Amnesty International now censoring free speech and bloggers.

An example of the lies about Israel that Amnesty tells.

An example of the lies about Israel that Amnesty tells.

I was hoping to write about the Amnesty event Demolitions & Discrimination against Palestinian Citizens of Israel: The case of Al-Araqib but when I turned up last night I found I was on a banned list of six people because of someone’s comment on this blog.

Underneath my coverage of Amnesty’s event on 23rd May about Israel’s so-called control of the media Roberta Moore commented:

My two cents:

This conference should have been cancelled.
There are ways to force people to cancel such conferences. Threaten to bring the EDL. It works. For those that do not work, we infiltrate and disrupt. (Like I did with the One Society many cultures).

Our passive protests are NOT working guys! We need to change tactics. I know and I have just the thing to disrupt such conferences and ensure everyone gets out of the room ;)
No one gets hurt.

We must use a new approach.”

In hindsight I should have moderated this comment due to the threatening insinuation. I usually try to moderate comments like this, but some I don’t moderate because someone may have already criticised the commenter. In this case someone did just that by stating immediately:

“I agree that more active protests are desirable. But not from the EDL.

My hope was for more criticism of the EDL and its approach. But I do not believe that if the EDL was going to disrupt a future Amnesty event they would discuss it openly on my blog.

I think that most bloggers will accept it is quite a task moderating a blog and keeping an eye on every comment.

The last thing I would wish to do is to encourage any kind of disruption to an event.

But if you listen to the audio of my exchange with Tom Fyans, Amnesty’s Head of Campaigns, who was on the door to greet me, he was convinced that Roberta Moore and three of her associates, myself and Jonathan Hoffman were coming to disrupt the meeting.

Tom Fyans – Amnesty Head of Campaigns

Well, I have never disrupted an event before. And Roberta Moore and her three associates did not turn up last night.

As I made clear to Fyans I despise the EDL but he was trying to connect me and Jonathan to them on the basis that two or three of their members turned up to protest outside that same Amnesty event on 23rd May.

But how can I stop people turning up to protest?

I hope my being banned had nothing at all to do with my coverage of recent threatening behaviour and anti-Semitic ongoings at Amnesty including:

1. Middle East Monitor contributor Khalid Amayreh referring to Jews as “kike” on my blog Amnesty and Middle East Monitor’s Israel hatefest love-in while that event on 23rd May was presented by Middle East Monitor.

2. A lie that an Israeli soldier used a broken piece of glass to carve a Star of David into a Palestinian teenager’s forearm (the Star of David is too perfect and the plaster in the wrong place to cover the supposed wound). After that event Kristyan Benedict, also of Amnesty, physically threatened me. Amnesty never told me what happened to Benedict. Fyans refused to comment on it last night also.

Benedict is still working at Amnesty, while I cannot cover his ability to use Amnesty’s respected reputation to continuously attack Israel in a host of very unsavoury ways.

Meanwhile, the decision to ban me went straight to the top of Amnesty, it being rubber-stamped by Kate Allen, director of Amnesty International UK.

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167 responses to “Amnesty International now censoring free speech and bloggers.

  1. You don’t know what ‘censorship’ is. You were banned from a meeting, on slightly questionable grounds. That doesn’t constitute censorship though.

    Your link, anchored at ‘A lie’ links to yourself as the arbiter of truth regards that particular allegation. You didn’t prove anything though, although to be fair AI didn’t really either. Whenver Israel stands accused of something you refexively dismiss it. Or whitewash it in some way. Settlements? The territory is ‘disputed’, so there! (nene-nener!) Palestinian youth shot in the ‘buffer zone’ in Gaza? Hamas caused it! Etc, ad nauseam, at infinitum…

    • Gert – can you explain to me why those people who live in so called “settlements” on land that might become a Palestinian state administered by a Hamas/Fatah government will be banned from living in a country called Palestine just because they are Jewish? Is your not commenting on that reflexively dismissing the fact the the Hamas charter states that all Jews should be annihilated as stated by Mahmoud Al –Zahar the current “spiritual leader only in November 2010 on Al Aqsa TV”:
      “…we [Hamas] are not less honourable than the people who annihilated the Jews [the Nazis]….you [the Jewish people] have no place among the nations of the world…you are heading for annihilation…”
      (Al Aqsa TV, 5/11/2010 also see: http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/2676.htm).

      It probably would help you knowledge base if you learned a little before you accuse people of being reflexive in their response to events.

      • My comment is awaiting moderation – it came up instantly before any human could have had a chance to read it. Is this because certain words are keyed in to be moderated in case they offend certain people? Is freedom of speech being reflexively moderated?

      • It seems its been moderated but left in situ. That still leaves the curious haste in which it was tagged for moderation before anyone could have read it!

    • richardmillett

      I gave the guy that showed that photo at Amnesty my email address and asked him to send me proof saying that i would take it to the Israeli Embassy and have the soldier arrested if he could be traced. Guess what? I heard nothing, just like I heard nothing from you about Israelis allegedly shooting Palestinian youth in the buffer zone.

      • Richard
        There is no proof in replacement theory because replacement theory is based in replacing fact with fiction. This is how we got to the notion of a Palestinian people with a state that precedes the Jews and the Jewish state going back 4000 years. It is based on the whim of of Din Al Fitra in which Mohammed preceded both Moses and Christ!

  2. Like the Red Cross that never once insisted on seeing GIlad Shalit, the only political prisoner anywhere in the world to have been ignored in this way, I don’t recall Amnesty International either paying much attention to his human rights. They would much rather strip people like Richard of his democratic right to attend a public meeting in a free democratic country and write about what he witnessed. Don’t be too depressed Richard – it is an honour not to be one of a group that Protects Hamas rights Internationally!

  3. Smearing Richard as EDL because you are pro-Israel is simple prejudice, racism or antisemitism. Not something that should characterise AI. The use of the comment was purely pre-textual.

  4. That is antisemitism, pure and simple: smearing pro-Israeli Jews as racist or EDL because they are pro-Israeli.

  5. You were smeared for being pro-Israeli, the proximity of EDL members on one occasion being a pretext for banning you, as though that infects you with their views; as though sundry reactionaries never find proximity with AI.

    This is disgraceful, and the JC should take up the case, as should Jewish members of AI.

  6. This was Richard’s response to Moore’s suggestions of breaking the law:

    richardmillett | May 25, 2011 at 2:38 pm |
    Please can we not talk about possibly breaching the law or bypassing the police.

    How clearer can he get?

    Having said that, too many people (and one is too many) were speaking more than civilly with Moore, even praising her.

    The EDL are scum, as are Jews who express respect for them.

  7. richardmillett

    Thanks, Z. I forgot about that.

  8. “The EDL are scum, as are Jews who express respect for them.”

    Can you elaborate on this statement please?

  9. Jonathan Hoffman

    http://www.commentarymagazine.com/2011/10/18/amnesty-international-shalit/

    Inasmuch as Amnesty International bans pro-Israel advocates from entering their meetings – the latest to be denied entry, just last night, was Zionist Federation Vice Chair Jonathan Hoffman – it’s easy to see how they could cocoon themselves into producing mindless anti-Israel propaganda. And given that the organization pointedly never called for Gilad Shalit​’s release, it’s predictable they would do so in the context of Israel’s kidnapped and now released soldier.

  10. Why don’t we all write to Amnesty and ask them why they didn’t campaign for his release, or a visit from the Red Cross? Because that’s the core of the issue, isn’t it?

    • ‘Zkhara, the day may yet come when anyone who has expressed support for any Zionist organization will be refused admission to similar events. Who will you blame then?’

      Both sets of racists responsible.

  11. Hi Zkhara,

    If you are referring to me, I make no apology for speaking in a civilized manner to Roberta. I did so and was criticized doing so. I do not agree with her about everything and we argued, but in an intelligent orderly way. She has done nothing to earn my disrespect.

    Interestingly I spoke in a similar way to my good friend and rampant Antisemite Khalid Amayreh and was attacked for that too.
    https://richardmillett.wordpress.com/2011/04/29/amnesty-and-middle-east-monitor-israel-hatefest-love-in/#comment-7473

    I was polite and civil with my buddy and barmy Brighton anti-Israel blogger and Neo-Trotskyite Tony Greenstein and was again was again lambasted by an ignoramus.

    https://richardmillett.wordpress.com/2010/12/21/ahavas-female-staff-suffer-continued-bullying/#comment-5387

    Let a man apologize for anything but I shall never do so for respecting other human beings as creations of G-d Almighty. Neither has Richard anything to apologize for, and Amnesty’s disgraceful behavior says nothing about him and his excellent blog, but everything about the moral gutter in which this organization currently wallows.

    Zkhara, the day may yet come when anyone who has expressed support for any Zionist organization will be refused admission to similar events. Who will you blame then?

    • Love the moral gutter – well said!!

      • ‘I make no apology for speaking in a civilized manner to Roberta.’

        Expressing respect, gratitude or praise for the EDL is beyond +mere+ civility. It crosses a line. End of.

  12. Roberta Moore

    Richard, when I mentioned that there are ways to “disrupt” a conference and no one gets hurt, I meant this: (watch the video) amongst other tactics which I won’t discuss here obviously.

    http://edl-englishdefenceleague.blogspot.com/2011/02/one-society-many-cultures-except-jewish.html

    The video is here but the blog explains what happened (The explanation is not in the you tube video)
    http://www.youtube.com/user/EDLJewishDivision#p/u/5/GKQBpwHxyX4

    This was when I went to a UAF conference (back in December last year) from a group called One Society Many Cultures (Yes, Martin Smith was there). The conference was held in 2 floors so once one speaker finished we had to go upstairs for another and so on… I filmed a good 2 hours of it before I went upstairs to hear more diatribe from these loonies.
    When I got upstairs the theme was the EDL. I sat there for a long time before I requested to speak. I actually PAID for this conference and I put my hands up to speak.
    I instructed our cameraman to start filming (secretly) only when I started speaking. (before that, I was the one filming it)
    And the video you see is the result.

    They were lying and demonizing everyone in the EDL. I know what some of you think about the EDL and I also have my opinions, don’t think I don’t. But we cannot ever tarnish everyone with the same brush.
    Anyway, they started calling us all racist and fascist, etc.. and all I did was to put my hand up to speak and when allowed, I said I supported the EDL and had evidence in my hands to prove they were not racist.
    After that all hell broke loose. They tried to drag me out of the room by force, a Sikh guy grabbed my mobile phone when I tried to call the police, but I grabbed his arm and got it back (you see that in the video too).

    What you will not see is when I was by the door, after some of them pushing me from behind and some pulling me from the front. The woman who pulled my arm aggressively also tried to pull my legs and drag me out of the room.

    I did not fight back because we were filming it, but the bitch dug her nails into my skin and scratched me really hard.

    As you can see, I did not go to disrupt it, but to be allowed a platform to speak. I was denied that. So no wonder you will also be denied it as I was. no surprises there.

    Btw, I did not come last night because at the last minute I got an email saying I was banned and should not attend. I figured this would have happened to you and Jonathan as well, so I did not come.

    • Roberta
      Thanks for sharing your moment with us. I too suffered such a moment at a meeting I attended. A half qualified Benedictine pastor came to London to give a talk at the Kabbala Centre about the 3 Monotheistic faiths – Judaism, Islam and Christianity. He spoke about he beauty of Christianity and Islam, not saying much about Judaism. At question time I asked him to explain abrogation in Islam to the audience. He flushed with a spark of understanding in his eyes, but he turned the table on to me by playing dumb. Finally I asked if he would like me to explain since he seemed shy to approach the subject. When I explained I was booed and slow hand-clapped and shouted at as though I had written the book myself!!

      I don’t like to pass judgement on anyone or any organisation. However, in forming my opinions I do take time to read source material and by talking to people, not banning them as were Richard and Jonathan.

      I am proud to say that am a Jewish nationalist – a Zionist – I believe in the right of a national people to their nation state. My understanding is that the EDL believe that as well – they believe in the right of the English to defend who they are. They see a culture arriving here who is not joining in English society as did the Jews when the Nazis backed by the pre-Palestinians attempted genocide, but rather this group is seeking to change the very Englishness of England. They find areas of their homeland in which they are threatened – try Tower Hamlets in London where gays are banned, certain dress codes are imposed and notices in public places in this area contradicting English law are not removed by the police who are paid to uphold English law. Surely anybody has a right to demonstrate in such an area which is after all public land in England. If people feel provoked they should deal with it and not accuse others.

