Abdel Bari Atwan at Amnesty: “I get worse coverage in the Jewish Chronicle than Hitler would!”

Greg Philo, Victoria Brittain, Abdel Bari Atwan and Tim Llewellyn at Amnesty last night.

Greg Philo, Victoria Brittain, Abdel Bari Atwan and Tim Llewellyn at Amnesty last night.

Last night at Amnesty journalist Abdel Bari Atwan held up an old JC front page, which had a headline about him that he didn’t like, and claimed he gets worse coverage than Adolf Hitler.

He spoke along with Tim “But Hamas was democratically elected” Llewellyn and Phil “We wait in fear of phone calls from the Israelis” Philo, while Victoria Brittan chaired and made sure not to take any pro-Israel questions in the Q&A. So much for Amnesty claiming:

“Those who disagree with MEMO, or indeed any apsect of the event, are of course welcome to attend and make their point in a reasonable way.”

We were treated to default rhetoric about Israel controlling the media and dominating ALL the political parties. Llewellyn said the problem was with the political system in this country where “the Liberal, Labour and Conservative parties, were definitely completely and utterly dominated by the pro-Israeli lobby”.

And during the Q&A Abe Hayeem, of Architects for Palestinians, complained that “Jewish Media, specifically the JC and Jewish News, ingrain propaganda in the community”.

Philo was there to, basically, flog his new book More Bad News From Israel but spared the time to accuse Israel of having a “sophisticated propaganda system” which led to the BBC making inappropriate statements like “Israel’s attack on Hamas enters its second week” when it should be speaking of “Israel’s attack on the Palestinians”.

He spoke of the way the media portrayed Israel as just responding to rockets, but ignored Israel’s attacks in the previous three years and that “many children had been killed”.

As a consequence, said Philo, although the public had sympathy for the Palestinians they wanted the Palestinians to stop firing rockets at Israel. They were repeating the language of the news that Israel “had to respond”.

He quoted a woman in one of his focus groups who said:

“When I saw the pictures of the dead children, it was dreadful. I was in tears. But it didn’t make me feel that the Palestinians and Hamas were right. I think the Palestinians haven’t taken the chance to work towards a peaceful solution.”

Philo said it was like she was reading out the Israeli press material. Philo asked the interviewee afterwards what was the source of her beliefs and her reponse was “(BBC) Radio 4. Avid Radio 4 listener. I got it all from there”.

When Philo told her that it was Israel that broke the ceasefire before Operation Cast Lead and that Hamas had agreed to stop the rockets if the blockade was lifted she claimed, apparently quite affronted, “that can’t be so, I would have known that”.

He said the reason for the lack of truthful information in the media was the pressures that journalists, especially those at the BBC, were coming under. One said “We wait in fear of the phonecall from the Israelis. The only issue then is how high up from their organisation has it come and how high up our organisation it has gone.” He said that minutes before going on air journalists have been discussing words they are allowed to use.

“That is the level of tension inside the organisation. Journalists aren’t biased, but are just playing it safe,” he said.

Former BBC Middle East correspondent Tim Llewellyn, couldn’t wait to slag off his old employer. He had already written a Guardian piece that day accusing the BBC of “imbalance and distortion” over their “coverage of Israel and Palestine”. The piece is a rehash of his Guardian article of seven years ago. What fun around the dinner table Llewellyn must be!

His main complaint last night though was about the BBC’s Death in the Med which, he said, portrayed the Israeli soldiers who boarded the boat as acting in “self-defence” when they killed some of those on board the Mavi Marmara.

His talk was basically a rant about how the BBC didn’t properly address his complaints. He referred to one response from the BBC as a “tendentious piece of garbage”. Well, join the club, Tim!

He even felt sorry for Jeremy Bowen, the BBC’s current Middle East correspondent, who is also, apparently, constrained in what he is allowed to say:

“Short of defying their bosses at the BBC I cannot see what they can do. Defying their bosses means they will be shoved sideways or fired. The system is weighted against many BBC, ITV and other reporters. I can feel Jeremy Bowen’s pain as he is dancing around the basic question. If he has no courage to confront the BBC, then I despair.”

As for Bari Atwan, or Barry as he likes to be called, he really is “the special one”. He moaned about how BBC’s Newsnight kept mysteriously dropping him at the last minute for the likes of Bibi Netanyahu and Ehud Barak. Imagine that, Barry being dropped in favour of a world statesman! How low down can Newsnight get.

And, apparently, the Israel lobby even caused the BBC to stop him being referred to as a Middle East “Expert” or “Analyst” and he was targeted by said lobby for being the “most impressionable”. Talking about putting onself on a pedestal.

But then came his Hitler rant. To suggest that Jews might think him worse than Hitler really is a case of exaggerating his self-importance.

You can hear all this below and there are some photos of the protest outside Amnesty and a clip of Victoria Brittain summing up. In the clip she is referring to Abdullah Abul Rahma, who has recently been released from prison, and the village of Nabi Saleh and what happened there “last Friday”. She wants you to ask yourself why you didn’t see this on any TV screen. I have watched the clip (below) but cannot see anything that could possibly knock Al Qaeda, Libya, Syria or Bahrain out of the headlines.

But then, having been brainwashed by the Jewish Chonicle, I would say that wouldn’t I.

Counterintuitively, I came out of the meeting pleased that they were creating their own monster about Israel. Making people feel paranoid must be Israel’s latest weapon.

Peter Benenson was the founder of Amnesty.

Peter Benenson was the founder of Amnesty.

Pro-Israel activist outside Amnesty. MEMO is accused of supporting Hamas.

