ICAHD’s Jeff Halper speaks to London churchgoers of Israeli “super Apartheid”.

Halper's slide of Salim Shawamreh after a house demolition.

Halper's slide of Salim Shawamreh after a house demolition.

Jesus is reborn in the form of Jeff Halper of the Israeli Committee Against House Demolitions (ICAHD). Halper sacrificed himself to leave sunny Israel and visit rainy London for a speaking tour. He appeared on Monday night in the ancient church of All-Hallows-on-the-Wall in the the City of London to talk about the plight of the Palestinians.

Halper, like Jesus was, is also Jewish, and, just like Jesus, has suffered incredible hardship for the sake of others. The blurb for the speaking tour described Halper as being “prepared to put his own comfort and safety at risk. He dismisses the physical hardships, manhandlings and brief sojourns in Israeli jails which he has endured, as insignificant compared to what Palestinians may suffer every day”.

Halper was supposed to have been joined by Salim Shawamreh (see photo above) who owns a house called Beit Arabiya, but Shawamreh was absent eventhough the event was meant as a fundraiser to help him rebuild his home which had, apparently, been demolished for the fifth time by Israel. On previous occasions Halper had been there to help rebuild it. Halper describes such rebuilding “as a political act of resistance until we prevail”.

Has there been a falling out between Halper and one of his main disciples? I expected to hear how Shawamreh had been detained by the Israeli authorities.  The blurb for the talk simply stated “Unfortunately Salim Shawamreh whose family owns Beit Arabiya was due to be at this event is no longer able to join us.” Halper had nothing more to add to that on the night.

In Shawamreh’s absence Halper couldn’t resist the urge to raise funds for himself. He told us that the moment he was thrown down a hill with Shawamreh he pledged to tell his story. His publicist then offered us the chance to purchase Halper’s book An Israeli in Palestine for £12.

Halper immediately told the 100 or so Christians (and one Jew) in the church how deceitful the Israelis were. Conveniently forgetting the many Israelis murdered or left disabled and disfigured by Palestinian suicide bombers Halper said that the “separation wall”, like most other Israeli policies, had nothing whatsoever to do with security and that discussing the wall in such terms made Israel sound like the victim.

It helped Israel claim “we are the good guys, they are the bad guys” as Israel tried to “reframe the conflict”. According to Halper, the wall is twice as high as the Berlin Wall was and five times as long.

Halper said Israel has demolished 27,000 Palestinian homes since 1967 and in only around 600 of those instances was security of possible concern for Israel. And he said that the “settlements” had nothing to do with security either.

Halper didn’t think there was a proper conflict, which needed two sides; Israel is too powerful due to its vast business dealings with Britain, its official treaty with America and its economy which is three times the size of Egypt’s, Palestine’s, Syria’s and Jordan’s combined, not forgetting Israel’s nuclear prowess.

Halper said most Palestinians live on £1.50 a day with no access to the Israeli job market and that Israel is driving middle class Palestinians out. He said that the Palestinians are so regulated they even need permission to plant gardens next to their homes and for growing certain flowers.

He said 300,000 Palestinians had left “the occupied territories” in the last 10 years while those remaining are confined to “bantustans”. Halper, sadly, spent the evening demeaning the experiences of blacks in apartheid South Africa, even describing Israel as being “super Apartheid”. See here:

Ever the hero, Halper went on to describe his brave actions during proposed house demolitions. Being an Israeli Jew, he said, meant it was more unlikely that he would be imprisoned. This allowed him to throw himself in front of bulldozers and to climb onto the roofs of those houses earmarked for demolition.

He mentioned Rachel Corrie who, he said, was “killed after being twice run over by a bulldozer”, and a pregnant Palestinian mother of ten who died after her house “was demolished while she was asleep inside”.

Did Halper have an answer to the problem of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict? Yes. He called for something like the “European Common Market” where citizens from Israel, Palestine, Jordan, Syria and Lebanon “can live and work throughout the region” and that “if Palestinian refugees want to come back from Lebanon to live in the Galilee, you can do that”. Watch here:

Such a simple solution and one which Israelis are bound to go for in their droves despite the prospect of living right next door to the likes of Hamas and Hezbollah terrorists dedicated to the slaughter of Jews! I doubt even Israel’s Arab citizens would go for it.

Meanwhile, if anyone catches sight or sound of Salim Shawamreh, please let me know as I’m concerned as to his whereabouts.

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167 responses to “ICAHD’s Jeff Halper speaks to London churchgoers of Israeli “super Apartheid”.

  1. Redoubtable do YOU have a solution to the Israeli/ Palestininian conflict ? Or do you share the view of Roberta and Hoffie that ” there is no solution we can only fight back like against the nazis ” ?

    • Sharon Klaff

      The only viable solution to this problem is creating Israel to the West and Palestine to the East of the Jordan River. Mudar Zachran born of Arab Palestinian parents is leading such a new peace initiative. See Facebook “Jordan is Palestine”. The sooner Western leaders rasp tis the sooner there will be peace in the ME and then the peoples can grow an economy greater than the US.

    • richardmillett

      Hoffie is for a two-state solution. Me too, really. It would be along the lines of the Clinton parameters where Jerusalem is divided along the lines that what is Jewish goes to Israel and what is Muslim goes to the Palestinians and the main settlement blocks would go to Israel with properly worked out and equal landswaps in favour of the Palestinians. The Palestinian refugees would be fully compensated for any lost land from wars with Israel with some refugees being allowed to return to Israel should they wish. There should also be similar compensation worked out for Jews who were thrown out of Arab lands.

      They almost had agreement between Barak and Arafat in 2000 until it all went Pete Tonge!

      • just for the record:

        as to the division of Jerusalem – here are the walks Yaacov Lozowick filmed to show what I think it was the Clinton division of the city would mean in real life.

        http://yaacovlozowick.blogspot.de/p/dont-divide-jerusalem.html

      • Sharon Klaff

        This two state solution you describe Richard also calls for a contiguous Palestinian state. If this Palestine is contiguous then by fact Israel will not be contiguous as Gaza and J/S cannot be brought together as a connected state unless it drives directly through from the West Bank to Gaza effectively slicing Israel into two “Bantustans”‘ a not very secure solution. Furthermore, Jerusalem under the Jews is truly multicultural, under Jordan it was not as Jews were barred from going there. Nothing has changed on the ground to ensure that Jerusalem will not be faught over as how do you divide a vertically structured religious site? There is no logic to this Clinton deal and that is why it failed.

        Mudar Zachran has the answer and he has the plan and he has the structure for governance as well as having 85% of the Palestinian Arab population of Jordan on his side. And to boot, none of this includes Hamas/Fatah. Watch his space. You saw protests in Jordanian Palestinian villages last Friday – more to come. The King is already divesting his wealth out of Jordan and desperately trying to find a way through, but he knows that his turn is around the corner, just as soon as Syria is done and for sure nobody wants the same solution on the east bank of the Jordan as in Egypt, Lybia etc.

        The name of the game has changed and the Olso two state process is dead. The only discussion is Israel to the West and Palestine to the East of the Jordan.

  2. Sharon Klaff

    I see Halper is described as “an Israeli born in America”. Surely to be known as a national of a state one has to be born in that state or become naturalised after a period of residence in the state. Like Bibi’s duck, if he was born in America and he lives in America then he is American. No wonder he is confused!

  3. Is that what was Jewish and what was Muslim at the time of the Clinton parameters or what will be Jewish and what will be Muslim when the ethnic cleansing of East Jerusalem is completed to the satisfaction of Israel ?

    • richardmillett

      Can you prove there’s ethnic cleansing? Can you provide relevant statistics to show any change in demographics that can prove your point?

      Irrespective of that for example The Temple Mount would be Palestinian eventhough the Jewish Temples were once there. The Western Wall would be in Israel.

  4. No I can’t provide relevant statistics to prove my point. Do you have relevant statistics to hand that prove that the demographics of Jerusalem are the same as they were in 1967 ?

    What I can do is observe the policy and extrapolate from the policy the inevitable results. Jews get building permits, Arabs don’t.Arabs get their homes demolished. Jews don’t. The establishment of illegal settlements around Jerusalem and the incorporating of them into the” municipality.” The eviction of Arabs from their homes and the taking over of them by Jewish families.The ring of settlements again incorporated into the ” municipality ” whose main purpose is to cut Arab Jerusalem off from the rest of the West Bank. No I can’t at this point in time ” prove ” the change in demographics. But then again I can’t prove that water boils at 100C at sea level.

    If it walks like a duck………..

    The western Wall will be in Israel….Why is this then ?

    Since the Israeli government says Jerusalem will never be divided are you advocating a change in government ?

    Wouldn’t it be better, wouldn’t everyone be happier, if Jerusalem was shared rather than divided ? What is this fetish of having to own it all about ?

    • Sharon Klaff

      Jerusalem was meant to be shared when Trans Jordan took it in battle from the Jews, only immediately they took charge they banned Jews from going there. International peace keeping forces have proved always to let Israel down and served the enemy so they cannot be trusted either. The only people who have made Jerusalem truly multicultural is Israel under the Jews.

      If you are going to quote facts you need to substantiate them from source material otherwise what you repeat is simply propaganda. We have all heard the narrative you describe and most of it is Pallywood. And yes it is possible to prove that water boils at 100 degrees. Surely you studied science at school!

  5. Yes I did ” Sharon ” and I also have three philosophy degrees, including an MA in the philosophy of science. There was this chicken who observed that every time the man came into the coup it got fed. So it’s proved. Man coming into the pen means I get fed. Then one christmas eve the man came into the pen and wrung it’s neck. Go away ” Sharon”, go multi sign an online petition or something.Don’t bother me with your juvenile “Pallywood ” stuff.

    Click

    • Sharon Klaff

      An angry person is an insecure person. You certainly meet that bill. I have read your innuendos before and tell you now in this public forum to stop making slanderous comments about me. Try and keep to the discussion or keep quiet. That is what dignity is all about. Try and get some.

  6. You sold me.I’ll enroll in the Jonny Hoff school of dignity.

    • Sharon Klaff

      Better you enroll on a course to teach you some history and some truth. You probably are too bigoted to have heard of the false claims of the Al Dura case now proven to be a Pallywood production – nothing infantile about the deaths and damage that little lie caused. But then it is the reason you have swallowed all this rubbish you write about, being obviously gullible and impressionable to propaganda. Your three or four degrees don’t impress me given what we know about the pro BDS/ bias that abounds in British universities.