      I have met a few of the EDL members and personally have always found them friendly and diverse – from many ethnic backgrounds, all sorts of sexuality and educational achievements. I have heard Tommy Robison speak and he speaks sense. Unlike Mahmoud Al –Zahar the current “spiritual” leader of Hamas or Mahmoud Abbas the now unelected leader of the Palestinian Authority (he failed to called elections when his term was up and simply continues to rule like a despot), Tommy Robinson has never to my knowledge called for the death of an entire nation – genocide, neither has he stated that a certain national people cannot live in England. Yet he would not be welcomed at the UN as was Abbas (and his backer from Iran) let alone be allowed to apply for recognition of a state he concocts.

      If we as Jews believe in the rights of man, then we cannot simply take on board demonisation of a group – we owe it to ourselves to investigate and find out. After all, we are all on this blog because of the demonisation of Israel and Jews. Why do we think those same people are not doing the same thing to the EDL as they are doing to people like Richard, Jonathan amongst others?

      • Roberta Moore

        Sharon,

        Exactly!!! Absolutely! You said everything I wanted people to know! Thank you!
        The same people who demonize us also demonize the Jews, and others.
        The EDL are fighting for their country just like we Jews fought for Israel and are still fighting. I am also a Zionist and always will be. The EDL as a group also believes in the rights of Jews to live freely in their own land. Of course, there are bad elements inside, just like there are bad elements inside many other groups but that is a tiny minority and they don’t represent the majority of the people in the group.

        Tommy is a great guy. He has learned so much in these last few months and I am proud of him. For an Englishman to learn as much as he has about Zionism, Israel and Palestine issues, is truly commendable and a huge feat, since many of our own don’t even bother!

        I left the EDL for personal reasons but I still support their cause. I think they have guts to do what they do, to put themselves in such danger just to get their message across. And in reality you need to be tough even mentally tough to do such thing. Those who criticise them do not have this courage, hence the criticism.

        When have we seen Jews protesting in Tower Hamlets against forced closures of their Synagogues or anti-Semitic attacks? NEVER!! They simply do not have the guts to do so. And this is very frustrating because the Jews I grew up with in my country were always very tough and very courageous, not to mention Zionists! What’s happening to the Jews in Britain? Have they all lost their minds?

        Here we have an alien culture and cult pretending to be a religion, that is constantly calling for the death of Jews and non-Muslims, and yet we do NOTHING? We sit and watch? I am glad the EDL guys do not sit and watch. We should learn from them and do the same.
        Even if people do not want to join them, at least join the cause, join the effort to eradicate this alien and evil cult and stop them from preaching hatred in our streets.

        What gets on my nerves is that the leftists who support this delusional “multiculturalism” which in reality is just imposing ISLAM and denigrating every other culture, know NOTHING about Islam and do not even bother learning. I hate to see Jews asking me stupid questions and calling us Islamophobes. Such stupidity is hard for me to tolerate.

        A phobia is an IRRATIONAL fear of something. Fearing Islam or even hating it is NOT irrational, it is very very rational when you know Islam and what its ideology is. Only a fool or a criminal would support such evil ideology.

  13. Roberta Moore

    Richard,

    Just wanted to comment on a few things as well. You said this:

    [My hope was for more criticism of the EDL and its approach.]

    At that time it was not the EDL speaking, but me, Roberta. There are thousands of people in the EDL and they not all think the same. But if you wish to criticise the EDL’s approach, by all means do so, but kindly ensure that:

    1) You state what particular approach you are citicising
    2) Provide an alternative that works.

    You also said this:

    [The last thing I would wish to do is to encourage any kind of disruption to an event.]

    Fine. Although I must tell you that a lot of people I know within the community (even before I joined the EDL) told me that you and a few others from the ZF are actually very disruptive people. So kind of silly criticising “disruptive” behaviour if you guys also have your moments, don’t you think? I think you should ditch the political correctness BS and be fair and honest.

    Conferences like those should not happen. They should not be allowed to spew hate and anti-Semitism or brainwash people in such manner. So what will you do? Just sit down and just watch?
    Would you stand and watch if someone is being attacked? Or if a woman is being raped? I see the action in the same light. People are either brave or cowards. They either sit and do nothing or they stand and do something.

    If you won’t encourage “disruption” whatever this disruption means, then WHAT will you encourage?

    • richardmillett

      Well I’m not sure how I can be disruptive by holding up a camera and a recorder. I have never disrupted an event apart from doing that and if people have nothing to hide they shouldn’t be concerned by that. I don’t like the edl ideology of claiming an islamisation of the uk and europe and its approach of going to predominantly muslim populated areas and near to mosques to march and protest. There are good and clever people getting to grips with the anti semitism in this country, which is not being countered by mainstream organisations.
      Sent from my BlackBerry® wireless device

      • Richard
        I remember Henryk M. Broder, the Achse des Guten guy, tried to take a photograph of that false or fake Neturai Karta guy in Vienna. One of those who attended that conference in Teheran where they kissed A’jad.

        He called the police, the Neturei guy, and I think the police sided with him.

  14. This action of Amnesty’s has hit the US freedom of speech fundamentalism button really hard.

    Richard and Jonathan deserve medals and ribbons galore for making this public – it is likely to hit Amnesty – at least in the US – much worse than lots of their other shenanigans do.

    Keep spreading it. Resurrect it – again and again and again at every occasion.

    http://elderofziyon.blogspot.com/2011/10/amnesty-international-becomes-even-more.html

    A pity that Roberta missed out on it – hopefully she gets her ban at another occasion.

  15. Roberta Moore

    Richard,

    That’s just the thing. You may not think you are disruptive, but others do. Just like I did not think I was being disruptive at that conference and if you look at the video you will see that I wasn’t. But the UAF thought I was and tried to remove me by force.
    Some people told me that you and Jonathan had been removed from conferences as well for being disruptive. Please note that I am not criticising you or even judging you. It’s good to disrupt things like these anyway, so I am not complaining. In fact kuddos to those who do disrupt these hate filled conferences!

    [I don’t like the edl ideology of claiming an islamisation of the uk and europe and its approach of going to predominantly muslim populated areas and near to mosques to march and protest. ]

    Well Richard, England and Europe ARE being Islamized, whether you see it or not. This is a FACT that cannot be refuted. Now, you need to put yourself in the places of the EDL guys. This is THEIR country. They have lived here all their lives and they have seen the erosion of their society and their ways of life, before their very eyes. Not only that but they are having to TOLERATE a totally alien culture and all the crimes that come with it.

    Do you seriously blame them??

    And these “Muslim” areas are ghettos. Our government is deliberately placing huge quantities of Muslims in what was predominantly WHITE and also JEWISH areas. What do you say about that?
    Why should there be a “predominant Muslim” area in this country? Why can’t they assimilate as we have done and still practice their “faith” whatever you call it?

    You do not seem to have any idea of the true ideology of Islam or what it truly means or represent to the people in this country. Perhaps you should read some History and see what has been happening to all the once great civilizations when Islam came to conquer them. In those days it was by the sword. Now it’s by demoraphics and they will use OUR LAWS to defeat us. Their demographics are increasing in a massive rate and even though they are against “democracy” they will use democracy to vote themselves in and eventually apply Sharia law.
    This will happen if nothing is done. And I do hope you can see where I am getting at.

    [There are good and clever people getting to grips with the anti semitism in this country, which is not being countered by mainstream organisations.]

    There has always been anti-Semitism in the world. But now we have a new breed of it. Islamo-Nazism. Where and who are these “good and clever” people? And what are they doing about it?
    Addressing anti-Semitism is NOT enough. We must address also the fact that Islam is against ANYONE and EVERYONE, not only Jews.
    We got to stop being selfish. Islam is against the Kuffar and we are all the kuffar, Jews, Hindus, Christians, Catholics, Pagans, Yezids, Zoroastrians, you name it.

    If you are protesting against a particular issue what better place to do it if not in front of their headquarters? Why do you object to the EDL protesting in THEIR OWN STREETS (Tower Hamlets for example)?

  16. My money is on the bds fascists monitoring your blog in order to find a hint of a reason to prevent you attending the meeting and therefore shutting down any right of reply .I’m sure Amnesty didn’t need much persuading . One thing is for certain ,both Richard and Jonathan are a thorn in the side of these Israel hating zealots . Without doubt , it must be most uncomfortable knowing your every word and image is being accurately and painstakingly recorded and blogged . Most of those attending these meetings have a visceral hatred of Israel and enjoy the opportunity of an unencumbered rant . It’s no wonder they seek to ban our intrepid reporters . They simply need a clear field in order to indulge their poison .

  17. Look at these pictures and marvel at how “they” are proud to present themselves to the world.

    It is all fine and good to stand up for the “all of them aren’t like this” mantra (and given past acquaintances I sure would like that) but it seems that those who aren’t like this are as powerless to stop those who are like this as “we” seem to be. And somehow I think that each time we say they are only a small minority we weaken the possible partisanship from those who really “aren’t like this”.

    http://elderofziyon.blogspot.com/2011/10/one-reason-shalit-looked-so-ill-at-ease.html

  18. Roberta Moore

    Sharon,

    Interesting to know you are into Kabbalah. I have started learning occultist Kabbalah since I was 5 years old, amongst other things. And I am glad to know you decided to debate with the ignorant one. I am just a bit worried that a Benedictine came to a Kabbalah centre to preach crap and did not give credit to Judaism on this one. Islam has no place in Kabbalah or in any other religion. Besides, it is a MYTH to use the terminology “Abrahamic faith” and include all 3 in it. A lie and a myth. Anyone who has studied Ancient religions and History will laugh at this idiocy. It’s a con to make others think that Christians, Jews and Muslims all pray to the same G-d and bla bla bla. Absolute rubbish.

    • Roberta
      I am not into Kabbalah, but know a lot of those who attend the Centre in London. For me my Judaism is Kabbalistic – it was how I was brought up – how my parents raised me, it is an intrinsic part of me. I also study yoga and that has more of a link to Judaism than Islam – I agree with you re Islam – it is a political ideology and not a religion and certainly not he religion of peace some would like it to be.

  19. Roberta Moore

    Richard,

    You answered only one of my questions. The first one. Can you answer the second one?
    2) Provide an alternative that works.

    Also I would like to have your comments on my post above where I mentioned the Islamization of Tower Hamlets, and the subtle exodus of the Jews from these areas. Do you know who the Mayor of Tower Hamlets is and how he got to that position?

    These are things we should all start learning and fast. Not to mention pay attention at the “Halal” markings in our supermarkets. The other day I saw an Israeli company that sells Aubergine with Mayonnaise (Not Yarden) that is now doing HALAL products to appease the Islamo fascist community.
    Here is the proof. I took this photo and will no longer buy from them.

    https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=253422938002958&set=a.220372061308046.64410.220366781308574&type=3&theater

    • richardmillett

      Jews are always on the move. We also congregate in certain areas for our own convenience.
      Many Muslims are non-political so why target them? Muslims are maybe 6% of the population. In Israel they are 15% but you don’t feel any kind of islamisation when you are there. The EDL approach, inlcuding using the Israeli flag as its lead symbol, is not one of them.

      • Roberta Moore

        Richard,

        Yes, Jews are always on the move. This is not the issue here. We do not go around imposing our religion on others or threatening to kill them if they do not convert. Or worse, making them convert and threatening to kill them when they leave Judaism. We congregate in certain areas but we do not take over them. We do not force the non-Jews of that area to wear frum clothes. We do not force them to eat Kosher food.

        We are not targeting Muslims as individuals, we are targeting Islam as an ideology. Stop trying to think in matters of “Muslims being the new Jews”, this is another idiotic rhetoric created by our enemies. Muslims might be 6% of the population (I believe it is higher than that though) but they are a vociferous and aggressive lot. Can you now imagine when they become 15% of the population??

        In Israel you don’t feel Islamization because Israel is not being Islamized. No one in Israel is being sold Halal products hidden in the shelves, no one is forced to wear burkas and Jews have a very strong identity there. They don’t have it here though.

        You don’t seem to understand the basics of it all. Halal food is being forced down our throats here. Most products are not marked. Why is Halal so predominant? Halal is a con. It’s a way devised by the Muslim Brotherhood to ensure Muslims have lots of jobs in Europe. All companies are now going Halal because in this manner they can satisfy the demands and save some cash. A producer saves money by going totally Halal rather than having 2 different areas for production. And WHO benefits from the Halal certificates issued? Do you know? Where does that money go? Do you know? Try TERRORISM for one. A huge percentage of the monies paid to obtain Halal certificates go also to fund all sorts of companies to boycott and attack Israel.

        Please don’t even tell me you didn’t know that.

        As you can see, our quarrel is NOT with individual Muslims. I had a Muslim boyfriend for 4 years. He wasn’t religious but a Muslim nevertheless. So I am not a bigot.

