Israeli Army Refusenik speaks to Palestine Solidarity Campaign

Israeli Refusnik Rotem Mor speaking to Merton PSC last night.

Israeli Refusenik Rotem Mor speaking to Merton PSC last night.

Israeli army refusenik Rotem Mor, 29, spoke to Merton Palestine Solidarity Campaign last night at the Irish Centre in Wimbledon and, unwittingly, exposed the hypocrisy of his audience.

Rotem is only a half-refusenik. He had served one and a half years in the Israeli Army as a teacher and subsequently served a one month prison sentence for not completing the three years.

Last night Rotem detailed his political activitism which included fighting the wall that divides Israelis and Palestinians, helping to rebuild demolished Palestinian homes, holding seminars where Israeli youngsters could talk freely about being conscripted into the army and creating a summer camp where Israelis and Palestinians could meet.

He said that many young Israelis who had been to his seminars had gone on to refuse army service and in Beit Surik he was instrumental in having the wall re-routed on to the Green Line after a Supreme Court judgment.

At the start of his talk he spoke about the discrimination of Sephardi Jews in Israel after they were expelled from Arab countries. A member of the audience, already getting impatient, angrily asked “Are you a Zionist?”

Rotem didn’t answer.

Again “Are you a Zionist?” But Rotem continued talking about Sephardi Jews.

After his fourth request was ignored the man shouted “This is bullshit” and stormed out.

Actually, Rotem believes no states, including Israel, should exist unlike PSC audiences who believe that only the Jewish state should not exist.

Rotem went on to show us photos and newspaper cuttings of his travels throughout the world with other Israeli refusniks.

The headline in one French newspaper read: “Ils preferent le geole a l’uniforme.”

He showed us pictures of him meeting Palestinians and felt that Israelis and Palestinians should meet more. Then, he said, during war Israelis might think twice before attacking Palestinian friends and Palestinians might think the same about their Israeli friends.

He also showed us pictures of his friend Yehuda who lives on a settlement. Yehuda, although religious, moved to the settlement because it was cheap. Rotem said that is was only a minority of settlers that burn Palestinian olive trees.

All this talk of cross communal dialogue was very nice but during the Q&A the audience was determined to hear more criticism of Israel.

Rotem was asked why refused. Was it due to the illegality of the occupation? Rotem told the audience that international law was complex and his refusal was based merely on seeing how soldiers suffer.

He was also asked whether people should boycott Israeli goods. He said Palestinians should as they were the ones suffering but that the English had no moral grounds for doing so due to the occupation of Afghanistan. He said he could easily boycott 99% of British rock groups if he wished to.

The audience tried to persuade Rotem that they hadn’t themselves voted for the war in Afghanistan and that Israel was on a par with apartheid South Africa.

But Rotem told them that they had responsibility for their own government’s choices and whereas in boycotting South Africa the reasonable objective had been one man one vote in boycotting Israel there was no objective.

By now the audience was not happy that a young Israeli was preaching to them about their hypocrisy.

Finally, he was asked about the difficulty of living in Israel (Rotem lives just outside Jerusalem) after refusing. He said it wasn’t difficult.

Socially things are fine for him and being a refusenik has allowed him to travel the world, give talks and meet people. He now owns Jerusalem Reality Tours and is currently writing a book about his experiences.

Obviously refusing to serve in the IDF can be a potentially lucrative business idea.

Rotem Mor in action giving one of his many tours of Israel (

Rotem Mor in action giving one of his many tours of Israel (

146 responses to “Israeli Army Refusenik speaks to Palestine Solidarity Campaign

  1. thank you for telling about it Richard
    it must have been really weird to sit through that
    do you have any idea, what the man with the “are you a Zionist?” was after?

    I mean was he pro or against?

  2. richardmillett

    Oh, he was against. They all were. They all wanted to know he didn’t believe in a Jewish state. I think that because Rotem didn’t answer then the man assumed Rotem was for a Jewish state. Rotem isn’t for a Jewish state, or for any state for that matter.

  3. Let’s play “Out the Zionist” in the form of a McCarthy Witch Hunt

  4. “Actually, Rotem believes no states, including Israel, should exist”

    Not very intelligent, is he? Humans are tribal animals. States, in one form or another, have existed since the dawn of civilisation because that is how human nature works.

    And this whine … whine … whine about the ‘discrimination’ against Sephardi Jews is irritating bullshit. He is a childish grievance-merchant.

  5. Jonathan Hoffman

    The PSC will not be inviting him back, that much is clear

  6. Blacklisted Dictator


    Do you know which Afghani products I can boycott?

    Drugs? But isn’t that a bit unrealistic, if one is addicted? Should one really go cold turkey on ethical political grounds?

    Afghan hounds? But what if they are bred in England? Should i still boycott them?

  7. Blacklisted Dictator

    It was a pity that you didn’t criticize Israel a bit just to please the audience. Now, I know, that you are reluctant to do it since you are supporting Israel. But is it really fair to upset people who have come along to hear some decent disparagement of the Jewsih state? Have you ever thought of becoming more co-operative? You could say things like “colonialist project” and “zionist entity”. Would it really hurt you?

  8. Blacklisted Dictator

    But is it really true that Sephardi Jews can vote in Israel?

    And aren’t they forced to eat Yemenite food when they are in the army?
    What is Rotem doing about this? Is he campaigning?

  9. Blacklisted Dictator

    Rotem was repeatedly asked whether he was a Zionist and for some reason he refused to answer. This was very unfair. The question is a good question and worthy of Rotem’s consideration.

    But did anybody ask Rotem whether he was Sepahrdic? And from which Arab land does he hail? Were his parents chucked out by Gadaffi?

  10. Blacklisted Dictator

    Yoni says that Rotem isn’t very bright because he doesn’t believes in “states”. Is one to conclude that all anarchists are stupid?

    What does it mean when somebody says “you are in a right state”? Should one be offended? Is it better if “you are in a wrong state”?

    Such questions bother me.

  11. Blacklisted Dictator

    But it is quite amazing that there is a PSC in Merton.Whoever would have thought of it?

    I suppose that it is possible that there are one or two places still left without PSC’s. I wonder whether Edgware has one. As far as I am aware, Stanmore doesn’t. And what about Golders Green?

  12. Blacklisted Dictator

    But when I am next in Jerusalem, I will definitely sign up for one of Rotem’s tours. Even if he is a Zionist. Or isn’t.

