Banned from Parliament

I’d like to be writing a report of a meeting I attended in Parliament last night but unfortunately I was banned from entering.

The title of the talk was:

The “Jewish character” of the State of Israel, its meaning and significance, political discrimination, and the condition of Arabs in Israel.

It wasn’t a case of “not on the list you’re not coming in” but of “don’t like your views you’re not coming in”.

I had had emailed Samira of MEMO (Middle East Monitor) last Friday (23 July) to ask if I could come to last night’s meeting. I received no response so I went along to Committee Room 14 last night.

While I was queuing I was approached by Tom Eisner, of MEMO and Jews for Justice for Palestinians, who recognised me although we had never met before.

He asked if I was here to disrupt the meeting. I said I wasn’t and I had never done so in the past. He then asked for a guarantee of maybe £200, forfeited if I got ejected for disruption. I think he was joking but he did say I could go in. I asked if he could have a word with the registration-table as I had not received any response to my email.

But by then other fingers were pointing and suddenly three police officers were bearing down on me. One officer grasped my upper arm and forcibly led me away. My details were taken and I was escorted out of Parliament.

Jeremy Corbyn MP, who was hosting the meeting, passed me by and I asked if I could go to the meeting but he ignored me. I didn’t see Tom Eisner again for dust.

Later on Jonathan Hoffman was similarly banned. One of the meeting’s attendees said to him: “As a Muslim I wouldn’t be allowed into a Zionist meeting”.

Well I have been to a few pro-Israel meetings in my time, I admit, and in the audience there have been people of all races and religions. I have never seen anyone thrown out or banned unless on the odd occurrence they had made such a disturbance that it was impossible for the meeting to continue.

I don’t know the rules of Parliament but I am surprised that an MP can treat it as her or her own personal fiefdom. Parliament is for all surely. If one wants to hold a private meeting then hold it in a house, not the House. Jeremy Corbyn MP does not own Parliament.

In past meetings at Parliament I have reported awful statements made about both Jews and Israelis. In future such statements can go unreported as all anti-Israel Parliamentary meetings will be by guest list only.

A friend of mine who did manage to gain entry (will he also now be stopped from entering next time?) spoke up in the meeting and at the end was surrounded and intimidated. This was witnessed by the police and recorded.

If I had seen someone being questioned by three police officers like I was I would have enquired what was happening and requested that that person be allowed in to the meeting.

Shamefully, last night in their haste to get into yet another anti-Israel Parliamentary meeting no one spoke up for that basic democratic right.

106 responses to “Banned from Parliament

  1. It’s outrageous.
    Interesting that they recognised you!
    Would a burkha help?

  2. Jonathan Hoffman

    http://www.thejc.com/blogpost/uk-parliament-only-righteous-jews-allowed-in

    Here is my blog on the same subject. I completely agree on the immorality of having a meeting in Parliament and calling it ‘private’. If Corbyn and his cronies want a private meeting then they must bloody well pay for a room or use someone’s house.

    They do not abuse Parliamentary privilege.

  3. Richard, like others, I am outraged. Please make this as widely known as possible.

    There may be a case for taking this to the Speaker or the Commons authorities.

    This is not about Israel only, it is about Free Speech and the concept of private meetings in the House of Commons.

    I wonder what would have happened if a Jewish Israeli MK had showed up to a private meeting arranged by a pro-Israel MP.

    I think we know the answer.

  4. But, really, should we be surprised? The Leftist concept of democracy is everyone agreeing (and if you don’t then you’re anti-democratic). Remember the loooooooong standing ovations at the Soviet Party Congresses when everyone was looking out of the corner of their eyes to see who would stop clapping first? That’s what Corbyn et al want – mindless re-affirmation. Of course, they feel they do have not only the right but the duty to disrupt the meetings of those nasty Zionists. It’s a classic case of projection that they should assume that Richard would want to do the same at their meeting.

  5. Let us know, if there is an MSM outlet that is willing to publish yours and Jonathan’s story, if there should be none, they’ll have confirmed their uselessness again and that to me who witnesses their demise with angst.

    • Is there an office holder for maintaining Westminster books, or a select commitee?

      Instead of writing to one’s MP, one could write to that individual.

    • Oh, Daniel, I was trying to forget that. Lots of my neighbours think Mum hasn’t left because her clothes are always on the washing line.

      But I know it’s not her wearing them.

    • and there I am wondering why Gert’s latest attracted a guy, who poses like a wannabe Marlon Brando but whose muscles look definitely anabolica enhanced to me and who fittingly reads adequately challenged in the logics department.

      But now you’ve reminded me of drag that explains it. I’ve always suspected them MuckiBuden (muscle shop) guys to be attracted to that drag sporting community. If that’s not true, then you guys should prove it by joining the pro-Zio crowd.

      knowing Gert the way I do I presume he prefers this style http://www.yatego.com/q,naturana,strumpfhalter

      does anybody know if those are Hamas approved? http://elderofziyon.blogspot.com/2010/07/new-battle-hamas-versus-lingerie.html

      • Silke, is that Mr. Kane? He’s scary!

      • Gertie’s Daughter,
        yes it’s a fellow named Kane and in his first comment he links to an amply commented website that is even more scary.

        interesting though Kane says in his profile that he is into EmissionsGeschäft (Business). He says it in German and in German a fart would qualify as an emission and mothers talking to their offspring call a solid emission a Geschäft.

        the way I read him Kane thinks he’s a highly sophisticated wit but I am at a loss as to what secret message Joe90 is supposed to confer.