        The EDL started well and most people in that group genuinely support Israel. In fact they support Israel more than many of you! They have managed to learn the Israel x Palestine issue more than most of the Jews I know. And I bet any money they can debate better than many of you with those idiots from the PSC. Know why? Because they will not cower before political correctness like many of you do. They won’t be afraid to use the words ISLAM or MUSLIM like many of you do.

        I am Jewish and a Zionist. We have loads of Jews like me in the EDL. Why shouldn’t we hold the Israeli flag to show our support? I think we have more right than many of you, who hold the Israeli flag in demos but at the same time criticise the Jews who fight against Islam.

        Some EDL guys have a lot more right to hold that flag than many Jews I know.

        I have no intention of appeasing people. I will treat a Muslim in the same way I treat a Jew, a Hindu, a Christian or an Atheist.. but I will NOT tolerate proselytising just like I will not tolerate them trying to fool me with lies about their religion/cult, when I know better. I studied it so I know.

        Have you studied Islam?
        Have you read the Qu’ran, the Hadiths and the Tafseer?
        Are you familiar with the History of Islam and Muhammad?

        Even most Muslims are not. Most Muslims cannot even speak Arabic. Do you really think they know what they are reading?

      • Richard
        Why are Jews always on the move? Does it not disturb you that most Jews don’t go back 3 generations in one place? And this did not start with the jet airliner as you know.

        Tower Hamlets is not simply a place where Muslims congregate – it is intimidating and it runs like a mini Islamic state that does not welcome outsiders. This is not comparable to the areas like Wood Green that is known for its Greek community or North London known for its Jewish community. There is no equivalence.

      • Richard, why don’t you just delete and ban this creature? It’s the simplest solution. It’s not fair that Jews have to be squeaky clean, but it is reality.

        Moore is a liability. Just get rid of her.

  20. It is a great shame that Amnesty seems to be basing it’s ” information ” on a fabricated pack-of-lies which are being spread by the BDS extremists – lies which have been refuted time & time again by all of us .
    Amnesty seem to have no concern about extremists who have orchestrated a campaign of bullying & intimidation against Israeli shops & products in London .
    Shame On You Amnesty !

    • Roberta Moore

      BDS are not extremists. They are brainwashed people made up of Jewish and non-Jewish National Socialists and Communists who are also anti-Zionist.
      And whether we like it or not, ISLAM plays a HUGE part in this brainwashing. Most of these people are PRO-ISLAM.
      And there is no way in hell that anyone can refute this. Might as well accept it and DEAL with the problem instead of whining and complaining.

  21. Zkharya,

    “You have given a pretext for such as Richard and Jonathan to be banned.
    You have given antisemitism a pretext to flourish.

    You are an enemy of the Jewish people, and you should be treated as such, along with all your kind.” – Zkharya

    I’m reminded of a story of two Jews put up against a wall by Jew-haters, blind-folded and told that they are about to be shot. One of them decides to make a stand and complains that the blindfold is too tight. “Be quiet,” whispers his friend, “Don’t make trouble!”

    I rarely use harsh language, but yours is as reprehensible a comment as I have read on the pages of this excellent blog. If you disagree with Roberta’s views, say so and explain why. If you disagree with her actions, say which ones and suggest a more effectual alternative. Instead you blame her for giving an anti-Semitic organization a “pretext” to commit immoral actions.
    Regarding her giving anti-Semitism a “pretext to flourish”- I have no idea what your native language is but, what does that mean? What is a pretext to flourish?

    Roberta is not an enemy of the Jewish People; she is our sister and the daughter of our fathers Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. She is not an enemy of the Jewish people, but a proud Jewess who devotes her waking hours to the protection of the Children of Israel and has done so ever since serving in the IDF. You may not agree with the way she does so, but that does not make her into your enemy and you certainly have not been appointed by the Jewish People to represent us and choose our foes.

    There are enough people in this world who see themselves as the enemies of the State of Israel and the People of Israel. Let’s not go adding each other to that terrible list.

    • Roberta Moore

      Thank you Daniel! :) xx
      נשיקות מטוקות

    • Well said Daniel – I started writing to him but deleted as it seems a waste of time -silly man

    • ‘Roberta is not an enemy of the Jewish People’

      She is, and so are you.

      • I am in a state of shock!
        I have known Daniel for as long as I can remember and I honestly had no idea that he was an “enemy of the Jewish people”
        I watched him at the age of eighteen leave his family in England and come to live in Israel where he tirelessly toiled the land for twelve hard months and I had no idea that lurking beneath the surface was an ” enemy of the Jewish people”
        I saw him join an elite fighting unit in the army where he excelled and I am sure that noe of his officers had any idea that he was in fact an “enemy of the Jewish people”
        I looked on as he spent three years studying education in the Hebrew university and when he received his degree he immediately went on to teach our youth and I really didn’t know.
        I saw him marry the voluptuous Roxi (a success story in her own right) and I am sure that none of the guests nor the rabbi had the faintest idea.
        I watched from afar as he and Roxi brought up their four delightful children in the Daniel and Roxi tradition of religious Zionism a love for all Jews and a respect for all people and it never once crossed my mind.
        I (obviously mistakenly) held the belief that our enemies where Khaled Meshaal, Bashar Al-Assad, Ahmedenejad and their mates and in the past Hitler Amelek and many others, when it was really anybody who doesn’t agree with Zkhariya.

        Zkahriya.
        I am sad to say that I think I know where you are coming from.
        I have looked at your comments .
        Comments like:
        “You have given antisemitism a pretext to flourish.”
        “You are an enemy of the Jewish people, and you should be treated as such, along with all your kind
         You have given a pretext for such as Richard and Jonathan to be banned.”
        “You have given antisemitism a pretext to flourish.”

         “Richard, why don’t you just delete and ban this creature? It’s the simplest solution. It’s not fair that Jews have to be squeaky clean, but it is reality”.
        You are simply terrified of your non Jewish neighbours.
        ” It’s not fair that Jews have to be squeaky clean, but it is reality”
        Is the real give away.
        While Daniel ran off to fight for his people at age 18 you are cowering in a corner, yet he is an “enemy of the Jewish people”
        You poor, poor sod.
        Instead of respecting the Jews who live as real Jews you have become a Jealous coward.
        Why don’t you take it up with the Jewish Chronice?

    • ‘You may not agree with the way she does so, but that does not make her into your enemy’

      No, her racism and threats of violence or disruption, the repercussion of which is that those who can speak for Israel reasonably and rationally are excluded or silenced, make her so.

      • The only person who is being insulting and rude is you Zkharya. The only one asking to get rid of someone is you. The Nazis got rid of people. The Palestinians and their terrorist organisation get rid of people. Jews do not get rid of people. And so if you don’t like what people say or write don’t read or listen to them. Stop stamping your feet like a recalcitrant child. If nobody listens to you it is not someone else’s fault – simply look to yourself for the solution!

      • this argument that if only Jews would behave well and reasonable and perfect all the time things would be wonderful is unbearable nonsense as anyone who has ever been singled out for ordinary everyday mobbing could easily prove.

        BTW whenever mobbing broke out in offices I worked at the record of the Robertas wasn’t half bad provided they took the side of the mobbed ones.

        They were the ones who’d still join the outcasts for a cup of coffee and a chat and thus put at least the meek ones to shame.

  22. מתוקות
    And you’d better hope his wife doesn’t see them!

  23. She did!
    We were watching Srugim (the crocheted ones) on the TV through my computer. Oh no, what shall I do?

  24. EDL-ERS Are scumbags. They fight against genital mutilation of children, stoning of women, hanging of gays, and, oh! I nearly forgot, anti-semitism. Yes I am fkn angry, reading shit about the EDL.

    • Roberta Moore

      Well said Tony! :)
      If fighting against the evils in the world is being a racist or a scumbag, then obviously those who agree with these evils are truly very nice people indeed.
      The EDL stands against Sharia law, against Islamization and for Israel. Truly a bunch of scumbags.. ;)

  25. Pingback: Amnesty International Is A Joke » Bydio

  26. Roberta Moore

    zkharya,

    [Stupid, racist. A liability to Jews everywhere, who should be dispensed with.]

    Fortunately I am not as STUPID as you. After all it’s YOU who cannot see the enemy staring at you in the face. Stupid and blind I would say. Besides, perhaps you would like to debate with me on this “stupid” issue and I am sure I can easily trash any garbage you can come up with, after all I have years of experience in dealing with the likes of DHIMMIS, which seems to be your case.

    If fighting for Jews is a liability then you are a KAPO. And I for one could do with sending you to live in Gaza. Perhaps we could have exchanged you for Gilad Shalit. ;)

    As for RACIST, you are actually more stupid than I gave you credit for. Islam is not a race, neither are Muslims. So unless you can debate on a more intellectual level with words that actually make sense, I suggest you return to your insignificance.

  27. Roberta Moore

    zkharya

    [No, her racism and threats of violence or disruption, the repercussion of which is that those who can speak for Israel reasonably and rationally are excluded or silenced, make her so.]

    Prove I am racist. Failure to do so will expose your true KAPO agenda.

    According to you it seems that “speaking reasonable and rationally” about Israel is to DEMONIZE Israel. Please, go make friends with Neturei Karta.
    As far as I can see no one is excluding or silencing you, but on the other hand YOU want others to silence ME.
    When you do not give a platform for someone to speak you are a fascist.

    So Zkhraya, let’s see you speak reasonably and rationally about Israel and the issue at hand. Do you DENY that Islam is an evil cult? If so why? I want to know the level of education you have in this subject, although I already know you have NONE.

    Do you deny that Muslims preach the death of Jews in their countries?

    So, since I have done none of this, mind showing us all here how exactly I am an enemy to the Jews?

    • Roberta
      I expect you know how much I like you – I just wish you’d manage to be able to make do without “Kapo”. To start with it is historically inaccurate.

      How about appeaser? How about prostrator, in case that is English?

      Since traitor doesn’t seem to appeal to you, how about deserter or AWOL-ist?

      • Roberta Moore

        Silke darling,

        Zkharya is not JUST a prostrator, or just a deserter. His behaviour is the behaviour of a traitor, a true KAPO.
        I bet any money that this Zkhraya is one of those Communists that hang around with the crowd of Searchlight.

        Here is what wikipedia says about Kapos:

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kapo_(concentration_camp)

        I was particularly interested in this part:

        ["Vicenzo and Luigi Pappalettera wrote in their book The Brutes Have the Floor that, every time a new transport of detainees arrived at Mauthausen, Kapo August Adam picked out the professors, lawyers, priests and magistrates and cynically asked them: "Are you a lawyer? A professor? Good! Do you see this green triangle? This means I am a killer. I have five convictions on my record: one for manslaughter and four for robbery. Well, here I am in command. The world has turned upside down, did you get that? Do you need a dolmetscher, an interpreter? Here it is!" And he was pointing to his bat, after which he struck. When he was satisfied, he formed a Scheisskompanie with those selected and sent them to clean the latrines"]

        From this I can see some Kapos actually ENJOYED making Jews suffer. They were not “forced”.

      • Roberta
        you will never get me to pass judgment on the behaviour of those who had to function as camp-inmates.

        As to the specific Kapo you quote – sending them to a cleaning unit instead of straight on to the “showers” may actually have increased their chance of survival.

        I’d also guess that under camp conditions cleaning the sh*t houses was a better choice than working in other venues.

        The camps were not only an upside down world and upside down worlds tend to make people lose their mind, get at least borderline insane. But they were also a world that gave people powers beyond what they were qualified to handle.

        Come to think of it – shouldn’t the participants in the Stanford experiment have been able to handle the power given to them? They were not.

        And with no sanctions threatening them the ones in the Milgram experiment obeyed to what they perceived as power aka a white coat.

        I know the critics of both experiment but the results pander out too well with what I have witnessed in “normal” life. Therefore I put trust in them and therefore feel justified that I will not use any behaviour of camp-inmates as metaphors.

  28. To understand the difference between us and them, you just need to observe the emaciated Shalit, on the one hand, and all those fat murderous c*nts on the other.

    • Yes the early IDF-videos tell a story that should be remembered and if I assume that it was a deliberate decision of them to free Gilad in the shape he is in (apparently unsure whether his legs are able to support him) and if I assume that it was a smart decision given their audience then I can imagine loads and loads of muslims gloating over those videos.

      Hopefully though they serve as a reminder to Westerners who is the real David in that part of the globe.