    But does Roti think that The Jews should give up The Wailing Wall? Did anybody ask him?

    Roti sounds like a bit of a hippi. I bet that he wouldn’t boycott the Greatful Dead ( 1% 0f the ok rock bands).

    Btw, I think Jews should boycott Cat Stevens.

  13. Blacklisted Dictator

    He’s Askenazi!. Jeez, he looks quite dark in your photo. It must be the lighting in the room.

    But obviously he has a lot of empathy for the Sephardi underdogs who are not eligible to vote.

  14. Blacklisted Dictator

    Overall, it is positive that prominent Israeli’s are finally getting to Wimbledon. Some people think it is just a tennis venue. Clearly, there is a lot more going on.

  15. Who is that Blacklisted Dicatator? He/she/it is pretty funny.

    It is a shame BD you weren’t at this meeting as you have some excellent questions that would have been greatly appreciated by this wonderful audience. Especially this one:

    Afghan hounds? But what if they are bred in England? Should i still boycott them?

    You could further develop the question by putting out there that Afghan Hounds bred in England can have a number tattooed to their paw for clarity. I’m pretty sure this audience would endorse such a motion. They seem the type don’t they? 😉

    PSC in GG?! Not bloody likely. Dare them to try.

  16. The ‘Are you a Zionist?’ question is one which I got at the MEMO / PSC talk at Parliament in the Summer. I had been talking to Hanin Zouabi after the talk, others chimed in and then 2 slightly overweight Palestinian men kept shouting this question in my face.* I replied that I’m just an ordinary guy looking for the truth. Nothing wrong with admitting you’re a Zionist and one is always wiser in hindsight, realising how many different ways to answer.

    But it was at that point that I was led away by the police – for my own protection, I should add.

    *During the talk itself, one of them (wearing glasses if you ever see him) described himself as a journalist.

    • Be careful about putting yourself in the firing line – you could have lost an eye had the meeting been held in Israel.

  17. Just goes to show that these PSC “campaigns” are more about vilifying the Jews than helping the Palestinian Arabs (who already receive more aid per capita than any other people on this planet – despite the need not being nearly as great as, say, sub-Saharan Africa).

    They are just haters.

    • ‘Palestinian Arabs receive more aid per capita than any other people on this planet’. That’s a bit hard to believe based on the fact that more than 50% of US foreign aid goes to Israel. Add on top of that the donations from the usual diaspora supporters and Meyer Lansky types and it’s no wonder that the ‘desert blooms’.

      • richardmillett

        50%? Really? Are you sure it isn’t nearer 75% or 80%? Maybe even 95%? Why be so conservative, Baruch? 😉

      • I’ll stick with my ‘more than 50%’ Richard, thanks. I prefer facts that can can be substantiated.
        Fact >50% of US aid goes to Israel. < 50% of US aid goes to the rest of the world.

  18. i don’t think we should call these people “refuseniks”, due to the equivalnce with the refuseniks in the Soviet Union. If you want bravery, look to these real refuseniks, like Sharansky. If you want self-aggrandising adolescent self-impoertance without any risk to themselves, look at Rotem.

    Traitors, perhaps. Self-loathers, possibly. But they are not “refuseniks”.

  19. That should be “equivalence”.

  20. Blacklisted Dictator

    Next time I will certainly pose some questions in Wimbledon. I have been there for the tennis, but never for ideological canine purposes.

    But I wonder… are there any dogs that originate in Israel? I have heard about “the running dogs of capitalism”. I assume that there must be a Zionist variety. If there are, then it seems inevitable, that sooner or later they will be “canina-zionista non grata” in Wimbledon and Islington. They will probably be banned from shitting in the parks, just in case Ken Cockloach happens to be walking there and accidentally steps in a particularly revolting turd.

    But when I go to The Russell Tribunal, I will of course, question Mr Cockloach about this foul smelling matter.

  21. Baruch, I think you’re wrong. The US gives Israel 3 billion dollars in military assistance, most of which gets ploughed back to US companies – the US is effectively subsidizing its own arms industry. The US then gives Egypt 2 billion a year, so you’re saying the Us gives 1 billion for the rest of the world?

    What is your source? And why is the US obligated to give anyone anything?

  22. Baruch you mean it’s hard to accept because it doesn’t fit your prejudices?

    I’ll say it again – the Palestinians receive more aid PER CAPITA than any other people on this earth.

    Clear enough?

  23. Baruch writes “usual diaspora supporters”.

    You mean – Jews?

  24. Just goes to show that Baruch is more about hating Israel than helping the Palestinian Arabs.

  25. richardmillett

    can you answer Adam’s two questions please:

    What is your source?
    And why is the US obligated to give anyone anything?

    • A non-answer from Andy demands an answer from me does it Silke?
      1. I’ll happily show the source for my statement when the originator substantiates his claim that “Palestinian Arabs receive more aid – yes – PER CAPITA – thank anyone else on the planet” – rather than just repeating it without reference source or substantiation. That fair?
      2. I don’t recall saying that the US was obligated to give anything to anyone -so that question would be best reflected back at its originator.

  26. Wouldn’t it be nice, if one could bet on Baruch’s answer or non-answer?
    I’d put my money on the latter.

  27. Blacklisted Dictator

    Can you please provide links to prove that more than 50% of US aid goes to Israel. I am surprised by your assertion, since I would have thought that the USA is spending quite a lot in Iraq, Afghanistan, Egypt and Pakistan.

    But, of course you might be a blogger who just spouts off the first thing that comes into his head? If that is the case, then don’t bother backing up your case with facts.

  28. Blacklisted Dictator

    Take a look at this…

  29. Blacklisted Dictator

    Investing In People: Health and Education

    Under the Taliban, only 900,000 boys and no girls were enrolled in schools. Today, as a result of efforts by the Afghan government, the U.S., and other donors, more than six million children are in school. A third of them are girls. With 80 percent of schools severely damaged or destroyed by the Taliban, USAID constructed or repaired more than 680 schools and printed 60 million textbooks. Beyond its accelerated learning program that enrolled over 170,000 students – more than half of them girls – USAID support to government has translated into a significant increase in female enrollment at secondary and university levels.