      • Silke, that poor, distraught girl is right. Joe90 hangs around various Scottish blogs (and can also be found at Socialist Lunacy, where he once suggested a genocide of Zionists would “make a change”).

        He has a fondness for Israeli/Nazi allusions and going off on spiels which no-one can penetrate, as he talks about everyone in the third person.

        He is, at the root of it, very thick.

  6. Franne Frank

    Escorted out of Parliament, as well as Portcullis House!

    You got what you deserved, you schmucks!

  7. I thought Jeremy “I Never Have Met a Fascist Murder Gang I Did Not Like” Corbyn had stood down. Or was that Oct0pus Boy (except for “stand done” read “kicked out”).

  8. This is somewhat disingenuous.

    Firstly anti-Zionists have not only been removed from Zionist meetings, as a matter of course by CST thugs, but they have invariably been physically attacked. The JC reported at the JNF meeting that a protestor was punched and hit. The same happened at the outdoor rally at Trafalgar Square supporting the attack on Gaza. At the David Bellamy meeting that never was at the Institute, 2 people were physically ejected by CST for merely asking polite questions.

    And at the meeting with Hajo Meyer on holocaust memorial day Jonathan Hoffman and whole bunch of people deliberately did their best to disrupt and interrupt.

    It is not therefore surprising that people like Richard Millett, who I agree has never disrupted meetings I have been at, have therefore been banned. Jonathan Hoffman himself is a past master at disruption.

    • Firstly anti-Zionists have not only been removed from Zionist meetings, as a matter of course by CST thugs, but they have invariably been physically attacked.

      Tony, are you refering to the time Deborah Fink went mad?

      You, of course, know all about… shall we say… innovative stagings. Such as the time you launched a Jew-exclusive group in a church on a Friday, and started fighting with another Jew.

    • from abroad I dare to ask:
      what does CST stand for? police? I guess we are not yet back in 68 where they’d be synched with thugs (Bullenschweine)
      the acronym finder leaves me at a loss because I assume neither Central Standard Time nor Catholic Social Teaching syncs with thugs.

      Were Zios behaving as “politely” as these? and no I do not mean the transcript I’m referring to the audio http://www2.lse.ac.uk/publicEvents/events/2009_09-12/20091026t1730vSZT.aspx
      if I get it right the LSE is something like a uni, shouldn’t they be the first to uphold rights to freedom of speech and a minimum of politeness towards invited guests?

      • Community Service Trust, Silke.

        The events which Greenstein refers to might have happened (stopped clocks, and all that), but in all honesty, I don’t believe anything he says out of principle.

        Ask him about hanging around with people who suggest the destruction of synagogues is a reasonable response to Israeli policy and who believe the Purim story is a justification for an attack on Iran.

        There’s a story from 1982 about his reducing a teenage girl to tears ‘cos she was wearing an Israeli badge. Nearby men separated them, whilst one of their girlfriends led the lass away with a mock whisper “don’t mind Tony, he’s just being an arsehole”.

        That, apparently, became a catchphrase on the circuit during the 80s.

  9. “Community Service Trust, Silke.”

    LOL, it’s actually the “Community Security Trust”.

    Richard does note at the end that his friend did disrupt the meeting, so it seems that in this case the police were correct in assuming that Richard and Jonathon might seek to disrupt the meeting.

    CST in action: http://www.bricup.org.uk/news/GreenwashDay.htm

    • richardmillett

      ftp, i didn’t say he disrupted, i said he spoke up……basically he asked a question during the Q&A.

    • ftp
      oh thanks a lot, you seem to be the kind of person who can answer a question I have:

      what is the organisation equivalent to CST for the muslim community of Britain?

      how am I ever going to decide which side to be on, if you guys don’t give me access to comparables?

      and shouldn’t the UK be ashamed of itself that a need for such an organization is felt by any of its communities?

      Also I think it was (in March 2009 between jobs) Director Gert Meyers from Bridlington who taught me that guilt by association is impermissible/pernicious/evil? How can you fall Gert into the back by going for that kind of argument towards Richard now? (I resorted to a translation from the German since stab in the back seemed to melodramatic in effect)

      You really are confusing me. Are you so many that there is no need to proselytize left?

      and shouldn’t Brits be ashamed that their country needs an outfit like CST at all?

      • “what is the organisation equivalent to CST for the muslim community of Britain?”

        I’m not aware that there is one.

        “shouldn’t the UK be ashamed of itself that a need for such an organization is felt by any of its communities?”

        As far as I can see there were no violent acts towards the community before the CST was set up in 1994.
        http://www.thecst.org.uk/downloads/Terrorist_Incidents_Report.pdf

        “shouldn’t Brits be ashamed that their country needs an outfit like CST at all?”

        Again I haven’t seen any evidence that they do much except collect (disputed) stats and evict anti-zionists from zionist meetings.

        Perhaps someone can show evidence that they are needed?

      • ftp
        you are opening a new world to me (wonderful list btw and I fully agree incidents as reported on that list should never lead to any protective measures. One must always refrain from exaggeration and keep things in perspective.)

        You mention that CST was set up in 1994, where do I find that information confirmed and more about the reason? To my foreign eyes they look like a private government hybrid, is that correct?

        And please don’t mix again apples and pears if you should deem me worthy of another answer. Whether protection is needed and whether the organisation in charge is an effective one are two totally different subjects and you don’t want to expose yourself to be as scatterbrained as my beloved Gert or let alone that even more enigmatic (to use a polite word) Joe 90.