  29. Hi zkharya,

    So there it is. In reply to my writing, “Roberta is not an enemy of the Jewish People’” you reply, “She is, and so are you”. I guess that’s about it. You don’t know me or anything about my life, but have decided that I must be “an enemy of the Jewish People” because I afforded respect to a fellow Jew.

    I have consistently insisted that Roberta not call other Jews Kapo. I believe the whole historical subject to be very problematic and unconnected to the realities of 2011. However, I have to tell you Zkhara that you are not making my life any easier. How am I supposed to defend someone who seems to feel that he is entitled to declare anyone with whom he does not agree to be an enemy the Jewish People?

    You are either tremendously stupid or extremely ignorant, or both. You know nothing about me or Roberta and I suspect that, fortunately for the IDF, you know very little about our enemies either. Few men who have worn a uniform or held a gun or looked our real enemies in their eyes would talk in such a way about other Jews. You are not my enemy, but my brother and I love you, but as your brother, who loves you, I tell you that you are a disgrace. I have neither given up on you as a human being or as a Jew, however, it seems wholly futile to try and engage you in intelligent discussion. I wish you all the best.

    Hi Mike,

    And what a day it was. A lot of nonsense was spoken including the absurd contention that releasing 1,000 terrorists for one Israeli soldier is a sign of our strength. It was not. It was a sign of our weakness.

    But what a magnificent weakness! I opposed the deal, but who was not moved to see thousands of Israelis celebrating the release of someone they’ve never known and never will? I believe that deep down our joy was not for Gilad or the Shalit family, but the realization that we all belong to such a wonderful family. So many brothers and sisters, so many mothers and fathers! How wonderful is it to belong to the family of Israel? Is there another country? is there another nation whose Prime Minister and Chief of Staff would fly all that way just to hug one soldier?

    Like you, I suspect that the release of 1,000 terrorists will have terrible repercussions, but last Shabbat we read that there is a time to cry and a time to laugh. Perhaps today is a time for both.

    Let us be strong!

    • apparently the ratio of 1000 to 1 or close thereto is Israel’s average over time.

      He notes that since the 1950s, Israel has released 13,509 prisoners for 16 soldiers.

      http://yaacovlozowick.wordpress.com/2011/10/18/a-conflict-of-visions/

    • Very moving Daniel. Who is not both sad and happy. Sad at the sight of the poor soldier so traumatised so gaunt yet happy he had the strength an decorum to survive 5 years of he’ll and yet arrive with his head held high. No fists in the air, no two fingers to the world. Just a quiet magnificent human being who has obviously been defiled by his revolting captors.

      Yes we need to laugh and cry and also hope that there will not be another kidnap and a further 1000 criminals set free, gloating in the glory of their fat well fed bellies, evidence that Israelnindeed stands out amongst nations.

      Proud? You bet we all are!!

    • ‘You don’t know me or anything about my life, but have decided that I must be “an enemy of the Jewish People” because I afforded respect to a fellow Jew.’

      No,because you did not acknowledge that Moore, qua being a supporter and/sympathiser with the EDL herself constitutes a liability, a threat or danger to other Jews. Which she does. End of. Look: Richard has no sympathy with her, but the horrid little creature has got him banned. That doesn’t excuse Amnesty, but anyone who lives in the real world knows that there is no such thing as perfect justice. Which is why you have behave as best you can. That is just living in society, in a polis or city state like the UK. Moore is an ignorant, bigoted little savage. There should be no place for such as her in civilised society. She should be shunned.

      I think that inability to acknowledge how dangerous Jewish sympathy for the EDL is for other Jews constitutes a handicap, potentially a dangerous one.

      There are two ways to address a threat, both of which may be necessary. One is to change one’s external situation, which may be impossible. The other is to change one’s internal situation, to change oneself, which is always possible. That has to so with personal ethics and morality, ‘putting one’s own house in order’.

      • Sorry, I sometimes use my paternal name, Conchovor.

      • This week I relistened to BBC Witness on the Battle of Cable Street which apparently put an end to Mosley’s doings.

        I seemed to me that those who did the fighting weren’t at all choosy as to who were their allies and they certainly didn’t check so no ignorant bigoted little or even big savages were amongst them.

        And yes “even a Jew” has the right to be an” ignorant, bigoted little savage” exactly like all the rest of us do, come to think of it, a Jew has that right more than anybody else.

        http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/p00b0lg0/Witness_The_Battle_of_Cable_Street/

  30. Daniel,

    I truly respect your restraint when it comes to KAPOS like Zkhraya.
    This is why I cannot stop calling these demented people KAPOS, because this is what they are.
    I think that the Kapos of the old days should be called Dhimmis, since they were forced to do what they did. But the ones now have no excuse, they are truly traitors to the Jewish people, so they deserve the label.

    • Half an hour before Simchat Torah, we’re at Maale Ha’Hamisha. Thankfully, nobody here knows that I’m an enemy of the Jewish People.

      Michael,

      Thanks for the exaggerations. You forgot to mention my greatest achievement friends like you.

      Roberta,

      Don’t judge zkhraya too harshly. He is a Jew as well and one of our brothers. I suspect that he hasn’t had many of the educational privileges that others have had, and perhaps it’s for that reason that he considers everything that moves and that he can’t understand to be an “enemy of the Jewish People”, but he is Am Yisrael too and like I told you once that’s all we’ve got.

      There are many Michael Goldmans and many Richard Milletts too (though never enough) but there are zkhrayas as well and we are a small nation still recovering from Hitlerism, and we need them all. We don’t despair of anyone!

      Richard and Jonathan,,

      Next time you talk to Amnesty International,tell them from me that you’re both far too good for them. We are all very proud of you both.

      Chag sameach

      • Roberta Moore

        Daniel,

        We can do without the Zkhryas of this world. Brother or no brother. I would not trust him with a gun least he turns it at me. I cannot work with people I do not trust. Perhaps one day when he gets his head out of his dhimmi ass and learn the facts and the truth, I may consider.
        I tell you what we need, we need more people like Kahane and Chaim ben Pesach. This is what we truly need right now!

        Chag sameach!

      • richardmillett

        Please no more personal attacks.

      • ‘I would not trust him with a gun least he turns it at me.’

        In the case of your friends who just attacked an Islamic stall, very likely. It would be a mitzvah.

        Before the Hagannah could properly defend Palestinian Jews, it had to conduct The Saison against the Irgun. I think Jewish EDL supporters to be in an analogous category.

      • just as a reminder for those who like their histories clear cut and especially those who apparently claim to know what would have happened had the Irgun never existed.

        The Saison officially ended when the Haganah, Irgun and the Lehi formed the Jewish Resistance Movement, in 1945. Within this new framework, the three groups had different functions, which served to drive the British out of Palestine and create a Jewish state.

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haganah#Jewish_Resistance_Movement

  31. http://creepingsharia.wordpress.com/2011/10/18/soros-helping-islam-look-less-radical/

    Here we have another KAPO. George Soros trying to make Islam look less radical. My question is: What’s in it for Jews who betray their own?

    “Appeasement is like feeding a crocodile, while expecting it to eat you last”.

  32. Roberta and Jon,
    These people at Amnesty do not know what they werer missing -I was there and the whole evening was devoted to stories about silly Bedouin who thought that they had a right to land in the Negev when there are plenty of newly-arrived immigrants from Russia and South Africa who need the land much more.

    • richardmillett

      Wow, well done for getting into a meeting where Amnesty now chooses who goes in and who doesn’t without valid reason. You are one of the specially chosen ones; one of Amnesty’s favoured few. You must be very proud as the class pet.

    • Inkyflag,

      My mistake was to use my real name on the registration. Next time I will not and I will go in. What else did they talk about? I did imagine that I wasn’t going to be missing anything….

    • Yes silly old you not understanding how it all works – I guess if Amnesty welcomed you then you must be one of their fold – they are too afraid for outsiders to witness them enacting their logo: Giving Amnesty to Hamas Rights Internationally.

  33. Roberta Moore

    1,027 for 1 – It means their life is worth 70 grams of an Israeli soldier.

    • alas I doubt Gilad Shalit weighed as much upon his return.

      • Roberta Moore

        Poor boy!! Despite all my complaints and criticisms surrounding the Gilad deal, I am enormously pleased that he is finally home, baruch ha’shem!!

  34. Roberta Moore

    Silke,

    [Roberta
    you will never get me to pass judgment on the behaviour of those who had to function as camp-inmates.]

    No judgement needed, dear Silke. :) I am not judging them either, I am making comments on my observations of the situation.

    [As to the specific Kapo you quote – sending them to a cleaning unit instead of straight on to the “showers” may actually have increased their chance of survival.]

    Perhaps, but that is another area altogether, like “Divine Providence”. What that Kapo was actually doing and saying did not come across as a kind thing to me, nor as an intention of saving those poor men’s lives. In fact it sounded quite perverse.

    [I’d also guess that under camp conditions cleaning the sh*t houses was a better choice than working in other venues.]

    Oh I am sure the Oberkapos enjoyed their jobs. The one above did.

    [The camps were not only an upside down world and upside down worlds tend to make people lose their mind, get at least borderline insane. But they were also a world that gave people powers beyond what they were qualified to handle.]

    I would have been happy just taking some Cyanide, least I betray even one of my own.

  35. attilathecricketer

    As you know I am a member of Amnesty. I might agree with banning some of your colleagues – Mr Hoffman particularly sounded wound up on the previous blog – and the EDL from going into meetings. However, to ban you is a real mistake. Let me know when next meeting is and I will try to come along with you or I could send an email to complain to them.

  36. I vote for Jewish volunteers from the UJS and ZF to protect this Islamic stall from EDL scum like Roberta Moore and her friends:

    http://hurryupharry.org/2011/10/19/edl-thugs-attack-ahmadiyya-muslim-book-stall/#comment-678792

    • Roberta Moore

      Conchovor,

      How rich of you (KAPO SCUM) to try and USE “Jews” to protect a group that HATES Jews and freedom of speech. The same Ahmaddyyia Muslims who threatened our great Freedom of Speech HERO Geert Wilders.

      http://vladtepesblog.com/?p=39178

      Thanks for exposing your vilified agenda, Conchovor. I am taking note of all those who come here to spout their venom against those who fight for freedom of speech and against the evils of the Islamic cult.

      Ps. Those who attacked the stall are not my friends and I don’t know who they are. Furthermore I am not EDL I am the head of the JDL UK. Get yourself updated.
      Scum are the likes of you who defend the undefendable.

      When you are kind to the cruel you end up being cruel to the kind.

  37. Hi Zharya Conchover,

    Thank you for clarifying your position. Now I believe that I now better understand why I am an enemy of the Jewish People. Richard and Jonathan were unjustly refused admission to an anti-Semitic meeting. The anti-Semites didn’t want them to come, scared that they might ask difficult questions or report the meeting on their blogs, so used Roberta as a pretext. You acknowledge that this was wrong, but with your uniquely profound grasp of realpolitik think that Roberta, albeit unknowingly, afforded the anti-Semites the excuse.

    Furthermore, it has never crossed your mind that without Roberta the anti-Semites would have thought up some other reason, so Roberta is an enemy of the Jewish People. I disagreed with you regarding this matter, so I too am an enemy of the Jewish People.

    As I said Conchover, you are not my foe, you are my brother, but you are a disgrace. You are a disgrace to parents who failed to teach you the basics of what it is to be a Jew and a disgrace to any teachers you might have had and a disgrace to the Jewish People.

    May I recommend that you adopt your own suggestion and volunteer to protect anti-Semitic Islamic book stands from EDL hooligans? In the IDF soldiers are told that what they can’t learn with their heads, they must learn with their legs. If you don’t understand, ask Roberta to explain.

    Everyone else,

    Sitting in the lobby I saw Khadafi being beaten to a pulp by a random group of his fellow Muslim brothers on a flat screen TV. They shout, “Allah Akhba!” as they do it. I recall the rabbis in the Ethics of the Fathers seeing a human skull floating in a river and one comments, “As he did to others, so was done to him.”

    Next item is Gilad Shalit walking in the sunshine with his father, still crowded by well-wishers. How can I not compare those crowds?

    I know that Silke and all the other wonderful gentiles on this excellent blog will not misunderstand me that I the daily blessing that we say every morning, has just gained a far greater depth:

    “Blessed are You Adonai G-d our King of the universe that did not make me a non-Jew.”

  38. Roberta,

    I ask you as a personal favor to not call Zharya, or anybody else, Kapo. Besides everything else it doesn’t do justice to thousands of sacred Jews who were ultimately gassed by the Nazis too.

    Every Jew who is murdered because of his Jewishness, even those who don’t even know they were Jewish, is considered a Kadosh (sacred one) and when we said Yizkhor today, we said it for all of them. Yes Roberta, the Kapo are part of the 6,000,000 too and we cry for them all.