    The health status of Afghans is among the worst in the world. One out of every five Afghan children dies before the age of five. To this end, USAID and other donors have worked so that now more than 85 percent of the population has access to some form of health care, up from nine percent in 2002. In addition, the infant mortality rate has dropped by 22 percent, partially due to USAID’s support of midwife training, which has increased the number of midwives from 404 to nearly 1,700 in six years. Finally, Afghanistan, one of only four countries in the world where polio remains endemic, has seen over 90 percent of children under five years old vaccinated against the disease since 2002, partially due to USAID support.

  30. Baruch is such a slippery operator his arguments are hard to follow. But if I remember correctly he classifies US military “aid” to Israel as aid, shouldn’t then the arming of Iraq and Afghanistan police and military also be counted as aid?

  31. Silke, you’re expecting consistent thinking, which is clearly alien to Baruch.

    His claim about Israel getting more than half of US aid is the usual garbage from haters.

  32. Adam
    I find Baruch rather amusing.
    He is obviously a guy who considers himself to be the greatest debater who ever lived and seems to be exceedingly proud of what he considers the stuff he comes up with as such fine points that nobody else can consider him/herself his equal.

    Therefore I think it would be good for both of us to recognize Baruch’s vast superiority and read in stunned awe all the incredibly brillant stuff he is offering us here for free. I think the most adequate way to receive his offerings would be to learn them by heart and repeat them like mantras in an effort to become more spiritual human beings ourselves. Spiritual isn’t a good translation for “vergeistigt” i.e. turned into spirits, which is how he strikes me.

  33. Yes, Baruch, the CIA world factbook.

    The Palestinians get more aid per capita than anyone on earth. An African is given 1/1000th of the aid given to a Gazan.

    • Ah – I see your logic – Israel breaks it – the rest of the world pays for it to be fixed. And that’s aid.
      “International donors pledged $4.5 billion in aid to rebuild the Gaza Strip, but by the end of 2009 large-scale reconstruction had not begun. To quote your CIA source material.
      That’s a pity – I was hoping to get into a direct comparison of military aid, domestic aid, grants, loans (not that Israel has ever repaid a US government loan – so let’s call them what they are – gifts), interest benefit from US government loan guarantees, commodities, interest from advance aid payments, benefit from tax-exemption for private contributions, and a whole slew of other ‘miscellaneous’ US federal budget allocations each year.

      But it seems you’ve since decided to narrow your per-capita field down from your original statement (covering aid to all ‘Palestinian Arabs’) to – now just Gazans.
      And the aid you talk of is in the form of pledges. Pledges given by whole the international community to rebuild the civilian infrastructure destroyed by Israel. Rebuilding which isn’t being allowed to progress at any great pace, but that’s by the by.
      Would you care to work with me to build a like for like aid comparison, or are you happy that your CIA reported figure for rebuilding Gaza gives the full picture?

  34. Silke, I find Baruch to be a case study of the confidently ill-informed. Unfortunately, he has a big mouth as well.

  35. Now what’s your source Baruch?

  36. Adam
    I can’t quite imagine Baruch with a big mouth, a big mouth would suggest somebody generous, in love with life, somebody with a big belly laugh

    can’t fit that on Baruch

  37. Blacklisted Dictator: Are you really going to the Russel Tribunal? If so, get in touch via Richard so those of us going can liaise. see my post here:
    re dogs: The Canaan Dog is the national dog breed of Israel. It is the ancestor of the border collie. And look what wikipedia says of this dog: Pariah indeed!Do we need to complain to Jimmy Wales?
    The Canaan Dog, known in Israel as (Hebrew: כלב כנעני‎, lit. Canaanite dog, Kelev Kna’ani), is a typical pariah dog in appearance.

    btw: you omitted Afghan rugs.

  38. I like this description on wikipedia:
    Canaan Dogs have a strong survival instinct. They are quick to react and wary of strangers,.. Though defensive, they are not aggressive..

  39. Blacklisted Dictator


    I will try and liase with Richard re Bertie Russell’s tribunal. But I will pose some very philosophical questions…
    I will ask Cockloach to prove that The Tribunal exists and is not just a figment of Kasrils’ imagination? If it isn’t, can he prove that it isn’t a postscript to Kafka’s “The Trial” which got lost in Tel Aviv and, as yet, hasn’t been published?

    Let’s raise the intellectual stakes.

  40. Blacklisted Dictator

    All Jews are pariahs. As well as their dogs.
    But is their no empathy for The Cannan Dog which has to survive in the harshest of conditions?

  41. That doesn’t quite work, does it Baruch? In case you hadn’t noticed, there are wars occurring in Africa too – and the aid figures include repairing damage resulting from them too. And perhaps if the Palestinians gave up on trying to kill Jews with rockets and terror attacks, they wouldn’t have any damage to fix.

    So glad you don’t actually dispute the figures.

    Now where’s your source?

  42. It’s funny, you can actually hear the hysteria in Baruch’s posts through his keyboard.

  43. Amie

    I clicked through on the Pariah link in Wikipedia and it turned out to be an official term chosen by dog breeders for a very attractive sounding kind of dogs, i.e. still pretty close to the wild thing i.e. those who can get through life on their own.

    I had hoped for it to mean something like mixed (I love them) and if it would have been I would have told you that Germans have a very endearing name for them i.e.
    after Heinrich Heine’s song about the Lorelei which begins with “Ich weiß nicht, was soll es bedeuten” (I don’t know what it is supposed to mean)

  44. Adam
    I agree Baruch seems to be prone to hysterics – did you know that most of them are also dyspeptics? A most painful condition I have been told.

    But really sweet is that the one whose favourite shtick seems to be to “analyse” sentences and twist their meaning into unrecognizability now is into throwing around new leads by ever increasing numbers.

    I especially like his omitting to mention that the funds pledged for Gaza construction are apparently not forthcoming from certain donors. Why? because they are those who know that they’ll be used to build waterparks and shopping malls in the oh so deprived of building material area.

    • Thank you for making my point more succinctly, Silke.
      Pledges are not funds. Pledges are not aid. They’re simply non-binding promises.
      So for Adam to quote and describe the CIA-reported $4.5bn of pledges made to the people of Gaza as $4.5bn of ‘aid’ that the Palestinian Arabs ‘receive’ was bending the truth a bit, to say the least.

      • Baruch
        you are wonderful, gorgeous, adorable!

        How elegantly you chose not to mention the stuff that actually has been built in Gaza recently –
        I am sure you can easily explain the for stupid me unsynchronisable facts that you claim no building material is allowed in but there apparently is building material available for high end stuff.
        Very concerned those Gazans are about their bereft of housing compatriots, aren’t they?