        26 July 1994, London
        A car bomb exploded outside the Israel
        Embassy in Kensington, causing severe
        structural damage and injuring fourteen
        people, including embassy staff and a
        policeman. Samar Alami and Jawad Botmeh,
        two Palestinians loosely connected to
        the PFLP, were sentenced to twenty years for
        the bombing of both the Embassy, and of
        Balfour House the following evening.
        27 July 1994, London
        A second car bomb exploded outside the
        Balfour House, Finchley offices of the Joint
        Israel Appeal and Zionist Federation,
        causing blast damage to the front of
        the building and the buildings opposite
        and injuring five people.

    • My bad. But, then, I was working from memory whilst you had Mr Hoffman’s name right in front of you, and still spelled it wrongly.

      Then linked to Bricup, which runs off Israeli Internet-design.

      • Alec
        no problem with your first I went back to my list of acronyms and found the right CST immediately. After all we pro-Israel-ites are not as thick as some people we come across every here and there.😉
        Come to think of it I am more and more convinced that those on the other side suffer from an as yet not properly diagnosed variety of legasthenia. I found that in a mild form it is quite wide-spread with chemists, engineers, etc. but when they get enthralled by bad logic in a field for which they had no proper training it tends to wreak havoc with their powers of judgment and general mental state.

        that Bricup thingy btw didn’t look enticing at first glance and the name reminded me too much of hick-up which may become so painful that I rather avoid the risk.

  10. OK. let’s establish a few facts here. Mr Greenstein, two wrongs do not make a right. If peaceful anti Zionists have been ejected from a public pro Israel meeting, that is wrong and does not justify anything else. If they were there to be disruptive, that is a different matter, though that does not excuse physical violence, if indeed that happened.

    Mr. Millett had a right, a sacrosanct right, to attend a public meeting in Parliament and his removal, without good reason, was simply disgraceful.

    Richard – I would write a formal protest letter to your MP and send one to the Speaker of the House too. You might want to CC Mr. Corbyn in too so that he knows you are taking this issue extremely seriously. I would do no less under the same circumstances.

  11. Hmm, you can try complaining – but as the poster clearly says: You will not be able to get into the event venue without a printed email showing that you have registered”, I doubt you’ll get very far.

    I shudder to think what question your friend asked, and am highly sceptical about the claim that he was subjected to intimidation in front of the police.

  12. I’m disappointed that Richard appears to have forgotten the conversation he and I had when he was being detained by two police officers (this isn’t a dispute about numbers, the third was speaking with the people on the door about Richard’s attendance). It was from Richard himself that I learnt he had been removed by the police from the meeting. It was to Richard I asked if he had registered in advance. And when I said “see you later” to him, it was Richard who – a tad melodramatically I feel, though when one’s adrenalin is up, one says such things – “not if I’m in prison!”

    Let’s be absolutely clear. I disagree with a good deal of what Richard says – and he with me. But we have afforded one another enough respect in the past for me to feel entirely comfortable to invite Richard to the meeting JfJfP organised in Parliament in March; to invite him to publicise it to his contacts and to submit a question – which I took. I was interested in organising an event which reflected a variety of opinions, which is why we had Afif Safieh, One Voice, Daphna Baram and the Anglo-Israel Association on the platform.

    Let’s be still clearer: had I been the organiser of the meeting last night I would have had no hesitation in extending a welcome to Richard and should he recall the conversation we had last night and update his blog accordingly, I would be entirely comfortable welcoming him in the future as has been the case at other meetings in and out of Parliament in the past. If he has trouble remembering what actually happened, perhaps he could ask one of the police officers, who were sitting either side of Richard when I spoke with him or with the third officer, of whom I enquired about Richard’s welfare when I left the meeting.

    Over to you Richard.

    • richardmillett

      Dan, you rushed passed in a hurry to get to the meeting as it was just starting and you made no attempt to gain me entry. But thanks for asking after me after the meeting.

      As for my comment about prison, which i made when you were already well past me and in response to your “see you later”, please allow me a bit of humour having just been treated so unreasonably roughly, which you didn’t witness.

      • I’m Richard’s friend who was at the meeting.

        During the meeting, I asked Jamil Zahalka to clarify something and did not challenge further. After the meeting, outside the room, I asked a question (without raising my voice) of Haneen Zoubi about the flotilla. Everyone around me was shouting answers at me.

        Then two big guys shouted at me, ‘Are you a Zionist?’. I just said I’m an ordinary British guy asking a question. They were closely following me down the hall.

        The Police could see it was getting heated and led me away FOR MY OWN PROTECTION. 4 or 5 pro-Palestinian women sat /stood by me while a policeman wrote down what happened. I have a copy of it. It says ‘he was surrounded by a group of people who were shouting at him.’

        Next time I attend one of these meetings, I’ll bring this slip of paper with me. That way, anyone accusing me of making trouble will see that I was the one who was intimidated.

  13. ‘A friend of mine who did manage to gain entry (will he also now be stopped from entering next time?) spoke up in the meeting and at the end was surrounded and intimidated.’

    In Committee Room 14 we did have a very good question from Geoff Leaver (sp?) about democracy in other states e.g. Saudi Arabia.

    I subsequently discussed this with him; he was not ‘surrounded and intimidated’.

    Perhaps RM will be more specific if his friend is happy to be identified.