    Maybe you’re right and you’d have taken a cyanide pill. regarding myself I’m less certain. Either way Hillel would say: “Do not believe in yourself until the day you die. Do not judge your fellow until you have stood in his place.”

    Let’s thank G-d that our generation was spared such trials and vow that we will never let it happen again. Our generation has other challenges, assimilation, antisemitism, fundamentalist Islam. We have our own battles to fight and our own vocabulary. Thank G-d the Kapo is not part of that vocabulary.

    You know what Roberta. If for no other reason, you’d be doing both Silke and myself a personal favor. Isn’t that enough?

    • Daniel
      As to Ghadafi Sylvia, you met her once on this blog, just remarked that the destiny of Ghadafi is likely to befall the whole clan of Ghadafi.

      From which follows that if NATO would heed the UN-resolution to the letter it would have to turn to protecting them now. They have stretched the terms of the UN-resolution into unrecognizability in the past months, will they now remember what it says?

      And I hope somebody will concern him/herself with getting those Libyan missiles back from Gaza where they are said to have shown up.

      Tell us more about Gilad, does he show signs of learning to trust his legs again?

      • Hey, I see the same news as you. He was riding a bicycle today and looks weak, but less so. Apparently, he’s sleeping okay.

        Now, let’s worry about Pollard.

      • I don’t have a TV and I checked YouTube before I asked you –

        but this is really good news – yes Pollard – as I get it – it seems a vengeance thing to keep him locked up, which I don’t understand. If he isn’t a danger to anybody any longer I see no reason against releasing him.

    • Roberta Moore

      Daniel,

      I would love to abide by your request, I truly would. But I am not able to “forgive” those “Jews” who betray our own. I believe everyone has a choice. Although some philosophical words are beautiful, they are also rhetorical, cheap and do not always reflect the reality of the situation. No traitor is Kadosh. No kapo is kadosh. And they are certainly no brothers of mine. If that was the case I would also have to accept the Neturei Karta as my brothers and I cannot – will not.

      You are right that we have our own battles to fight and those people are not fighting with us but against us. So they do not deserve my forgiveness or in the least my mercy.

      Ask me any other favour and I will be happy to oblige. But please do not ask me to compromise my integrity and abide by political correctness. I just can’t do it. The truth is bound to hurt people, but I do not care for their feelings any more that they don’t care for mine.

      • Roberta,

        Zkharya is not my enemy, nor is he yours.

        I’m not holding my breath, but as long as that breath is within me I shall believe in man’s ability to recognize his own mistakes and repair. Have I ever told you the story of Rabbi Yisrael of Salant and the shoemaker?

        I believe you are wrong about Zkharya in more ways than one. I further suspect that he has a great deal more integrity and courage than you care to imagine. Let’s see who’s right.

  39. BTW Do we know for sure they were banned because of Roberta or simply because they are who they are and what they do in exposing the racist bigots like those who people Amnesty under the guise of justice.

    There is no worse being than those who turn on there own.

  40. Richard

    TapferImNirgendwo (brave in nowhere) has visited one of those venues you so faithfully report on in the German city of Cologne a city with quite a history and very respectful to tourism enhancing excavations from 1170 proving its Jewish past.
    http://www.pckoeln.consul-hotels.com/die_mikwe_juedisches_ritualbad_in_koeln.aspx?lang=en

    Since he has posted in English I guess he wants it to be spread and I think it should be, showing so well that “we” are at it again and never mind that we are so good at remembering when it comes to contempories we are like the worst you write about.

    Read all of it – THAT is the true “international”

    http://tapferimnirgendwo.wordpress.com/2011/10/20/yesterday/

    Yesterday
    Erstellt am Oktober 20, 2011 von tapferimnirgendwo
    Yesterday I got curious. I wanted to get to know the so called christian-jewish dialogue in Cologne. So I went to the Catholic Highschool and listened to the lecture „Where is Israel and where is Palestine? The long road to a two-state solution from an Israeli perspective“ by Igal Avidan. I found myself sitting between a pastor for Christian-Jewish dialogue and a representative of the Mayor’s office for International Affairs.

  41. I’m a cripple in a wheelchair, so fighting is out for me.

    It’s unlikely AI would have banned JH and RM without Moore’s primitive bigotry, but even if they would have, so what? Does that mean her barbarism and savagery should be left unchecked, or unaddressed? Does that mean she should be praised, feted or congratulated?

    Yours is the politics of despair, DM: there’s no point in behaving well, or better, because the antisemites will always get us, according to you. You’re a victim of history, DM, because you have no moral agency to set your own affairs, your own house in order first. Maybe the antisemites will always find be able to find a pretext. That doesn’t mean we should allow pretexts like Moore to roam free, unchecked or unrebuked.

    Sharon Klaff, you’re not one of mine, nor I one of yours. Fans of the EDL have no part in me or mine.

    Silke, the Irgun and Lehi had to learn to tow the line, and the Hagannah fought or betrayed them to the British to be fought or thwarted to make them do so. Until the EDL changes its ways, or dissolves, it should be fought, resisted or shunned by all Jews, and Jews like Moore shunned for the ignorant, stupid, racist bigots they are.

    My point being is that it is very Jewish, and very Zionist, to turn on some Jews, in some situations, when they have become a threat or liability to every other Jew.

    Such is that primitive little savage, Roberta Moore.

    • Roberta Moore

      Zakhrya,

      [I’m a cripple in a wheelchair, so fighting is out for me.]

      I would have thought that you could use your BRAIN instead then, but I see that even that is no longer an option for you.

      [It’s unlikely AI would have banned JH and RM without Moore’s primitive bigotry, but even if they would have, so what? Does that mean her barbarism and savagery should be left unchecked, or unaddressed? Does that mean she should be praised, feted or congratulated?]

      Please provide full proof of what you call my “primitive bigotry”, “barbarism” and “savagery”. Post here all the evidence you have for these comments you have made about me. Failure to do so will only expose the fantasist and deluded bigot kapo you truly are. Perhaps this is something which we should all address. A JEW who works against other JEWS. I call this TREASON.

      [Yours is the politics of despair, DM: there’s no point in behaving well, or better, because the antisemites will always get us, according to you.]

      That is the only intelligent thing you have said so far. Yes, the anti-Semites will always get us, so stop butt kissing them, ye fool!

      [You’re a victim of history, DM, because you have no moral agency to set your own affairs, your own house in order first.]

      Wrong. And I am disgusted to see you attacking someone who is worth at least 1000 of you!!! YOU Zakhrya are a victim of your own ignorance and bigotry, thus you have no moral high ground to judge anyone here. You should follow your own advice and put your own affairs and house in order first, and choose which side you are on. Sit on the fence for too long and you may end up impaled.

      [Maybe the antisemites will always find be able to find a pretext. That doesn’t mean we should allow pretexts like Moore to roam free, unchecked or unrebuked.]

      Our enemies of the left and from Islam do not need ME as a pretext. They have people like you who feed their rabid rage, and are at this very moment gloating for finding someone as feeble minded and ignorant as yourself who can do their work for them. You know absolutely nothing about Islam and the mind of the enemy.

      [Sharon Klaff, you’re not one of mine, nor I one of yours. Fans of the EDL have no part in me or mine.]

      Then join your friends: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Gzyeo1Z1I4&feature=related
      And give me the satisfaction of counting you also as the enemy of the Jewish people.

      [Silke, the Irgun and Lehi had to learn to tow the line, and the Hagannah fought or betrayed them to the British to be fought or thwarted to make them do so.]

      The Irgun and Lehi were SAVING JEWISH LIVES. Only a KAPO would be against saving Jewish lives. Your agenda is thus exposed. You are definitely NOT one of us.

      [Until the EDL changes its ways, or dissolves, it should be fought, resisted or shunned by all Jews, and Jews like Moore shunned for the ignorant, stupid, racist bigots they are.]

      Until KAPOS like you change their ways or dissolve, they should be fought, resisted and scorned by ALL righteous Jews and Kapos like Zakrhya, shunned, exposed and vilified for their ignorance, stupidity, bigotry and TREASON.

      [My point being is that it is very Jewish, and very Zionist, to turn on some Jews, in some situations, when they have become a threat or liability to every other Jew.]

      I agree totally. You are the one that has become this LIABILITY. They say: “Be careful with what you wish because you may just get it.”

      [Such is that primitive little savage, Roberta Moore.]

      Your insults are what make me certain of your corrupted soul. I could not wish for you to be more obvious than that. Here we have a man who does not know me, has never seen me and yet he feels he has a moral high ground to insult a Zionist BLOOD JEW, when he himself is probably the child of a converted one. ;) Oh the irony!

    • Dismissed from the Inde so now you pester us!!

  42. Zkharya,

    I was extremely sorry to hear of your medical condition. On behalf of everyone on this blog I wish you a speedy recovery and that the Almighty lessons your sorrow and grants you good health and a long and fulfilling life.
    Might I humbly suggest that we all, myself first and foremost, abandon the name-calling and focus on issues? You make several interesting points to which I wish to relate.

    You say that mine are the politics of “despair”:

    “Yours is the politics of despair, DM: there’s no point in behaving well, or better, because the anti-Semites will always get us, according to you.”

    Sadly, you are wrong on both counts. I have never said that “there’s no point in behaving well”, on the contrary, I believe that as Jews and human beings we should behave morally. If someone deserves to be silenced, which I rarely believe to be the case, let him or her be silenced. However, let that be because his opinions are so base, or because he knowingly lies. Let him not be silenced because an anti-Semite might use what he is saying as a pretext to be more anti-Semitic.

    Our Talmud and the writings of the Rambam as well as those of Zionist leaders such as Herzl, A D Gordon, Jabotinski and Ben Gurion have been used against us as well. This is not a reason to stop learning Gemara or the Iron Wall. We don’t learn them because of our despair, but because of hope – HaTikva.

    So, again, without name calling, slogans or empty clichés; explain clearly and simply what it is that Roberta has said or done and why you disagree. Assuming that you don’t believe that everyone you whose opinion you oppose with should be silenced, explain also why her statements or actions are so much more objectionable than others. I know that this requires more deliberation and research than name-calling, but I think you may be pleasantly surprised to discover that serious discussion is far more intellectually rewarding than just slagging people off.

    Finally, I do not believe that “anti-Semites will always get us”. We are not the trembling ghetto Jews of yesteryear surrounded by Nazi forces, wondering whether by giving the anti-Semite his quota, and throwing him our innocent brothers and sisters, he will finally leave us alone. Thank G-d today we are a strong nation that like other nations can make decisions based on our own moral code and what we and our elected leaders believe to be the interests of the Jewish People. We are not unrelated to the region in which we live or the international relations of 2011, but we are a self-confident independent state and celebrate that fact in a myriad of ways.

    Finally, there is no shame in acknowledging your mistake and apologizing. If you still believe that I or anyone else is the “enemy of the Jewish People” have the courage and integrity to explain why.

    If not, have the courage and integrity to say that you were wrong.

    Shabbat shalom,

  43. Roberta Moore

    Daniel,

    Our enemies have no courage or integrity. Do not hold your breath.

  44. Zkharya is not my enemy, nor is he yours.

    I’m not holding my breath, but as long as that breath is within me I shall believe in man’s ability to recognize his own mistakes and repair. Have I ever told you the story of Rabbi Yisrael of Salant and the shoemaker?

    I believe you are wrong about Zkharya in more ways than one. I further suspect that he has a great deal more integrity and courage than you might care to imagine.

    Let’s wait and see who’s right.

    • Daniel,

      I can only “judge” by what I “see” or “hear” and so far everything I have seen or heard from Zakhrya is:

      1) The vilification of a true blood Jewish Zionist whom he does not know, by calling me a primitive savage, a racist, a bigot, enemy of the Jewish people, etc…

      2) The vilification of a group of people (EDL) that not only support Israel and the right of Jews to live free from hate and terrorism, but also fight against the Islamisation of this country (which is also I believe the same country where this degenerate Zakhrya lives), fight against FGM (Female genital mutilation), fight against Honour killing, fight against Sharia law, fight against the oppression of women, against terrorism, and against Islamo-fascist anti-Semitism.

      He and other Kapos have stated time and time again that they “deplore”, and “abhor” EVERYTHING the EDL stands for.
      This cannot be clearer to me. If these degenerates truly mean what they say and “abhor” (see the strong word) EVERYTHING the EDL stands for (which are the things I wrote above), then these people are nothing more than vile animals who AGREE with the things the EDL stands against.