  7. Before Richard signs off on a “Two State Solution” or Sharon declares Jordan to be Palestine, let me say that I reject them both.

    The area currently occupied by the artificially created Hashemite kingdom of Jordan was promised me as a national home almost a century ago and was then illegally given away by Britain in order to create yet another Arab dictatorship ruled by a minority tribe. This constituted about 76% of what should have been ours.

    To be clear, I have no plans to declare war on that crackpot monarchy in order to correct a historical injustice, but were Jordan to be stupid enough to have another go, as they did in 1967, if it were anything to do with me, all bets would be off.

    • Sharon Klaff

      Daniel, I quite agree with you. However, the fact is that the King is there and that there is anarchy in the air, already starting. I think Israel can manage with half its promised land it it will put a stop to the continued terror and killing that has governed the area since forever. The alternative I fear is an Islamic state on Israel’s eastern border and that will cause a very big problem. Until Islam’s international caliphate ambition is harnessed, I don’t see any other solution. That’s why I support it and for no other reason.

  8. mostly harmless

    Up until whatever ‘solution’ is arrived at, can we at least agree Israel should treat the Palestinians a little better?

    • richardmillett

      What precisely would you like israel to do while it is being rocketed and attacked daily?

    • Yes you are right –

      it is high time Israel designed a more comfortably to wear suicide belt and other urgently required stuff. It is really a shame that a high-tech country like Israel leaves her neighbours so dependent on their own devices.

      (sarc off)

    • Sharon Klaff

      Better than what? Maybe you didn’t notice that Arab Palestinians in Jordan are the ones who are disenfranchised, living in that true apardheid state.

    • mostly harmless

      Yep sorry, what was I thinking, the kids will after all become adults so they are fair game too.

  9. Further to “mostly harmless”‘s excellent suggestion, might I suggest improving the treatment of Palestinians by adopting the “Syrian model”?

    You get beaten up, tortured, raped (if you’re a lady) and murdered, but at least the perpetrator is a fellow Muslim who is shouting “Allah Akhba!” in unison with you as he does it. Much better than having your vehicle checked at a Zionist roadblock by a Jew!

    • as best I know there are situations which are very conducive to gentlemen getting raped as well.

      As best I know rapists aren’t particular.

  10. Silke.

    I apologize if my words implied any kind of sexual discrimination regarding Syrian government rapes.

    You are quite right that in this area at least, equal opportunities are the strictly adhered to, and both ladies and gentlemen are raped by Assad’s very excellent security forces.

  11. Sharon Klaff

    Information about the light railway in Jerusalem from someone who actually uses it that belies the propaganda and untruth told by the BDS in their attempt to get Veolia to lose its contracts in the UK. It’s time a company being erroneously targeted on false information took these clowns to court. I understand that is possible if someone is deliberately trying to put you out of business through false information.

    http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4221402,00.html

  12. So ” Sharon” wants a from the river to the sea Israel, which would have roughly the same number of Arabs and Jews living in it. Would this be a fully democratic state with freedom of movement and settlement for everyone, or would it be an apartheid state ?

    And as for Daniel’s assertion that what is now Jordan was promised to him as a national home…..The British rejected the declaration of ” the establishment of Palestine AS the Jewish national home ” in favour of ” the establishment of a Jewish national home IN Palestine “. That is, not all of it and they didn’t state exactly where.

    • richardmillett

      Rich, where do you get your numbers for Palestinians on the West Bank?

    • Sharon Klaff

      All I can say Rich, wait and learn. There is a lot happening that will surprise even your little mind.

  13. i said between the river and the sea. Leave out Gaza for the purposes of this particular argument if you must. Whatever the numbers the question remains the same.

    ” Sharon ” you seem to be having a funny turn Don’t want to answer it ?

    • richardmillett

      The numbers are important aren’t they? No one can give me a definitive answer as to the number of Palestinians on the West Bank.
      Sent from my BlackBerry® wireless device

  14. There seems to be disagreement on that around the 2million figure. The numbers are important but don’t change the question. Sharon is telling us there will be a river to the sea Israel and Jordan will be Palestine. The question is what will be the status of the 2m or however many Arab residents of the west bank ( since we are forgetting about Gaza for the sake of this argument ).

    • Sharon Klaff

      I said wait and learn. You really must be patient Rich. Jumping in at the deep end leads to falsities being spread as truth. However tell me one thing. If the Israelis treat the Arab Palestinians so badly how come they have multiplied by some 3.5 x their number in 1948 and that’s only the “West Bank” according to you leaving out those who are Israeli citizens and residents of Gaza? Probably in total the Arabs of the British Mandated region now referred to as Arab Palestinians according to your numbers have multiplied by 2ce that number.

  15. ” Sharon ” maybe when you get over your funny turn and delusions of being privy to information denied to the rest of the world you might address the question. What will be the status of non Jews i.e the present Arab residents of the west bank, in your from the river to the sea Israel. Will they they be full citizens with equal political and civil rights or will it be an apartheid state ? Will there be full freedom of movement and settlement for everyone ? Can Mohamed and Fatima in Nablus look forward to moving in next door to Moshe and Rachel Cohen in Tel Aviv ?

    I do of course understand your reluctance to answer. I suspect it wouldn’t be a pretty one.

  16. Sharon Klaff

    I’ve no intention Rich of falling into your thought camp. I know the record of Israel as a nation of the world in which it makes more than its share of contributions to the welfare of mankind, including those Arab Palestinians you talk about. You need not take any notice of what I say. That’s your choice. My sense is that you agree with an Arab Palestine from the Jordan to the sea in which no Jews will live according to the now PM of the Hamas/Fatah terrorist organisation Mahmoud Abbas. So what will they do with the Jews of Israel Rich? You see Israel has a good track record of human rights. Hamas/Fatah does not, founded as they are in that now well known charter you can read about on the BBC website in which genocide of all Jews in the world is espoused. So your little debate is really a hypothetical nonsense that shows that you support that genocide. I don’t!

  17. no answer came the loud reply

  18. That is not only an option but an extremely attractive one. Then this from the river to the sea Israel truly could be a light unto the nations. Imagine Jerusalem as a open city. Jews and Arabs in this tiny space showing the world the way forward. And the Palestinian on the street would buy it and do everything in their power to make it work.

    And we would have real zionism.

    I don’t think this is what ” Sharon” is planning

  19. Sharon Klaff

    Rich, it’s certainly not what Hamas has in mind:

  20. Doubtless. It is also not what you and Jonny Hoff et al have in mind either. At least you have the cojones to say it.

    Still I am sure we can find you and Hams a small corner of Antarctica where you can do your thing too.

  21. Sharon Klaff

    This is what Hamas is planning:

    Note how Al Zahhar talks of the planned ingathering of the Jews to “Palestine” so they can more easily be exterminated. No different to Mein Kampf and anyone who ignores it is culpable in this clearly stated criminal ambition, just as were the ordinary Germans who stood on by. It is well recorded that the Arabs in the mandated region supported and were indeed active allies of Hitler and his Nazi ambitions. This rhetoric is the delusion that Hamas can complete the task Hitler planned for the Jews.

    The debate is not about two states or one state, but about what the leaders of the Arab Palestinians have in mind for the Jews, not only in the ME, but worldwide.

    So Rich, thank goodness what you think matters not. Thank goodness Israel has a handle on these aspirations and your views play no part in how the Jews will never allow this genocide to happen. Never again means truly never again.

  22. I thought it was about what certain fruit loops that frequent this blog site had planned for the Arab residents of the west bank in this from the river to the sea Israel. But since you only want to talk about Hamas ( which I am perfectly to do when the topic is Hamas ) and I want to talk about this there is no point in continuing the conversation.

  23. I can only assume the plan is to load them onto trains and transport them across the river to ” Palestine “

    • Sharon Klaff

      The only people ever in the entire history of the world to have been put on trains and transported anywhere were the Jews of Europe taken to the gas chambers in a carefully devised plan to ethnically cleanse the world of Jews devised by those very civilised people called Germans who like the Arab Palestinians voted in a government they knew espoused such Jew hatred so as to perpetrate a genocide. Hitler’s partners in that plan were the Arab Palestinians and today they continue to attempt that final solution. For you to even suggest that behaviour of any Jew is disgusting and depraved, particularly at his very time when the Jewish people have commemorated the 6 million, herded worse than cattle to gas market for slaughter. Shame on you.

  24. Sharon Klaff

    In order for Israel to trust its negotiatiing partners in seeking a peaceful resolution to the ME, both must have legitimate and overt governance. Until as recently as December 2011 Hamas was based in Syria and is now on the run looking for an alternative host country in which to house it’s operational headquarters. However, as recently as December 2011 a Hamas spokesperson has denied that it is moving its headquarters out of Syria. The fact that this move is clearly visible reveals the duplicitous posturing of Hamas in an arena gullible for its lies.

    Hamas governance:
    http://www.terrorism-info.org.il/malam_multimedia/English/eng_n/html/ipc_249.htm

    Question: If Hamas is the legitimate leadership of a legitimate state, voted in by the people in an open and democratic election, why does it have a controlling headquarters stationed outside of that state that is not answerable to, but in control of the people?

    Imagine if the UK or US establishing Whitehall or Washington in Kenya or the Philippines. Imagine if they also had departments within their organisation to suppress opposition and to conduct terrorist activities.

    So Rich, the ME is not as simple as you make out. If it were it would be a booming economic co-operative of all of the peoples in the whole region playing a major positive role in world affairs. Wish that it were!

  25. Sharon Klaff

    The essays of this excellent blog have a thread connecting them – the delegitimisation of Israel.

    Richard is witness to and records endless amounts of meetings that take place somewhere in the UK on almost every day of the week that espouse Jew hatred and a final solution for Israel and hence for all Jews. Sometimes it covers occurrences on campuses (the canabalistic biting of a pro Israel activist at SOAS) or meetings at Amnesty International in London (of “Amnesty supports Hamas Rights Worldwide” ethos) demonstrations against Israel and companies who emanate from that country or do business with it (at Ahava, NHM’s Veolia exhibition, supermarkets that sell Israeli produce etc) or court cases of those who commit crimes in the name of the Arab Palestinian people (Brighton case in which Judge Bathurst Norman was Judicially sanctioned) sometimes kangaroo courts (reconstituted RT) that are set up by eminant judges, QCs and various Jew haters (amongst them traitor Jews) to promote their Jew hatred and hang draw and quarter Israel at biased hearings in which there is no attempt at balance and where activists are encouraged to take part in criminal activities. Behind all of this is Iran and MB sponsored Hamas with a charter that calls for the genocide of all Jews worldwide (see BBC website).