    • richardmillett

      Richard, it isn’t for me to mention anyone but feel free to contact the police at Parliament.

  14. Jonathan Hoffman

    Ask Greenstein about when he disrupted the Jerusalem String Quartet. And about his lie on his blog “Hoffman Lied When Claiming He was a Victim of anti-Semitism.” He is a Trot who employs Stalinist tactics of trying to silence free speech and denying antisemitism.

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  17. That’s the nitty gritty of it all, Jonathan, of course. The far left is totalitarian. These Jewish colluders with Israel’s enemies remind me of the unreconstructed old Stalinists who even in the 1970s were denying the reality of Soviet antisemitism. They and the islamofascists are opposite sides of the same coin.

  18. Greenstein’s cultural vandalism in front of the Jerusalem Quartet was a disgusting display of bigotry – musicians whose “crime” it is to be Israeli Jews. As a music lover, and defender of culture above politics, it offended every bone of my body. I was delighted that the concert was rescheduled, and received a standing ovation.

    No-one can ever take this jerk seriously again.

  19. I’ve blogged about this now.

  20. Daniel Marks

    One day we’ll have a country of our own where nobody will be able to exclude us from anywhere or anything just because we’re Jews or Zionists.

    One day we’ll all live there, in our own democracy and we won’t have to beg for a place at the non-Jew’s table or at the anti-Zionists feast.

    We’ll bring up our children to be proud of their country and proud to be Jews. We’ll have our own flag, our own army, and our own police force and, can you imagine? Our own parliament too. I bet you we’ll argue all the time.

    And if there are non-Jews choose to live in our country and accept Jewish sovereignty, we’ll give them the respect that we were not always given. Can you imagine?

    Hang on! I just heard that such a country already exists. Apparently the women are beautiful and the weather there is great too. Nobody calls you “fucking Jew” either, honestly. What are we all waiting for?

    Last one on the plane is a ….

    • Franne Frank

      No, I can’t imagine Israel giving non-Jews the respect that Jews were not always given. History proves me right.

      Your fantasy country was already inhabited by Palestinians who were already living there. Most lost their land – and many their lives – caused by those who have the audacity to call themselves Jews.

      I wonder if you definition of ‘respect’ includes passing apartheid laws, evicting families, demolishing homes, torture and the reckless murder of men, women and children? Sounds like a democracy to me.

      Zionism is a racist curse that favours Jews over every other ethnic group.

      Most sensible Jews won’t even board the aircraft, knowing what a hellhole Israel is.

  21. Franne Frank,

    What a load of codswallop! Israel is the only democracy of the region, with a free press, an independent judiciary, respect for human rights enshrined in law and free and fair elections – indeed, it is everything that it’s neighbours aren’t.

    Your views are clearly in a minority – seen the latest poll?

    • Adam
      if somebody with a moniker word-playing on Anne Frank slanders Israel he/she is …
      feel free to insert whatever you feel like

      No Matter How You Boo and Bray
      ISRAEL Is Here To Stay

    • Franne Frank

      Fair elections? Youre joking! How many Senior Israeli politicians are Palestinian? How many Palestinian MK’s received death threats? Zionists bring shame, dishonour and disgrace to moral Jews. Gaza reminds me what I read about the Warsaw Ghetto. You Zionists should hang your heads in shame!

      • richardmillett

        Surely you have something better to do in your life than diminish the Holocaust. Whoever you are, you must be a truly sickening individual.

      • Richard

        Franne claiming that she can read (she is so vicious, she must be a she) must be taken with a grain of salt. Probably she can decipher words and recognize them, but string them together and anything beyond a slogan is likely to cause her debilitating headaches.

        Therefore I am not sure whether we should dare to ask her to compare something simple like the development of “demographics”? Do you think she will consider UNRWA trustworthy enough to believe their reports or will she denounce even them as a “Zionist” stooge and claim to know better? That said what do you think she may consider to be trustworthy information on the Warsaw Ghetto?

        Educating those who think they are witty and original while callously playing games with Anne Frank’s name*) is extemely difficult but as I have been indoctrinated into Christian thinking in school I feel obliged to try and try and try always keeping in mind that the operating modes of the brains of the Frannes of this world are so precarious that any complexity might finally render them useless.

        *) Franne just in case you don’t know what you are doing:
        she was barely a teenager when she was murdered and a fate like that is no material for facile imbecilities at least not in polite company, that is if that still has a meaning where you hang out.

      • How many Senior Israeli politicians are Palestinian?

        One – assuming you mean the post-1960 definition of “Palestinian” – has acted as President. Good enough?

        It always is creepy when someone assumes the identity of a murdered 14 year old girl.

  22. richardmillett

    Thanks for not inserting, Silke. The defamation laws are so overly strict in this country that one is not allowed to even publish the truth. But I agree with you.

    This is the sickening statement for me:
    “Most lost their land – and many their lives – caused by those who have the audacity to call themselves Jews.”

    audacity to call themselves Jews! We are Jewish whether we call ourselves it or not and which has sadly got us into so much trouble in the past.

    As for he/her knowledge it should know that there never was a country of Palestine and that the small population at the time was mixed Jewish, Muslim, Chistian etc. and the population was only about 5% of what it is now. Therefore most of the land was uninhabited.

    And if Israel had been created before 1948 on even a tiny part of what the Jews agreed to under the Peel Commission then an extra six million Jews would still be alive today. But his/her beloved Palestinians blocked that.

    The rest is history.