Pro-Israel activist outside Amnesty. MEMO is accused of supporting Hamas.

Audio of last night’s talks:

Greg Philo at Amnesty, 23rd May.

Tim Llewellyn at Amnesty, 23rd May.

Abdel Bari Atwan at Amnesty, 23rd May.

Q&A at Amnesty, 23rd May.

128 responses to “Abdel Bari Atwan at Amnesty: “I get worse coverage in the Jewish Chronicle than Hitler would!”

  1. I’ve been looking forward to this post. What a legend you are. Hard to imagine the blogosphere pre-Millett now.

  2. ‘What fun around the dinner table Llewellyn must be!’ – LOL! Arise Sir Richard Millett.

    You can read more about Llewellyn here http://hurryupharry.org/2011/05/16/the-wisdom-of-tim-llewellyn/

    What a strange, paranoid man.

  3. ‘We wait in fear of phone calls from the Israelis…’

    Erm, grow a pair? Frightened by a phone?

  4. Richard
    you are indispensable

  5. oh I think I forgot to subscribe – so once again – the world owes you Richard

  6. ” Those who disagree with MEMO , or indeed any aspect of the event , are of course welcome to attend and make their point in a reasonable way ” – Victoria Brittain .

    This comes as news as to any of the Pro-Israel supporters Who were trying to attend the meeting withour prior booking ( next time I will make sure I book ! ) even though We were texted from inside the meeting that there were plenty of spaces in the venue . At least two young Jews were refused entry by the organisers . The organisers messed Us arround saying We might be allowed in – then They said They were not allowing Us in after We had been standing around for 10 minutes – how powerful that must have made MEMO feel !

    We would have appreciated being made ” welcome to attend ” & would have been quite content to ” make their point in a reasonable way ” – but unfortunately the Organisers were to scared of any alternative viewpoint being aired to facilitate this !

  7. This is the same Abdel Bari Atwan who said proudly during a BBC R4 interview that it was his right to believe conspiracy theories if he wished.
    Says it all really

  8. richardmillett

    Oh, Babs, you should listen to the audio to hear all the conspiracy theories he was putting forward as to why he was having his appearances “scaled down” by the BBC. It is a masterpiece in creation. Like the BBC was, apparently, making up phantom complainers about him and most complaints about him came, suspiciously, only from America where the programmes he was on weren’t even shown!

  9. I don´t recall who gave the perfect description of this ventriloquist-dummy BBC- darling Atwan: “celebrity exterminationist”. So, he deserved to be treated as a mini-Hitler (and he even seems to want to look like him, with his ridiculous moustache).

  10. Daniel Marks

    Talking of “conspiracy theories” someone stuck up on the shul notice board a page showing the resemblance between Bin Laden’s compound and a map of Israel.

    http://www.tomgrossmedia.com/mideastdispatches/archives/001192.html

    While there does seem to be some similarity there, nobody explained how this is a conspiracy theory. Assuming that Bin Laden either searched for a house resembling the map, or redesigned it to so look, who exactly is conspiring with whom to do what?

    On an unrelated note Bibi was glorious spending 30 minutes explaining the existential dangers of a Palestinian State, then another 15 explaining that he was in favor of one anyway.

    The senators stood for 62 standing ovations and their getting up and sitting down like Jacks in boxes reminded me of the Yom Kippur prayers. He made one joke that nobody laughed at, anybody notice?

    • at Elder of Ziyon it was decided quite some time that it was coincidence, that that was just the most secluded peace of property he could get close to all the amenities. But if it is good for Israel, tell me and I find reasons galore to support the notion.

      Sleep well on your last night before the big day and don’t suffer too much tomorrow.

    • Daniel,

      I used to like Bibi. My favourite is now Moshe Feiglin. None better than him.

  11. and since Netanyahu is riding so high, here is a picture which makes me moan “oh to be young again” – If I’d knew how to I’d have cut of the other one.

    Bibi must have admirers galore the picture went viral it’s all over the net. If I were his wife I’d put him in chains as long as that one circulates.

    • Silke,

      Wow!! He was hot!!!! Eize chatich!!! Wallah!!! (Bibi I mean)
      But… I’ve had better.😉

  12. There’s something about Atwan. He comes across to me as a simpering kebab wallah with delusions of grandeur. And I suspect he secretly loves getting worse coverage than Hitler, who almost certainly is one of his heroes. He’s a man I love to hate and we can thank al-Beebzeera for parading this freak on a regular basis just to make all of us feel so much better about ourselves as human beings. After listening to Atwan, I know I occupy morally higher ground, in spite of everything else.
    Architects for Palestinians? What is this? Monty Python? How about Traffic Wardens for Palestinians? Or Farmers? Bricklayers? and so on. Why is it that only those from the ‘professions’ come out for the fakestinians? Is it that the working classes are more humane and less prone to irremediable corruption?

    • Sharon Klaff

      The the working classes belong to teh EDL and they are certainly not for any form of Islam be it Palestinains or any other kind. It seems there is an educational requirement for forming a body for Palestinians, the most esteemed in the hierarchy being lawyers and barristers.

  13. “When I saw the pictures of the dead children, it was dreadful. I was in tears. But it didn’t make me feel that the Palestinians and Hamas were right. I think the Palestinians haven’t taken the chance to work towards a peaceful solution.”
    Philo said it was like she was reading out the Israeli press material. Philo asked the interviewee afterwards what was the source of her beliefs and her reponse was “(BBC) Radio 4. Avid Radio 4 listener. I got it all from there”.

