Beware the monster being created by the anti-Israel Lobby.

There are worrying developments in this country’s anti-Israel lobby. Maybe it is the continuing strength of Israel both militarily and economically while the Boycott Divestment and Sanctions movement is having limited, if any, success.

But while Israel and many Israelis continue to prosper, even more so in light of the upcoming change in the law of universal jurisdiction which will make it harder to arrest an Israeli official on allegations of war crimes, Diaspora Jews are still a target.

One might disagree with Israeli policies but what we think is irrelevant. We do not live there and so do not suffer the same threats as Israeli Jews.

Similarly, one would not expect Israeli Jews to advise UK Jews. Only those that live in a country can truly judge the appropriate action to take.

And Hasbarah is easy anyway. We all understand the history of the conflict. We know that Jews have a right to a sovereign state in the Middle East and that the Palestinians have a right to one also. The job may be big but that is no bar to trying to explain Israel’s position to office colleagues, friends and television audiences.

The main problem comes when you are attacked for what you are, a Jew, not what you think. Instead of being able to respond constructively the only response you are left with, apart from being left open-mouthed, is denial.

MP Gerald Kaufman claimed this year that rich Jews controlled the Conservative Party. Martin Linton, Chair of Labour Friends of Palestine, said that Israel’s “tentacles” were controlling our political system. Both accusations could be straight out of the The Protocols of the Elders of Zion.

And, on seventh night of Chanukah the Palestine Solidarity Campaign (PSC) staged Seven Jewish Children at the Polish Centre in Hammersmith. The choice of venue for this outrageous play seems particularly cruel when considering the plight of Jews in Poland during the Holocaust. The production is full of horrendous accusations about Jews.

I saw it at the Royal Court last year and felt uneasy amidst an applauding London audience. The show lasts 10 minutes and uses seven short acts to portray how the Jews have turned from being killed during the Holocaust into the killers themselves during Operation Cast Lead.

According to the play Jews are biblically driven, think of Palestinians as “filth” and “animals”, justify the killing of Palestinian babies to their own children and enjoy swimming in nice pools while the Palestinians become dehydrated.

There may be some Jews who think like this, Baruch Goldstein was an example, but to imply that all Jews do is racist. However, the play is available for anyone to put on for free, including in schools.

On the fifth night of Chanukah, Abdel Bari Atwan, editor of a London-based Arabic newspaper, gave a talk at LSE and allegedly pointed at Jewish students and accused them of bombing Gaza. In 2007 Atwan stated that he would “dance with delight” if Israel was hit by Iranian missiles. Imagine someone pointing at Muslim students while shouting they are all suicide bombers. That person would be accused of inciting religious hatred.

My suspicion, which may be wrong, is that the PSC came to the Polish centre via Ewa Jasiewicz, a Polish anti-Israel activist. During the summer Jasiewicz visited the Warsaw Ghetto and helped to daub “Free Gaza and Palestine” on the walls of one of the Ghetto houses in, what could be considered, a crude attempt to equate the Palestinians with the Jews under the Nazis. The Ghetto is now considered a grave to the 100,000 Jews that perished there.

More recently, the PSC and Middle East Monitor invited Richard Falk, the United Nations Human Rights Council’s representative to the Palestinian territories, to London to give a talk on Israel’s assault on human rights.

Yet, it was the same Falk who, in 2008, said that Israel’s treatment of Gaza was a “Holocaust in the making”.

Criticising Israeli policy is one thing but comparing the Palestinians with the fate of the Jews during the Holocaust and accusing today’s Jews of condoning the killing of babies while justifying it to their own children is another.

This will only lead to dangerous repercussions elsewhere. During the summer I had to intervene after seeing a Jewish teenager violently attacked by a Muslim teenager. Britain’s anti-Israel lobby should beware the monster it is helping to create.

(This piece appears in the latest edition of The Jewish News)

63 responses to “Beware the monster being created by the anti-Israel Lobby.

  1. Another extremely thoughtful posting Richard. I’m sure that within 24 hours it will have deteriorated into one more slagging off match, so let’s savor the moment until Yoni arrives.

    Like a dentist I shall ignore all the good teeth and focus on the holes, in other words I shall discuss only the point that I find it hardest to agree with.

    “Criticizing Israeli policy is one thing but comparing the Palestinians with the fate of the Jews during the Holocaust and accusing today’s Jews of condoning the killing of babies while justifying it to their own children is another.”

    “This will only lead to dangerous repercussions elsewhere. During the summer I had to intervene after seeing a Jewish teenager violently attacked by a Muslim teenager.”

    Firstly, more power to you for intervening. It is of people like you that last weeks parsha writes:

    “He (Moses) saw an Egyptian beating a Hebrew, one of his own people. 12 Looking this way and that and seeing no man, he killed the Egyptian and hid him in the sand.”

    Obviously, I’m not suggesting killing anyone, but the Emek Hadavar suggests that when Moses looked around there were other people watching. There were just no “men”.

    My problem is with the simple cause and effect relationship that you imply between anti-Israel opinions being expressed and Jews being attacked. If the attacker had been a Left-wing Christian moved by the play or someone of his like, I could understand. In the case of a Moslem youth, it’s hard for me to believe that he had to go to the Polish Centre in Hammersmith to learn to hate Jews. Among the hundreds of other anti-Jewish verses he learned as a child was:

    “Those who reject (Truth of One God), among the People of the Book and among the Polytheists, will be in Hell-Fire, to dwell therein. They are the worst of creatures.”