  23. Daniel Marks

    Hi Franne Frank,

    Actually, on this occasion, I wasn’t trying to start another argument with an ignorant, Jew-hater.

    You have either never been to Israel or are intentionally lying. In the former case you’re pig ignorant and in the latter you’re no better or worse than any other Anti-Semite.

    I defy you to find me 12 “apartheid” laws that have been passed in Israel which are not similar to those of any other Western Democracy. List them with their dates and then we’ll talk about your other blood libels.

    Actually, my comments were aimed at your Jewish countrymen, telling them to come home, and as a good Jew-hater you ought to be the first to support me.

    Let us at least both agree that the world would be a better place if the likes of R. millet and
    J. Hoffman packed their bags and went back to where they came from. It’s a win-win,

    • Daniel
      my cultural sensibilities are deeply offended by your use of the term “pig-ignorant”

      it is an insult to pigs

      all farmers I ever spoke to assured me that pigs are amongst the most intelligent animals imaginable all the way up there with dogs and some claim even higher up than them.

      This is a fact btw that all pig-eating humankind tries to conveniently forget every time when they sneer at dog-eating humankind.

      in short I vote for never insulting animals by comparing them to humans of the you-know-who kind or anybody else as deficient in manners and knowledge as they are.

  24. Jasmine Murphy

    I understand that at least Jonathan Hoffman was born in the UK. Are you suggesting that all people of a non-specified group (perhaps Jews & Mohammedans) ”come from” somewhere else?

    • Well, a newspaper (the Guardian?) though it relevant to point out that the name Hoffman was of “North European Jewish extraction”.

    • Alec

      do you think the Guardian has told that to all the Germans by that name?
      – the most common way to spell it i.e. hofmann shows almost 40.000 entries in our by now far from complete national telephone directory (people can opt out and obviously do it a lot). The more “exotic” spelling of “hoffman” still shows 150 and then add to that the other possible variations plus the ones with an added s. I’d assume that in such a large number are quite some with an Ahnenpass (ancestor passport) proving their Aryanship beyond reasonable doubt.

      But if the Guardian says differently then well then it must be not just another very common name like Hinz or Kunz but an indicator of Jewish extraction. Do you think they get paid for coming up with such nonsense? I think I am rather good in thinking up nonsensical stuff so if they pay more than the 75 they are said to pony up for one of their CIFs I might apply

      • Just to make clear, I dunno if it were the Gruan… but one publication definitely did feel the need to point that out when reporting one of Jonathan’s misbehavings.

        Funnily, when discussing Norman Finklestein, it doesn’t observe that his surname means Fool’s Gold.

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  26. Jonathan Hoffman

    @Daniel Marks

    Where would you like me to go? And why?

  27. Daniel Marks

    Jonathan Hoffman,

    I don’t want you to “go”. Like Richard says I want you to come. Israel needs decent, caring Jews like you and Richard.

    As regards “Why?”, do I really need to explain?

    Long-legged Silke,

    What you say about pigs may be correct. I’ve made a life’s study of Orwell’s Animal Farm, and he certainly agrees with you.

    “The work of teaching and organising the others fell naturally upon the pigs, who were generally recognised as being the cleverest of the animals.

    In Judaism the pig is seen as a hypocrite. There are two signs that characterize the kosher animal: 1) it chews its cud, 2) it has split hooves.

    The swine has split hooves but does not chew its cud. When it lies down, it stretches out its split hooves as if to say, “See, I am kosher,” while trying to hide the fact that it does not chew its cud.

    Back to Franne, a good example of her pig-ignorance (apologies to Snowball) might be:

    “How many Senior Israeli politicians are Palestinian?”

    Interestingly Franne cautiously inserts the adjective “senior” obviously under the impression that some junior Israeli politicians are Palestinian.

    Of course, no Palestinian are Israeli politicians as no Israelis are Palestinian politicians, likewise no Canadians are US politicians, senior or otherwise. Israel has democratic elections where Israelis choose Israeli politicians – Jews, Moslem, Druze, Bedouin etc and the Palestinian authority has elections where Palestinians choose their leaders.

    I have intentionally chosen a simple non-controversial fact that can easily be verified by Israeli, Arab or any other sources in order to illustrate what I would call “pig ignorance”.

    Incidentally, In this case I’m pretty sure that Franne was not trying to mislead, but genuinely did not know the most basic of facts. What Gert might call “hasbara”.

  28. Daniel
    glad to learn that Orwell is no stranger to you. So many who talk about him these days obviously never read him.

    as to Franne I found a remark that might interest her but I’m afraid the complexities of its implications may damage her brain functions beyond repair. That’s why I’m offering this remark of FAZ, our most serious and trustworthy newspaper. first to you – also my prejudices lead me to believe that Jews are the best in judging what’s ethically permissible.

    After having told us that Hezbollah has asked employers, who feel friendly towards it, not to employ Syrian guest workers any longer the article then proceeds to tell us that

    “Im schiitischen Süden Beiruts sind daher in den vergangenen sehr viele Gastarbeiter aus Bangladesch gesehen worden.” link below
    =
    “that’s why in the shiite south of Beirut during the past …*) have been seen so many guest workers from Bangladesh.”

    in case you think Franne needs further info I’ll be happy to look up the number of Palestinians in Lebanon, who I seem to remember dimly are granted no work permits.