      These kapos are in FAVOUR of Sharia law (Barbaric Islamic law), are in FAVOUR of honour killings, are in FAVOUR of female genital mutilation, are in FAVOUR of oppressing females, are in FAVOUR of terrorism, are in FAVOUR of Islamo-fascist anti-Semitism, and obviously in FAVOUR of the evil cult of ISLAM too.

      He is MY ENEMY. He is also your enemy. This is what the enemy of the Jewish people sounds like.
      I am not wrong about Zakhrya at all. I am 100% right about him. I do not tend to look for “good” where there is none. There is absolutely NO integrity in his words, accusations and vilifications. And neither can they be justified by his own IGNORANCE, since the information has been out there for years and years. One can no longer claim such degree of ignorance. And neither am I inclined to forgive such ignorance at this stage of the game.

      He has jumped on the “demonize Roberta and the EDL wagon” without a single concrete fact to back up his accusations. He is a Pharisee traitor.
      I might not be a practising Jew (as far as the beliefs of Ashkenazi practising Jews goes) but I come from one of the oldest Sephardic Jewish families in existence, and as an old blood Sephardic Jew, the protection of my land and people are in my DNA. The same is not true for those who have converted or been born from converted mothers, and I do not expect them to understand it either.

      • Hi Roberta,

        It’s 30 minutes before Shabbat, I’ve finished cooking, but still have the floor to do so I’ll make this brief. PG I’ll write more in detail after Shabbat.

        I’m not certain how much you know about the Pharisees and Sadducees, and I’m not sure what exactly you mean when you call Zakhrya a Pharisee traitor. The division was many years ago during the time of the Hasmonean Dynasty and the Sadducces disappeared about 70AD. There was another sect called the Essenes who lived near the Dead Sea and also disappeared years ago.

        Regarding what you say about “..those who have converted or been born from converted mothers,” they include some of our greatest leaders including King David who was the descendant of Ruth, a Moabite convert and all his dynasty. You seem to have confused Judaism with some kind of late 19th Century European theory of Racism, and as anyway I can’t discuss this with you over Shabbat, why not read up a bit about these matters and we’ll discuss them tomorrow night.

        Now the floor!

        Shabbat shalom,

        Daniel

  45. I’ve not enjoyed reading Richard’s blog so much in ages, please everyone, carry on.

  46. Daniel,

    I was typing something when the damn pc crashed and I lost what I wrote. So I will try again.
    I know quite a bit about the Pharisees, Sadducees, Essenes, etc, and this is why I have a good reason to call him a Pharisee traitor.

    The Moabites were not ethnically different from the Israelites of Judea, and surrounding areas, so Ruth’s conversion was purely a faith based one. And such conversions do not automatically change your DNA. Hence David was as much ethnically linked to the Israelites, Hebrews and Jews as the Pathans-Pashtuns of Afghanistan.

    My Pakistani friend did a good research on this.
    http://morrigandunn.blogspot.com/2010/04/bnei-israel-in-pakistan.html

    My point is, Judaism is a RELIGION, not a race. But the Hebrews are ethnically linked by DNA. Those who are not ethnically linked to the tribes but convert to Judaism cannot be called blood Jews, but are nevertheless accepted into the fold of faith. However, although Rabbinical Judaism (which stemmed from the Pharisees as well) considers as Jews the children of converted people, they can only be considered as such IF they follow the faith, since they are not ethnically linked.

    There are several people who convert to Judaism for marriage purposes and then go on to claim their children are Jewish because they are converted Jews. Sorry but this is NOT so. A child cannot be a Jew or a Muslim or a Christian upon its birth. These are religions and only if they learn it, believe in it and follow it can they be considered as such, no matter what “Rabbinical Judaism” says. Although some children don’t have much choice in the matter anyway….

    I can convert to Buddhism but my child will not become Tibetan if I do, will it? Neither will my child be a Buddhist upon its birth. This follows the same logic.

    Shabbat Shalom

  47. Sorry Daniel,

    Please consider this link for the research as the other is not showing the photos.
    http://edl-englishdefenceleague.blogspot.com/2011/02/bnei-israel-in-pakistan.html

  48. Pingback: Amnesty International becomes even more of a joke | My Blog

  49. Firstly, I agree with you that Judaism or more accurately, being Jewish, is not a racial matter. For that reason all this talk of Jewish blood, if we are talking literally about blood, is meaningless. There is no such thing. When it comes to DNA, we know that common DNA markers have often been found among Jews, especially priests. This suggests that many of us have common ancestry. DNA has not and cannot be used to prove that a random person is or is not a Jew.

    I do not like calling Judaism a religion as it always seems to limit its scope and make it into a kind of Christianity with a synagogue instead of a church, Star of David instead of cross, Hanukkah instead of Christmas, etc. By doing this we miss out on 99.9% of being Jewish and just find out about the bits that resemble Christianity. Judaism as a “religion” is a modern invention meant to reassure the goyim that they have nothing to worry about as we aren’t a people and have no national aspirations. Furthermore, if Judaism is a religion, it seems to imply that a religious or more religious Jew is also more of a Jew or a better Jew – this I do not accept.

    The anti-Semites often use the fact that Judaism is a religion against us too. Since when have religions required their own geographical sovereign state? Why can’t you build your synagogues and cook your chicken soup in the UK or Poland?

    However, let’s assume you’re right and being Jewish is a solely religious matter. Who should then decide who is a Jew and who isn’t if not religious authorities? Would you ask a carpenter to make a medical decision or consult with a brain surgeon before buying a second-hand car? If Judaism is a religion, surely religious experts ought to know whether someone who converts is wholly Jewish or not.

    Finally, regarding the Moabites, I told you to do homework, but you didn’t. Not only are the Moabites different to us, but because they didn’t offer us hospitality in the desert we are forbidden to convert Moabites, let alone marry them or have them as out kings.

    No Ammonite or Moabite or any of his descendants may enter the assembly of the LORD, even down to the tenth generation.

    So what happened? How comes that the descendant of a proselyte became our king and it is for the restoration of his monarchy that we pray? Don’t ask your Pakistani friend. Find out yourself. It’s a wonderful mystery.

  50. Shalom Daniel,

    [DNA has not and cannot be used to prove that a random person is or is not a Jew.]

    It can. DNA tests can tell precisely what your ethnic ancestry is. It won’t tell you if you are a Jew but it will tell you if you are from the tribe of the Israelites or the Chinese or even the Norse people. It’s a scientific fact.
    Furthermore, only the FEMALE of the species possess the Mitochondrial DNA, and this is the DNA responsible for evolution and mutation of species. So they can only trace it back to the females, which are even more accurate, since we have a matriarchal society, and quite rightly so.
    Women who convert to Judaism do not possess the DNA lineage from those who came from those ancient tribes. This is also a fact and not to be taken as discrimination or “racism”.

    Judaism is a religion. But it’s like what people who follow their religions also say: “It’s a way of life”. Indeed, but only when you choose to live in that manner.

    [By doing this we miss out on 99.9% of being Jewish and just find out about the bits that resemble Christianity.]

    I do not know what you mean… the 99% of being Jewish means that you follow Judaism. I for example do not follow everything that we are “told” to follow in the current propagated Judaism. I have decided to focus on the first accounts of the belief prior to all sects being developed. Therefore my Judaism is very different from the Judaism I see being practised today. But due to a “particular sect” monopolizing the religion, I will always be seen as a “pagan” to them. But I care nothing for their utter ignorance anyway. This is the area where you mentioned that some may think they are “better Jews than others”. It’s their own self imposition/sacrifice/discipline/interpretation of Judaic laws that makes THEM believe so.

    The Judaism you are talking about seems to be the religion + law based society. Isn’t it so? It was when a group of people gathered together to spread the message of their g-d to others and created laws which define society behaviour.

    [The anti-Semites often use the fact that Judaism is a religion against us too. Since when have religions required their own geographical sovereign state? Why can’t you build your synagogues and cook your chicken soup in the UK or Poland?]

    The anti-Semites will use ANYTHING against us. But we cannot deny certain facts. And religions are not geographically based, as I know Taoists who live in the UK as much as I know Jews who live in China. Their argument is flawed. However when it comes to Muslims they are accepted. Noticed that? ;)

    [ Who should then decide who is a Jew and who isn’t if not religious authorities?]

    The person itself should decide if he/she is a Jew or not. If a person decides to convert to Judaism, and follow the belief, then indeed that person is a Jew. The Religious authorities are only responsible for the teaching and or conversion.
    But if that person after converting decides to follow Buddhism, then that person is no longer a Jew but a Buddhist. It’s all about logic

    [If Judaism is a religion, surely religious experts ought to know whether someone who converts is wholly Jewish or not.]

    Correct. But the expertise we have today is also flawed. They only consider Rabbinical Judaism as a based in which to state if someone is Jewish or not. The likes of me will forever be discriminated because we do not “conform” with THEIR beliefs. Our beliefs pre-date Rabbinical Judaism.

    [Finally, regarding the Moabites, I told you to do homework, but you didn’t. Not only are the Moabites different to us, but because they didn’t offer us hospitality in the desert we are forbidden to convert Moabites, let alone marry them or have them as out kings.]

    These are details. The truth is that Israelites DID marry with neighbouring people and the DNA of these people can attest to that. Moabites were only different to us in matters of belief. But geographically despite all the rules and “commands” people have strayed, people have traded through these areas and surely people have also intermarried.

    Moabites and Israelites can easily claim descent from Terah, Abraham and Haran’s father, who was a Sumerian (Where Iraq is now).
    Unfortunately for us, we are also linked to the Amalekites, Canaanites, Seirites, Sethites and Philistines (by blood).
    Moabites being the sons of Moab, who was the son of Lot, who was the son of Haran (Abraham’s brother).

    Furthermore, trade and friendship went a long way those days. Moabites and Egyptians also intermarried, and so did Israelites and Egyptians, despite all the wars and prejudices going around.

    Judaism however remains a religion and followers of it were called Jews, but this word only started to be used as a general context, in Babylon during the exile. To the Babylons, every Israelite, Moabite, Sethite, etc who followed Judaism was a Jew.

    I know the story of David, don’t worry ;)
    In any case I also know that he was linked by DNA to the old tribes because Ruth also descended from the sons and daughters of Haran, so they were linked by blood.

  51. How do you explain that there is a black American without a trace of any (black) African ancestry?

    • Silke, who is this person? The Islamo-Nazi Obama by any chance? ;)
      Oh he does have African Ancestry alright.

  52. A couple of points about the Conversion conversation :

    Judaism teaches us that the Souls of all Jews were present a Mount Sinai – this includes the future generations of the Jewish people and the people who would convert to Judaism throughout eternity ( Talmud – Shavuot 39a )

    The Talmud also uses a very interesting phrase when discussing Jewish Law relating to Conversion – ” a convert who comes to convert ” – this indicates that the person already has the spark of the Jewish Soul within them .

    So there is no distinction in Judaism between Born Jews & Jews-By Choice
    - there are all members of the Jewish People .

    • Roberta Moore

      Hi Ian,

      Yes, we have all heard this “story” about all souls already being initially “Jewish” and “reverting” to Judaism. (Muslims preach the same thing)
      But the Talmud is not a holy book, it’s just book portraying the discussions and conversations of a few rabbis, about a number of things, including some very nasty stuff too. Again, this is Rabbinical Judaism, its opinions and its beliefs. It cannot be accepted by ALL Jews, principally those who do not believe in Rabbinical Judaism.

      You say there are no distinctions but there are. There is physical and also spiritual distinction between those born Jews from Jewish mothers and those who were born from converted mothers. DNA is the physical one and it is pretty evident. The spiritual distinction however does not always manifest itself unless the recipient is spiritually open. Sometimes it can be made manifest but the recipient does not recognise it. They are the imprints of ancestors on someone’s soul.

      There have been many scientific experiments that have proven the DNA also carries our “memories” and “experiences” onto our offspring and also after their offspring. This only happens through the Mitochondrial DNA, which belongs to the FEMALE of the species. Males do not have mitochondrial DNA.

      I am not saying they are not “members” of the Jewish faith. Surely we share the FAITH, albeit not exactly in the same manner I have to say, but if they have converted in order to follow the faith, we must accept them into our fold, since this is what they converted for.

      My point on this was to perhaps explain that blood Jews do feel a stronger attachment to the memories of their ancestors and therefore to the land of Israel, because it’s in their DNA. While the converted ones may not be as “Zionist” as blood jews are.

      This can also be verified by the amount of non-Sephardic, non-Karaites, non-Mizrachis, non-Falashas, etc.. who are NOT Zionists.