    As I said before, when a man becomes insulting it shows the shallowness of his argument. There is a bigger picture than you accusing me of ethnic cleansing aspirations or of being a fruit loop. It is the Jewish people of whom ethnic cleansing attempts have been carried out for 4000 years. To accuse Jews of this crime is called replacement theory, in which the perpetrator reflects his crime on those he accuses. So Rich, there’s a saying about caps and fitting. Go wear yours.

  26. Well that told me. Didn’t answer the question but you can’t have everything.

  27. Rich Armbach I presume .

    • Sharon Klaff

      Hi Harvey – what a breath of fresh air to know you are still here after all that rubbish from the Rich!

  28. Hi Harv

  29. Well done Sharon, standing up to this blog-sneak

    • Sharon Klaff

      Nice to hear from you Rubin. I was beginning to think all sensible people had abandoned the world leaving it in the hands of fools!

  30. (I just can’t get used to this new layout!)
    Well done Sharon, standing up to this ‘blogsneak’ who keeps repeating the slogan ‘from the river to the sea’. We heard this outside Ahava last year. It makes me wonder if he wasn’t one of those yelling “From the river to
    the sea, Palestine shall be free” and IDF-CIA how many babies did you kill today! No two-states for these morons then, only a one-state solution, meaning NO-STATE. Just another state with constant strife and mayhem on the streets like so many others in the region. I rather think that its not so much his support for the Palestinian cause that drives this guy, but his psychotic hatred of Jews to make him come out with such insulting analogy as transporting Arabs out on trains; comparing it to the Holocaust that Sharon so eloquently describes above.

  31. Hello Sharon.
    We are just about back from sunny Israel in rain and wind-swept London and had to put the heating on. We spent Yom HaShoah in Jerusalem; only in Israel does one feel the special atmosphere of the day. I intend to write a little more about it, but my laptop is playing up and I lose copy with the icons interfering with the text. We are waiting for our grandson to turn up for a sleep-over and hopefully he will sort me out.

  32. Mission accomplished Thanks for that Sharon. You have no idea how much you have helped me

  33. Sharon Klaff

    So now I know a little about Rich Armbach – Howard Jacobson’s model for the ASHamed Jew.

    Seems he belongs with the Naturei Carta who support Iran and its PM Ahmadinejad who calls for death to all Jews in keeping with Iran’s proxy Hamas.

  34. smile keep typing Sharon and keep me interested in your previous blog history,

  35. Sharon Klaff

    Rubin, one simply has to Google this guy – he writes an anti Israel/Jew blog in the JC. He is beyond help as his head is so addled with hatred for his own people. I am sure you have come across such people in the tapestry of your life. Maybe you can tell him a little bit about life as clearly he hasn’t learnt much despite the 4 degrees he says has acquired.

    I look forward to reading your thoughts on Yom HaShoa in Israel.

  36. Sharon, I don’t really understand. Before I can comment, is Rich with the four degrees the same guy who is strumming the guitar?

  37. Sharon Klaff

    I don’t know Rubin, but in any event he can’t sing and his words don’t work. This is what happens when the ego takes over from the brain, whatever little there is of it. Venom never makes a good tune.

  38. Sharon Klaff

    Mudar Zachran speaks about the real Apartheid state in the ME.

  39. “And as for Daniel’s assertion that what is now Jordan was promised to him as a national home…..The British rejected the declaration of ” the establishment of Palestine AS the Jewish national home ” in favour of ” the establishment of a Jewish national home IN Palestine “. That is, not all of it and they didn’t state exactly where.”

    Hi Rich,

    What an interesting comment, reminiscent of the excuses made by His Majesty’s government all those years ago. In my opinion, it is wrong for reasons of both logic and history.

    Logically, the use of a noun implies reference to all of it unless otherwise stated. For example, If I say that a person is not allowed in France, the simple meaning is that he is not allowed in all of it. Nobody would expect them to say, “You are not allowed in all of France.” Likewise, I believe that you’ll find few if any legal documents that add “all” before every noun. If one is not allowed to drink alcohol in a certain place that means all alcoholic beverages in all of that place. If the intent was “alcohol except beer” or anywhere except on the balcony, that would have to be specifically stated. You couldn’t get away with drinking with the defense that you didn’t drink in all of the establishment.

    However, all that is as nothing. If you claim that the British Mandate (which incorporates the Balfour Declaration) intended for other national groups to receive parts of Palestine, you must explain who they were. Regarding existing non-Jewish populations, the wording is quite clear:

    “…it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine”

    No mention is even made of their political rights and neither is this an oversight. Look at what follows:

    “….or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country.”

    Yes, according to the charter of the British Mandate a Russian Jew is entitled to more political rights in Moscow than a Palestinian Arab in Jerusalem. Clearly, the intent was not to partition parts of Palestine off for local Arabs. Nor could the intent have been to give parts away to an existing Arab state. Article 5 states:

    “The Mandatory shall be responsible for seeing that no Palestine territory shall be ceded or leased to, or in any way placed under the control of, the Government of any foreign Power.”

    So, the League of Nations did not intend for ALL of Palestine to become a Jewish national home, what did they intend would happen to the rest?

    To reiterate, I am quite pragmatic and have no intention of conquering Jordan to repair a historic injustice of almost a century, though the IDF could do so with little difficulty. We currently live in about 24% of Mandate Palestine in which Arab minorities enjoy a standard of living that makes them the envy of most of their cousins, not only those being massacred in Syria. Israeli Arabs are the only Arabs in the Middle East who are entitled to democratically choose their government. They also enjoy “civic and religious rights” the like of which most neighboring Arabs can only dream.

  40. Hi Daniel

    . Except that the Zionists pushed for ” the establishment of Palestine AS the JNH and the British SPECIFICALLY rejected this in favour of ” the establishment of a JNH IN Palestine”

    Further if I said I we are going to establish a park in France that wouldn’t mean all of France was to become a park.

    And where would your analysis leave res. 242 ? ” Israel will withdraw from territories …..” occupied during the six day war ?

    The reality is that the British didn’t know what they meant, except that they didn’t mean that the Jews would have sovereignty over all the Arabs in ” Palestine ” Still less did they mean that Palestine would be a Jewish State or even that there would be a Jewish state IN Palestine..

    The tragedy is that they never did figure out what they meant. I am no fan of British imperialism but in this case they mostly did their best in an impossible situation ( albeit one they arrogantly laid upon themselves ) and albeit with the usual sprinkling of self interest. and albeit with the necessary bending before prevailing winds.

    I am sure Israel would ” win ” any war it launched against Jordan. Occupying
    it and holding onto it would be beyond their resources.

    I don’t think any of this matters too much. We are where we are. My comment about your comment was a bit of an aside really. Sharon is planning a from the river to the sea Israel, and I merely enquired what the plans were for the Arabs that currently live outside 48 Israel who would then find themselves living IN Israel. I think that is a reasonable and valid question. Since she refuses to answer it we are perfectly entitled to assume the worst.

    • richardmillett

      Even if WB Palestinians became israeli citizens, let’s say, wouldn’t there still be a Jewish majority of about 5.5m to 3.3m? They could share in israel’s success and would be far better off in every sense than if ruled by Abbas, Arafat, Hamas etc.
      Sent from my BlackBerry® wireless device

    • “The reality is that the British didn’t know what they meant, except that they didn’t mean that the Jews would have sovereignty over all the Arabs in ” Palestine ””

      Hi Rich,

      To reiterate, it was not the British, but the League of Nations that determined the terms of the Mandate. I asked you what they had in mind if it was neither the Arabs living in that area nor any other state and it seems rather ingenious to say that they didn’t know what they meant. We are talking about a serious international body composed of many individuals no less wise than you or I.

      Regarding your question to Sharon, I would remind you that at the time of partition the plan was for the State of Israel to have 51% Jews to 49% non-Jews, the latter having a far higher birth rate. I guess that had you been there then, you would have had a question or two to ask as well.

      Contrary to common anti-Semitic perceptions we are not racists and have never sought to prevent non-Jews from marrying or having children in Israel. An Israeli Arab who has a son is entitled to all the same rights and government help as his Jewish neighbor. Both the Israeli Arab and “Palestinian” birthrates have plummeted since 1948 and 1967 respectively, for all the normal reasons of education and socio-economic progress. I am unafraid of the demographic bogeyman, especially when brandished by those who do not accept the legitimacy of any Jewish State in the first place.

      As you doubtlessly know,about 95% of Palestinians are currently ruled by the Palestinian Authority and the Hamas and “enjoy” a great deal of autonomy in most areas (that do not include killing Jews). If any of the remaining 5% were to wish to apply for Israeli citizenship in order to be good, loyal and constructive citizens, I see no reason not to look favorably on such individual applications.

  41. If the ensuing state was a full democracy in the sense that we understand it in the west than they indeed would be better off .I have no illusions about what a Fatah govt would be like. The PA are corrupt collaborators with authoritarian tendencies.. And having spent a great deal of time among the people I can assure you they have no illusions either. There is the Gaza complication of course. Egypt wont have Gaza back, it is not viable of itself so Israel, having created the problem would have to accomodate Gaza too.

    But I don’t think any of this is what Sharon has in mind. Since your credit with her is greater than mine, maybe you might ask her ?

    • richardmillett

      I don’t think Israel created any problem, apart from its coming into existence but irrespective it is impossible to accommodate Gaza as that would wipe out the Jewish state both demographically and militarily. Why couldn’t Gaza go it alone? It would be a tourist’s haven and could eventually stand alone with a lot of investment.
      Sent from my BlackBerry® wireless device

  42. In spite of the things he comes up with, it surprises me not that Rich, though hiding his family name, turned out to be a Jew. He may well be a Jew, but certainly hasn’t got a Jewish heart . Unfortunately, we have had our share of self-hating Jews throughout our long history. There is a folk saying in Yiddish that you have to put up with your own ‘Hoiker’ (hunchback), you can do nothing about it. The sages had a term for such Jews ‘Meshumad’ (to destroy) because they defame and help to destroy their own people. It is written in the daily prayer-book, v’lamalshinim al tehi tiqvah’ (and for the slanderers let there be no hope).