    I don’t know if the Koran is at fault or the way it’s interpreted and taught. It hardly matters. Any Moslem youth who went to the play hated us long before entering the auditorium.

    I wish I had a solution, but firstly as you correctly say, “..one would not expect Israeli Jews to advise UK Jews” and secondly I don’t believe a solution exists. The Moslem population of Europe and the UK in particular is growing both in numbers, strength and in self-confidence.

    The Anglo-Jewish, on the other hand, though wonderful, is a shrinking ageing community, apparently largely politically apathetic. Nobody else in the UK seems particularly interested in confronting the problem except for fringe Right Wing groups that Anglo-Jewry wouldn’t be seen dead with.

    Know that our thoughts and prayers are with you always. I only wish we had more to offer.

    • “I’m sure that within 24 hours it will have deteriorated into one more slagging off match, so let’s savor the moment until Yoni arrives”

      As should be clear by now to everyone with a milligram of brain inside his skull it is DM who instigates all the slanging matches. I hadn’t even seen this thread yet until now. The very first paragraph of the very the first post in response, is – you guessed it – a personal attack on me by the antisemitic, draft-dodging parasite DM.
      For as long as he persists in his personal attacks on me – you listening, parasite? – I will continue telling him to fuck off.

  2. The Muslim Destroy Israel Lobby and the Far Left Destroy Israel Lobby (How I hate the terms Left and Right as particularly irrelevant to the Israel/Palestine/Arab conflict), who take their lead from the Muslims, relate to the Holocaust is several contradictory ways. Three stand out. I remember once receiving a anti Israel rant with all three.

    Holocaust Denial: Western guilt is sometimes used to explain both the creation of Israel and continuing failure to destroy it in favour of the Palestinians. Therefore the Holocaust didn’t happen – it’s all a plot by the evil Jooos Zionists to fool the world and extort money/support/recognition.
    Holocaust Equivalence: This takes a number of forms.
    The Holocaust did happen but:
    (a) Palestinians had nothing to do with it, (BTW they did) and shouldn’t be punished by having to accept a Jewish state.
    (b) the holocaust/continuing genocide against the Palestinians by Israel cancels it out. (How the Palestinians can simultaneously be enduring genocide and have among the highest rate of population increase of any group is never explained)
    (c) in the most modern variation does not belong exclusively to the Jews and must be remembered with every other ‘holocaust’ especially that of the Palestinians. This becomes a form of Denial when Muslims refuse to take part in Holocaust commemoration if the Palestinian ‘holocaust’ isn’t given equal time.
    Holocaust Support: in its Fascist and Islamic variations.
    (a) Fascist: Hitler should have finished the job because Jooos are evil
    (self explanatory),
    (b) Islamic: The Holocaust was Allah’s punishment for the crimes the Jews would do in the future to the Palestinians. (This temporal displacement is easier to understand if you remember that Mohammed was, according to Islam, not the first Muslim prophet but the last after the preceding Old and New Testament prophets, all of whom were actually Muslims).

    Given the ease that supposedly educated, supposedly intelligent, supposedly ‘not antisemitic but only criticising Israel’s actions’ British members of the Destroy Israel Lobby accept these mental gymnastics I, too have little hope.

  3. Richard: we are in complete agreement – ‘Jews have a right to a sovereign state in the Middle East and that the Palestinians have a right to one also’.

    What should concern us is that the continued settlement expansion in Judea and Samaria is rendering the establishment of a viable Palestinian state increasingly difficult if not impossible.

    An aside: you will be interested to read this account which I received from a PSC contact
    http://www.theatlanticwire.com/opinions/view/opinion/Protesters-and-Police-Clash-in-Tunisia-Following-Self-Immolation-6338

    • RT:

      What should concern us is that the continued settlement expansion in Judea and Samaria is rendering the establishment of a viable Palestinian state increasingly difficult if not impossible.

      You’re barking up the wrong tree: ain’t nobody here that cares about the settlement issue, it’s completely ignored. Millett himself considers the settlements ‘immovable’ (and ‘not settlements’ anyway), despite paying weak lip service to a Palestinian state, presumably to be created on Mars.
      David Guy claims he’s a ‘minority in Israel’ but he’s clearly not a minority of one: Herr Lieberman once again proclaimed that a Palestinian is basically forbidden. Guy may be no more than a nutcase with a website but Lieberman is the Foreign Minister of the Zionist Entity.

      Israel will not stop settling and is steaming full steam ahead towards fully fledged Grand Apartheid… which will be its own unraveling. David Guy and assorted nincompoops will then have only themselves to blame… Millett will of course blame the ‘Israel-haters’… except it’s not them who have been frittering away Palestinian land for over 40 years now. Oh, that and Hamas, of course…

      • I agree with Gert here. I’m also not convinced that Guy is in such a small minority here. All recent elections (since 77) have been won by parties either opposing their dismantlement or claiming that the issue was irrelevant or far away and choosing to emphasize other platforms (Rabin and Barak). In my opinion it’s about 50-50 nationwide, including Jews, Arabs and everyone.

        Regarding his saying that nobody in England cares, what can I say? From Gert’s mouth to the ear of the Lord.

        As far as Gert’s predictions go, who knows? In the Talmud we say that since the temple was destroyed the power of prophesy was given only to fools, and Gert is anything but a fool.

      • Our resident neo-Nazi is, once again, comparing Israel to the Nazis. Such comparisons are meaningful and useful in one way only: they reveal the neo-Nazi mindset of those who make them.