    ^^ I find that quite comforting, the media must not be as all-bad as we think it is.
    Of course, most of what the speakers said was utter cr**. Did they actually say it was a debate? Was there any opinion expressed other than that the media is biased towards Israel because they’re scared?

    Thanks for your report, Richard.

  14. Well done Richard and Martin (in the photo) and all who turned up there. Sounds like the usual parade on the stage of elderly bitter tossers and fawning, youthful wanabe Hamasniks in the audience.

    Not amazed they didn’t permit any pro Israel questions – they never do – they don’t have the confidence of their audience’s convictions – it wouldn’t do to get people thinking, would it?

  15. Sharon Klaff

    Thanks again Richard for an excellent report. And you Jonathan and also to those who made the posters and put the word out.

  16. Cityca

    “Sounds like the usual parade on the stage of elderly bitter tossers and fawning wannabee Hamas Niks in the audience ”

    I’m sure you have already discovered that those two defining images are entirely interchangeable

  17. jcwmoderator

    I’m not so sure that today’s Jewish Chronicle would have given Hitler such a bad press; after comparing settlements with toxic Japanese nuclear reactors, there really isn’t much further to go …

    • The JC has become a capo di capi. Just look at its blogs: every antisemite and Nazi sympathiser can post there freely. The lunatic Mills can insult and libel every Israeli supporter freely, and if you stand up to him you get expelled.

      • Leah,

        Precisely!! I still don’t know WHY some of us still read that shitty paper. They wrote a complete bullshit article on me, saying the EDL broke links with us, the JDIV, and as everyone can see, this neverhappened. They make their business from lies

    • Jcwmoderator,

      They did that??

  18. The ‘Amnesty’ panel ARE all clinically paranoid, that much is obvious. Can anyone really believe that these sorry dregs are mentally healthy?

    Wasn’t it Llewellyn who claimed that no major party in the UK has Fakistan supporters?

  19. Daniel Marks

    The Marks family spent a charming few days one summer in the Golan, hosted (very reasonably priced) by Michael Ben Horin, self declared president of the State of Judea and about as extreme as they come.

    On our last night sipping on home-made something or other, Ben Horin explained to me his philosophy. The man is an aeronautical engineer and nobody’s fool. He knows he’ll never lead Israel. He explained that his job is to make the moderate Israeli Right look good. They can point to me and say, “We’d like to be more flexible, but we have the crazies like Ben Horin to consider too.

    Such is the role of the EDL and Roberta Moore, who I have learned to respect and become quite fond of in recent days. If a Zionist speaker is talking and the Left or fundamentalist Moslems think of disrupting, there should be several nasty, chunky looking tattooed gentlemen there to put the fear of (our) G-d into them. If need be, the speaker should make it clear that he never invited the EDL along and disagrees with their behavior (nudge, nudge, wink, wink). Similarly if, hypothetically, some EDL members should disrupt an anti-Semitic speaker or just wait for him outside and kick his head in (steel tipped boots are always good) such actions must be squarely condemned by all official Jewish bodies.

    I know that it sounds like a rather thankless task, but that is the best service the EDL can provide the Jewish community as well as the future of Western Civilization. Nobody is going to award anyone knighthoods for their actions, but I do believe that both my grandchildren and theirs will be extremely proud and grateful one day.

    PS
    Leah, we’re not using that word anymore.

    • Daniel,

      [Similarly if, hypothetically, some EDL members should disrupt an anti-Semitic speaker or just wait for him outside and kick his head in (steel tipped boots are always good) such actions must be squarely condemned by all official Jewish bodies.]

      Hahahahahah!! You just gave me a brilliant idea (wink wink)😉

      EDL makes the CST look like pansies😉 If we had descended at the Amnesty on Monday, with a basic number of 50 people, neither the police or CST would be able to contain us. We would have stormed the building, and done our work before any copper got there. And no one would be able to go back into the building, at least not for the following 8 hours at least. The conference would have been totally disrupted.

      • richardmillett

        Please can we not talk about possibly breaching the law or bypassing the police.

  20. Is that the royal ‘we’, Mr Pomposity? I’ll use any words I like, with or without your permission.

  21. olehhadash

    Leah and Roberta, you are all piss and wind

    • you are all piss and wind

      I recently realized that my English insult-vocabulary is still quite meagre. Therefore I’d appreciate your explaining that one to me.

      Google says it is speech and no action – that explains the wind, we’d use that in a similar contact also but why the urine?

    • And you know that, snivelling kiddie, because …?

  22. Richard,

    We would not be breaking any law or bypassing any police in what I had in mind. Done it many times. Totally and utterly legal. This is why I say we have to have a meeting FFS! There are hundreds of legal things we can do which will work in our favour. We would just be using the system in our favour.

    We are law abiding citizens. We follow British law.😉

  23. olehhadash

    Roberta, there’s no such thing as British law. There’s English law and there’s Scottish law. So much for being a big English patriot. You are so full of it — you and the EDL.

    • Olehhadash

      There is no such thing as Oleh hadash, it’s Oleh Chadash.
      So much for you being an Israeli Immigrant. Can’t even spell.
      Now, you got any point to make or you just want to pick a fight with me? Got nothing better to do?

    • You are wrong, oh great and knowledgeable ignoramus. There is now UK law, e.g. that which was incorporated by virtue of the UK – not England, not the antisemitic socialist people’s republic of the sporran – being in the EU. It’s perfectly OK to call it British law for simplicity.
      You are so full it.