    The guy boasts several degrees which is no guarantee of wisdom and good judgment. For instance, he asks if an Arab couple would be allowed to live in Tel Aviv but chooses to be blissfully unaware that if a Jew were to take a wrong turn into an Arab area he would have his throat cut in no time at all. Finally, in spite of his string of degrees, the man has never learnt to be polite to a lady.

  43. Rubin I didn’t ” boast ” of three degrees. Sharon sarcastically asked if I had studied science at school and I imparted the information by way of emphasis.

    Richard Israel created the Gaza problem by firstly subjecting it to a prolongued occupation and then getting out, at least on the ground. By prolonging the occupation so long Israel had incurred a responsibility it abrogated. A very, very smart move from a short sighted Israeli perspective though.From Sharon’s perspective it kept the options open. Two states or one state without Gaza ? I can’t believe you think it is a viability.

    Daniel the mandate was to implement the BD. It never added to it or expanded on it.

    The PA don’t rule anyone, except as Israeli proxies. The PA are a piece of Israeli outsourcing. What can be out sourced can be re in sourced though Israel would never be dumb enough to do that. If the PA really had the interests of the people at heart they would dissolve themselves and let Israel resume doing its own dirty work. The present leadership will never do that they are too corrupt and self serving. That could change though.

    So Daniel Israel rules over a people numbering around 2m and you tell us it might consider citizen applications on an individual basis from 5% of them. What kind of a state is that ? Does it begin with an A ?

  44. Hi Rich,

    Much of what you say about the Palestinian Authority may be true. They are corrupt, as corrupt as Saudi Arabia, Kuwait or any of the other Arab regimes in our neighborhood. In case you’re new to the neighborhood, none of them are really elected in the Western sense of the term. Until fundamental changes take place in their civil societies, nor will they be.

    Your contention that the PA is an Israeli proxy is about as absurd as the Jewish bankers plot, but assuming you’re right, then what’s your problem? The PA was “elected” by the “Palestinian” people under “international supervision” and has every right to choose to do whoever’s “dirty work” that they so wish. What could be fairer than that?

    That’s the weird thing. You guys live in this cloud cuckoo land which bears absolutely no resemblance to the Land of Israel that I see as I look out of my living room window, but even in that fictional world your arguments don’t hold water.

  45. They may have” elected” them Daniel but they have changed their minds.

    So rather than go round in circles, what vision do you have of a final status outcome ? If you could arrange things what would it all look like ?

    ” You guys “, what do you mean by that ?

  46. In reverse order:

    “You guys” is a second person plural pronoun phrase, often used to make it clear that you are addressing more than one person.

    I have no idea as to whether they have changed their minds or not and neither have you. I have no idea who you are or where you live, but unless you can prove that you were elected by the “Palestinian People”, their “democratically elected leadership” represent their wishes and aspirations, not you (singular usage).

    Regarding my vision of “a final status outcome” that’s easy. One day an Arab leader who really wants peace, not as ruse or as a way of weakening us, but because he really wants peace, will sit down with our Prime Minister and say, “I’m tired of war. I’m tired of killing. I want peace.” He and his people will put down their weapons or recycle them into medical equipment to treat their children. On that day they’ll discover that we can be the best and most forgiving neighbors in the world. Gradually, as friends do, we’ll talk about everything and solve every problem that we can.

    That’s not the question Rich. We all know what the end will be, it will be even more wonderful than our lives today. The question is; what will happen in the meantime? What will be until those who want to destroy us finally come to their senses and give up on the dream that has caused their people so much suffering and pain.

    Unfortunately, here I am less optimistic. I look at the way they treat each other in Iraq, Egypt, Syria, Libya, Gaza, Afghanistan, etc and I fear that their wait will be long. Furthermore, I sincerely believe that every attempt to cut corners in getting to what you call “the final status outcome” either by wars or bogus “peace deals” has only made the situation worse.

    What is needed until the “the final status outcome” are nerves of iron and what we in this neighborhood call, “the patience of a Bedouin”.

    • Daniel,

      this comment of yours reminded me of this report I read about one man’s adjusting himself to reality.

      http://www.tnr.com/book/review/stone-underground-palestine

      Underground to Palestine
      by I.F. Stone
      Pantheon Books, 1978, 260 pp.

      PS: except for your comments being always a to me very rewarding read, I doubt that this guy “rich” who seems to me to be rich in facetiousness only (and the to me all too familiar smell of his kind of a to me sickening wish to inflict pain) is worthy of so much attention.

      • As usual, you are quite right Silke. Rubin expressed similar sentiments – thanks.

        BTW – I finished the book!

      • congratulations!

        may its reception be worthy of what you’ve put into it.

  47. I see. Is that code for drag it out as long as possible, steal as much land as we can in the meantime until there is little left to talk about ?

    I suspect it is.

  48. Drag what out Rich? What exactly are we dragging out? At this point in time it is Abu Mazen who refuses to return to the negotiating table until all kinds of barmy preconditions are met. He is coming to the table without a penny in his pocket. He has absolutely nothing to offer us and he has the audacity to set preconditions.

    Regarding stolen lands, do you have any evidence that anyone has stolen any specific land? If so, tell the owners to lodge a complaint with the Israeli police and they’ll be happy to investigate.

  49. Hi Richard. I have a problem, I keep wiping off text. My whizkid grandson says its the Blog designer. Can you please look into it. A short post takes me ages to do.

  50. This would be the Israeli police ? Now this is the problem. Israeli’s have lived as thieves for so long and it has become so habitual they are no longer able to recognise theft as theft.

    My wife used to work in a category A men’s prison in Stockton on Tees in the education department. She got along with most. The murderers, rapists, bank robbers etc. The ones she couldn’t get along with were the burglers., . They were totally immoral., with a complete sense of entitlement. So it is with Israelis. It is impossible to talk to them because they have an unshakeable sense of entitlement and everything being theirs to dispense of as they wish.

    ” The universe is ours but we are willing to negotiate about Pluto “

    • richardmillett

      That’s a bit of a sweeping statement bordering on racist, isn’t it?

    • y’all see how right I was about suspecting that underlying all his “reasoning” is a wish to inflict pain. If somebody suffers from that wish in real life it is called sadism.

  51. Richard have you never heard of ” state land ” and the absentee AKA legalised theft laws ? Or of Migron ?

  52. If there has been no theft why should they be compensated ? Screw em.

    • richardmillett

      I don’t think they’ll accept compensation as it compromises what they really want, which is to go to Israel.
      Sent from my BlackBerry® wireless device

  53. Who are you talking about Richard ?

  54. theoriginaljewishamericanprincess

    That’s more or less what we did to the Native American people.

  55. Rich is an utter bore, full of his own importance. It is not for me to tell others what to do, but I intend to let him stew in his own juice from now on and simply ignore his hatred of everything Israeli.That will hopefully put a stop to his insults and verbosity. It appears that Sharon has already done so, and maybe one or two others who have the good sense to remain shtum.

  56. “So it is with Israelis. It is impossible to talk to them because they have…”-

    After having a chance to meet Mrs Rich and admire her illustrious career, we are treated to the grotesque:

    “So it is with Israelis. It is impossible to talk to them because they have an unshakeable sense of entitlement…”

    Now this statement interests me Rich. Does this apply to all Israelis? Does it apply to our 1.6 million Arab citizens or only to us Jews? Does it apply to all Jews and no Arabs or some Jews and some Arabs? You must enlighten me here. Does it apply to all Israelis irrespective of their political views or only those whose views you do not agree with? Does it apply to all Israelis irrespective of age or gender?

    And that is always the last recourse of the ignorant who know nothing of the subject under discussion. “What really annoys me about you is that you always think you’re right.” No attempt to tackle substantive issues with cold facts and analysis, just, “It is impossible to talk to them..”

    I have answered all your questions at length with cold facts and you tell me “It is impossible to talk to them..”, that’s all you have left. I have known many people with degrees in philosophy, but I do not believe that anything written on this blog under the name Rich was written by one of intellect or learning in this area. You have not come here to learn, but to demonstrate your ignorance and your last comment has bordered on racism. I shall adopt the excellent suggestion of my good friend Rubin and ignore you henceforth or until you retract that vile statement. I too, shall respectfully urge others to follow suit.

  57. Daniel you were asked a question. It wasn’t a loaded question, it wasn’t a have you stopped beating your wife type question. You weren’t asked to ” choose between two options neither of which reflected your position ” The question offered you a blank canvas. ( yes I have been looking back through the blogs and have noted that you have been asked the question before but have been unforthcoming responding with poetry that although beautifully written comes nowhere near answering the question.

    I will ask it again albeit I am going to be ignored. If you could arrange things as you wished what would it all look like ?

    And don’t worry I have been ignored by the best.

  58. ps it applies to pro illegal occupation/ pro illegal settlement Israeli’s.

  59. pps the wonderful thing about being ignored is you always get to have the last word. Can you keep it up I wonder ?

  60. My wife and I have just returned from an extended holiday in Israel. Having heard so much about ‘Israeli racism and Apartheid’ spouted on the streets of London by BDS and other morons; we decide we would do a little investigating, imagining we were first-time visitors to Israel.

    We flew into the most spectacular state-of-the-art airport that I had ever seen, anywhere in the world. I had of course seen it before, but I marvel at it every time. On boarding the taxi, I thought the driver was an Israeli Arab by his guttural accent, that I could perhaps sound out about any racism he had encountered, during the long ride to Herzliya on the Mediterranean. But the driver turned out to be a Kurdish Jew! This helps to nail the lie that Jews are interlopers and should return to Poland and Germany. More than half the Israeli population originate from the Levant. In fact, Jews lived all over the Eastern-Mediterranean, long before the Sons of Ishmael fanned out of the Arabian Peninsula, scimitars swinging above their heads. Furthermore, Jews were once the majority in Medina itself, before warlord Mohammed slaughtered them to a man.

    Having arrived at our destination, the next day we went for a long walk and sat down in a small park and children’s playground for a little rest. In a real Apartheit state one would have expected to see a sign on the bench for ‘Jews Only’. In fact a woman with an Arab headdress sat down next to us, watching her children at play with other Israeli children. We next went into a supermarket where we were served by an ever so polite Arab assistant, behind the kosher deli-counter, who sliced the cervolad-salami, wafer-thin, the way Michele likes it! He could have equally been a Jew; who knows and nobody cares. At the cash-till it must have been a Druze girl, who dress less modestly than the Moslem girls. Israel is THE multi-cultural country, that puts England to shame.