    • Hi Ian,

      Thanks. You are completely write from a point of view of Jewish law. My problem is that I suspect that Roberta may not accept the Oral Law as being binding.

      The discussion of King David’s non-Jewish descent was meant to raise that issue. As you know, we consider King David to be Jewish even though he was the descendant of a Moabite woman because our sages teaches us that the restriction about converting Moabites applies to men, not women. In other words, without the Oral Law the dynasty of David are not only not kings, but they aren’t even Jews.

      In order to accept that David was,and will one day again be, a rightful king we must accept the whole law written and oral, including the Gemara that you quote above.

      Finally, in Roberta’s defense, sentiments similar to hers do appear in the Khuzari by Rabbi Yehudah:

      1:27 “Any gentile who joins us [as proselytes] unconditionally shares our good fortune, without, however, being quite equal to us.”

      This,however, is a philosophical opinion and is not accepted in Jewish law by anyone.

      • Roberta Moore

        Shalom Daniel,

        You are right. I don’t accept “Oral Torah” as binding, because I have personally seen evidence that this “Oral Torah” is being made as it goes, and it’s not the same as it was in ancient times. Furthermore Oral Torah is Rabbinical Judaism. I have already said that Rabbinical Judaism is but ONE of the sects of Judaism, and by no means reflect the true story or beliefs of Ancient Judaism.

        The fact that Rabbinical Judaism monopolises the religion and therefore anyone who converts has to convert under THEIR rules, does not mean they are accurate or right. It just means that if someone does not “believe” in what they preach they cannot convert. It’s irrational and disturbing.

        You are also right about the conversions of Moabites applying only to women, but as I stated earlier, Ruth was a blood descendant of Haran, Abraham’s brother, therefore David was too. I do not see a problem with David being a Jew in these circumstances. I don’t know why we must accept Oral Torah to make his claim to the throne valid.

        [This,however, is a philosophical opinion and is not accepted in Jewish law by anyone.]

        It is not a philosophical opinion, this is the opinion of several ancient sects and many of us agree with it.
        I wouldn’t go as far as saying “They are not equal to us”. Equality is measured by the spirit and the actions of a human being in my eyes, regardless of race, or colour. But they do NOT share the DNA, and that is not a mere belief but a scientific FACT. I can convert to the religion of the Masai but I will NEVER be a Masai, no matter what. I will SIMPLY share their beliefs.

        Several sects of Judaism disagree with Rabbinical Judaism and this debate has been going on for centuries, which proves I am not the only one who thinks in this manner. It is a FACT that Ancient Judaism is NOT the same as Rabbinical Judaism which became really prominent after the exile and during the Middle Ages.

      • Be careful Roberta, you’re becoming predictable. It’s much less sexy.

        Since you seem to see yourself as the spiritual descendant of some ancient long-gone Hebrew sect, I recommend we carry on this discussion off-blog. It is unconnected to the subject of this page, of no interest to most readers and I’m not even sure it’s of that much interest to me.

        Next time you’re here, pop round, we’ll have a few drinks and we’ll sort you out. Does that sound reasonable?

        PS
        You’ll love my daughter, she’s a man after your own heart. Every Saturday night she travels back to the Technion on a Haredi (Ultra-Orthodox) Egged bus and refuses to move to the back. There are always tales to tell.

  53. If I were to convert to Judaism I wouldn’t have any of the familiy history that comes with it for “real” Jews.

    • Roberta Moore

      Silke, how do you know?
      Maybe if you look in your past you may find something hidden….
      Loads of people don’t know they have Jewish ancestry.

      In Brazil there are thousands of blood Jews who had to convert to Christianity during the Inquisition, and to this day they do not know they had recent Jewish ancestry. We know because all these people had to change their names to those of animals, trees or professions even, and this served as a marker for future generations to recognise Jewish ancestry.

      • I know because both my parents and all four of my grand-parents made it unmolested through the 3rd Reich.

        As to deep deep deep ancestry I very much hope that there will have been Jews, Gipsies, Huns, Romans, Greeks, Vikings, Slavs whatever you can think of i.e. I am quite content to be the prevalent middle European mixture which has been ground for migration and conquest and thus “mixed” children as long as it exists.

        But that wasn’t my point. My point was if I were to convert I wouldn’t have any memory of family parties where the story of aunt X or uncle Y is told.

        And that is a fact that any deep ancestry diggings can’t remedy.

  54. Hi Silke,

    I know a joke about this situation, but its a little anti-Christian. I know it won’t offend you, but it might upset my Jewish brethren on this excellent blog. I’ll send it by mail.

    The last thing you want to do is to convert, don’t even consider it. It’s a long, hard and thankless task and if you try, I’ll do everything I can to make you feel unwelcome. That will be as nothing in comparison to how any REAL rabbi will make you feel.

    You are an excellent shiksa, one of the best, and I pray you forever stay just that.

    • Daniel

      there is no chance of my converting to anything though I am of course absolutely convinced that my charms are such that I could make all of you welcome me as if I were the greatest celebrity ever invented. ;-)

      Sadly my religious education has been torpedoed early on because of unlucky incidences like bringing home lice from every visit to kids’s service in church which eventually convinced my mother that my hair had to be tightly braided ever after.

      And then I got introduced to Homer and found solace in the world of the Olympics which so much resembled my own.

      And no the joke isn’t anti-Christian – it is selfish in a IMHO very healthy way.

    • Roberta Moore

      OMG Daniel! You called Silke a “Shiksa”. Is there any other meaning to this word which I do not know? :o

  55. Without the Talmud, there is no tradition that the Jews are a people in exile and, consequently, no belief or hope in its reversal and their restoration i.e. Zionism.

    The Talmud is the collation of the traditions, memories, lore, and law of a people and a land, whose state and centre has been lost. The Talmud meant that Jews carried the land, internalised it, wherever they abode.

    I think Roberta Moore is a paid double agent of P.S.C. You couldn’t invent a better one.

    • Roberta Moore

      Zakhrya

      [Without the Talmud, there is no tradition that the Jews are a people in exile ]

      So I guess the stories corroborated by the Parthian Kings do not consist of “evidence” for you then…oh and the chronicles of Nabonidus are not evidence of Jewish exile either, yeah?
      King Koresh (Cyrus the Great) was a Zionist, after all he was the one who allowed the “Jews” to return home. Forgot that?

      [The Talmud is the collation of the traditions, memories, lore, and law of a people and a land, whose state and centre has been lost. The Talmud meant that Jews carried the land, internalised it, wherever they abode.]

      Maybe so. But the Talmud is ALSO a collection of silly conversations and irrational debates on “Rabbinical Jewish Law” and has loads of other things which no one with a sane mind would accept. I repeat, Talmud is NOT a holy book.

      [I think Roberta Moore is a paid double agent of P.S.C. You couldn’t invent a better one.]

      Well, I guess they are wasting their money on me then ;)

      • I have a feeling Roberta, my lovely, that you have studied very little Talmud. I have no idea what you mean when you say it’s not holy, unless this is from the perspective of one of those ancient Hebrew sects.

        The debate of the Talmud is not irrational, but it follows a pattern of logic, which overlaps modern Western logic, but is not identical. For example superfluous words and unusual sentence structure are highly significant in Talmudic logic and can have far reaching implications.

        Anyway, could so many Koreans be wrong?

        http://www.thejc.com/lifestyle/lifestyle-features/48771/why-south-koreans-are-love-judaism

      • ‘So I guess the stories corroborated by the Parthian Kings do not consist of “evidence” for you then…oh and the chronicles of Nabonidus are not evidence of Jewish exile either, yeah?
        King Koresh (Cyrus the Great) was a Zionist, after all he was the one who allowed the “Jews” to return home. Forgot that?’

        I would have thought it was obvious I meant the second exile. But, you are right, there are e.g. Christian traditions to that effect. But Christianity (or Persian Zoroastrianism) isn’t Judaism.

        You seem a little confused, Roberta.

  56. zkharya me old cupcake!

    At least she’s getting paid.

    You declared me to be an “enemy of the Jewish People” a week ago and I still haven’t seen a brass farthing from anyone.

  57. Roberta Moore

    Silke,

    Ahh, so I am sure you have some Viking or “Barbarian” blood running through your veins.. and I envy you! ;)

    • as to my blood the only thing I am reasonably sure about it is that when fresh its colour is a rather nice red.

      • the guy who tried to find contact lenses for me that would stay in place complained that I had asiatic eye lids – so if there is some “blood” more prevalent it is probably that of a bow-legged Hun.

  58. Roberta Moore

    Silke,

    I was going to say that. But perhaps Mongolian… ;)
    I am sure you are a terrific looking girl with those Asiatic eye lids! More envy…

    • both the Vikings and the Huns were scourges to people of the time who just wanted to live.

      Not much to be admired about them – as best I know none of them left anything behind which mankind would regret not to have.

      Both were excellent at pillaging, ravaging, looting – besides that the vikings seem to have been good at handling boats and the Huns at handling (small) horses.

      I prefer people who enriched those who came after them by leaving books.

  59. Roberta Moore

    Silke, not sure about that version of “shiksa”.
    But that is a better one than the one I know. ;)
    I don’t speak Yiddish, only Hebrew and Ladino.

  60. Roberta Moore

    Daniel motek,

    I have never studied in Yeshivah if that’s what you mean by “studied very little Talmud” ;) But I know for a fact that no one here has studied Talmud in depth either, and if they did they would know what I am talking about. The book is not holy because:

    1. Does not reflect pre-Rabbinical Judaic beliefs which is the REAL Judaism from the times of Moses.
    2. Discuss things which have no place in a progressive
    3. Attempts to complicate things which are extremely easy in order to ensure that “plebeians” become DEPENDENT on Rabbis for “spiritual advice”. (i.e. Shabbat tractates.. etc)
    4. There are several Talmudim , etc.

    Most of it are discussions of Rabbis , and who said this, or who said that, and what they did and what should be done… Most of it is superfluous.
    And the worst of all in my opinion is the tractate on Avoda Zara, which I totally disagree. I even disagree with their petulance and audacity to speak as if they were g-ds!!! They debate about the “Kingdom of Rome” in such denigrating way that it does not do any justice to all the righteous citizens of Rome or even to their progress as a nation.

    What nation is innocent and perfect? None! But these tractates are misleading. They consider the art of Astrology as EVIL , in fact everything these people do not understand or grasp is “evil” or “Avoda zara” as they call. The Sanhedrin hanged 80 “witches” in Askhelon once… get my point? Is this “holy”?

    [The debate of the Talmud is not irrational, but it follows a pattern of logic, which overlaps modern Western logic, but is not identical.]

    Sorry motek but I will have to disagree with you on this one. Debating/discussing things which are mere delusions is not logic and it certainly does not overlap Western logic. It’s the same as discussing and debating to no end the ins and outs of “how a flat tyre plays an important part in the life of a pregnant female Comodo Dragon”.

    [For example superfluous words and unusual sentence structure are highly significant in Talmudic logic and can have far reaching implications.]

    This is what the Rabbis want you to believe.

  61. Roberta Moore

    I missed one word:

    2. Discuss things which have no place in a progressive SOCIETY.

  62. Roberta Moore

    I hope I did not upset anyone with this debate.

  63. Roberta Moore

    Zakhrya

    [I would have thought it was obvious I meant the second exile.]

    Aah I see. So the first passed totally incognito in History…

    [But, you are right, there are e.g. Christian traditions to that effect. But Christianity (or Persian Zoroastrianism) isn’t Judaism.]

    I never said it was. However Judaism came after many Eastern Religions and much of it also came from the land of Abraham, the Sumerian.
    Furthermore you will see a lot of similarities between Judaism and the religions you mentioned above. They all came from Sumeria, that’s why ;)

    [You seem a little confused, Roberta.]

    Not at all. I know exactly what I am talking about.
    How many of you have ever bothered to try and reconcile the Torah with Historical facts and Archaeological evidence? Truth is far more amazing than science fiction in this case.

  64. Roberta my love,

    You certainly didn’t upset me, though I suspect there may be a few million furious Koreans. I study Talmud for an hour or two each day and am thoroughly depressed on the days that I can’t. It’s not a question of what the rabbis tell me, it’s what I am.

    Like chess Talmud provides me alternative tools with which to analyze the reality in which I live. Neither of them conform to all rules of classical logic and both include additional tools that those unacquainted with them may find it hard to understand at first. Interestingly; chess, Talmud and crosswords have been recommended as ways of avoiding Alzheimer’s. I’ll tell you whether it works, if I don’t forget.

    I’m glad to hear that zkharya has a liking for what he sees as irony. This explains a lot about early, somewhat wacky, postings.