  24. Silke,

    [Roberta
    I don’t doubt your personal courage or prowess for one moment
    I just think it is a weapon that is too easily employed by them also]

    Ah, but we are better.😉

    • Roberta

      I don’t even doubt that –
      but selfish little me enjoys a good lecture and I am scared that by direct heckling you’ll keep the the good ones away from my reach together with the silly ones

      I think Daniel’s scenario is a lot more promising, provided I understood him right.

      • You enjoy lectures by antisemites? Ah well, everyone needs a hobby. At least you don’t live in a country where a council has just outed itself as straight down the line antisemitic.

      • Leah

        that Michael Oren and Dany Ayalon are antisemites is complete news to me.

        I’ve heard Michael Oren on several book tours and adore him and of the bit the hecklers at the LSE let me hear I probably would have liked Ayalon also quite a bit.

      • Roberta Moore

        Silke,

        Which one? The one about using the steel-cap boots to beat the Nazis to a pulp? hahaha😉
        Yeah, definitely more promising.

      • Roberta
        I understood Daniel so that he suggested that you create just a bit of an uncomfortable feeling like tapping the boot –

        I for one am such a coward that I’d immediately obey.

        BTW Vidal Sassoon that hairdresser who changed my life (vastly for the better) told the BBC that he wore and used boots in post-war Britain.

  25. olehhadash

    Yes, Roberta, there is no such thing as British law. When you can get that little fact right, you might be considered an English patriot. But until then, you are just a knuckle-dragging fascist.
    Oh, and in transliteration a chet can be represented by “h”, “ch” or even “kh”.

    • Oleh chadash is 2 words, you impotent spittle-flecked fascist.

    • You are wrong, oh great and knowledgeable ignoramus. There is now UK law, e.g. that which was incorporated by virtue of the UK – not England, not the antisemitic socialist people’s republic of the sporran – being in the EU. It’s perfectly OK to call it British law for simplicity.
      You are so full it.

    • Roberta Moore

      Listen you moronic idiot, I could not give a damn about what YOU believe to be “fact”. And I could not give a shit if YOU consider me an English patriot or not. I am Brazilian to start with, so you can get your head from your blow hole and STFU.
      CHET is spelled CH or KH. NEVER with H. H is HEH, you idiot! Learn how to spell. At least I speak 5 languages fluently and 2 quite well. You can’t even spell one right. So, don’t try to teach me Hebrew, as I already know.

      Now return back to your insignificance. No one rattled your cage.

  26. olehhadash

    Leah, when you call people spittle-flecked fascists, are you looking in the mirror? Does it remain intact? Another numpty fascist friend of the EDL. Where do your talents start?

  27. olehhadash

    Oh, and Roberta and Leah, if anyone’s a Kapo, it’s you lot — after all, you are helping the Nazi EDL.

    • “we” have decided that we don’t use the word any longer because there are much better and more apt ones.

    • Roberta Moore

      Olehhadash

      Yeah, and the “Nazi” EDL is helping Jews. WTF are you doing for us? Can’t you keep your hands busy with something else?

    • Piss off, pond scum, to your mates in the Nazi BDS.

  28. Daniel Marks

    Hi Oleh Jadash (Spanish spelling to avoid the linguistic dispute),

    Welcome to this excellent blog and also, apparently, to the Land of Israel. You have done a wonderful thing by choosing to live your life here, and please G-d your offspring will be eternally grateful.

    Maybe I am mistaken, but I suspect that you aren’t really here to argue about the roots of UK/English law or even transliterations. Reading between the lines I’m guessing that you also have some criticism that you wish to make regarding the EDL. I, for one, would be very interested to hear that critique, but might I suggest that it would be easier to understand if you were to clearly spell it out in language that we all understand.

    I, like Silke, am not wholly au fait with modern slang usage such as “piss and wind” “knuckle-dragging”. I’ve been away from the UK for many years, and if such expressions existed when I was a lad, I guess I never came across them.

    Finally, as Silke has mentioned, there has been a general agreement between the more cultured commentators on this blog not to refer to each other using the word Kapo or other Nazi terminology. Leah has been unable to control herself in this matter, though I suspect that this may be the least of the good lady’s problems.

    Might I recommend that you exercise restraint in this matter, you might wish to refer to the last comments of the previous page.

    https://richardmillett.wordpress.com/2011/05/15/naqba-day-extremists-spew-hate-outside-israeli-embassy/#comment-8048

    Daniel

    • The only problem I have is that I have to be in the company of self-important, sanctimonhious, self-deluding ‘cultured’ idiots like you if I want to visit this blog.

  29. Roberta Moore

    Silke,

    Leah was talking about lectures by anti-Semite scum, not Ayalon or those of his ilk.

    After we met Gavri Bargil (The dhimmi Jew), and came back from the lecture at LSE, we wrote a small piece here before we forgot what had happened.

    http://morrigandunn.blogspot.com/2010/05/israeli-embassy-in-london-is-playing.html

    • You see, Silke and Daniel? Roberta gets it. You might get it too, if you only tried harder to read what I actually said.

  30. Roberta Moore

    Here is a good piece on Commies/UAF/SWP et all… long but very detailed.
    This is why we should despise these people. They are not only racist to the core but ignoramuses.

    http://theenglishdefenceleagueextra.blogspot.com/2011/05/uafswp-is-racist-and-neo-colonialist.html

  31. Roberta Moore

    Silke,

    [Roberta
    I understood Daniel so that he suggested that you create just a bit of an uncomfortable feeling like tapping the boot]

    LOL!! Tapping? I think Daniel would be a bit braver than that.

    [BTW Vidal Sassoon that hairdresser who changed my life (vastly for the better) told the BBC that he wore and used boots in post-war Britain.]