        Really after all your posing as a sophisticated arguer I’d have expected a bit more from you.

      • @ Silke:

        I said: “Rebuilding which isn’t being allowed to progress at any great pace”
        You said: “you claim no building material is allowed in”
        Really? You arrived at that statement after reading my sentence?

  45. “Is one to conclude that all anarchists are stupid?”


  46. “Add on top of that the donations from the usual diaspora supporters and Meyer Lansky types and it’s no wonder that the ‘desert blooms’.”

    Oh sheesh, another cookie-cutter Jew-hater.
    The Arabs have far more oil money in the bank today than all the aid Israel has ever received in 60+ years. Now remind us again: where does the desert bloom exactly?

    • Ben-Gurion built his ‘Textile Factory’ in Dimona.
      Then it became a ‘Pumping Station’ – to make the “desert bloom”. Honest.
      But he seemed to settle for just making it glow instead.

  47. Silke, I know, I clicked through myself. I am afraid I was being faux naif.

    • amie
      sorry I didn’t get it, but when it comes to pets I am a bit prone to overseriousness
      and it is such a gorgeous looking dog …

  48. Baruch, nobody is impressed by your silly ramblings about Dimona.

  49. So no source then Baruch?

    Why bother when you can just make it up?

    And I sincerely hope Israel does have nukes. The Jews will never rely on anyone else to defend them – they tried that once.

    • The US Congressional Research Service (a branch of the Library of Congress and therefore an open source of information). Reports are stored in various locations on the web – try
      Let’s pick an example…
      The CRS shows that Israel received $62.5 billion in foreign aid from fiscal year 1949 through fiscal year 1996.

      In precisely the same 1949-1996 time frame, the total of U.S. foreign aid to all of the countries of sub-Saharan Africa, Latin America and the Caribbean combined was $62,497,800,000–almost exactly the amount given to tiny Israel.

      Per capita? According to the Population Reference Bureau of Washington, DC, in mid-1995 the sub-Saharan countries had a combined population of 568 million. The $24,415,700,000 in foreign aid they had received by then amounted to less than $43 per sub-Saharan African.

      Similarly, with a combined population of 486 million, all of the countries of Latin America and the Caribbean together had received $38,254,400,000. This amounted to $79 per person.

      The per capita U.S. foreign aid to Israel during the same period was $10,775.48.
      This means that for every dollar the U.S. spent on an African, it spent $250.65 on an Israeli, and for every dollar it spent on someone from the Western Hemisphere outside the United States, it spent $214 on an Israeli.

      However US foreign aid to Israel has increased dramatically since 1996 and is currently (conservatively) estimated at $14,630 per Israeli per annum, which makes the $4.5Bn in ‘pledges’ (not per-annum) offered by the rest of the world to rebuild Gaza look a bit pale.

  50. And Baruch – you still sound hysterical.

  51. Baruch – hello? Your source?

  52. Still looking for it?

    What a hypocrite.

    • Source above – together with a little comparative analysis.
      My offer to you (ignored so far) to collaborate on a like for like finanicial aid comparison still stands though. For example, over what period of time would you spread your reported $4.5bn in pure ‘promises’ over to arrive at an actual figure?

  53. Adam
    please help me !
    why is Baruch now focusing on the US to make a point I don’t understand to start with
    but as a European I am a bit miffed, don’t I count for anything – when got the issue narrowed to the US only.

    • Why would you be miffed as a European that we’re discussing US aid to Israel Silke? So join in and research how much the EU contributes to Israel on top?

  54. Baruch
    how generous of you to invite me in. But I politely decline. You are way beyond my possibilities of understanding.
    you are too much of a not making sense to me word twister and not enough of the ingenious lawyer kind which I like very much

    therefore I’d appreciate it, if you would not barge in when I talk to Adam.

  55. No Baruch – YOU are discussing US aid – I siad that the Palestinians receive more aid (I didn’t specify US aid only) than any other people, percapita, on this planet. That remains true – the bulk coming from the EU.

    Look at EU aid Baruch to get the full picture.

    Personally, I don’t know why the US gives the US hating Palestinians a penny. Why is the US obligated to give anything to anyone?

    • You ask “Why is the US obligated to give anything to anyone?”

      …who said that the US has any such obligations?

  56. Silke, I can’t help! I can’t help what makes no sense – and Baruch makes no sense.

    • Adam
      thanks, you really make me feel good again
      because if you can’t help me understand Baruch, then nobody can

      least of them all probably Baruch himself 😉

      first he twists the word “aid” into unrecognizability then he shrinks the world to the US and on top of all that he seems to claim that he is actually saying something.

  57. And he is still ducking my point about the oil billions the Arabs have in the bank.
    What a fraud he is.

    • Yoni
      a bit OT but since you are interested into oil billions also (I am) here is an excerpt from a new book which throws some light on where they are meddling.
      German cities have entered very similar sounding deals, so I’d assume they exist in the UK also i.e. on the face of it they look like deals with US-partners but the money trail points somewhere else

    • Let’s simplify:
      1. Andy stated that ‘Palestinian Arabs’ (then later only ‘Gazans’, and now ‘Palestinians’ in general) “receive more aid per capita than any other people on this planet”.
      2. The source he quotes is a CIA report, which shows that the total global *promise* of aid to rebuild Gaza is $4.5bn.
      This would only equate to about $3,750 per Gazan. It would be much less per Palestinian. And let’s not forget that this is not aid that has been ‘received’ and it’s not per annum. But let’s stick with that figure of $3,750 for comparative purposes.
      3. Israel receives financial aid (from the US alone, as shown above) to the tune of $14,630 per man, woman and child, per annum. Almost 4 times more in actual financial benefits than the Palestinians (or Gazans) receive in pure promises. This point alone own shows Andy’s (oft-repeated) claim to be untrue.
      4. However, if we were to add in the the financial assistance Israel receives from the rest of the world (I know Silke’s keen that we don’t limit it to just the the benefits Israel receives from the US) then on an annual basis the obviously the disparity would grow further, and Andy’s claim would be further invalidated.
      5. Oil? Palestinians don’t have any. The ‘fraud’ is in trying to inject an unrelated topic into the debate.
      So – in summary – Andy stated that “Palestinian Arabs receive more aid per capita than any other people on this planet”. Which is untrue.

  58. Adam
    congratulations! you seem to have distressed Baruch so much that he is now so heavily under the influence that he calls you Andy – it seems like Andy is a memory dear to him.