    *) (whether it’s days, weeks, months or years is omitted probably because they have like so many other MSM fired their editors)

    I object to your calling divine Marlene’s legs long, her’s suggested nothing of the Barbie ideal in fashion these days. http://www.wayodd.com/funny-pictures2/funny-pictures-anorexic-barbie-Pe7.jpg
    she not only had them but she also knew what to do with them http://einestages.spiegel.de/hund-images/2008/10/10/27/7841b77b1b3feec45609430e25c9c7ef_image_document_large_featured_borderless.jpg

    http://www.faz.net/s/RubB30ABD11B91F41C0BF2722C308D40318/Doc~ED58F2BD5AD4B420D84FEEAB49B5557EB~ATpl~Ecommon~Scontent~Afor~Eprint.html

  29. Hi, Rich,
    I have posted this on JH as well- all is not lost!!

    http://www.demotiximages.com/news/399722/english-national-alliance-feat-edl-march-london

  30. Daniel Marks

    I AM NOT A RABBI, FAR FROM IT!!

    That being said.

    “Is whale meat treif? Is pegged Halakially acceptable in a sexual relationship?”

    Whale meat is not kosher for the reasons that you guessed. Because the whale has neither split hooves nor chews the cud.

    Regarding your second question, I had to look up the expression “pegging”. Neither had I heard of the term, nor the practice.

    I guess we’re talking about a maritial relationship and in that context I can’t see any reason why it should be wrong.

    There’s a gemara somewhere where one rabbi argues exclusively for the missionary position, while the other uses an analogy of a plate being turned upside down to say that you should do it in the way that’s best for you (plural). Since, anyway, the act we’re talking about isn’t halachically considered to be intercourse, I see no big problem.

    I would recommend before doing anything, to consult a modern rabbi, an open-minded doctor and a sexologist. Maybe also a dry cleaner.

  31. “open-minded doctor”

    at least for a male it probably is cheaper and of higher educational value to read “it” up in Christopher Isherwood’s Berlin Diaries which may be even free of charge available in a library.

  32. Daniel Marks

    Any thoughts about whales or “pegging”, Silke?

  33. Franne Frank

    The truth hurts.

  34. Michael Goldman

    One would have thought that the pig would try to hide even his split hooves lest he be gobbled up by a hungry G-d fearing Jew who forgets about the cud chewing thing, but for some unfathonable reason he does exactly the opposite.
    Bloody hypocrite of a pig!

  35. well Daniel
    I must admit I am a bit at a loss like I am quite often when one of these insider-quarrels are going on.
    And it starts with are you and Alec and the others into a controversy or a rough but basically good natured banter?
    ……
    as to pegging I really recommend Isherwood who describes what happens to the orifice if not treated with TLC (tender loving care) and I think women should also read him before they indulge in the practice. I must admit though that I am too much of a snob to allow polypropylene or anything similar to be introduced.
    ……
    as to whales I am kind of glad that there are people who refuse to eat them. There is a gruesome scene of whale killing described in here http://www.amazon.de/Afield-Vintage-Contemporaries-Susanna-Kaysen/dp/0679753761/ref=sr_1_8?ie=UTF8&s=books-intl-de&qid=1280692163&sr=1-8

    The biggest of the kind I’ve come close to were dolphins accompanying a 5 m long rowing boat, springing out of the water every now and then. It’s hard to imagine one would want to kill and eat something so beautiful but once it’s cut up and in the shops I don’t say no to lamb chops so I guess I’d vote for bipolar in that case too. (and when you have seen a fisher’s net after they had a go at it you understand why they love and hate them at the same time)

  36. Daniel Marks

    Silke,

    I’ve never met Alec, and judging by his questions regarding “pegging” and whales am not sure I’d want to. Certainly not when he’s dressed like a lady or serving dinner.

    Moshe (AKA Michael) Goldman is a different kettle of fish and has earned himself no small amount of notoriety by his groundbreaking theory regarding Adolf Hitler. He and his learned son-in-law have claimed that the aforementioned dictator did in fact have chicken feet. Their main proof being that Adolf’s toes were rarely photographed.

    More than a year ago Goldman promised to fully look into the matter and produce the names of other learned scholars who support his thesis. These names have not yet been forthcoming.

    Just to clarify, Goldman’s contention is not that Hitler had chicken legs in the eating way. He believes that his feet were those of the bird.

    And he is one of my best friends – just imagine!

    • Believe it or not, this arose in a discussion I had with an Chassid who argued that loving relationships between two men could be conducted in accordance with the Halakha… but that it was specifically the act of anal penetration which was prohibited.

      I asked if this extended to pegging (or “tofflewombling” as I once heard it delightfully described; although this can also be man-on-woman action) which *some* of us hets are partial to.

      He didn’t know, and didn’t feel the leading to Ask a Rabbi.

      Also, did Stalin not have web-toes?

      • Alec
        I am convinced that you have the most exquisite tastes in whichever field you chose to find your kicks in.

        As to hets partiality to this or that, the guys I knew who grew up with “it” as a necessity to keep their pre-marital loved ones “intact” didn’t care one hoot for “it”, if they had a choice.

  37. Daniel
    now these are stunning news
    – are you implying that Adolf’s toes have ever been photographed?

    If such a photograph existed, given the notoriety and celebrity of the subject ,I am sure you could make enough money out of it to provide Ma’ale Adumim with one or even several of those Gazan style swimming pools.

    Thinking about it I realize that there is another void in my knowledge of the guy: which kind of carpet did he preferably bite into? Persian? if so from which area and age? Was it the same carpet or style of carpet all the time? and so on and so on – just imagine how much money there would be in offering carpets suitable for biting Adolf style as a brand to the ever eager public?