    Maybe I should get a pair of those that VS worn in those days.. I heard the fashion is returning again, and I love vintage stuff. heheeh

  32. Roberta

    how’s that for effective action? Is it doable? You are the one who knows the venues. Maybe you there you can’t surround the protesters but that chanting thing sounds great to me.

    The highlight of the day was Prime Minister Netanyahu, who was warmly greeted by enthusiastic delegates and also interrupted several times by protestors who managed to get inside. This year, however, the crowd around the protesters wisely stood to block the media’s view and chanted “Bibi, Bibi…” to drown out the protesters. Netanyahu himself noted “do you think they have these protests in Gaza?”

    http://elderofziyon.blogspot.com/2011/05/report-from-aipac-day-two-bruce.html

    • Silke,

      Passive fighting is not fighting at all.
      Aggresive defence is more my style. It’s what works.😉

      • what about the martial arts? don’t some claim that the take the energy of the aggressor and redirect it against him/herself?

        Is that passive fighting?

        I am a physical coward if ever there was one but I’d guess that combinations work best. From all I’ve learned about military campaigns over the last years feints, attacks from the rear, attacks to the flanks, attacks at unforeseen strongholds and last not least frontal attack have all had their uses and should be distributed amongst the interested according to their best talents.

        Physical cowardice for example might prove useful in a hit and run needle prick specialist or be indispensable in somebody feigning a feint.

        I remember a lovely book from ages ago “Watership Down” – in it the feeble brother, suffering from fits and premonitions, in the long run proved as indispensable to the eventual success of the group as the strong warrior leader brother did.

  33. Daniel Marks

    Regarding the very interesting discussion pertaining to the correct transliteration of the Hebrew letter ח, I must confess that though I generally have used ch, I too was under the impression that h was also correct. I thought I recalled someone telling me that while English prefer the ch, US transliterations often make use of the h.

    On the one hand the general sound made by the h in English as in say “hat” is much closer to the ח than the ch of “chat”, but on the other hand the ch already enjoys occasional usage in English in words such as loch.
    Interestingly, the gh was originally with just that sound in middle English and Dutchmen even today pronounce knight as kenicht or something similar. As I have said the Spanish make frequent use of the letter j, though neither of these have, to the best of my knowledge have never been suggested in English transliteration of Hebrew.

    Returning to the point in hand, while I was under the impression that h does the job as well as ch, I have been able to find little academic evidence to support this conviction. Though I do take note of the fact that Hadera, Holon, Haifa and most are indeed all spelt with an H, I suppose it could be argued that Haifa is not really a transliteration but an English name of the city, similar to Jerusalem or Jericho both of which are spelt with J rather than y.

    Finally, I found no evidence for the English-US distinction that I had suggested, indeed, a cursory glance at an Art Scroll prayer reveals a clear preference for usage of the ch rather than h in every occasion.
    That’s about it. If this were a rabbinic ruling I’d likely say that while ch seems more acceptable usage, those who prefer h do, in my opinion, have a leg on which to stand.

    I thank both Roberta and oleh hadash for the opportunity to waste 30 minutes contemplating a quite delightful topic.

    • Daniel

      me thinks I have finally come across something really amiss in the Anglo-language. As best I know they make the “mistake” of pronouncing “ch” at the beginning always as “tsch” thus having no spelling left to pronounce it as in loch. Something needs to be created.😉

      But much more interesting from your little essay is that I got the impression that the Hebrew Letter is pronounced in Hebrew as somewhere between CH and H i.e. with more air in it as in “ch” and less “ch” in it as in “h”. Unfortunately I almost never see Hebrew transliterations in German media.

      I will listen hard during the next Latma TV and try to find out whether I’ve learned something. Your mentioning the Spanish habit of translittering it into “J” is also very helpful since the sound of Spanish saying José is very familiar to me.

    • Shalom Daniel!

      The ch in “chat” is not the same as the ch in loch, which is a Scottish word for lake.😉

      Now, regarding the Spanish J, which sounds like ch, in Ladino it does not. The J in Ladino is J.

      So H cannot ever replace ch. Not linguistically and definitely not “kabbalistically” as both letters have different numerical values.

      Those city names were transliterated in that manner just in case Westerners said Chaifa (using the same ch as in chat) instead of Haifa. Or Cholon instead of Holon… (which would be quite funny)

      Hebrew is all about root words. Get one letter wrong, then everything will also be wrong.

      [I thank both Roberta and oleh hadash for the opportunity to waste 30 minutes contemplating a quite delightful topic.]

      LOL!! It can’t be that delightful if you “wasted” 30 precious minutes of your life. hahaha
      I am beginning to love your posts.

  34. Daniel; Hadera, Holon, Haifa- not to mention Hebron. Or is that perhaps the Anglicised version of the word as if it were transliteration, it should be Chevron?
    As you say USA usage of H is common, such as in Hannukah. But maybe this is because Americans cannot pronounce the Ch and actually do pronounce it Hannukah. In Ireland the gh is still used to denote the ch sound, as in Lough rather than Loch. Yet my Norn Irish daughter in law still can’t pronounce Hummus (there is another one always written with an H) properly as Chummus.
    This snarling image of a frequently seen Islamist protestor who was given the sobriquet Rage boy is what pops up in my head when I read Roberta and Leah’s comments- they are the mirror image
    http://doctorbulldog.wordpress.com/2007/07/05/rage-boy-speaks-says-i-am-really-angry/
    Bizzare that Leah feels free to throw her toys out the pram to the extent of saying to the owner of this blog who is surely entitled to run his blog the way he chooses.
    “Is that the royal ‘we’, Mr Pomposity? I’ll use any words I like, with or without your permission.”