    I just wish any of the Baruch-ses would tell me about the stuff they imbibe, some of what they prefer seems to induce nice delusions.

    • Well done Silke – you’ve picked up a point that really goes to the heart of the debate. Congratulations on your achievement. Gold star.
      Distress, though? Hardly.
      But I do thank you for this opportunity to repeate a very important point and refute Adam’s repeated false claim:

      1. Adam stated that ‘Palestinian Arabs’ (then later only ‘Gazans’, and now ‘Palestinians’ in general) “receive more aid per capita than any other people on this planet”. So let’s examine this claim…
      2. The source he quotes is a CIA report, which shows that the total global *promise* of aid to rebuild Gaza is $4.5bn.
      This would only equate to about $3,750 per Gazan. It would be much less if it were divided per Palestinian. And let’s not forget that this is not aid that has been ‘received’, and it’s not per annum. But let’s stick with that figure of $3,750 for comparative purposes.
      3. Israel receives financial aid (from the US alone, as shown above) to the tune of $14,630 per man, woman and child per annum. Almost 4 times more in actual financial benefits than the Palestinians (or Gazans) receive in pure promises. This point alone shows Adam’s (oft-repeated) claim to be untrue.
      4. However, if we were to add in the the financial assistance Israel receives from the rest of the world (I know Silke’s keen that we don’t limit it to just the benefits Israel receives from the US) then on an annual basis the obvious disparity would grow further, and Adam’s claim would be further invalidated.
      5. Oil? Palestinians don’t have any. The ‘fraud’ is in trying to inject an unrelated topic into the debate.
      So – in summary – Adam stated that “Palestinian Arabs receive more aid per capita than any other people on this planet”. Which is untrue.

      And this time I got Adam’s name right – so Silke should be happy.

  59. Adam
    I think I better stop,
    this Baruch is by now so into trying to please me that I suspect him of having ulterior motives

    do you think that such a lousy writer thinks he’ll get read?

  60. Baruch, are you trying to be dim? Just look at the EU figures. They are freely available.

    The Palestinians, as a whole (and Gazans in particular) receive more aid per capita than any other people on earth. None of your rantings and ravings alter that fact.

    But then facts don’t fit your narrative of Palestinian Arab victimhood.

  61. “Oil? Palestinians don’t have any. The ‘fraud’ is in trying to inject an unrelated topic into the debate”
    What a crock. What an admission of either amazing ignorance or a sick agenda.
    There are no ‘Palestinians’. These are Arabs. Read some history. And Arab countries have plenty of oil, and plenty of billions.

  62. Here Baruch, as you seem unable to research yourself:

    From Reuters. This sentence stands out:

    “The annual assistance given to the Palestinians over the past 16 years represents the EU’s highest per capita foreign aid program.”

    Clear enough?

    • So now you’re changing the goalposts again – and not just limiting it to aid to the ‘Gazans’ – but you’re limiting it also to EU contributions?
      Doesn’t quite fit with your original claim that “Palestinian Arabs receive more aid per capita than any other people on this planet”, does it.
      Anyway – the facts continue to speak for themselves:
      Annual aid to Israel (from one country – the US) = $14,630 per Israeli. Money ‘pledged’ to help rebuild Gaza (assuming it’s forthcoming and completed in one year) = $3,750 per Gazan (or about $1,125 per Palestinian). Add in the $370 per Palestinian from your EU source and we’re comparing $14,630 per Israeli (not counting EU contributions and benefits to Israel) against $1,495 per Palestinian.
      Israel comes out almost 10:1 better.

  63. And they have a whole UN agency dedicated to them.
    And they are the only refugees who have refused to have their issue resolved, preferring to perpetuate it through murder and hate. We know why: they hate Jews more than they love their children. What a sick ‘culture’ of hatred and death.

    • “they are the only refugees who have refused to have their issue resolved”
      …So you say there’s nothing standing in their way to return to their original homes?

  64. Oh, look, Baruch being stupid again.
    Millions of refugees were resettled after WW2, and no, dimbo, not in their original homes.
    Hundreds of thousands of Jewish refugees were expelled from Arab countries in the late 40s and early 50s, simply for being Jews. They received not a penny of compensation.
    Now go and post your Jew-hating nonsense where it’s appreciated.

    • Your statement is that the Palestinians are the “only refugees who have refused to have their issue resolved”.
      Not WW2 refugees, not Jewish refugees. But Palestinian refugees.
      And according to you they’re all refusing to go home?
      Next you’ll be saying that it’s because they like to remain caged and bombed?

  65. Baruch
    German refugees have been absorbed by their compatriots …
    refugees everywhere have settled elsewhere
    I am not aware of one population on earth with a special UN-agency assigned to them who still centers its life around a totally elusive concept of return in favour of reneging on real life.

    if you want to open that can of worms first come up with refugees who have started a war of agression or more precisely of annihilation and lost and were let back into their homes while screaming their intent of murdering the winner if ever given a chance

    and no I don’t do to your stuff what I call reading. That honour I reserve for people who make sense. Your mysterious mythical elusive delusional wannabe high-brow sophisticated stuff I skim

    • Skim away.
      Who started what and when in relation to the Palestinian refugee situation – always a good topic for debate.
      Care to start us off?
      …Let’s publicly debunk some myths

  66. in case Baruch isn’t our dear Baruch’s real but a chosen name, who would have thunk 😉

    Baruch is the Hebrew word for blessed.

  67. Oh, I realised long ago that it’s not his real name 🙂
    He is very unoriginal and very obvious. This drivel is posted on the Guardian’s CiF all the time, and often by posters pretending to be Jewish. You get to have a feel for it.
    Which is not to say that there arent’s stupid and Jew-hating Jews aplenty.

    • Have you ever noticed that the word you use most often in your posts is ‘hate’?
      Kind of gives a feel for where you’re at.

  68. No Baruch

    I suggest you read the CIA world factbook more closely, as you have been a bit selective with your figures.

    The Palestinians get more aid per capita than anyone from the EU. On top of that, they get US aid, aid from all the oil rich gulf states (you can see the figures with citations even on Wikipedia), and Asian countries – as well as the US. The EU figure alone boosts them far ahead of any African country – despit ethe need of Palestinians not being nearly as great. Indeed, they even get aid from Israel. Oh, and they have a whole UN department dedicated solely to them. they are the only peole on earth to be given this exceptional treatment – despite their need not being nearly as great as elsewhere. It’s called politics.