    Of course one would have to have the replicas produced in China, can’t give any business to the Iranians right now, but as the Chinese are said to be flexible I don’t see much of an obstacle there.

    Does your friend Moshe know whether Adolf towards the end already had his third teeth and whether that influenced his carpet biting preferences?

    Ahh to be young again how I’d love to devote my life to writing a thesis on all that.

    To get your obviously very learned friend Moshe interested, did Adolf do the biting barefoot or with his shoes on. If barefoot how much damage did the carpet suffer from his chicken toe nails digging into it?

  38. Daniel Marks

    “The truth hurts.” – Franne Frank

    Sorry about that Franne. If it was me to whom you were refering, I sincerely had no intention of hurting you (or offending any innocent porkers) when I called you pig-ignorant.

    My only purpose was to encourage you to do a bit more research before coming out with wild statements. Knowledge should never pain you, Franne.

    Regarding your outrageous utterances about the Gaza Strip, why not knock yourself out, and actually make a trip there to check things out?

    I think it was Goethe who said that thinking is more interesting than knowing, but less interesting than looking.

    • Franne Frank

      You’ve got the wrong end of the stick. I was referring to you and your other ‘pig-ignorant’ Zionists.

      Whenever you hear the truth about the satanic state of israel, it must hurt. You become so physically and verbally abusive. It must be intolerable to be so ignorant about whats truly happening.

      Time is on our side.

      • Franne
        Goethe said that Hope is one of the greatest enemies of mankind, he was as Daniel rightfully stated a very good observer, so beware!!! stop doing it, it might permanently damage your remaining miniscule powers of thinking.
        (Amazing enough that Goethe-thingy is in my copy of Faust 2 which was printed ages ago in East-Germany, makes one wonder about the efficiency of their censors, doesn’t it?)

        As to becoming abusive, I can understand that our brillance in thinking up new abuses or giving old ones new twists makes you very very jealous and that hurts. If I were as challenged in the department of independent thinking as you are, that’s how I would feel too.

        But with one remark you outsmarted me: how can one physically abuse another over the net? Are you maybe one of these smart kids who know how to do moniker stealing?

  39. Daniel Marks

    Franne Frank,

    I live in the Middle East and have for three decades. I am a lecturer and educator by profession.

    1. Among my colleagues and students are Jews, Israeli Arabs and Palestinians too.

    2. Among my friends are Jews, Israeli Arabs and Palestinians.

    3. I served for two decades both as an enlisted soldier and in reserves. During this period I was stationed in all parts of Judea, Samaria, Gaza, The Golan Heights as well as within the Green Line.

    4. I am employed by the German Frederal government as an expert on the Arab-Israeli conflict, though I believe that there are many much more knowledgable than myself.

    What exactly is your expertise on the subject?

    When I called you pig ignorant it was because in the 45 words you wrote, you made at least three factual errors that were unconnected to being a Zionist, or not being. The most absurd was your inability to understand the difference between “Palestinians” and Israeli Arabs, a distinction you have yet to grasp.

    When I said, “Thinking is more interesting than knowing, but less interesting than looking.” I meant that it’s all well and good to have opinions, but if they are based neither on knowledge or experience than they just become a pack of childish worn out cliches, “Time is on our side.” etc, which could pretty much be said by anyone, at any time, about anything.

    All the best,

  40. Daniel

    do you think it might send Franne’s powers of thinking finally into the abyss, if we should point out to her that all through history “Time” has been the most fickle ally of them all? Reliable only in one aspect i.e. that it loves to spring surprises on all those who felt sure of its support.

    I can without investing much energy think up all kinds of scenarios where “Time” will show herself to be the friend of Israel, showing her to lead the path to a better future.

  41. Daniel Marks

    Silke,

    I have discovered Franne’s source of inspiration for her critique of Modern Zionism:

    “Time Is On Our Side”

    Girl, there’s more to love than meets the eye,
    girl, there’s more to what I feel inside.
    And if I told you, would you be my girl, for you I’d travel round the world.
    Time is on our side, girl, you’re my one true love, girl,
    we’ve come too far to ever be just friends.
    Time is on our side, girl, let’s show the whole world,
    love is the answer and time is our closest friend.

    If I sent you flowers, would you walk away,
    or would it be enough to make you stay?
    Even though we’re young, girl, one thing’s for sure,
    in time our love will endure.
    Time is …

    Babe, what would you say, time brings us closer every day.
    Time is …
    Time is …

  42. Daniel
    what a lovely text (I don’t care much for the stones but couldn’t find a better one)

  43. Daniel Marks

    First I sincerely apologize if Franne feels “physically abused”, but, as Silke points out – it was not I.

    I have an alibi, having been in the “satanic State of Israel” throughout the time in question. Frankly, I’m not sure I’d want to physically abuse Franne, even if I could. I’m sure Franne is quite delightful, but I’m happily married and long passed that time of life.

    I wish Franne well and remind her once more that the truth should never hurt.

    • Daniel
      do you remember how we disagreed on the longing to be abused, popularly called masochism, on another thread? where you convinced me that it was part of the syndrome of the kid nobody wants to play with.

      do you think Franne is afflicted by the same syndrome that Gert displayed?

      If yes just wishing her well, won’t help much, something more is needed, if we want to alleviate the suffering of what is after all is said and done a fellow human being.
      I never know though what to do in these cases give them what they yearn for or put them on cold turkey. What do you suggest?