    Richard is more saintly than your average blog host.

    • amie

      I’d like to differ between Roberta and Leah (see previous thread)

      I think Leah’s “Mr. Pomposity” is aimed at Daniel rather than at Richard (again see previous thread where this “insult” first cropped up, the throwing around of which in my book shows a lack of familiarity with the finer arts of verbal fencing which IMHO are Daniel’s sometimes infuriating but never pompous forte.)

      • Daniel is pompous almost all the time. You would have grasped this had you been au fait with the finer points of the English language and how it uses shades of style to convey such pomposity.
        Incidentally, I have also called him smug, condescending and so on. But in any case, repeating a description (it’s not an ‘insult’, as it’s entirely factual) on occasions when it’s merited has nothing to do with ‘lack of familiarity’ etc.

      • Leah

        thanks for mentioning it, but bear with me, I work on my English every day and pride myself that I am despite my advanced age still making good progress.

        But of course I confess to being guilty of unadulterated presumptuousness. How can a non-native speaker dare to read and let alone comment on an exclusively native speaker comprehension level blog.

    • Amie, do try to concentrate. I was replying to Daniel’s snotty rebuke, as though he were my father, my headmaster and my king rolled into one.

      • father headmaster king

        how I would have loved to have had a father capable of all that

        (and how I would have fought with him and hopefully while fighting the fight have come into my own with a lot less pain than children without such a capable sparring partner have to experience)

      • [My father, my headmaster and my king rolled into one.]

        Sounds like an Islamic view of what father is.😉

    • Amie,

      Leah was joking. Haven’t you guys got any sense of humour for G-d’s sake? 😉

  35. When I said bizzarre, a better word is Chutzpah (with a Ch)

  36. Daniel; Might there be a case for the use of H or Ch to differentiate between the Het and the Chaf which is present in Mizrachi pronounciation?

    I am sure there must be material on this by proper linguists rather than amateur musers such as us, seeking light relief from the ferocity of some of the posts here.

    • Daniel Marks

      Hi amie,

      That thought crossed my mind too. Years ago in our European synagogue we had a Yemenite gabba (synagogue warden) who asked us to make more effort to distinguish between the Chaf and the Chet when reading the Torah aloud. We all looked at each other in disbelief as this was the first time we had learned that such a distinction exists.

      That case notwithstanding it is queer how one sometimes learns so late in life truths that everyone else seems to already know. I was recently called condescending and patronizing on this excellent blog, but only after consulting with a friend did I confirm that these were intended to be an affront.

      I thank good friends for rushing to my defense, but actually have no objection to being called by the name Mr Pomposity, especially if by so doing and generally raging at one and all, its charming composer is able to alleviate her stress and anxiety issues, ostensibly related to involuntary celibacy.

      • my decades of office experience have convinced me that contrary to male wishful thinking involuntary celibacy is a lot less harmful to the female disposition than having to wake up next to the wrong guy morning after morning after morning.

      • Daniel evidently has no idea what the word ‘ostensibly’ means. Let’s send him a kiddie’s dictionary.
        I am neither celibate, not anxious, nor stressed. You really need to stop sniffing that glue, it has strong hallucinatory properties.

      • Daniel

        So did you learn now the difference between Chaf and Chet?😉

  37. Daniel Marks

    Judging by early descriptions of the Silke of yesteryear (Marlene Dietrich, etc) I would respectfully challenge your expertise and the extent of your experience in the area of involuntary celibacy.

    Regarding “waking up next to the wrong guy in the morning” I can hardly comment. While in basic training I was once rudely awakened when a confused fellow in arms, having finished his guard duty, attempted to bed himself in the wrong tent, but I was persuaded that this was wholly unintentional and nothing more was said of the matter.

    • Daniel

      I made my living most of the time in what may be adequately called a chicken pool. If there should be surviving cases of virgo intacta in their lets say twenties in Germany I don’t remember having met any. That’s why I understood celibacy as defined here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celibacy

      And though I could say a lot on the subject from my to me at least very interesting life story I was for once referring to the state of mind my celibate or non-celibate colleagues were displaying on the job. Willingness to compromise, to forgive, to be laid back was much more common amongst those who didn’t have to cope with a male at home whom they considered disappointing.

      Actually the amount of displeasure my colleagues used to vent about their partners always amazed me especially when I contrasted it to how they pitied me on occasion for not having one of my own.

      For the record:
      Of course I also had colleagues who genuinely liked the guy they lived with and they were the most pleasant to be around and to work with.

      and again for the record:
      I tried co-habitation more than once, not my cup of tea, if I had been rich enough to afford separate bath rooms, separate kitchens and lots of other separate space (in that order and no, not bedrooms) I might have managed.

      • A new monk arrives at the monastery. He is assigned to help the other monks in copying the old texts by hand. He notices, however, that they are copying copies, and not the original books.

        So, the new monk goes to the head monk to ask him about this. He points out that if there was an error in the first copy, that error would be continued in all of the other copies. The head monk says, “We have been copying from the copies for centuries, but you make a good point, my son.”

        So, he goes down into the cellar with one of the copies to check it against the original. Hours later, nobody has seen him. So, one of the monks goes downstairs to look for him. He hears sobbing coming from the back of the cellar and finds the old monk leaning over one of the original books crying. He asks what’s wrong.

        “The word is celebrate not celibate,” says the old monk with tears in his eyes.

      • yes roger
        waking up into a warm embrace and to a glance into well-meaning eyes certainly is the best this world has on offer for a start into a new day.