    Israel gets no aid per se for her people – it gets military assistance – and only from the US – it gets nothing from the EU, Asia or Arab states. The funds mostly get ploughed back to US companies, meaning the US is in effect subsidizing its own arms manufacturers, whilst providing a testing platform for many of their systems. Israel gives the US vital intelligence in return. The Palestinians give the US nothing – except terrorism and hatred. The Palestinians also give the EU nothing – except propaganda, which is swallowed whole by unquestioning gullible people like you.

    It really is amazing – the facts stare you in the face, and you just can’t accept it.

    Your figures about US aid were laughable.

  69. Baruch, look at the Lasensky study:

    “The Oslo process marked the first great experiment in the Israeli-Palestinian context with large-scale aid, making Palestinians the largest per capita recipients of international development assistance in the world.”

    • Reduced to quoting from Wikipedia now then. Ok. So you forgot to continue your quote:
      “Hever (2005), 13, 16, and (2006), 5, 10 refutes this assessment, arguing that Israel is the biggest recipient of total foreign aid in the world.
      According to Le More (2005), 982, “the United States has also provided [the PNA with] considerable funds, even if they are negligible compared to what it allocates bilaterally to Israel — which alone far exceeds the level of combined international assistance to the Palestinians.”

      And you also forgot to mention that the ‘aid’ it reports is once again not real money – only pledges and promises – and that the disbursements-to-commitments ratio on those pledges remains low.

  70. You might alos find this interesting:

    “Palestinians receive more assistance, per capita, than any other people on Earth…”

  71. Baruch, it’s not their original homes. Most “Palestinians” have never even been to the place they are supposedly refugees from. How can you be a refugee from somewhere you’ve never been?

  72. Because it’s their ancestral home and only ever existed as a Jewish state, twice before. It has never been any other kind of state at all, just a conquered possession.
    That’s how.

  73. And Baruch’s true agenda becomes clear. He doesn’t believe the Jews should be there at all.

    Baruch, are you seriously suggesting that the Palestinians don’t get enough aid?

    I see they have money for demonising and killing Jews.

  74. Baruch

    Also confirmed in this article in the New York Sun:

  75. Yes, Baruch, the antisemitism you and other pathological creatures spew here is a form of racist hate. That’s why I use this word.
    Adam, stop confusing this pathetic creature with facts.

  76. Adam – you write “Israel gets no aid per se for her people – it gets military assistance”… Another inaccuracy but let’s put that aside for the moment.
    So your frantic Googling has pulled up a fresh doc. Let’s explore it:
    It refers to US Assistance committed to the PA. since the signing of the Oslo Accords in 1993, of an estimated $1.9 billion in bilateral economic assistance.
    The report dates back to 2007 so that’s effectively a promise of $135M per annum. Table 1. in the doc shows the US assistance actually provided over a five year period. In 3 of the 5 years it was substantially less than the ‘committed’ level.
    Even if the US were to fulfil it’s ‘commitment’ the aid per capita would be $34.
    Let’s take your original statement at face value. That Israel gets no aid for her people. Then you are absolutely correct. By that definition Palestinians receive infinitely more ‘aid’ than Israelis.
    However the $10,775.48 per capita financial assistance the US has, on average, provided to Israel between 1949 and 1996, and the $14,630 it provides for every Israeli man, woman and child every year currently (by your definition, non-aid) dwarfs the $34 the US commits to (but doesn’t necessarily make good on) – per Palestinian.
    So now you’ve brought it down to a definition of ‘aid’.
    Happy Googling.

  77. Baruch, the document even spells it out, and I provided the relevant quote. The US government contends that the Palestinians get more aid per capita than anyone else on earth. Yet still you refuse to admit your mistake.

    Why shouldn’t the Us give military support to Israel (not aid)? It is a fellow democracy with the same values – and the same strategic interests. The Palestinians give the US nothing except hatred and terror. As an American, I deeply resent Us taxpayers subsidizing the Palestinians, who have managed through corruption and terror to do nothing with their aid.

    Let’s be honest Baruch – your agenda here is that you just hate Israel. At least be honest enough to admit it.

  78. I think you are a racist Baruch. The vehemence of your visceral hatred is not the result of a rational thought process. The hysteria in your tone gives you away. And your refusal to digest facts when presented to you on a plate is a hallmark of a hater. When one scratches the surface of a rabid Israel hater, one invariably finds an antisemite.

    That’s you.

  79. Baruch – I would ask you this. Do you think the Palestinians have used the aid they received wisely? When widespread corruption and pocketing of aid into Swiss bank accounts was reported, Chris Patten, EU Commissioner at the time, replied “We need an investigation like a hole in the head.”

    The Palestinians have consistently, over years, misused the billions given to them gratis, yet you whine that they haven’t received more aid – to use for fraudulent purposes. Did it ever occur to you that the aid would be even higher if they hadn’t stolen so much of it, hadn’t used it for weapons and summer camps teaching kids to kill Jews, or hadn’t voted in an antisemitic terror group whose declared intention is to kill every Jew on earth?

    You couldn’t make it up.

    • A quick re-statement of the facts, so we can both face them together:
      Israel receives $14,630 per capita per annum (source – US Congress Report) in financial aid and assistance.
      Palestinians receive a promise of $304 per capita per annum in ‘foreign aid’ (your source). Apparently “the highest level of aid provided to any group on the planet” ….Second-only(?) to the Congo which receives $362 per capita! (again, your source).

      Your position is that the $14,630 Israel receives for each man woman and child – from the US alone – each year, is not aid. Israel receives no aid for its people.
      And therefore the $304 each Palestinian ‘receives’ each year in ‘promises’ is a higher level of aid.

      I’m not sure the logic’s entirely sound – but I understand your position.

      You end your last few posts with personal attacks and playing the ‘anti-semitic’ card (a common ploy to close down the conversation) and yet I’m the one you accuse of hysteria :
      “You couldn’t make it up”…
      No, I couldn’t. But apparently you can.

      In summary – the facts speak for themselves (and I thank you for the opportunity to share them so publicly). It seems that neither of us likes them though. But I’m more than happy to close this particular conversation down. It’s built on your ever shifting sands and therefore going precisely nowhere.

      • Yeah, but, Israel is a functioning state, that creates wealth. It represents a US investment e.g. Pentium has some of its most advance research laboratories in Israel. Israel’s GDP is something like $200 000 000 000 a year, which is one of the highest per capita in the world.

