost in the Israeli Empire, to criticize the opinion of a professor of some 50 years academic standing. Particularly that of a professor who has written and published an article on the subject under discussion, which implies that a fair amount of knowledge gained from research into the subject at hand was employed in the writing of the article.

    When I quoted from the letter written by the Chafetz Chaim regarding the chareidim, it was from a source provided by said professor who replied to my question regarding the Chaftez Chaim’s attitude to Zionism. In other words, the professor was of the opinion that one could infer the attitude of the Chafetz Chaim towards Zionism from that letter.

    Readers will note in general the great verboseness of Marx’s posts here, there and everywhere. His flowery language is akin to the brightly-colored plumage of a bird attempting to redirect attention away from the weakness of his warble.

    • Yup, that’s the method Avraham – my ignoramus of a friend. When you realize you’re wrong, try and make it personal. After all, you may know little about the subject under discussion, but when it comes to cheap jibes and affronts, you’re as good as most men and better than some.

      I am a teacher and though I head the English departments in a yeshiva high school and the Lander School of Education in Jerusalem, I do in fact see myself as a teacher. I’ve had two books published, but I’m no author. I had a chess column in the Jerusalem Report many years ago, but I’m no journalist. I am employed by the German government occasionally to meet their politicians, academics and journalists, but I’m no diplomat or politician. I am a teacher.

      I can understand you not liking us, as your comments and general level of knowledge suggest that your experience in formal institutes of education may not have been overly effective. But you won’t shame me by calling me a “mere teacher” any more than you shame the city of Jerusalem – our eternal capital – by disgracefully calling it a “far-flung outpost”. Though I am not one of them, our greatest Jewish leaders have been called “teacher” from Moses to every living rabbi. I am a teacher.

      You idiotically claimed that the Chafetz Haim was a Zionist. You then searched the net and everywhere else in search of a single scrap of proof that this statement was true. On discovering that it was not you turned to someone who offered you a statement by the Chafetz Haim in which he condemned attacks against Rav Kook (who was most definitely a Zionist). I neither contested the authenticity of this document nor the pure motives of its writer. They were to protect a fellow Torah sage from extremist anti-Zionists.

      There have been many similar calls from Rabbi Shlomo Zalman Auerbach defending Yitzhak HaLevi Herzog from extreme ultra-orthodox zealots to more recently Rabbi Shlomo Aviner famously defending memory of the late Rav Ovadia Yosef from extremists within the Religious Zionist camp. These are all Torah giants who are defending others with whom they may disagree in many matters. I do not believe that your “shul pal” understood the document to imply an endorsement of Zionism. If he did, or if he can show you a single document of the thousands that the Chafetz Haim wrote in which he in any way claimed that he was a Zionist, I would be shocked. I am no expert on the subject and have not read a 100th of what the Chafetz Haim wrote, but I do not believe you will find any such statement. That is for the simple reason that the Chafetz Haim consistently opposed Zionism.

      Regarding the subject of this interesting discussion he was an indescribable genius in Jewish law and many other areas. He was by all accounts a wonderful human being, forever ready to help both Jews and non-Jews. He loved the land of Israel and the Jewish People living there and more than once planned to immigrate there. However, he never saw himself as a Zionist and opposed the movement. No personal attacks or evasive innuendos will change that basic fact.

      Returning to my role as a teacher; let me be yours just for a moment. When you realize you’re mistaken, it’s okay to admit it. When you’re deep in a hole and aren’t sure how to get out, it may be time to stop digging. Knowledge begins with the ability to acknowledge that there are some things that you don’t know (yet) and that it’s okay to be wrong sometimes.

  73. … and boy, does he warble!

  74. Edward,
    regarding those 72 virgins: what the Arabs don’t realize, is that they all get THE SAME 72 virgins … 🙂

  75. Michael Goldman

    Mr Marks made two very valid points:
    1.The Chafetz Chaim respecting Rav Kook does in no way mean that he agrees with everything he says.
    2.Zionism is not just the belief that the Jewish people should live in Israel or that we pray to rebuild the temple in Zion, but rather the belief that we should have a state in Israel now.
    Sadly all Avraham has to offer (in place of real discussion) is insults and the ridiculous claim that because a professor makes a statement a school teacher must immediately agree.

  76. Goldman, you either didn’t read what I wrote, or didn’t understand it.

    I think you were just returning a ‘favor’ to marx, after he posted some years ago (June 14, 2009 ) “… I really have nothing other than halachah against homosexuality …”.

    Nothing like supporting the family, eh?

    • I once knew this Adrian Reiss. from Brondesbury Park shul in the 60s. Always running away and wetting himself, poor fellow. Any relation?

      • Good grief Adrian, While the adolescent Reiss still wetting those knickers in Brondesbury Park, Goldman and I were best mates.

        Small world!

    • Michael Goldman

      Well what can I say.
      You caught me out Avraham.
      How I ever thought I could get past a wiley fox like yourself is beyond me.
      A man who is brilliant enough to constantly misspell Daniel’s name in order to amuse is obviously a man to be reckoned with.
      Yes you are far too clever . It was in fact Daniel’s posting about the Gay Boys that prompted me to rush to his defence rather than 50 or so years of friendship.
      Now Can we Please Move On