  38. Silke: It was clearly directed at Richard’s “we” and followed directly after Richard’s plea: As I say, Chutzpah to come into someone’s domain and then spit in the face of his polite request and throw your weight around in his domain.

    richardmillett | May 25, 2011 at 2:38 pm |
    Please can we not talk about possibly breaching the law or bypassing the police.

    Leah | May 25, 2011 at 2:18 pm | Reply
    Is that the royal ‘we’, Mr Pomposity? I’ll use any words I like, with or without your permission.

    • amie

      I disagree but then the previous thread is still so present in my mind that I find it hard to imagine that the title is now extended to Richard also who strikes me as about the most considerate and well-behaved man active in the blogosphere.

      If Leah meant to extend it to Richard she sure owes him an apology and if not an explanation would be de rigueur.

  39. ps Silke: you make a lot of very wise observations about the state of mind of celibate women vs those with the wrong guy.

    Daniel: And did your gabba point out the difference in Mizrachi Ivrit between Alef and Ayin? The latter if pronounced correctly sounds like a goat being strangled.

  40. Not entirely OT ……and it’s not about Marmite….at least not directly…..but Pat Condell’s latest video is interesting. I’ve always liked Pat and his forthright defiance of the Islamonazis and their leftylib allies, but he has erred badly sometimes regarding Israel. He is an atheist and a ferocious critic of organised religion. Well, in this video he has finally come out in full support of Israel and the Jewish people, acknowledging that Jerusalem belongs to them, although he makes one mistake here, which is that he fails to understand that Jerusalem is inseparable from the Jewish faith. It exists because of it.

  41. My comment about the royal ‘we’ was a reply to Daniel’s post, specifically to this:
    “Leah, we’re not using that word anymore.”
    Why do so many people have reading comprehension issues?

  42. Oh well then Richard escapes your wrath for his use of the royal we. It’s not a matter of comprehension issues, but a lack of the necessary dedication required to maintain close textual attention to the cumulative meaning of your string of Rage posts.

  43. Daniel Marks

    Hi Leah,

    Ostensibly is a not uncommon adverb, its meaning being similar to apparently, seemingly, supposedly, outwardly, on the surface, etc.

    http://www.thefreedictionary.com/ostensibly

    As a high ranking member of the English Defense League I would invite the lovely Roberta to offer her expert opinion. If ever English needed defending, it is against the likes of those who choose to drag the language of Shakespeare and the tongue of Chaucer into debate as a contemptible way of seeking , albeit unsuccessfully, to score “points”.

    Though, thankfully, I have not had occasion to meet you personally your “writing” offers many indications of a lady struggling with involuntary celibacy. Because I did not know this to be a certain fact I qualified my intimation with the word “ostensibly”, such caution may well have been redundant.

    Seemingly irrational anger and picking unlikely arguments especially directed against casual male acquaintances are common symptoms of female Incel, though as I have indicated I am not qualified to offer any kind of treatment or counseling.

    After having determined not to waste any further time in communication with your excellent self I stupidly let my resolve slip, but refuse to henceforth be drawn into any kind of verbal altercations or slugging matches. To paraphrase Ellis Feigenbaum, you may have many problems Leah, but I am most definitely not one of them. Clear enough?

    • oh Daniel no

      are you trying to imply

      I am not qualified to offer any kind of treatment or counseling.

      that there are no eligible bachelors in your circle of friends and acquaintances?

  44. Roberta Moore

    Silke,

    [what about the martial arts? don’t some claim that the take the energy of the aggressor and redirect it against him/herself?]

    Absolutely. I have a black belt in Kung Fu, and won a championship back in Brazil when I was 16, I had to fight 1 girl and 2 guys. But I yearn to learn a bit of Krav Maga. I think I will rethink my moves and add a bit of creativity, adding a few moves of Krav Maga (Which I am teaching myself at the moment).

    I have offered to teach a few EDL guys some moves too, so at least they won’t be caught by surprise, but it’s hard to convince some to learn, as they believe strength is better than technique. I disagree however.

    [Is that passive fighting?] – Not quite the passive fighting you mean I think. I believe the best form of defence is attack in certain circumstances but I never give the first punch.
    My dad used to say I give one bull not to get into a fight (due to my restraint) but that I give 10 bulls not to leave the fight (once I start it). The adrenaline of it is addictive. My dad saw me fight before and joined the same Kung Fu academy where I was training.🙂 My colleagues used to call me “The Shao Lin Princess”. hahahahah

    • Roberta

      you are so different from me how I envy Daniel for the occasion to meet with you in real life. You sound like the ideal big sister I should have had almost 70 years ago.

      Somehow I expect you and Daniel to come up with some great ideas during some brain storming sessions where the brains will be really storming.

      • Roberta Moore

        Silke,

        My dear we can always meet. I always travel to Germany. As I said some of my best friends live there. Next time I am around I will drop you a line.😉
        Would love to meet you too. xx

  45. Roberta Moore

    The English language has changed a lot from ancient times. Now we use several adapted words in our vocabulary.
    From the moment I heard kids call a good looking girl or boy “buff”, I lost hope.

    Real English is Aenglish and that language is nearly dead now….

  46. Daniel Marks

    Hi Silke,

    As someone commented last night, we do have some homosexual friends, but they are never allowed into our “inner circles”.

    Good golly Roberta!

    “From the moment I heard kids call a good looking girl or boy “buff”, I lost hope.” –

    If the English Defense League has despaired on trying to defend English, what are the rest of us to do?

    By the way, my mate Nick thinks you’re a bit “buff” yourself.