        The Palestinians have been housed, clothed and fed by UNRWA free of charge for over 60 years. They barely qualify as refugees because most still live within the borders of original British ruled Palestine, in built up suburbs, most of the rest very close to those borders.

        They create nothing. They don’t have to. They are entirely provided for, so they can dream their dreams of returning to their exact ancestral houses, villages etc, and destroying Israel.

        They don’t have to create a functioning state or society. Their leaders have consistently thought it more important to deny Jews the right to a state, that acquire or build one themselves. And silly western idiots like you are conniving in that policy.

        Most refugees do not return to their exact house, village etc. Most Jews who were displaced in the 19th and 20th centuries could not even return to the same geographical area. But, instead of depending from handouts from UNRWA (which was originally intended for Jews as well as Palestinian Arabs), they built a functioning state and society.

        Idiots like you want to partake of this mutual Palestinian fantasy of alleged ultimate justice, whereby Israel is flooded with millions of Palestinian Arab Muslims and Christians, and the one Jewish state in the world is dissolved into the sea/desert of surrounding Arab, Islamic apartheid states and societies, including the Palestinian, which, on their past history of the last 100 years and earlier, based on the criteria meted by such as you against Israel, can only be described as ‘apartheid’.

        Good luck.

        You’ll need it.

    • “[they] (voted in an) antisemitic terror group whose declared intention is to kill every Jew on earth?”
      Source, please?

      • So you’ve never heard of Hamas, right?
        You’ve got to laugh. Or something.

      • Here, Baruch, you daft little wannabe Hamas groupie:

        ‘Novemeber 5th 2010 pronouncements by co-founder and leader of Hamas, Muhammed Al-Zahhar, on Hamas’ Al Aqsa TV channel, concerning the ultimate goals of Hamas with regard to Israeli (and possibly other) Jews:

        “On this occasion, dear brothers and sisters, we cannot but recall the crimes of these criminal [Jews] throughout history. Today, we present the world with a bunch of questions, and we challenge it to answer them honestly, for today, interests overshadow moral values, elections overshadow principles, and Zionism has overshadowed the truth.
        “We ask the people of the world today: Why did France, in 1253, expel and uproot the Jewish entity, which was represented by the ghetto? Why did they expel them? Because they sucked the blood of the French, because they shed the blood of the French, slaughtered them, stole their money, and conspired against them. At the end of the day, the French had no choice but to expel them in 1253.
        “The [Jews] fled north, to Britain, and lived there for only 27 years, until the English realized the criminality of these people, who murdered them, sucked their blood, and stole their money. So they slaughtered hem, and expelled them in 1280.
        “We ask the French and the British: Why did you expel them? We ask Germany of pre-Hitler times: Why were the [Jews] expelled in 1384? We ask the [Jews] why France expelled them a second time, in 1360, why Hungary expelled them in 1360, and why Belgium expelled them in 1370.
        This was not something new – it started even before 1253, on the day that Pharaoh the tyrant expelled them because they had shed the blood of the Egyptians, and had conspired with their enemies against them. So [Pharaoh] expelled them, after they lost their religion, after the time of Joseph.
        “Was this series [of expulsions] anything new? No. After the Czechs expelled them in 1380. Austria expelled them in 1420, Holland in 1444, and Spain in 1492. Russia expelled them after they conspired to assassinate the Czar in 1882, and Germany expelled them once again in 1945.
        “The series of expulsions continues to this day. Blood continues to be shed, martyrs continue to fall, our sons continue to hoist the banner high, and Allah willing, their expulsion from Palestine in its entirety is certain to come. We are no weaker or less honorable than the peoples that expelled and annihilated the Jews. The day we expel them is drawing near. […]
        “The nation that opens up its doors, its hearts, and its homes to the [Jews] who were expelled from all corners of the earth was the Islamic nation. […]
        “We extended our hands to feed these hungry dogs and wild beasts, and they devoured our fingers. We have learned the lesson – there is no place for you among us, and you have no future among the nations of the world. You are headed to annihilation.”

        Clearly such pronouncements lend credence to those who assert that Hamas’ goals with regard to Israeli Jews, if no others, are either expulsionist or even eliminationist.

      • Let’s assume that that’s an accurate transcript.
        So now we’re expected to take the warning that – by Israel’s actions “you are headed to annihilation”
        and translate that into a stated and declared threat and ‘intention is to kill every Jew on earth’?

        Yassin – the founder of Hamas – offered Israel recognition and a peace deal requiring only that Israel withdrew to the Green Line (not even the legitimate borders defined in 1947 and in Israel’s Declaration of Independence).
        Israel however didn’t like the idea of peace, of having agreed borders and of not being able to play the victim card any more – so Sharon sent his reply to the offer of peace in the form of Hellfire missiles fired from an Apache helicopter at the wheelchair-bound man as he left a mosque.
        Israel could have had peace with Hamas in 2004. However its leaders chose to prolong the conflict instead.

      • ‘So now we’re expected to take the warning that – by Israel’s actions “you are headed to annihilation”
        and translate that into a stated and declared threat and ‘intention is to kill every Jew on earth’?’

        a) I didn’t say it did: I said it is pretty explicitly expulsionist, if not eliminationist, towards Israeli Jews, which it is.

        b) however, the warning/threat of expulsion/annihilation against the world’s Jews could certainly be interpreted as an eliminationist threat against them too.

        You really are a silly boy, Baruch: now engaging in apologetics for Hamas’ explusionist/eliminationist designs against Israeli or other Jews?

        Have you really nothing better to do than act as useful idiot for Hamas, translating its offers of hudnas, temporary truces in its professed eternal jihad until the extinction of any kind of Israel, as ‘peace’ to other gullible western idiots? You clearly aren’t expecting to convince Israeli or many other Jews, since they aren’t that daft.

        I suspect the only thing of which you will convince them is that you are an another non-Jewish Jewish apologist for the existential enemies of the Israeli Jewish people at least.

        The term ‘kapo’ does spring to mind. And I have never used it of anyone, outside of a history book, before.

        Yassin was an evil old man, who masterminded and inspired the murder of Israeli Jewish civilians, as well as a lot more besides.

      • ‘Let’s assume that that’s an accurate transcript.
        So now we’re expected to take the warning that – by Israel’s actions “you are headed to annihilation”
        and translate that into a stated and declared threat and ‘intention is to kill every Jew on earth’?’