  4. We are in complete agreement – ‘Jews have a right to a sovereign state in the Middle East and that the Palestinians have a right to one also’.

    I’m not in agreement. What ‘right’ do the Palestinians have to a state? It’s not history – there was never a Palestinian state. It’s not good behaviour unless you call services to air security a contribution to mankind. It’s not readiness. By any fair assessment the Palestinian Authority, and even less Hamas controlled Gaza, don’t have the proper infrastructure for a democratic, functioning state in place. It’s not even that much abused concept, International Law. Palestine doesn’t even come close to the standard definition of the requirements for sovereignty.

    A sovereign state is state which has (1) effective internal and external sovereignty over a geographic area, (2) is not dependent on, or subject to any other power or state, and (3) has a monopoly on the use of force within its borders.

    In case its not obvious (1) Abbas’s ‘government’ doesn’t exert any control over about 1/3 of the Palestinian population in Gaza and very little control inside the West Bank. (2) Palestine depends entirely on funding from the UN, EU, America (and in the case of Gaza, Iran) to survive and although it may not acknowledge it the goodwill of Israel, Jordan and Egypt to exercise any type of external sovereignty. (3) PA is under Israeli military control (call it occupation if that makes you happy) and I have the assurance of several people who know the conditions in the PA, will fall to Hamas . as quickly as it did in Gaza, the moment Israel withdraws, unless and preferably Jordan invades and reabsorbs the West Bank (or as much as Israel is willing to concede) back into Jordan.

    Still I concede there is a strong likelihood that the world will ignore the above realities and recognise a Palestinian State and polls suggest I am in a minority in Israel, about accepting it. A state may be forced on a weakened, intimidated Israel. What then?

    Will the Palestinian State be peaceful towards its neighbours (and I include Jordan and Egypt as well as Israel) and devote itself to the benefit of its population (minus the Jews, of course, already expelled from Gaza and due to be expelled from the West Bank if Abbas and the Fatah Central Committee are to be believed)? ROFL

    Hamas as official policy refuses to accept any agreements that may be made that don’t turn the whole pre 1948 territory into a Sharia state. Abbas refuses to accept any agreement as a final end of conflict and opinion polls suggest the majority of Palestinians see any agreement as the first step to the reconquest of all Palestine – an eventual ‘one state’ solution. Fatah is quite clear (and so is Abbas also, most of the time): the ‘minimum’ conditions are expulsion of all Jews from the Palestinians state; right of return to any Palestinians who want to and compensation for the rest (either swamping or bankrupting Israel or both); all of the land captured and occupied by Jordan for the state; a Muslim state of Palestine only for the Arabs next to a democratic, secular state of Israel. This will lead through massive Arab emigration, higher Arab birthrates and the inevitable flight of Jews when a people indoctrinated for 64+ years to hate the Jews moves in, will become Arab majority.

    It seems there are, indeed, two rights here. Palestinians have the right to a state and Israel has the right to commit suicide by allowing it.

    This is already too long. I’ll respond to the settlement question in a later comment.

  5. If not a Palestinian state, then what?
    Continued settlement expansion?
    Israel = all of West Bank?
    Deportation of non-Jews from Judea & Samaria -if not from today’s Israel?

    There are historical precedents.

    • Hi Richard Tebboth,

      “Deportation of non-Jews from Judea & Samaria -if not from today’s Israel?”

      I’m interested in your objection to the deportation or expulsion of non-Jews from Judea and Samaria. I also object to such a scenario, not because they are non- Jews, but because they are human beings. Since I consider Jews to be human beings as well, I object to their deportation from Judea and Samaria, if not from Israel, equally.

      How about you? Do you limit your objection to non-Jews or do you disagree with throwing anyone out of his/her home because of his/her religion, nationality, sex, language, political viewpoint etc?

  6. What should concern us is that the continued settlement expansion in Judea and Samaria is rendering the establishment of a viable Palestinian state increasingly difficult if not impossible.

    BTW Thank you for referring to Judea and Samaria, the Anglicisation of historic Jewish names for the region. I refrained from using those names in my comment about rights because I didn’t want to get into a tangential argument about labelling.

    Settlement is an enormous red herring. Israel maintained a settlement freeze in those areas for 10 months and the Palestinians did nothing during that period to advance talks. Indeed through the bumbling of Obama a settlement freeze is no longer an issue to be negotiated but a precondition to begin talking.

    Part of the reason for this is Abbas’s quite rational fear that if he makes any concessions, such as declaring a permanent end to hostilities is possible, his regime and probably his life will be over. The other part is that he truly doesn’t want a Palestinian state peacefully alongside an Israeli one. If he did he would be preparing his people that few if any would be allowed to live in the Israeli state.

    I mentioned the ‘minimum’ conditions he demands, knowing in advance that Israel can not and will not agree to them, in my earlier comment. It is that not settlement that prevents the establishment of a state, it is impossible conditions. To say openly that he really doesn’t want the state that the world thinks he is demanding runs the risk that a compliant world will see through him and cease financing the Palestinians with billions of aid money dollars. However, I think that is a small risk. He believes that he will get everything without making compromises and the rush to recognise his ‘virtual’ state suggests he may be making a tactical decision to avoid negotiations as well as a life=defending one.