    Early night, big day tomorrow,

    • Roberta Moore

      Daniel,
      :) I wouldn’t want to upset the Koreans now, would I? Or you..
      I do understand why you study it and I am glad you find solace in those discussions, or even tools. It is as I said, an interesting book, but I would personally prefer to study an art such as Astrology than to study the whys Astrology is an evil (Avodah Zara) skill. Have a good day tomorrow!

  65. Hi Roberta,
    Shit you write a lot !
    I would however appreciate you enlightening me concerning a few of your more outlandish claims.
    “the protection of my land and people are in my DNA. The same is not true for those who have converted or been born from converted mothers, and I do not expect them to understand it either.”

    This seems to me more a case of wishful thinking.
    Sorry Roberta but with all your childish demonstrations (disruptive or otherwise (we did them when we were 16 but got bored) ) the real job of protecting the land and people has been left in the hands of every Jew living in Israel. The rest have denied their heritage, so why not tone it down a little.
    How do you (with your Hebrew DNA) compare with the sons of converts who have given their lives in defense of our country whereas all you seem capable of doing is a quick holiday at the Hilton Tel Aviv.

    “The Moabites were not ethnically different from the Israelites of Judea, and surrounding areas, so Ruth’s conversion was purely a faith based one. And such conversions do not automatically change your DNA. Hence David was as much ethnically linked to the Israelites, Hebrews and Jews as the Pathans-Pashtuns of Afghanistan.”
    ” Moabites and Israelites can easily claim descent from Terah, Abraham and Haran’s father, who was a Sumerian (Where Iraq is now).”

    Here you have me completely confused.
    You seem to start the DNA thing with Terah but he was only a few generations after Noah and everybody is a descendant of Noah.
    When do you think the DNA changed? Migdal Bavel?

    “My point is, Judaism is a RELIGION, not a race. But the Hebrews are ethnically linked by DNA. Those who are not ethnically linked to the tribes but convert to Judaism cannot be called blood Jews, but are nevertheless accepted into the fold of faith.

    Suddenly the DNA thing starts with the tribes!

    ” However, although Rabbinical Judaism (which stemmed from the Pharisees as well) considers as Jews the children of converted people, they can only be considered as such IF they follow the faith, since they are not ethnically linked. ”

    Which faith? Your definition of the Jewish faith certainly isn’t mine! Maybe the faith of the Black Hebrews of Dimona who claim that they are the real Jews?

    “The person itself should decide if he/she is a Jew or not. If a person decides to convert to Judaism, and follow the belief, then indeed that person is a Jew. The Religious authorities are only responsible for the teaching and or conversion.
    But if that person after converting decides to follow Buddhism, then that person is no longer a Jew but a Buddhist. It’s all about logic”

    So now anyone who decides he’s a Jew really is! And as we have so many different opinions as to what the belief is they can believe anything!

    “My point on this was to perhaps explain that blood Jews do feel a stronger attachment to the memories of their ancestors and therefore to the land of Israel, because it’s in their DNA. While the converted ones may not be as “Zionist” as blood jews are.”

    Great point Roberta ! That’s why so many live outside Israel .
    The Jews haven’t actually spent much of the last few thousand years in Israel, we keep getting banished.So perhaps my DNA should be pulling me to Wlodava in Poland and yours to Halab.
    Maybe it’s my DNA pulling me to go on holiday to Egypt, after all my ancestors spent a few hundred years there?
    I don’t recall Avraham walking in Golders Green or Brooklyn but somehow a lot of the Hebrews seem to end up in Europe and America. Probably forgot to bring the old DNA!

    Look forward to yor reply

    • Roberta and Michael,

      The two of you seem to be in fundamental agreement over most questions and being that you are both students of Rabbi Meir Kahana this is hardly surprising. Naturally, there are small details you need to iron out, but I’m sure that in the fullness of time satisfactory solutions will be found.

      I might recommend that the UK head of the JDL rereads the excellent “Why be Jewish?” by the founder of her league. She may discover that some of her opinions are not fully in line with those of the JDL’s founders.

      I disagree with Goldman about those demonstrations. Though we were only 16, I believe that they were of crucial importance in the struggle for the release of Soviet Jews and may even have been a factor in the eventual collapse of the USSR. I cannot recall getting bored of them, and both of us took part in demonstrations during visits to the UK as late as the early mid 80s. They were also an excellent way of pulling the ladies as there is no better aphrodisiac than radical activism.

      • there is no better aphrodisiac than radical activism.

        oh really?
        then what did Bruce of Ahava-fame do wrong? it didn’t seem to work for him at all? I never saw a lady looking at him with that raptured expression that Richard got from one of “theirs”

      • Daniel,

        [I might recommend that the UK head of the JDL rereads the excellent “Why be Jewish?” by the founder of her league. She may discover that some of her opinions are not fully in line with those of the JDL’s founders.]

        I tend to appreciate and adopt good ideologies but not follow people.
        Kahane was a visionary, and had great wisdom in many things. But I do not agree with everything he said because I am one person and he is another. We are bound to have some differences in opinions. I do not share all his personal opinions but I do share his ideology.

        [ They were also an excellent way of pulling the ladies as there is no better aphrodisiac than radical activism.]
        ;) Tell me about it….

  66. Roberta Moore

    Hi Michael!

    Yes, I do tend to write a lot… sorry about that.

    [ the real job of protecting the land and people has been left in the hands of every Jew living in Israel. The rest have denied their heritage]

    While I am tempted to agree with you I must also point out that a great percentage of the Jews living in Israel are doing just the opposite and pushing Israel into a suicide path. Living in another country out of Israel does not mean denying their heritage, but as with evolution, it means survival and keeping the “species” alive. If we were all in one place I am sure we would be easy prey. Just like Hamas and Hezbollah say. And they are right.

    [How do you (with your Hebrew DNA) compare with the sons of converts who have given their lives in defense of our country whereas all you seem capable of doing is a quick holiday at the Hilton Tel Aviv.]

    I served for 2 years in the IDF and if my life was to be taken I was already ready for it. What makes you think I wouldn’t return to fight again? I also met many “Sabra” born sons and daughters of converts who have become refuseniks. Oh yes, and the lovely chaps from Mea Shearim and other datyim who do NOT serve in the Army. So I believe I haven’t done too badly and that also means a lot of these “Jews” who live in Israel are not really ready to fight for their land.

    [Here you have me completely confused.
    You seem to start the DNA thing with Terah but he was only a few generations after Noah and everybody is a descendant of Noah.
    When do you think the DNA changed? Migdal Bavel?]

    NOT everyone is a descendant of Noach.

    Genesis 6:4 The NEFILIM were on the earth in those days and also AFTER THAT. The “sons of God” had come to the daughters of man and had fathered them. [The NEFILIM] were the mightiest ones who ever existed, people of renown.

    As you can see, the Nefilim also fathered children, not only Noach.
    And Noach himself was also suspiciously “different” from the others. The Sumerians story tell us that he was fathered by one of the Nefilim as well, quite an important one at that. He is also called Ziusudra, Utnapishtim and Atrahasis in different languages. These stories were written during the 17th century BC.
    They pre-date the Torah. ;)

    [Suddenly the DNA thing starts with the tribes!]

    It doesn’t start, it continues…

    [Which faith? Your definition of the Jewish faith certainly isn’t mine! Maybe the faith of the Black Hebrews of Dimona who claim that they are the real Jews?]

    Rabbinical Judaism shares the same faith as you, no?
    The Black Hebrews of Dimona may share a different version.
    And as a fact, ancient Hebrews shared an even more different version altogether.
    The question still remains. What faith? This is what I am trying to find out, because surely it’s not the one we know right now.

    [So now anyone who decides he’s a Jew really is! And as we have so many different opinions as to what the belief is they can believe anything!]

    True. But the point is, if I want to be a Buddhist I must follow Buddhism.
    If I want to be a Christian, I must follow Christianity. Shouldn’t it be the same for Judaism too? Now what to believe is the question…

    [The Jews haven’t actually spent much of the last few thousand years in Israel, we keep getting banished.So perhaps my DNA should be pulling me to Wlodava in Poland and yours to Halab.]

    Perhaps… but for some reason mine has pulled me to Israel. ;)

    [I don’t recall Avraham walking in Golders Green or Brooklyn but somehow a lot of the Hebrews seem to end up in Europe and America. Probably forgot to bring the old DNA!]

    That’s what we call “survival of the species”. People move from certain areas to give a better change to their offspring. But many do return. Israel is quite small. If we all returned…..

    • Hello again Roberta,
      Sorry kid, I just don’t buy it.
      So OK, you had a couple of years in the army here, decided you’d be happier living in Golders Green and left.
      Fair enough, but I find it hard to believe that you decided that you’d better go and live in North London in order to facilitate the survival of the Hebrews.
      There is much more to living here than serving in the army, and while I do not defend Jews who do not serve, it is only one facet of living in Israel.
      So yes, even Jews who don’t serve in the army have tied their destiny with every other Jew living here.
      And any son of a convert who lives here has a hundred times the Zionist DNA of any Hebrew living in Golders Green.
      And sorry, but any Jew not living here is denying his heritage even if he did serve for two years, twenty years ago.
      What make me think you wouldn’t return to fight again?
      Probably coz the army wouldn’t have you…Sorry.
      Look I’m really not trying to insult (well maybe a little) but I find it quite pathetic when someone living in North London goes on and on about how Zionistic they are especially as they have Sefardi DNA.
      Now to what I don’t understand.
      Who on earth are these Jews to which you feel so attached?
      If I understand you correctly they include anybody born a Hebrew, which includes any descendant of Terah ( anybody before Terah?) and anybody who has converted to and keeps the Jewish faith even though you don’t seem to know what it is.
      ” The question still remains. What faith? This is what I am trying to find out, because surely it’s not the one we know right now”
      Please elaborate and more importantly have a great evening.
      P.S Are you by any chance interested in a 49 year old Halabi virgin (male)?

      • Halabi Virgin???????

        mmmh – could you be a bit more specific? Can he cook? If yes, does he do it well and willingly?

        49 is a bit too young for my taste, you don’t have by any chance an older model on offer?

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halabi

      • Shalom Michael!

        Actually motek, my life was not that simple then and I did not come to London by personal choice. If I had a choice at the time I would have remained in Israel. But that’s water under the bridge now. I lived in Israel for longer than 2 years as well and if I could return now I would.

        [What make me think you wouldn’t return to fight again?
        Probably coz the army wouldn’t have you…Sorry.]

        LOL! If that turned out to be true then I would fight without the Army. ;)

        [Look I’m really not trying to insult (well maybe a little) but I find it quite pathetic when someone living in North London goes on and on about how Zionistic they are especially as they have Sefardi DNA.]

        I know how you feel. I had a strong reason to leave at that time.. and it broke my heart too.

        [P.S Are you by any chance interested in a 49 year old Halabi virgin (male)?]
        ;) I don’t like virgins. And I have a partner already. But who is this Halabi virgin?

  67. Daniel,
    ;) haha! Ok. Let’s continue in private.
    And by the way, I love your daughter already!

  68. The virgin is 50 this week!

    He cooks all manner of Halabi foods, including ladies fingers in diluted tomato puree and garlic, mincemeat in puff pastry and small yellowish looking spiced chickens. He also pours classes of Scotch that are far too “generous” for my liking and serves them with peanuts, dried fruits and oriental biscuits.

    He is a retired IDF officer and financially independent.

    • oh to be young (enough) again

      If he’d allow me to forgoe the Scotch I’d woe him with all my charms and if he wished it so promise to honour, protect and defend his virginity. What is sex compared to the chance to dine like that!

  69. Silke
    “49 is a bit too young for my taste, you don’t have by any chance an older model on offer?”
    Sorry but I’m not actually in the Halabi Virgin business.
    I just happen to know one.

  70. Charming you are, but he is also a priest and they are forbidden to marry righteous proselytes, so sadly even if you’d convert, it would be impossible.

    Many Jews of Halabi descent seem to often have a preference for other Syrian Jews, even though their families left Halab long ago, That’s why Michael thought of the lovely Roberta.

    • in case you mean by priest a Catholic one – those in Bavaria were well known for having house keepers and evil minds claimed that the house keeper’s children tended to look like …

      • The gentleman in question is not a Catholic priest and decidedly not Bavarian. Today in Judaism priesthood is not a profession, but a birth status and the life of a Jewish priest differs little from that of anyone else. Incidentally, Michael Goldman is also a priest, but his responsibilities consist of little more than ritual blessings in synagogue.

        However, we all await the day when our temple will be rebuilt and the priests will return to their work and Levites to their songs and music.

        May it be restored speedily in our days, amen!