    • Roberta Moore

      Daniel,

      LOL!! Maybe I used to be “buff” when I was younger but now… losing hope too.🙂

  47. Daniel
    you guys – ts ts ts – one track minds and at your age

    When Roberta told me about her Kung Fu prowess the word tomboy came to mind – I am not sure though which Anglosphere author I got it from. My first guess would be Agatha Christie but I am not sure at all.

    Maybe Nick could help?

    I’ve always longed to be the tomboy kind of girl i.e. the one who fearlessly rides wild horses climbs cherry trees and knows how to sail a boat – alas I wasn’t the right material for it.

    • Roberta Moore

      Silke,

      I grew up with Conan Magazines and old Kung Fu films. What do you expect?
      No one bullied me at school and I always defended the bullied ones even when I didn’t know them. Had my first fight when I was 8, against a silly 8 year old boy at school, who came to pester me during my gymnastic classes. After that, my reputation was established. Hahah!

      • so I was right to imagine you as the ideal elder sister to have😉

        I’ll make it an early night – sweet dreams to y’all

  48. Daniel Marks

    Tomboy is not an unusual word and some scientific study has been carried out regarding the phenomenon. When I was a lad Nicky Goldstein (a lass) was one of my best friends, my confidante and without doubt a bit of a tomboy. She grew up to be a beautiful young lady, wife, mother, etc and when I last met her about a year ago seemed thoroughly “cured”.

    Regarding Nick’s “being able to help”, I would advise the lady in question not to hold her breath waiting, but rather to put on her shortest, tightest, reddest cocktail dress to go to a London pub when it’s late and her potential prey are quite intoxicated and to hope for the best, but prepare for the worst.

  49. Atwan is notorious for his giddiness at the thought of the nuclear annihilation of Israel: “If the Iranian missiles strike Israel, by Allah, I will go to Trafalgar Square and dance with delight.” Feel the love.

    http://frontpagemag.com/2011/05/27/complicity-in-propaganda/2/

    • Roger,

      Yes, he did make that statement. I so wished someone would question him about it…

    • at least he is open about his feelings – in lots of podcasts I hear I’d swear that describing all the terrible stuff threatening Israel makes the pundit feel all warm and fuzzy with delight.

      Even though Anglos needed to introduce the German Schadenfreude since their language apparently lacked the word those pundits certainly don’t lack enjoying imagining that they’ll soon have a reason for experiencing that special version of Joy.

      how we manage to soil everything

  50. Daniel Marks

    Hi Roger,

    How did we get from tight red cocktail dresses to Atwan? Does he cross-dress?

    On a related note, some of the wife’s American relatives are getting married here (Jaffa) in a few months and have invited us to come to the “rehearsal” as well.

    I have made it clear that I shall only be in attendance if I’m allowed to play the bride – just for once I should like to wear white!

    • I’d have no objection provided you do it in ankle spraining Israel designed high heels

      http://fashionisrael.wordpress.com/tag/israeli-shoe-design/

      • … and of course put the video of your walking in them online with close ups from your ankles on upwards of all the joints 😉

        oh and use of crutches is not allowed of course

      • Daniel Marks

        I’m very tall and thus have no need for high heels. There was a time in the 70s when we were all wearing platforms, but that seems like a lifetime away.

      • Daniel
        this chickening out excuse is not compatible with being an IDF-veteran …

        think of all the support you’d give to the Israeli shoe designers …

        seriously they come up with stuff that if I were still in my 20s they’d be the must-have shoes for me, not what I saw hyped around Sex in the City, that is same ol’, only with higher heels, very beautiful but also yawn!, the real fun stuff I see these days is out of Israel.

        and yes Plateaus – the soles of my favourites had beautiful flowers painted on and combined really well with those velvet hot pants I liked so much …

        Maybe not ladylike but very teasing in a self-deprecatory fun way …

    • I can just imagine Atwan in a red cocktail dress..tight too. He does remind me of Eddie Izzard…..without the jokes. Although Atwan could hack it as a stand-up for 5 minutes just spouting his nonsense. Playing up the hysteria should get a few laughs. The complete lack of irony could wear thin pretty fast though.

  51. The use of crutches by the cross dressing male bride in high heels would give the whole spectacle a beautifully perverse Bunuelian touch. Seen Viridiana?

    • no – sadly I can’t indulge in stuff that is too nightmarish and I once managed about 10 minutes Bunuel on TV and decided he certainly is.

      Could we compromise on allowing Daniel to hobble back on crutches?

  52. Daniel Marks

    Roberta,

    Do EDL ladies wear red cocktail dresses too or is it mostly the leather jacket and jeans thing?

    • Daniel

      During our demos we dress casual, in case we need to fight. Wouldn’t be able to fight well in High heels now, would we?
      But at our social gatherings and conferences, all is valid.
      Talking of which, I shall be in France in July with Pamela Geller, Robert Spencer, Bat Ye’or, etc… in a conference where we will be speaking about the counter-jihad movement. Maybe I shall buy a nice red cocktail dress to wear on the day. Despite the fact that red is my favourite colour, it is also the colour of war.😉

      • but Roberta
        Emma Peel fought in high heels or didn’t she?

        well she couldn’t very well for this job (he would have heard her on the ladder) but on other occasions?

      • OMG Emma Peel….my first crush

  53. ‘Maybe I shall buy a nice red cocktail dress to wear on the day.’

    Please no, I am sure you have heard of the saying ‘mutton dressed as…….’

    • which reminds me of

      Le Renard et les Raisins
      lafontaine.net/lesFables/imprimeFable.php?id=54&ill=

      enjoy!