    Most Israelis ask why if Israeli settlement is such a burden to the Palestinians did the complete evacuation of all civilians and soldiers from Azza (if you can say Judea and Samaria you can accept the correct Jewish name Azza for Gaza) not bring peace? They also ask why if it is such a burden why the Palestinians aren’t rushing to negotiate a way to remove them?

    Some of the more informed note that official PA publications refer to all Jewish communities in Israel as settlements, including Tel Aviv. Some more familiar with history note that the Palestine Liberation Organisation, to which Arafat and Abbas were leaders from the beginning, was created by the Egyptians (and probably the KGB) in 1964. That is, three years before there was any Israeli presence in Gaza, Judea and Samaria or settlements of any kind.

    I can’t resist commenting on your use of the word ‘viable’. It is my contention that if Israel withdrew from all the territories and even allowed itself to be chopped in two by a corridor connecting Gaza (Bangla Gaza?) with the West Bank (Palistan?) the Palestinian State will never be viable.

    I don’t mean because it will be inevitably be involved in a civil war between Hamas and the P.L.O. Nor do I mean because no matter how that war turns out it will not be able to resist making war on its closest and largest employer, investor, market, port and supplier of raw materials i.e. Israel. Or even, probably, the second largest Egypt and Jordan. I don’t even mean because it has become so used to being supported by overseas charity that it has lost any work ethic it may have had or that the development of an entrepreneurial middle class has been stifled by bureaucracy, tribalism and corruption.

    Palestine has nothing to be viable with. Thanks to Arafat’s treason against Kuwait it no longer has overseas workers sending remittance income. Few natural resources and an agricultural sector in competition with its neighbours. A sensible Palestine would ask Jordan to absorb it as an autonomous canton. Still if Palestine was ever this sensible we wouldn’t be having this discussion.

  7. Richard: I don’t have an answer. I used to support a Swiss Federation idea with Israeli, West Bank/Gaza and Jordanian cantons. Israel and Jordan would retain their militaries, eventually becoming one command while the Palestinians would be demilitarized with no Palestinian input to defence until a fixed time in the future, say 50 years.

    The Swiss idea would have advantages for everybody. For Jordan, access to the Mediterranean, Israeli technology and investment and probably just as important the protection of the IDF against attack. For Israel protection from attack from the East and a final settlement of conflict. The Hashemites could remain as constitutional monarchs. Palestine would get the best deal it is ever likely to get in terms of improved standards of living and personal freedom. There would be strong opposition from the Islamists but it is in the interest of all parties to overcome this.

    The problem with the idea is that none of the parties ever expressed interest in it.

    Are you suggesting (it is unclear) that Israel would expel all non Jewish residents? It is one of the ironies of this conflict that on one hand Israel is accused of every crime under the sun and on the other its enemies rely on Israel to play by the rules as a democratic Western country. Which BTW it generally does.

    I doubt if there is a real precedent. The still hotly disputed exodus of the Palestinians (trying to use a neutral term given that some were expelled, some fled and some strategically and voluntarily left on the instructions of their leaders, fully expecting to return with the conquering Arab armies) took place under conditions of a war of survival for a period of only about four months. Israel is no longer under an existential threat from either the Arabs in Israel or from the Arabs in Judea and Samaria. BTW This was accompanied by the expulsion of a much smaller number of Jews from the areas conquered by the Arabs and an approximately similar amount expelled or fleeing from Arab States.

    In the 64 years following Israel could have expelled the remaining Arabs on its territory (approx. 20% of the Israel pop.) . It did not. It wasn’t even discussed. It could have expelled the population of the conquered territories in 1967. It did not and never tried. It would seem the Israeli leadership never expected to hold most of the territories, except for Jerusalem or at least part of it. They expected a peace deal. It was the Arabs who produced the Khartoum Three ‘No’s: no peace with Israel, no recognition of Israel, no negotiations with it. Had the Arabs been flexible an arrangement would definitely have been made.

    There is an additional element. Israel is totally undecided what to do about the Palestinians. There is no consensus in the Knesset. I’m doubtful that such a decision could be taken and if it was somehow taken bypassing the Knesset I’m sure a large group of Israelis (remember Israel’s army is mainly reserves) would refuse to obey it. That’s a risk no one would willingly take.

    My advice to the Palestinians, which they will ignore, is don’t push Israel into a position where you don’t know the outcome in advance. Unfortunately, Palestinian/Arab gamesmanship is legendary.

    For the rest I am pragmatic. The status can be maintained indefinitely. With the exception of Jerusalem, a separate issue, there will be little expansion, with or without freezes and that in response to population growth. No conceivable Israeli government will commit major resources to encouraging settlement expansion or new settlements. The pool of people who see living in Judea and Samaria as a religious imperative, has I think, largely been exhausted.

    Will that stop a Palestinian State? Given that I feel such a state will inevitably lead to a catastrophic war that will do no one any good, especially the Palestinians, I don’t much care.

  8. RM: Please provide your view on settlements and land allocation directly. From what we have discussed recently via email I understand that they are not exactly as Gert has depicted them.

    Meanwhile: who watched the ‘3 wise men’ of Top Gear on their odyssey to Bethlehem?
    There were some brief views of the ‘separation wall’.
    More detail is provided on
    http://www.amostrust.org/downloads/index.php?pageNo=717

  9. DG: Thank you for your considered response.

    Tom Clancy also had a vision involving the Swiss Guards as neutral custodians of the holy places – ‘The Sum of All Fears’

    The ‘historical precedents’ I had in mind were ancient: those of the Assyrians and Persians.