        You really aren’t very bright, Baruch, are you?

        Al-Zahar is giving a history lesson, how every single expulsion in Jewish history, past and future, is a punishment for Jews’ essential evil ways. He even includes the Exodus, which is quite a feat for a Muslim, for whom traditionally the Israelite conquest of Canaan is the first jihad.

        He specifically alludes to the future, certain expulsion of the Jews from Israel/Palestine, and everywhere else too, and their sure annihilation.

        Either you can’t read or understand what you read, are too lazy to read, or understand, or are a non-Jewish Jewish anti-semite.

        Take your pick.

  80. Adam and Yoni

    has Baruch, the incoherent rambler, come up with examples or even one example of any substantial group of refugees who were allowed back?

    btw a nice image of anti-zionism is anti-semitism is a stone hidden in a snow-ball –
    I forgot who taught me that one but I find it very apt –

  81. Adam –
    “When widespread corruption and pocketing of aid into Swiss bank accounts was reported, Chris Patten, EU Commissioner at the time, replied “We need an investigation like a hole in the head.” ”

    Chris Patten has been a chinless, useless waste of space all his life. He and the EU are made for each other.

    Baruch rants: “the ‘anti-semitic’ card (a common ploy to close down the conversation) ”

    That’s what all antisemites say when they get found out.

  82. Baruch – the source is Hamas’ charter itself, which you obviously have never read. Hizbollah’s charter says the same – as does Nasrallah quite openly. But then you probably aren’t exposed to information like that on Israel hating and antisemitic websites. But don’t let your ignorance stop you pontificating on Israel and the Palestinians. I would have thought that it was common knowledge amongst those who take an interest in the area.

    And you keep saying “my source”. It isn’t “my” source – it is a US Congressional report. And the US gives no money for every Israeli “man woman and chld”. Israeli men women and children see none of the money given in miliary assistance – despite your deliberate and desperate misrepresentation. But US arms companies do – the US is subsidizing its own industries when it gives this assistance – another fact lost on you.

    And yet you refuse to address the issue of Palestinian corruption when aid is indeed given – and refuse to address the point that perhpas this may have an impact on donors not pouring money down the gutter so that it feathers the nests of a few Fatah officials.

    Those are the facts Baruch – facts you have refused to address – because you have no answers.

    • Less than a third of the annual figure of $14,630 per capita aid provided to Israel is for military aid, so, are you saying that the state of Israel keeps all international aid handed to it to itself, and it doesn’t flow down and benefit the people?
      But then in the very next sentence berate me for not saying that the Palestinians don’t spend their ‘aid’ wisely!
      That’s rich.

  83. Exactly Yoni! And what a surprise Patten turned out to be yet another (non-elected) anti-Israel obsessive. No wonder he didn’t want to look at the billions in squandered aid (Arafat alone is reputed to have stolen a billion). Yet Baruch thinks it’s not enough. and that the West should waste even more money on those who hate us.

    Isn’t it amazing that obsessive hysterical haters of the Jewish state, who ignore evidence put before them and hold Israel and the Jews to a different standard to anywhere else on this planet- are never antisemitic.

    We must be imagining it.

  84. Silke, no he hasn’t. But then what do you expect from someone who holds Jews to a different standard to others?

  85. just to give some perspective to the rantings
    and if one of the little darlings should pipe up show them as contrast program videos of Gaza affluence – “Enjoy!”

    The horror of Palestinian Arab refugee camps

    • As you seem to be a fan of YouTube and the topic’s changed slightly, here’s a perspective for you too:

      Bear in mind that he offered Israel recognition and a peace agreement in 2004. The response to that offer came in the form of a hellfire missile.

  86. do I remember correctly that Jimmy Carter claims to have witnessed a UFO once?
    that 9/11 was pepertrated by ???
    and JFK was shot by ???
    Diana was murdered by ???

    ah yes and the German army lost WW1 due to a stab in the back …

    last but not least Elvis is alive – that incidentally is the one I firmly believe

    • I can’t speak for what you remember – either correctly or incorrectly.
      But the hellfire missile which murdered the peace deal and recognition held out by the founder of Hamas in 2004 was definitely ordered by Sharon.

  87. I am a fan of the job the Elder of Ziyon does …
    most of all I like his ability to write simple but invariably beautiful prose – no pète manqué at work there
    also he is refreshingly committed to accuracy
    what have I not yet mentioned?
    ah yes a sense of humour and a proneness to self-deprecation

    and he designs beautiful T-shirts like this one

    and if I weren’t restricted to one link per comment I could go on to praise others by equally intelligent and integer and skilled word-smiths as extensively – as for example the one of our admired by me host Richard Millett.

  88. I’m feeling a bit ashamed of myself but I have to admit that this “blessed” makes me kind of long for the good ol’ times when the enhance you-know-what trolled around here.

  89. I have a big soft spot for Sharon – he is the kind of man I would trust to protect me well

  90. You are of course aware of the irony that Dr Dalit Baum is a very out Lesbian.

  91. More revisionist garbage from baruch. the antisemites and terrorists of Hamas, whose declared intention is the extermination of the Jewish people, want peace – and the pesky Jews of democratic Israel love more war.

    What a piece of garbage. Your defence of Hamas is disgusting.

  92. Any more thoughts about the palestinians’ use of “aid” Baruch?

    You haven’t had any so far. Nor have you replied to Silke’s question.

  93. Whilst you’re at it baruch, read Hamas’ charter – the capter on “peace talks” is most illuminating (i.e. they mock the very notion of it, and excplicitly state that Jihad is the ONLy acceptable path).

    You can also investigate the concept of taqiyya.

  94. “But the hellfire missile which murdered the peace deal and recognition”

    You have to laugh at idiots like this one. Hamas offered peace and recognition … yeah, right.

  95. I just read this great piece which Baruch will certainly debunk for us:

    November is the cruellest month
    With thanks for his research to Eliyahu and acknowledgements to The Jews of Arab Lands in Modern Times by Norman Stillman

  96. What a surprise. Baruch has gone quiet, unable to answer Silke or admit the misuse of aid to Palestinians.


  97. He’s also ducked all my points 🙂

  98. he’s gone duckety ducking quak quak 🙂

  99. Is this apologist for Hamas’ expulsionist or eliminationist anti-semitism, Baruch, really a significant figure in the anti-Ahava demos?