    The next day we went to lunch to a seafront cafe. I didn’t see any sign on the door ‘Arabs not welcome’. Again we were served by a helpful Arab waiter who could have equally been a Jew of Oriental origin, who cares, Jews and Arabs work together all over the place. I got chatting to a local beachcomber-type who told me that Avi’s cafe, we had known from before, had recently changed hands and was now owned by an Israeli Arab. I’m sure no Israeli Jew would refrain from frequenting the place as a result, providing the humus and the fare remain good. Compare this with the PA where there is the death penalty for selling property to a Jew. If this is not Apartheit, it’s certainly Judenfrei! Of course, had I not known, I would have realised by now that Israeli Apartheit was just one big lie. In fact, it wasn’t the Palestinians who first coined the phrase; it was that nincompoop, Desmond Tutu.

    For Yom HaShoah we went to Jerusalem, the day is always difficult, particularly for me. Daniel Marks’s wife, Roxana, invited me to give a talk at the historical Anglican International School in Jerusalem, where Roxana teaches. Its a Christian and mixed school in every sense of the word. The assembled pupils were aged from 11 to 17 as well as the headmaster and teaching staff. Daniel was there as well, to hook up the presentation for me. I must say, the pupils were all very well behaved and no awkward questions were asked, though I was prepared for it. Knowing there were Arab pupils among them who might have a problem with the Holocaust. My talk was timed to finish with the siren and two-minute’s silence. Several of the older boys and girls remained seated. It didn’t upset me too much, I quite expected it, so it was no surprise. Israel is a mature and free country….

    On the return flight, a friend from London called me over to introduce me to a Jamaican gentleman she was sitting next to. He led a group of 25 people on their first visit to Israel and the holy sites. They belong to an Afro-Caribbean community in London.The man said it was an experience they would never forget and would return there as soon as possible, with the entire community. I asked him how well they were received and he said that they encountered nothing but friendliness wherever they went. I told him there are certain people on the streets of London who accuse the Jewish state of being racist. You can tell them from me in one word, rubbish! And when back home, he said, he would denounce these terrible lies at every opportunity.

    Back home, I picked up the JC and read that an Arab Druze had just been appointed Israeli envoy to Auckland, New Zealand.
    Some Apartheit State indeed!

    • Rubin’s excellent description only fails to mention a delicious breakfast at the Anna Ticho House that Mr and Mrs Katz insisted on paying for. That man drives a hard bargain and drinks very small cups of expresso.

      The truth is that until Roxana arrived at the school, Holocaust Day was ignored altogether. As Rubin said, the overwhelming majority of pupils did stand and those who sat were quiet and solemn about it. The well-meaning deputy head had announced ahead of time that not standing was acceptable.

      As a child in England I stood up on Remembrance Day alongside friends whose grandparents had fought for German Kaiser during the Great War. We knew that as long as we chose to live in the UK we should be loyal and patriotic citizens of Her Majesty. I’m guessing that nothing is taken for granted today.

      I can sympathize with an Israeli Arab who finds it hard to celebrate Israel Independence Day or even stand up on our Memorial Day for Israel soldiers killed since 1860 in battles against various Arab enemies. I would still demand these from him, but I’d understand his pain.

      However, I find the reluctance to stand up on our Holocaust Day more puzzling. True, their then leader the Mufti of Jerusalem sat in Berlin urging Hitler to hurry with the execution of the Final Solution. True it was the Arab resistance to Jewish immigration that prevented large parts of European Jewry from being evacuated and effectively sealed their fate, but we are in 2012 and nobody is blaming them for the 6,000,000. Officially all Arab and anti-Zionist spokesmen condemn the Holocaust, so what is their problem?

      Before anyone asks me if I’ll stand up on Naqba day, the answer is “Yes”. If G-d forbid a Palestinian State is created and if for whatever reason I chose to live in “Palestine” or find myself there on that day, I’ll respectfully stand up with its citizens.

  61. Rubin
    We go round in circles with these people . The fact is there is no common ground and nothing to be discussed . Their ideology is driven by a hate which has little to do with the Palestinian cause , or any humanitarian cause . If it was they would be outside the Syrian and Sudanese embassies at this very moment denouncing the atrocities that are taking place as we speak .
    How many tens of thousands murdered in Syria . How many in Darfur ?
    The simple undeniable fact is that organisations such as the Psc are institutionally racist and to be specific antisemitic . They are a safe repository for antisemites to engage with other like minded individuals behind the cover of a ’cause ‘
    It has even proved necessary to conduct a witch hunt culminating in an EGM to divest themselves of one such individual but then only in the interests of maintaining their image .
    Their vote resulted in the expulsion of said individual but with almost 20 % voting against .
    What sort of organisation carries such a percentage of racists . Maybe the BNP .
    As a Jew such as Armbach is prepared to overlook this in the interest of a cause and a people . A people who are dedicated to the destruction and will never accept Israel s existence in one square metre of ‘ Palestine ‘
    Psc is racist and antisemitic . Never forget that . Never cease to repeat it loud and clear

  62. So thats all right then, a bunch of maudling , sentimental anecdotes wipes the slate and makes the brutal illegal occupation ok.

    • richardmillett

      So what is your ideal solution to all this, rich?

    • “the brutal illegal occupation”

      Repeating this ‘illegal’ drivel any number of times doesn’t make it so. It just proves that you are an ignorant prat.

  63. What sort of organisation carries such a percentage of racists . Maybe the BNP. And how did PSC get into this ?

  64. Well Richard I acknowledge that it is not easy. I am inclined to be a bit of a two stater. But there are probs.

    First the Israeli government are adamant that Israel will never divide or share Jerusalem or ever ” cede ” the Jordan Valley. And the Likud charter specifically declares there will not be a Palestinian state. So that kinda sends the two state idea to the cutting room floor.

    Second I shudder at the thought of a solution that leaves the Palestinian people at the tender mercies of the PA. On the ground the people hate the PA almost as much as they hate the IOF..

    So some kind of fully democratic state between the river and the sea seems the only life enhancing option. option.

    It is not impossible. West bank Palestinians are the most secular of all middle east Arabs.

    I know this is not a full answer but if you are interested I am happy to continue the discussion, though maybe not this evening.

    By the way I have a question for you. I would prefer not to ask it in an open forum for your sake not mine. If you would like to supply me with your email address. Mine is realzionist@live.co.uk

    And by the way I was joking about Leeds United. I hope they do well, I used to live not far from Elland Road and my daughter was was born in Pontefract General.

    Also looking back through the blogs Bridlington keeps cropping up. As someone who lived there for a short while I find this intriguing. What has Bridlington got to do with anything ?

  65. Sharon Klaff

    Rubin, thank you for sharing that with us. Of course those of us who go to Israel regularly know it is not an Apartheid state. I grew up in SA so I am rather an expert on such a state and I can tell you that the only Apartheid state in the region is Jordan where the non Hashemites and non Bedouin residents are disenfranchised.

  66. Hullo Rich,

    Thank You for important support of Palestinian gloryers struggle. You are very right that Isrealis are always thinking all the answers are with them and their most clever. I am ignoring the questions of Daniel like;

    ‘Does it apply to our 1.6 million Arab citizens or only to us Jews? Does it apply to all Jews and no Arabs or some Jews and some Arabs?’

    He know that you are only talking about Israeli Jews and also Jews that are living in another places. We say in Arabic that if your camel farts in the nights it is time to buy a new wife!

    All the best and I shall kiss your mustache,

    Gamil

    • Sharon Klaff

      If you heard you camel doing that in the night it means you weren’t with your wife so she should be delighted that you “buy” another one!

      Thank goodness in Judaism we have the Ten Commandments that tell a man to honour his wife – no mention of the camel!

  67. Hi Rubin and Sharon
    Just to further emphasise the malicious absurdity of ‘ so called Israeli apartheid ‘ , my clients are mainly Israeli and mostly from the Silicon Valley . The last few years I have witnessed an ever increasing number of Arab Israelis representing these companies visiting the uk in middle to senior management positions . Five years back it was mainly youngsters in programming positions .
    In other words , they have made the breakthrough of the so called glass ceiling ( think that may be a phrase which applies to women and sexism in the workplace but it will do ) .
    It makes me sick and disheartened to the core to read the lies disseminated by the ‘ Forces of darkness ‘ . I speak from my own limited experience . Multiply this again and again with other Israeli companies doing business in the Uk and then take it globally .
    I take comfort from the fact that while the haters are performing their panto and occasionally vandalising Israeli products in Tescos , the reality is that Uk Israel trade runs into the billions and then extrapolate from there the global performance emanating from the economic power house that is Israel .
    The Palestinians could have been part of that from day one . From 1947 . They chosen course was to present themselves as the eternal Dar al Harb and have reaped the bitter rewards ever since .
    Understandably we are dismayed by the hatred and lies disseminated by the haters . The antisemitic fascists of the islamofascist far left as represented by organisations such as the antisemitic psc .
    In reality they signify nothing . They are as Finklestein recently and famously remarked ,nothing but a cult . A cult which has no political power and which achieves nothing except the false promise of Israels destruction to a gullible Palestinian people .
    During the Habimah performances , they will doubtless perform their narcissistic ritual .
    In that same week Israeli companies will have concluded hundreds of millions of pounds of business .
    Take heart in that true reality !

  68. Sharon Klaff

    Harvey you are so right. As Douglas Murray said at Cambridge thank God these idiots are of no consequence in the bigger picture which is:

    http://opinion.financialpost.com/2012/03/30/lawrence-solomon-a-world-awash-in-oil/

    Its great to be on the right side of things!

  69. “the main settlement blocks would go to Israel with properly worked out and equal landswaps in favour of the Palestinians.”

    Why? There are no Palestinians, there have never been Palestinians, there has never been a country called Palestine. There is no inherent right of any random group of Arabs to establish a country of any particular area X west of the Jordan, because any X would be totally arbitrary. Unless you are one of those people who still believe in the canard that the Green Line established a ‘Palestinian’ country to the east of it, of course, and its area must be sacrosanct (especially if this penalises Israel).
    Any additional Arab country in whose creation Israel acquiesces, would have an area Y equal to what Israel has magnamiously agreed to give up. That’s all.
    Again: there is no ancient country called ‘Palestine’ whose ‘citizens’ are entitled to any such land swaps.