    Surely the overwhelming majority of Israelis and Palestinians want peace?

    We have a never ending war – the dystopian scenario of Orwell’s 1984.
    Were the resources consumed by ‘defence’ allocated to peaceful development we would not see appeals such as this which I have just received via Haaretz:
    http://www.web-view.net/Show/0X8D213D61941A6BCBA36C8B6B966A13F68A72DF9A60288441F7C6235E0784756F.htm

    • “Tom Clancy also had a vision involving the Swiss Guards as neutral custodians of the holy places”

      Would they be more or less effective (if the latter were physically possible) than the UN’s ‘peace-keeping forces’ in ensuring no more Arab attacks on Israel?

      Israel would be insane to rely on the dubious services of third parties. Those who don’t learn from history etc.

  10. Excellent arguments from David Guy. They summarise in masterly fashion all the arguments against accepting the greatest fabrication of the 20th century, greater even than the Protocols – the myth that there is a ‘Palestinian nation’ whose homeland is ‘Palestine’, ergo the Jews are ‘European colonialists’ (even Yemenite Jews? or should I call the latter ‘Khazars’?).

    Richard:
    “Britain’s anti-Israel lobby should beware the monster it is helping to create”
    I thought that was the whole point. Creating a monster that would eventually cow a weakened Jewish nation and a weakened Israel into committing suicide.

  11. David Guy, for all your drivel, here’s the actual reality: your status quo isn’t a status quo. Continuing to settle the West Bank (whatever you want to call it doesn’t change the facts on the ground – no more than me referring to your rogue state as the Zionist Entity) WILL lead Israel to a huge problem: a virtually immovable but stateless Palestinian population which somehow will have to be accommodated.

    You have three choices:

    • Forced transfer (to ‘the East’? Where have I heard that before?) Even the Big Satan won’t stand for that. If you’re advocating it you’re no better than the Nazis, not to mention completely meshuggah.
    • Genocide – let’s not go there.
    • Assimilation of West Bank Arab populations into Greater Israel (leaving of course the problem of Gaza), in which case, if you have nightmares about demography in Israel proper, your worst nightmare will then REALLY have come true…

    That’s what I find so amusing about belletrist idiots like you: that you don’t even seem to understand that by supporting the (non) ‘status quo’ you’re basically playing into the hands of those who, out of sheer desperation, are now considering a binational solution…

    • “rogue state” = uppity Juden who don’t know their proper place.
      Now, where have we heard that before?
      Gert seems to think that the date is 1942.

  12. My advice to the Palestinians, which they will ignore, is don’t push Israel into a position where you don’t know the outcome in advance. Unfortunately, Palestinian/Arab gamesmanship is legendary.

    My advice to the (succession of) Israeli leadership(s), which they will ignore, is don’t push the World into a position where you DO know the outcome in advance. Unfortunately, Israeli leadership’s blindness to simple facts is notorious.

    • Of course, that is why Israel has not survived each and every genocidal attack by Gert’s friends, often ending in a better position than before.
      Jew-haters’ refusal to accept this, continuing instead to believe in their juvenile wet dreams and megalomania (“We speak for the world”), is notorious – see under ‘psychosis’.

  13. [quote]
    We all understand the history of the conflict. We know that Jews have a right to a sovereign state in the Middle East and that the Palestinians have a right to one also.
    [unquote]

    Richard, coming from you that is a very disappointing remark. The equation itself is unbalanced and therefore insulting, and the claim that “We all understand the history of the conflict” is proven false by that equation.

    I find it disturbing that I have to explain to you what Amber, Yvetta, Jon and I had to explain recently to Methodists who decided to boycott Israeli settlements’ goods.

    Very briefly (since “we all understand the history of the conflict”) Palestine existed until 14th May 1948. From then on all territories in the area became either Israeli, Egyptian or Jordanian. No Palestine.

    There was not and is not a Palestinian nation.

    Quite apart from the obvious dangers to the State of Israel caused by establishing a “Palestinian” state – which will be intent on destroying Israel – I do not understand from where you determine the “rights” for setting up such a state.

    As an Israeli, you would be well-justified in replying to me “what do you want from me? A large number of Israelis are of the same opinion!”

    True! But no justification. Yitzchak Rabin made one of the most stupid mistakes in Jewish history, and none of his followers have the intellectual honesty to admit this. They never will.

    I did agree with your comment: “One might disagree with Israeli policies but what we think is irrelevant. We do not live there and so do not suffer the same threats as Israeli Jews.”

    —-

    Re your statement: “According to the play Jews are biblically driven, think of Palestinians as “filth” and “animals”, justify the killing of Palestinian babies to their own children and enjoy swimming in nice pools while the Palestinians become dehydrated.
    There may be some Jews who think like this, Baruch Goldstein was an example …”

    I would not dream of identifying or justifying in any way what Goldstein did: he murdered innocent civilians at prayer. But you did him an injustice. Baruch Goldstein was a family doctor, who worked in Kiriat Arba. A friend of mine was there for a period of time, and Goldstein was his doctor. He told me that there were many murders of Jews by terrorists during his time, and Goldstein was called as a doctor to the scenes of most of the terrorist attacks during this period.

    (I was told by a resident of the area that when six IDF soldiers were slaughtered by terrorists, the Defense Minister at that time – Ezer Weitzman z”l – arrived at the scene – drunk).

    Thus it was apparently the number of slaughtered Israelis that turned Goldstein’s mind, NOT – as you stated – negative opinions of Arabs in general.