  44. Daniel
    pls check your e-mail inbox NOW
    thanks!

  45. Michael Goldman

    So on the one we have the Hitler chicken feet theory and on the other the pigs who wish to hide their cud chewing while showing off their split hooves.
    Classy stuff!

  46. Michael Goldman

    Daniel
    Please check your e-mail out box NOW

  47. Michael Goldman

    I CAN’T TAKE IT ANY MORE !!!!
    TELL ME ALL YOUR SECRETS !!!!!

  48. Michael
    humiliate Daniel at chess, reduce him to rubble (if you can that is) maybe that’ll make him tell

  49. Michael Goldman

    For your information there is only one mall in Ma’aleh Adumim

  50. Michael
    thanks for confirming what I’ve always known that males are terrible gossips
    … and I feel de-romanticized in the extreme …

  51. Michael Goldman

    Silke
    Your secret is a little disappointing.
    And about feeling de-romanticized I feel it only fair to warn you that Dan only romanticizes with his stunning wife Roxi and his beautiful blow up doll Nancy.

  52. Michael
    pretty narrow idea of romantics you have, confirming that males are indeed thinking of one thing only, as women have always insisted on through the ages, while I keep clinging to the hope (being aware of Goethe’s warning though) that she may have been wrong.

    But now that you have shown yourself to be a one thought only guy I will resist forever to tell you what has de-romanticized me except that it had very very definitely nothing to do with any imaginable variation of gender.

  53. Michael Goldman

    Silke
    Yet again you do me an injustice, claiming that I think of only one thing.
    Nothing could be further from the truth.
    I must however point out that your resistance is admirable.

  54. Michael Goldman

    Wonderful Stuff

  55. yeah he sure knew all that can possibly be known about the human heart (and her voice overcomes even the abysmal YouTube-sound quality)

    and now listen to the eminently learned and well-educated sounding strict guy in this
    – reminds me of the scarlet letter and similar stuff (in real life I’ve come across a Catholic priest with such an unyielding mind-set)

    Islam and music
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/podcasts/series/belief

  56. Franne Frank

    Time for what? Your username shows what a Jew hater you are. Shame on you.

  57. Daniel Marks

    Returning briefly to “pegging”, who exactly is supposed to be enjoying the act, the lady or the gentleman? This writer likes to consider himself to be relatively open minded, but I just can’t see where the fun bit is.

    It basically implies role reversal, and would be the equivalent of me joining a blog on a subject about which I’m quite ignorant, spouting some daft idea, and then getting metaphorically screwed by everyone there.

    Hang on, this sounds familiar… Franne and Gert!

    Suddenly I begin to understand to what physical abuse poor Franne was refering. Could old Gert have at last found gainful employment?

    Gert, Franne – please let us know.

    Silke,

    Do not pin your hopes on Michael. I never loose to Goldman in chess.

    He invariably plays a premature early c5 in the Winawer Variation of the French Defence, looses a pawn, then the game. Without fail he forgets his mistake by the next time we play.

    As White he has found no viable method of dealing with the Alekhine Defence.

    Marks – Goldman (Always)

    1. e4 e6
    2. d4 d5
    3. Nc3 Bb4
    4. N(g)e2 (e5 is more usual)
    5….. c5?! Played with some success many years ago by Frank Marshall but generally considered inferior. 5…dxe4 equalises
    6. dxc5! Bxc5? (Perhaps 6…d4!? with some complications)
    7. exd5! etc

  58. Daniel Marks

    Apologies for “loose” instead of “lose”. It was 6:00 am and early in the morning, before prayers, I’m a bit of a looser.

  59. Daniel

    Have you seen, Jonathan links to a piece over at the other thread which is a must read. I wonder why they didn’t collect money for the victims of the last “work”-accident in Gaza.
    http://elderofziyon.blogspot.com/2010/08/work-accident.html

    As to lose and loose: please don’t do that to me, especially not in this phase of my life where I have learned to love myself despite the fact that I’ll never be able to remember, when it is o and when it is oo.

    As to pegging I remember dimly that at the height of our efforts to liberate us Dolle-Minna-style there were two books by Gore Vidal that were considered must-reads for the self-liberating crowds. http://www.amazon.de/gp/search/ref=sr_nr_i_2?rh=k%3Amyra+breckinridge%2Ci%3Aenglish-books&keywords=myra+breckinridge&ie=UTF8&qid=1280827813

    Even then I didn’t manage to read on when all that girding with this or that started. I found it so utterly boring compared to the thrills a mere glance could provide under the right circumstances between the right people, that I gave up on emancipation from then on and never again proposed sharing a bill. Also it gave me my first inkling that Julian may have been just a lucky stroke of an otherwise overrated author.

    But what is this, you really want Franne and Gert to tell us about their preferred variations? Do you really think they are capable with coming up anything creative other than the same ol’?

    As to chess I am sorry I can’t help you there I am averse to everything involving competition. I try to be open-minded about it though and not judge guys and/or gals indulging in it prematurely.

    Michael of course has scored greatly with me when he decreed Mozart to be wonderful without apparently having even listened for one second to my so carefully selected version. And now you describe his chess-playing as premature also. Maybe he is a closet Wagnerian?

  60. What – they banned someone as harmless and benign as yourself – what a bunch of insecure weasels- afraid that their arguements can’t stand up to any modicum of scrutiny. Simply preaching tot he converted.

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