    In other news: please remember to boycott the Co-Op, as I and my family (and anyone else I can persuade, and I am doing my damnedest) are doing, for the antisemitic position it has taken up that J&S must be kept Judenrein.

    • mostly harmless

      ‘please remember to boycott the Co-Op’ I though boycotts don’t work, are counter productive and hateful?

  70. Halper is clearly yet another stupid loser with severe psychological problems.

  71. “I am no fan of British imperialism but in this case they mostly did their best in an impossible situation”

    Hardly. They ceded Transjordan to a foreign power almost immediately, which was a fundamental breach of the most basic principles of the Mandate. Their ‘best’? Only someone like you, clearly unhappy with Jewish sovereignty – the chutzpah of these people! – could make such a stupid claim. And we know why you make it.

  72. Sit down Amberthan/Leah. If the creation of Jordan was a breach of the mandate on ” ceding to a foreign power” grounds tean the creation of a State of Israel would equally have been a breach on the same grounds.

    There are no Palesintions, there never have been Palestinians, there never was a country called Palestine. So freaking what ? there never was a country called Czechoslovakia but one was created. There never was a country called Yugoslavia but one was created. There never was a country called Jordan but one was created. There never was a country called Quebec but one day one will be created. There never was a country called South Sudan but one was created.

    If a state called Palestine is created there will be Palestinians. If you don’t want there to be Palestinians campaign for it to be called something else.

    Richard have you ever met Leah ?

    • “Sit down Amberthan/Leah. If the creation of Jordan was a breach of the mandate on ” ceding to a foreign power” grounds tean the creation of a State of Israel would equally have been a breach on the same grounds.”

      Ignorant bollocks. Britain gave up the Mandate at that point. You really don’t know anything, do you?

      As to calling me ‘Amberthan’ … seek help.

  73. Further to Daniel’s comment about allegiance and respect, I hardly need to point out to him, a Hebrew scholar, that as ‘Wandering Jews’ we are commanded to always remain loyal to the ruler and country we reside in, even if that head of state is less than beneficent to his Jewish subjects. Whereas Muslims, are taught to be loyal to no one but Allah the Merciful and His Prophet Muhammad. For example, during the last ceremony on Remembrance Day, Moslem ‘activists’ defiantly set fire to red poppies in Whitehall, near the Cenotaph.

    In the same vein, an Israeli-Arab high court judge decided recently he cannot stand for, and respect the Hatikvah. He apparently has a problem with some of the wording like: “The soul of a Jew yearns deeply for Zion”. The lyrics were written by a great national poet, back in the 19th cent and he wants it changing – what utter chutzpa! Only ‘Apartheit Israel’ could appoint such a judge. Coupled with the antics of the Arab members in the Knesset, can one imagine any other country tolerating such disgraceful behaviour? Only in super tolerant Israel….

  74. Just how big is your family Amberthan/Leah ? How many friends do you have ? Enough to hurt the coop ? Will this boycott campaign be more successful than your laughable attempts to get the Guardian boycotted ? Maybe an online petition might be in order ?

    Oh and Ruben since you made such a disparaging reference to my heart…I venture to suggest that my heart is more authentically Jewish than yours. Yours having been taken over by idolotry and all.

    • Hi Richard,

      I take personal offense at this last disparaging comment made against Rubin Katz.

      There is nothing that we can do to alter the history of the Holocaust, but besides our obligation to prevent anything of its like happening again we have no less of a duty to do all we can to protect the ever dwindling number of survivors, like Rubin, in any way we can.

      Most regular posters have already chosen to ignore this idiot and all that is left for him is to put up one after another disgusting comment in a vain attempt to attract attention. I care not a jot about what he writes about me, but I believe that with the above comment telling a survivor of the Warsaw Ghetto that his heart is not “authentically Jewish” he has crossed a very obvious line that separates between legitimate free speech and pure unadulterated filth.

      I believe that on this point I speak for many – perhaps six million, whose voices were long ago silenced.

      I

      • richardmillett

        I agree, but we also have freedom of speech and I have stood alongside Rubin and his lovely wife Michelle on many occasions while we have all had abuse hurled at us by members of the PSC and the like and Rubin and Michelle have always remained strong and stoic and never shied away despite what is said to them. I respect that and it is a huge lesson for me and others who have not witnessed what Rubin has and it helps put life in perspective for us.

    • “Just how big is your family Amberthan/Leah ?”

      What ganja are you on? Who is Amberthan?

      “Will this boycott campaign be more successful than your laughable attempts to get the Guardian boycotted ?”

      I never tried to get the Guardian boycotted, you idiot.

  75. Have just read an excellent article: “Happy 64th Birthday, Israel”. By David Horowitz, former editor of the Jerusalem Post. Google it! I promise you will like it. I don’t want to give anything away, only that he touches on what I wrote above.
    ….On watching an Israeli Arab Supreme Court justice – who, incidentally, refuses to sing Israel’s national anthem – sit on a panel that upheld the conviction of an Israeli ex-president on charges of rape.

  76. Oh, by the way. I only recommend the article to well-wishers…!

  77. Well that is not very nice is it ?

  78. Hang on a moment it was Ruben that brought up the subject of hearts, specifically disparaging mine. Am I expected just to say ok Ruben you got it ?

  79. Not Ruben Rubin I apologise for that

  80. Further if you think you can blackmail me into accepting the horrors of the brutal illegal occupation by holocaust stories you probably think that there are fairies at the bottom of your garden.

    There is no exclusive rights to the the lessons of the holocaust. ” You guys ” ( sic ) think that the iron fist ( and you are the iron fist now right ) is the primary lesson. I think otherwise. Oh and by the way Daniel ignoring me would include not reading me. I am so happy that you are not ignoring me babbbbeeeeeee

    • “the brutal illegal occupation”

      Only ignorant prats call it ‘illegal’. Name the law that says it’s ‘illegal’, or STFU.

  81. Sharon Klaff

    Rubin and Michelle are indeed just the finest people. As Richard has said, we have spent many a demo together on the streets of London. It is with great admiration that I am proud to know them both. For Rubin to stand up for freedom and to fight for his people after what he has suffered in his life makes him indeed a man amongst men.

    I am so sorry Rubin that you have been confronted with such crass behaviour from one who professes to be a fellow Jew.

  82. Rubin Katz

    TO ALL OUR ‘STREET-CORNER’ CHUMS AND DANIEL (our own moral backup in the Holy Land!)

    Your fine words has left me speechless, but that won’t do on a blog.
    We are touched and embarrassed by it all. Seriously, enough already mit de glowing accolades…!

    • Rubin
      I “know” you only from what I read on this blog and even if I disregard all others say about you I’d say

      accolade where accolade is due!

      • Hi Silke
        I have met Rubin and Michelle outside Ahava . I m of the firm opinion you can never have enough accolades , so I will add mine too

  83. Only a very brave man would confess to having met someone outside Ahava

  84. Rubin and Michelle are not the only people you have shared a demo with are they Sharon ?

  85. Rubin Katz

    Hi Daniel
    By the way, for the sake of accuracy, I was never in the Warsaw Ghetto, as you stated, though I was in a ghetto in my home-town. (I could not go into detail during my talk in Jerusalem in the time allotted). By the time I got to Warsaw, passing for a non-Jew, to join my elder sister there, the ghetto had already been obliterated together with its heroic defenders, only a few escaped through the sewers. It was they who later founded the kibbutz-museum, Lohamei Hagetaot.

    @ Silke
    You will no doubt be interested to know that during the autumn 1944, a Wehrmacht soldier helped me out with life-saving food from his army rations. He would not have known by my features that I was a Jewish boy, but I have a feeling that he nevertheless guessed it, because I spoke some German (Polish boys didn’t speak German), I was alone and looked in a sorry state. But he never let on. Had he done so, I would have had to run away, for fear of being denounced to the Gestapo – I learnt to trust no one. This was in a place called Wlochy, just outside Warsaw, where he was stationed. I was thirteen and he was probably in his early to middle twenties. All I know about him is, I called him Gefreite Ryschard, but I cannot say whether this was his given or family name, and that he had ginger hair.

    I have written about Ryschard in my memoir, Gone to Pitchipoi’ which is due to be published in the autumn, by the prestigious Academic Studies Press of America. I wouldn’t have thought that my modest effort is of literary value, but they must consider it of important historic interest. Though I am sure it is the definitive wartime ‘adventure’ story of a young boy on the run for his life.

    Wouldn’t it be wonderful, if I could manage to trace Ryschard, through my book when it is published, if he were still alive. His unit pulled out in a hurry, a day or two before 17 January 1945 when the Russians arrived. We could hear the heavy guns, I was overjoyed and his parting words were; “I wish I could come with you”… My sister and I were stunned; was he perhaps a Mischling?

  86. Hi Rubin,

    This site is what is left of the public German telephone directory. Before the age of the mobile it would contain every person with a land line. These days one can opt out and many do but I’d guess that old ones do it less than others.

    http://www3.dastelefonbuch.de/

    I checked because Ryschard in your spelling is so unusual that I got curious and sure enough, the directory knows not a single last name Ryschard. Rischard however comes up with 22 of that last name. Richard as a first name is very common in German.

    My unforgettable former colleague in that office in Paris in 1962 M. Cohen who survived somehow in France (in 1962 he looked like being in his mid-thirties) told me that it was a German soldier who saved his life by pulling him out of a crowd ready to be shipped and hid him under some straw. All in all he said that he preferred us to the French, until the day that is that the German boss of that subsidiary of a German company (his and mine) told him that “Hitler wasn’t all bad.”.

    I am glad you were lucky enough to find one who kept some of his humanity in operation. As to his parting words – I guess that by the time you parted those who had some sanity left were very much aware that they would soon be on a death march of their own. (there are figures that during the last months on the eastern front more German soldiers died than during the whole previous war or something to that effect and I guess those who weren’t drunk with Aryanism more or less knew what was in store for them.)

    Yaacov Lozowick once said that from all Europeans at the time the Germans were the least anti-semitic (at least openly so) which makes it all the more incomprehensible, especially if one thinks that given the right circumstances and pressures the one who helped you may have submitted to peer pressure or whatever else it was that made perfectly normal men comply.

  87. Rubin Katz

    Silke
    I just thought of something that might help to trace the kindly man. Ryschard used to take me “fishing” on a lake in Wlochy. He would toss hand grenades into the lake from a boat which stunned the fish and brought them to the surface and I would wade in to help gather-in the perch. One day he produced jumbo bars of American milk chocolate that came from an American air-drop to supply the insurgents in the Warsaw uprising, where my sister and I were caught up earlier, but we managed to get out of the inferno unscathed.