    Again, I do not justify in any way whatsoever what he did, but lets keep our facts and opinions on the path of truth.

  14. Sorry – didn’t sign my name to the previous post – the “JCWmoderator was inserted automatically. The previous post is by Avraham Reiss.

  15. In a recent posting I reminded Gert that since the destruction of the temple prophesy has been given only to fools. However, I hardly had to be a Moses or even Isaiah to guess that it would only be a matter of time before our Yoni would foul his mouth on another page.

    As a child in the 70s I was a member of the Betar Zionist youth movement in London, which paradoxically shared premises with a disco for yordim (Israeli youths who couldn’t cut it and had turned up London to try their luck).

    They were sometimes a sad lot who would often try and impress us with tales of military heroics. I particularly remember a short overweight cabby/security guard trying to convince one and all that it was he and not Yoni Netanyahu that had led the operation in Entebbe. Someone said we should pretend to believe him out of pity.

    It didn’t work then in London and it now amuses me to hear a yored of that generation of yordim calling me a draft dodger. Yes, I served in the army and reserves as a combat soldier for about twenty years, yes Amichai and Dina my two eldest have both served, Amichai in a combat unit and Dina in IDF intelligence and Rachelle joins in about a year, but so what? All my friends, neighbors, family, pretty much everyone serves here and it’s not considered to be anything unusual. I was not a great soldier and from my first day of basic training I knew I’d be no general, but I did what everyone else did and does.

    If somebody asks me about my contribution to Zionism and the State of Israel the army is the last thing on my list. I have taught hundreds, maybe thousands of pupils and students. I belong to a thriving West Bank settlement and have raised here my family. I am employed by the German government as an expert on various Zionism related issues..and oh yes..I was an occasional soldier years ago.

    You see Yoni, maybe in London there are still a few naïve Jews who are impressed by a foul mouth and tales of an old man who fought with Orde Wingate, but here in Israel army service is just taken for granted. I guess when you’re sitting in the galut as an unknown translator what you did 30 years ago is still a good tale to impress the locals.

    That having been said, I’d be happy for you to repeat any accusations of me being a draft dodger and provide your full name and the address of your rat hole and I might even sue you.

    A final thought. You know nothing about me but lied about me draft-dodging. I wonder what else you’ve been lying about. I wonder why you ran away from Israel in the first place. I wonder what made you think about draft-dodging. I wonder why you never use your family name.

    Oops, my shoe’s dirty again!

    Have a great week,

  16. “the Defense Minister at that time – Ezer Weitzman z”l – arrived at the scene – drunk”

    This is a disgraceful slur against a great man, based on nothing but hearsay. Perhaps he had been drinking before he heard the news. So?

  17. A revolting little serial liar accuses me of ‘running away’ and so on and so forth, on thread after thread, without knowing the first thing about me, and then whines and mewls and threatens to sue me: the true mark of a human cockroach.

  18. And let me remind the reader who it was who fouled this thread, in the very first paragraph of the very first post: the parasite himself.

  19. I also agree that Weitzman was a great man. The spectacular performance of the Israeli Air Force during the Six Day War was one of the greatest Kidushei HaShem since the second Temple, 2,000 yeras ago. And it was all Weitzman’s doing.

    This does not contradict the fact that that Shamir expelled him from the government for contacts with the PLO, and that he in general began developing leftist views.

    The story of his being drunk was told to me by a person who smelled it on his breath and heard his drunken rage.

    And Yoni – if as I understand from a previous post here that you are a yored sitting in London – mind your own business.

  20. And you mind your own. I will continue posting my opinions with or without your permission, moron – and I would have done so even if I hadn’t served under him.

  21. Surely the overwhelming majority of Israelis and Palestinians want peace?

    It may be just wishful thinking that the doctrines of the Islamists (Hamas and others) and the Nationalists (Fatah and others) are not shared by the majority of Palestinians.

    I’m not even sure the Israelis (meaning Jews?) and Palestinians would agree on the definition of the peace they want. Define what you mean by peace.

    BTW the idea that peace is a good thing to be strived for is quite modern. The medieval knight saw ‘war’ as the natural state of things and ‘peace’ as the period of preparation for war. The medieval Muslim and the modern Islamist divides the world into two groups Dar al Islam (House of Islam) also known as Dar as-Salam (House of Peace), and Dar al Harb (House of War) emphasizing various Islamic countries’ aspirations to conquer such territories and render them part of dar al-Islam.

    In Islamic thinking the perfect man was Mohammed, his example to be followed in all ways. His followers the first four caliphs (Abu Bakr, Umar ibn al-Khattab, Uthman ibn Affan, and Ali ibn Abi Talib), were next in perfection and the decrease continued after them. It should be no surprise that the period of Mohammed and those caliphs’ perfection was a period of major expansion by war and therefore that jihad is the rule and not the exception.

    This is not meant to be a history lesson. The question is, how many of the Palestinians follow that philosophy? Be certain Hamas does.

    The Palestinian people have been indoctrinated since birth that Israel is the ultimate evil and killing Israelis/Jews is a good and necessary thing. Not just soldiers, not just adults and not just in the ‘occupied territory’. They have been told that they will return to their homes (actually mostly their grand and great grand parents’ homes) and that war is the precondition for this.

    An overwhelming desire for peace? Prove it.

  22. “An overwhelming desire for peace? Prove it.”

    During 4 spells of IDF reserve duty in the 1st Intifada, I spent a fair amount of time amongst Arabs, and whenever conditions so enabled, I engaged them in conversation.

    My basic impression was – and still is – that most of them just want to be left alone and get on with their lives. They would probably prefer that Israel not exist, but won’t actually get up and do something about it.

    I get the same inpressions today, when most of the Arabs I meet are taxi–drivers here in Jerusalem.

    This may account for 90% of the Arabs in Judea/Samaria – but unfortunately, they are irrelevant. Not that I think so, but events are determined by a small band of terrorists, whose activities force Israel to take preventative security measures, which technically have to be imposed on the general Arab population. Fact: since the Wall was established – suicide bombing has stopped entirely.

    Gaza Arabs are a different story: if you don’t turn up for a demonstration, you can get shot in the knee-caps or thrown off the top of a 4-story building.

    My own suggestion for peace says that no immediate solution acceptable for all is anywhere on the horizon, so let’s declare a freeze of all activities for one generation, with the soul intention of allowing our kids – Israeli and Arab – to grow up normally.

    Realistically, that won’t work. Because as USA President once said: “the business of America is …. business”, so the business of Isarel is … Zionism, which means building Eretz Yisrael, settling waste lands.

    So we will continue Zionism by means of force, which is what every other nation does. It’s not an ideal solution, but it is workable – which is what counts. After all, we’ve been doing now for about 100 years.

    • jcwmoderator: I wouldn’t assume that what an Arab privately tells you in English is what he really feels, what he tells other Arabs or what he says in Arabic. This has fooled well meaning souls, professional diplomats, business negotiators and pollsters before you.

      There is a whole cultural thing here and it’s not exclusively Arab. It’s a problem Europeans also frequently have with Asians, particularly Japanese and Chinese. It relates to hospitable treatment of a guest by telling him what they think you want to hear, saving face, a different view of exaggeration in the language, self defence (you were a soldier, don’t forget. They certainly didn’t), relative status and doesn’t exclude straight out telling lies and flattery. It also may be the what they actually felt.

      An anecdote. In 1982 the PLO had a conference in Amman, covered by Jordan TV who provided English subtitles in real time. Arafat made a speech that could be interpreted as moderate. The audience to a man applauded. This was reported in the English language media.

      Then Arafat introduced one of his deputies, who in Arafat’s words would tell the real truth. The deputy proceeded to make a bloodthirsty speech in Arabic contrary to what the chairman had just said in English. Nevertheless, Arafat smiled broadly throughout and the audience’s response was far more enthusiastic than before.

      So who was lying and who was telling the truth? Arafat was manipulating what his his English speaking audience wanted to hear, by ambiguity and omission, but was his deputy telling the truth? What about the PLO delegates? Was their first response orchestrated? Was it the respect they felt they had to give, even though they didn’t agree? Were they being deliberately deceitful?

      • David, I’m probably politically on your side of the map. I heard many Arabs say what created my opinion, but if it came down to brass tacks I would of course assume the worst; When Jacob went to meet Esau, our Sages tell us that he prepared himself by prayer, gift and preparations for war!

        But the example you gave does verify what I said, namely that its the few extremists that cause all the strife.

        Arafat was once recorded in a mosque in S. Africa referring to an agreement named Koreish, from the Koran, which said that you can make peace with your enemies with the intention of subsequentially waging war against them.

        So Israel must always be ready for war, but the actual outbreak is caused by a few; most Gaza residents would probably NOT want to see Cast Lead II – but its on the way.

      • David Guy,

        I’m guessing that jcwmoderator was not talking in English.

        Incidentally, I think you’re attaching to much significance to linguistics. Wikilinks has shown us that they (Arab leaders) lie to each other quite regularly in Arabic too.

  23. “soul intention” should be “sole intention”. Freudian slip?

  24. We are prowd of Yoni the big “Yored”!
    If all Isrealis will Yored back to Poland or Happy taxi driver’s in London is OK to – their will be not more zionist state in tel aviv or heyfa.

    Long live all Yoreds and many falafals !
    Yoni is a good man!
    In blood and fire we shall to free Palestine!

  25. Yoni is an Indian word.

  26. There is no such language as ‘Indian’.

  27. Well, whatever language it is, ‘yoni’ stars in the Indian Kama Sutra.

  28. Richard Tebboth

    For Daniel Marks

    I was not actually raising an objection.

    I was trying to point out that if there is not an acceptable ‘two state solution’ you are left with a ‘one state solution’ comprising all mandate Palestine except Gaza.

    For Israel to preserve its democratic credentials it would have to extend citizenship/franchise to all the inhabitants.
    This would have an interesting affect on the composition of the Knesset!
    – unless there were significant population movements.

  29. Richard,
    everything you have written in the psot preceding this one, has been discussed here in Israel since the 6 Day War.
    Nobody has come up with a good solution.

    The “2 State Solution” is a a bad one; it will create yet another corrupt Arab dictatorship, which will arm itself (as is the Hamas now in Gaza) for yet another war against Israel. It will lose, and suffer much desolation. This in return will escalate even more anti-Israel feeling.

    Preferable to stay as we are now, with control over the non-Jewish residents, willingly affording them as much improvement of conditions as possible. Democracy is not important to Judaism; majority rule is accpeted, but subject to halachic limitations: we aren’t the USA or Switzerland, and with all respect for them, wish to retain our own, Jewish identity.

    SInce the 6 Day War no leftist plan has ever reached fruition, excepting for the collosal barduk – havoc – wreaked by Rabin, which has robbed hundreds of Israelis of their lives.
    No more.