    If the man is no longer alive, perhaps he talked to his family about a ‘Jewish’ boy named ‘Stefek’. Surely a story about a Wehrmacht lance-corporal who helped to sustain a Jewish boy and his sister for a while, would be of interest in Germany today. Especially if it led to a reunion, after so many years; sixty-eight to be precise. Don’t you think so? Anyway, there isn’t much to be done until my book is out.

    • now fishing with explosives –

      that certainly is something I’ve never heard of a German doing it. My Greek friends from the Dodekanes island would fish with explosives recklessly.

      For the moment I have no idea how I could get “Stefek’s” wish to meet known? The best medium of them all would of course the German tabloid BILD go for it and I guess those who keep the blog achgut.de going have a “wire” to that outlet, but so would have other’s who work for one of the other papers of the same publishing house.

      I myself am alas completely without connections into the world of publishing except for one blogger will be out of business for quite a while having suffered a severe heart attack less than a month ago. (the same who made Daniel’s piece on the “mean Jewish settler” a success.

      But I’ll keep thinking …

      PS: language is not the issue – first they all know enough English and second I’d be happy to interpret whereever necessary – the question is to find the right hook to hang it on and the right way to do it so the quest gets spread.

  88. Rubin Katz

    Thank you Silke for your prompt reply. Now I’m completely confused.

    I am not sure of the spelling – I never saw it written down – at the time I didn’t even own a pencil and I had no schooling during the war. Some years ago when I started on my memoir, it was before the advent of the word-processor, I wrote it in longhand the way the name sounded to me at the time, and the way I thought it would be spelt in German. I never learnt German, the basic German I knew, I picked up in the street during the war and have since forgotten much of it. Having explained it to me, I now realise the ‘y’ must have come from the Polish, instead of an ‘i’ in German. Also, I don’t know about Germany, but in those days, a Polish boy would never address an adult by his first name, so it now has to be Rischard as a last name.

    Thank you anyway Silke, but I don’t think the phone book will help me, it has to come from the other party. Maybe when the book is out some journalist might pick it up and research it further, if he’s looking for a human story.

    • Rubin
      we had a lot of Polish immigrants to the coal mine area around the Ruhr – I don’t know the time frame off-hand but the area there is full of Kowalskis and Podolskis etc. Still the Y as a letter is definitely exotic in Germany.

      I wish it weren’t because sure enough a family name truely spelled Ryschard would be findable in no time whatsoever.

      But don’t despair – once the book is there we’ll think of something or even better your publishing house will – it might even help to find you a German publisher so trying it now before the book is out would mean foregoing that angle.

  89. Yeah I already read it.

    It was less excrutiating than the one about your bike wheel misadventure but excrutiating nonetheless..

    But tell me. ” I’d have no problem standing with the EDL “. Is that the same Melchett Mike ?

  90. Rich (not Millett):

    I used to comment here on this blog and predict you’ll soon tire of the fruit cakes that inhabit the comments thread here:

    Sharon is the one I’ve avoided addressing here at all cost. You would too if you had had the misfortune of reading some of her previous deeply racist exploits. For Sharon, needless to say there exists only One Form of Racism: antisemitism. Sharon (what’s in a name?) will always answer a question by divining what you think, not by stating what she actually thinks

    Daniel is a special needs case. His version of ‘Twos Britain that betrayed the Joooos’ is almost extinct claptrap that used to be peddled quite vigorously around the time Daniel decided to trade his British home for a settlement in the WB. He’s quite never gotten over his ‘betrayal’ narrative. That’s when his not wailing about how it’s really all a religious war, dontchooknow?

    And I see Daniel needed reinforcements in the shape of his pal Mike ‘Belchin’ Melchett, a racist thug if I’ve ever seen one. Past dealings testify to that. A Little Ingelander and EDL fan, now with extra Zionist flavour.

    The only surprise today going by Millett’s past ruminations, is that Hoffman’s stenographer now almost refreshingly endorses a TSS, minus Gaza, naturellement. He’ll resort back to form tomorrow.

    Good luck with this lot. I’ve occasionally read more sense in a Caroline Glick column…

  91. Rubin Katz

    Silke – Indeed, many Polish names do end with an ‘i’ but not at the beginning. And by the way, similar names in Russian would end with the letter ‘y’. The Polish version of Richard is Ryszard and that’s how I arrived at the ‘German’ Ryschard. Thinking that ‘sch’ is far more common in German, than ‘ch’ equivalent to the English ‘sh’.
    Anyway, all this is far more stimulating than some of the sicko comments as of late.

  92. danielmarks

    As a youngster I attended several vigils outside the Soviet Embassy in London; opposite it was a gay pub. This was an interesting place with an excellent cabaret act. I recall the show that impressed me the most was an overweight, middle-aged, but very talented gentleman’s rendition of I’m Burlington Bertie from Bow (William Hargreaves).

    Without delving too much into literary analyses, the musical hall song is about a penniless son of “well off people” who is unemployed and leads an empty meaningless life:

    I’m Bert, p’raps you’ve heard of me
    Bert, you’ve had word of me,
    Jogging along, hearty and strong
    Living on plates of fresh air
    I dress up in fashion
    And when I am feeling depressed
    I shave from my cuff all the whiskers and fluff
    Stick my hat on and toddle up West

    I’m Burlington Bertie, I rise at ten thirty
    And saunter along like a toff
    I walk down the Strand with my gloves on my hand
    Then I walk down again with them off
    I’m all airs and graces, correct easy paces
    Without food so long I’ve forgot where my face is
    I’m Bert, Bert, I haven’t a shirt
    But my people are well off you know.
    Nearly everyone knows me from Smith to Lord Rosebr’y,
    I’m Burlington Bertie from Bow.

    I have to admit that on meeting my good friend Bridlington Gertie I was struck by the similarity to Burlington Bertie. Gertie is an unread unemployed blogger in a cheap house in Bridlington on Sea who seeks fills an empty and wasted life by surfing from one blog to another, attempting to annoy Anglo-Jews. In Israel, needless to say, with the exception of a few Israeli followers of this blog, nobody even knows he exists.
    Gert is interested in but one subject – Israel- yet displays a remarkable ignorance even regarding commonly known undisputed facts. When I first met him, he was under the impression that Jaffa was in “occupied territories” and had been ethnically cleansed. Later he publicly demanded that Richard explain statements that had never been made:

    “…And perhaps Millett would also care to report on the increasing incidencents [sic] of Israelis calling for ‘Arabs to the ovens’? No, thought not.”
    https://richardmillett.wordpress.com/2011/01/25/please-allah-kill-all-the-jews/#comment-6009

    It transpired that he had gleaned the lie off another Anti-Zionist blog, but had forgotten to mention that the only individual who had said anything of the like, was a retired Cuban dictator.
    https://richardmillett.wordpress.com/2011/01/25/please-allah-kill-all-the-jews/#comment-6066

    Gert freely acknowledges his own ignorance. Unlike everyone else here, he has no first-hand knowledge of any of the matters he discusses and when I suggested that everything he knows comes off the net, he indignantly told me that he has bought a few books too.

    All in all I like Gert and always have. He’s by far and away the easiest anti-Zionist to beat up. He’ll invariably rant off pledging never to return, but when the Burlington bingo halls are all closed and nobody has commented on his blog for as as long as he can remember, he’ll always be back for more.

    I’m Burlington Bertie, I rise at ten thirty
    And Buckingham Palace I view.
    I stand in the yard while they’re changing the guard
    And the queen shouts across “Toodle oo”!
    The Prince of Wales’ brother along with some other
    Slaps me on the back and says “Come and see Mother”
    But I’m Bert, Bert, and Royalty’s hurt,
    When they ask me to dine I say no.
    I’ve just had a banana with Lady Diana
    I’m Burlington Bertie from Bow.

    Welcome home Gert.

    • Daniel

      as you know I keep an eye on Gert’s postings and as in his comment above he is veering more and more towards the Delphic. The harmless explanation for that could be that he is imagining himself as Oscar Wilde’s reincarnation …

      The less harmless explanation could be that his mind is now in decline also.

      That said maybe finally finally finding at least one friend (though I personally wouldn’t trust rich from here to there) could stop Gert’s further downhill slide

  93. Hi Gert

    Thanks for your good wishes but don’t worry about me there is method in my madness.. You are the Bridlington Gert i take it ? I lived there briefly, down Shaftesbury Road on the south side. Lived at Nafferton then moved to Brid. My wife taught at Driffield school. If you care to let me have your email address I have something I am sure will interest you.

    Mine is realzionist@live.co.uk

    Cheers

  94. Hi Daniel

    Do you really think a heavily subsidised, couldn’t make it in the regular world ” settler ” is in any position to make jibes about cheap housing ?

  95. Hi again Daniel

    As well as hating my myself do I hate my wife and kids too ?

    In addition to being a whinging whining dependent blood sucker you are also a very stupid man.

  96. Gertie, this “racist thug” is visiting Yorkshire very, very soon . . . and you and I are going to have that ice cream together – “extra Zionist flavour” – I promise you!

    (If any new readers of Rich’s haven’t seen my dedicated piece on him: http://melchettmike.wordpress.com/2010/03/26/the-israel-only-bashers-a-case-study-bridlington-gert/)

  97. Sharon Klaff

    It’s time to sign off from this piece nits done enough, particularly exposed the race hate of the person who names himself Rich. To call a Jew a blood sucker is race hate and illegal. Wish that Daniel would issue proceedings.

    • danielmarks

      Hi Sharon,

      Ye, sure. I’ll sue him for every penny he has. The only problem being that if he lived in Bridlington with a screwed up marriage to a teacher he hates – there won’t be that much to sue for.

      However, if any lawyer wants to take up the case I’ll gladly donate all “winnings” to his favorite charity, which at this moment seems to be Gertie. In fairness I don’t think the hatred isn’t much to do with my race. I’m guessing it’s more connected to a low self esteem.

      Which reminds me of the story of the story of the man who went to a psychologist complaining that he thought he had an inferiority complex. The doctor examined him and reassured him, “I can assure you sir that you do not have an inferiority complex. You really are inferior.”

  98. Rich,

    We are sad to hear you hate all the people in your family and the wife also. We say:
    “Marriage is like a besieged castle; those who are on the outside wish to get in; and those who are on the inside wish to get out. .”