  30. To jewmoderator in response to immediately prior post

    Your analysis and prescription seems remarkably similar to that made in somewhat stronger language by Ilan Apppe:-

    ‘.. the present political and military elite of Israel (which includes the government and the main opposition parties) … have known now for years what to do in the West Bank – colonize, ethnically cleanse and bisect the area to death, while remaining publicly loyal to the futile discourse of peace or rather the ‘peace process’. The end result is expected to be a docile Palestinian Authority within a heavily Judaized West Bank.’
    http://mondoweiss.net/2010/12/the-drums-of-war-are-heard-again-in-israel.html

    The question then becomes as to the acceptability of this doctrine to the wider international community.

    ‘NO WAR, no peace, is the usual state of affairs between Israel and its neighbours in the Middle East. But every time an attempt at Arab-Israeli peacemaking fails, as Barack Obama’s did shortly before Christmas, the peace becomes a little more fragile and the danger of war increases. Sadly, there is reason to believe that unless remedial action is taken, 2011 might see the most destructive such war for many years.’
    http://www.economist.com/node/17800151

    Where would such war end? A zero state solution?
    ‘A diplomatic cable from the UK embassy in Tel Aviv, dated May 4, 1980, warned “the situation in the region is deteriorating and with it Israel’s dangerous mood of isolation and defiance will grow. If they are to be destroyed they will go down fighting this time. They will be ready to use their atomic weapon. Because they cannot sustain a long war, they would have to use it early.”’
    Reports:
    http://fresnozionism.org/2010/12/a-diplomatic-cable/
    http://www.jpost.com/International/Article.aspx?ID=201503&R=R1
    Original source:
    http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/

    • Ilan Pappe, who disgracefully falsified documentary evidence, is the last person (possibly with the exception of Greenstein) I would cite in support of anything if you want to be taken seriously.

  31. Richard Tebboth,
    what you have written as if I said the words, is a DISGUSTING FABRICATION of words and ideas I never said or thought, in true anti-semitic fashion. All that was missing was the term “nazi”.

    I never thought, said or even hinted in the direction of ” ethnically cleanse and bisect the area to death” as you sickly wrote – and I don’t care if you were quoting; you wrote those words here.

    Christians like yourself will never understand what is going on here, you should find another area of interest into which you can pour your hatred.

  32. jewmoderater: I apologise – my quotation from IP clearly upset you.

    I hate no-one; what I fail to discern from any comments on this blog (or on any others like CiF Watch) is any progress towards peace – rather the alternative which risks increasingly wide conflict and the potential horror of nuclear warfare.

    For the record: I am also a supporter of CND & UK unilateralism

    • “I am also a supporter of CND & UK unilateralism”

      Yes, we already gathered that you are feeble-minded when you quoted Ilan Pappe.

  33. Richard Tebboth,
    only a rabid anti-semite would alter JCWmoderator to “jewmoderator” as you have done.
    You fool nobody.

    And you fail totally to relate in any way to Arab terror, which has prevented any hope of peace.

  34. Richard Tebboth

    I apologise again – this time for my failing eyesight
    ‘Arab terror’: there are extremists in many places

  35. You have just quoted one of Israel’s sickest, most extreme leftists.
    Nobody buys that stuff.
    Again, why would a christian like you be so persistent on a blog concerning Israel? We didn’t kill christ – the vatican said so!
    Doesn’t priest-molestation of little boys seem to you to be a relevant humanitarian matter for your attention?

  36. Hey, its the Indian-named lady again! Hi, Yonit!

  37. Here is the ignorant, illiterate tosser again, who doesn’t know that Yoni is a male Hebrew name.

  38. Yonit, don’t get so upset. It’s not your fault mummy gave you a name from the Kama Sutra. Calm down, little girl. Hebrews don’t get hysterical like you.

  39. What a dos asshole.

  40. jcwmoderator!

    I has googled you on google and finded out that you are the jesus christ moderator, wellcome!

    Yoni is not Hebrew but good man and “yored” from Isreal. Not a girl too.

    Long live Yored yoni!
    Long live Palestine!

    Daniel is the dos!

  41. Gamil Elias,
    thank you, I am is but not but when cabbage outside rains three wet birds.

  42. Richard Tebboth,

    Richard, I don’t know you well, but you seem like a man who lies a good link. Am I right or am I right?

  43. The Armchair Jew

    To put it plain and simply, so all your readers can understand is that Israel has itself to blame for its own problems.

  44. Well, that is a thousand times better than the situation 70 years ago, when the fate of the Jewish People was in the hands of Christians, whose 2,000 years of persecution crescendoed into to the Holocaust.

    Israel builds, launches and operates its own satellites, its air force will soon be double the size of Britain’s, and rumours say that we have a huge stock of nuclear weapons.
    Another way of saying “Israel has itself to blame for its own problems” is that it holds its own fate in its hands. That’s the way we like it, uhuh! uhuh!

    But of course, only a blind phool would ignore the small matter of world-wide anti-semitism …

  45. You say “Britain’s anti-Israel lobby should beware the monster it is helping to create. ” This is not entirely correct. Antizionists and antiIsrael ‘activists’ of every stripe, you imagine merely tolerate antisemitism. I submit that they absolutely know what they’re doing and this is what they are trying to do. Scratch a protester in front of the Ahava store and you’ll find a genocidal maniac every single time. They just have the sense not to scream it too too loud.