    • ha ha gamil

    • howdy Gamil

      your remark on marriage (hopefully untrue for lots of married people) made me realize that in the past I kept asking you info on your camels but never ever asked you about your married state?

      Are you married?

      Please tell! thanks!

      PS: please be wary of rich – I somehow suspect him to be the kind of person whose support wouldn’t do you good in the middle to long term. IMHO Puritans always prefer “purity” to life.

  99. Sharon what are your plans for the Arabs in the from the river to the sea Israel you are planning ?

    Could you supply me with a list of those that it is not illegal race hate to call a blood sucker ?.

    Further much of the blood that is being sucked is the blood of Jewish Israeli taxpayers.

    See you next time as we used to say outside of Ahava.

  100. Rubin Katz

    @ Silke
    As a matter of interest, do tell me, are the Germans of today also in the habit of using such choice expletives? All I recall is the innocuous ‘donner-wetter!’
    Being a fairly recent observer of this blog and some of the links. (I only wrote letters to the press which met with less and less success). What a revelation! I’m beginning to think that England has attracted the dross of Europe!

    • Hi Rubin

      as to German use of expletive I’d say if all you have encountered is DonnerWetter then you must have met only choir-boy-style educated guys. DonnerWetter translates literally into thunder-weather and is if at all rarely used as an expletive but as an expression of amazement, acknowledgement of achievement. Lets say in fishing when a big one comes up, DonnerWetter what a capital one would be common.

      My own research on expletive use has let me to find that mediterraneans prefer expressions involving genitals (I don’t remember enough from my time in France to be able to decide whether they qualify as mediterraneans or not). We Germans on the other hand, traditionally at least, restricted ourselves to anal stuff. As best I can tell Anglos are somewhere in the middle using variations of both sh*t and f*ck. During the last decades I seem to notice that f*ck seems to gain precedence over everything else, even with younger Germans.

      BTW our most famous sh*t centered expletive stems from Goethe’s play “Götz von Berlichingen” and as best I know there is still a serious academic discussion going on whether Goethe himself wanted it to be “im” (in) or “am” (at). Mozart liked it too. The variations we have to say that one probably run into the 100s. But I guess smart youngsters of today would restrict themselves to the much less creativity inspiring American all-purpose F…

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leck_mich_im_Arsch

  101. Rubin Katz

    And it applies to girls too!

  102. Rubin Katz

    @ Silke
    They were hardly innocent choir boys; they carried big sticks and guns. I left off the noch einmahl after D and W! There was also verflucht and even variations with arsch in it, but it still doesn’t compare with todays vulgarity. There is no innoscence left, ah perhaps I’m giving my age away. As a boy, I didn’t really understand it, but I remebered the words and as I got older, I understood it with greater clarity.
    Somehow, it seems OK in literature; poetic license. Goethe seems to have had an obsession with that word; did he not liken life to a baby’s nightshirt, short and shitty!

    • Rubin
      to imagine scenes in which your non-choir-boys may have said DonnerWetter noch einmal gives me the shivers (of horror imagined since of course one would use it also for an especially impressive bomb crater and much much worse)

      I don’t remember Goethe and a baby’s night shirt or short and shitty. Actually I don’t remember him using much strong language from him. Somerset Maugham described his dramas as frigid and IMHO that sums up the man pretty well. IMHO he was a good observer but with a cold heart, no tendresse there.

      The one Goethe line I keep ruminating on is the one (from Faust II) that fear and hope are mankind’s worst enemies.

      In my youth adults were aghast about the language we used also. But apart from that yes I wonder how one might feel growing up with stumbling over one’s own ignorance aka innocence as often as I (born 1942) had to. Does one come eventually to the realisation that it is a big sham and one knows nothing or will one prefer to keep up the hubris of the I am well-educated, google-literate and thus I know everything?

      Just think of the adventure of discovering sex – will the excitement of it all be enough to overcome all those how-to-do-”it”-well-lessons they’ve had by the time they reach the age?

  103. Rubin Katz

    ‘Kurz und dreckik’. As I remember it, the latter was an acceptable everyday word in German, but not in England.

    • Rubin

      you are giving me the shivers again

      “dreckig” is one of these words that in an every day context are perfectly harmless just meaning soiled like in that shirt needs washing.

      OTOH in the context of your Warsaw-experience the first comes to mind that it was a preferred adjective to attach to Jews and/or Slavs and/or those perceived as (“Untermenschen”)enemies in general and there the meaning extends to the whole person, his morals, his ethics, his everything.

      In the saying about the night-shirt it would be and I guess would have been even back then beschissen i.e. literally shit upon.

      In my family another saying referring to “beschissen” and/or “Dreck” was used frequently (remember Dreck in German most of the time refers to actual dirt on let’s say a floor)

      Das Leben ist ‘ne HühnerLeiter. Man kommt vor lauter Dreck nicht weiter.

      Life is a chicken ladder. One doesn’t get ahead because of all the say dirt think shit on it.

      (Do you think we have by now managed successfully to divert the dirt on this thread? ;-)

      • and for desert – I just saw this list of innocences in the good ol’ times

        Could it be that they gave eachother more credit for being able to get it even if it came with a twist?

        http://ricochet.com/main-feed/Great-Insults

        here’s an appetizer:

        A member of Parliament to Disraeli: “Sir, you will either die on the gallows or of some unspeakable disease.” “That depends, Sir,” said Disraeli, “whether I embrace your policies or your mistress.”

  104. Rubin Katz

    @ Silke

    Ich glaube, Reicher der Blutsauger, wirt nicht leicht verschwinden gehen.

    I love the wit of Oscar Wilde. A couple of them come to mind:
    On disembarking in New York, the customs officer asked him “Mr Wilde, do you have anything to declare?” To which the reply came “Only my genius, Sir!” and “Why resist temptation when you can so easily succumb to it!”
    ============================================
    As far as lance-corporal Richard is concerned, I now have the problem on how to spell his name in the book; as a first or family name. What do you suggest? The MS is now with the publishers who are copy-editing it, whatever that means. Then they will send it back to me for approval. I suppose they will change it into American-English, which I cannot really object to. The problem is that I have included in the text many foreign names, words and quotations in Polish, Yiddish, German, Russian and Ashkenazi-Hebrew. I did it to give it a more authentic ‘feel’ but whether it will work for American readers, I am yet to find out. It will form part of the Series “Jews of Poland”, edited by the eminent South African born Prof Antony Polonsky, of Brandeis University. With a Foreword by Staphen Smith OBE. Some here will have heard of him. He is the founder of Beth Shalom Holocaust Educational Centre= in Laxton, Newark (UK). Now, Exec Director, USC Shoah Foundation Inst. (Formerly the Spielberg Archives).

    • Rubin

      I know nothing about book editing, but as a reader I’d love your standing by Ryschard with maybe an askerisk or an insert telling me as I imagined it it to be spelt at the time. It would be, at least for the likes of me, give me so much info on the boy you were then and what you knew about the world. In fact it would make you become very much alive.

      And mind you, the German telephone directory having gotten amputated the way it did, there is still a possibility that somewhere there are one or two genuine Ryschards. After all rare or highly unusual isn’t the same as impossible.

  105. Rubin Katz

    In view of what you said about Goethe being prudish, I now wonder if it wasn’t Heine who came out with the line in question. I’m not a great one for Googling – I’m loathe to get rid of my old Encyclopaedia Britannica, though I no longer have the room for it in my bulging study, having moved from a large house into a flat.

    • I don’t think Somerset Maugham meant frigid to be synonym with prudish.

      I doubt whether Goethe was a prude but I am quite convinced that he was cold of heart or “not kind” Agatha Christie’s Poirot would have described it.

  106. Rubin Katz

    Just a thought. As a well-read person, I suppose you have read ‘The Pity Of It All’. I cannot recall the author just now, but he has an Israeli-sounding name, but he must be of German origin, as he has a feel for the subject. And also ‘The Wartime Diaries of XXXX Klemperer’ (can’t remember which Klemperer). I found them both extremely interesting.

    You grew up in post-war Germany, so you may be interested in the following. Though only a boy at the time, one had to grew up quickly in that sort of situation. We were curious to know what life was like for the Germans in the Heimat. We were starving, but we knew the Germans didn’t have it too good and that everything was Ersatz. We had jokes about it. An eminent scientist was entrusted with the task of turning Scheisse into butter. After some months he declared the experiment a complete success and that the finished product tastes good.The saying went: “Ach, das ist Pergamut (whatever that means) aber das schtingt auch gut! We hankered after a crust of bread but the Germans dreamt of a real cup of coffee, with the words “Ah! Ein echtes tassien cafe und denn kann ich sterben! Excuse my German and the spelling but that’s how it sounded to me at the time.

    • Rubin

      your German is perfectly up to it –

      I don’t quite believe the Scheisse-story though there seem to have been huge efforts at Ersatz in our chemical industry. But as a way to describe how others felt about us I think it deserves accolades.

      Anyway as best I know during the war itself it wasn’t so bad at all – Hitler was keen on not repeating WW1′s mistake where there must have been at least one really bad winter which entered common memory as the Steckrübenwinter http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steckrübenwinter

      Thus it is said that he did his best to strip/rob all conquered areas of food-stuff to keep the German Hausfrau happy and never mind if Slavs died. It seems that in Ukraine they were especially efficient.

      I have a cook-book from my mother that teaches cooking in times of scarce food supply (fat and sugar must have been really hard to get) but that was published in 1946. As to its tricks to save on fat and sugar it reads exactly like the latest slimming diet from a woman’s magazine.

      As to Pergamut I’ve tried the word in every variation I can think of, it doesn’t ring a bell – the only very vague hint I could find was in the German Wikipedia on Margarine. There it says that the name was derived from the Greek word for pearl, German Perle.

      I haven’t read the pity of it all – the author is originally from Vienna i.e. Austria which judging from other Austrians I’ve read has another look on the world than more protestant heavy areas i.e. more north of Germany.
      But Amon Elon (that’s the author’s name) has written a biography of the first Rothschild, the one from Frankfurt, and there I become eager.

      Klemperer’s diaries have been amply excerpted and talked about on German radio and I’ve bought them but must admit, that that is as far as I have gotten with them. By now I am even more eager to get around to reading this one by Klemperer since every other Israel-friendly one seems to know it by heart.
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LTI_–_Lingua_Tertii_Imperii