Guest post
With Israel, as ever, disproportionately in the news one activist goes to their first anti-Israel event and describes the experience:
“I attended the talk at Amnesty on Thursday evening for the book launch of Against the Wall: The art of resistance in Palestine. The book is a collection of photos of the artwork on Israel’s security fence.
Of many controversial points the book’s author, William Parry, showed a photo of a queue of Palestinians at a checkpoint near Bethlehem.
‘People are dying at checkpoints’, he then claimed.
The impression was of Palestinians dropping like flies at checkpoints from the trauma of waiting in line.
We then listened to two other speakers, one an artist and another, Jamal Juma speaking live on web cam from the West Bank. Juma is from “Stop the Wall” Campaign.
The talks were totally devoid of any smidgen of context as to what is really going on and why the security fence was built in the first place.
At the Q&A I had no intention of speaking out at all. I was there only to observe.
But then I thought back to my visit to Poland and how I had made a vow on the last day spent in Auschwitz never to walk in fear or shame around those who wish for our demise.
I also thought of all the wonderful Israeli friends and family I have here who have done nothing to deserve the blind hatred in this room. Am I going to sit here in silence, I asked myself?
When I was finally handed the microphone I repeated back to the author his statement about people dying at checkpoints and I asked if he had the statistics to back up his statement?
The panel looked blankly at each other and mumbled about statistics on some UN page.
I then asked whether we are talking one a day, one a week, one a month.
They looked baffled and asked Jamal on the live web cam.
Jamal didn’t seem to know either.
I then asked about the cause of deaths.
Up until this point they thought I was asking out of concern for this imaginary pile of corpses at checkpoints.
Suddenly the artist pointed his finger at me and asked whether I was daring to suggest it’s not terrible what’s going on there: ‘I think we all agree in this room it’s terrible.’
There was a rapture of applause from the audience who all looked at me in disgust whilst furiously shaking their heads in disbelief.
I shouted: ‘Yes, it’s terrible but he (William Parry) said they’re dying, so I’m asking about the deaths.’
How stupid of me to demand evidence. Facts? Evidence? How boring.”
RichardMillett's Blog 
As the saying goes “Never Let The Facts Get In The Way Of A Good Story”
Or, as that song (you know the one, the one that went viral on youtube ) goes: “For facts there’s no demand …”
I was the guest who blogged that. Thanks Richard.
Additionally the girl sat next to me had made the mistake of telling me that she believes when the sirens go off in Sderot, it’s for propaganda reasons and of her credentials that permit her to make such a twisted statement (“I have Jewish family in Israel you know”). This was of course before she asked me who I am and I told her unhesitantly that I am Israeli. I wonder if she’ll remember at her next Israel bashing meeting she will remember not to be so presumptuous and assume we’re all there to demonise the holy land?
This is just one example of how the pro-Palestinian movement feeds off its own ignorance. Lies built upon lies built upon lies. That’s why they will never actually help the people stuck in camps in Lebanon, Jordan, Gaza, etc, they will only succeed in hurting Israel and radicalising Israel’s enemies even further.
And tragically Israel is the only country in the region with any political will to make things better for them.
The moral certainty of received wisdom.
Were you the bloke with family in Sheikh Jarrah who marched off in a huff before the end of the talk?
It’s a shame you didn’t stick around and talk to people afterwards, maybe next time?
“Palestinian civilians, particularly in the West Bank, have also died as a
result of being unable to access medical treatment because of delays or
obstruction at checkpoints. Since the beginning of the intifada, for
example, 68 pregnant women have been unable to access hospitals and forced
subsequently to give birth at checkpoints, resulting in the deaths of four
women and 34 miscarriages. The greatest number of deaths, resulting from
denial of access to medical facilities occurred in 2001 and 2002 when 74%
of the 46 deaths for this reason occurred. The number has dropped since
then to between 0-4 deaths per year.”
‘Israeli-Palestinian Fatalities Since 2000 – Key Trends’, UN OCHA, August
2007
“More Palestinians have died because of Israeli checkpoints than have
Sderot residents because of Kassams…Some of my readers say that these
deaths were not intentional. But they were. Because these people were
intentionally prevented from getting medical care.”
http://themagneszionist.blogspot.com/2008/02/checkpoints-kill.html
I was at this event also (sitting quite near you) – This is not at all how events occured – not only is there selectivity in this post but blatant lies.
The person did ask a question and it was a reasonable question to ask. Far from the panel looking baffled 2 of them responded that it would be best to look at the UN OCHA website for their latest weekly updates – that was said to be the best source of the information. Mr Parry also mentioned this UN body in his talk as a credible reference. UN OCHA was said to the person several times as the best source….
I note that there were 2 camera crews in the room also recording the whole event…so Guest poster – you need to try harder if you are looking to make your “name” in the murky world of the neo con blogosphere…try to please stay accurate and reasonable (in the manner you asked your question on the night)
itay, surely such an important statistic should be readily available and well known to them, shouldn’t it?
Is everyone who disagrees with you a neocon?
hmmm. What happened to my comment?
Just for the sake of clarity….
Where you state:
“The panel looked blankly at each other and mumbled about statistics on some UN page.”
Did they not in face refer you to the website for the Website of the UN office for Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs
http://ochaonline2.un.org/Default.aspx?alias=ochaonline2.un.org/oPt
and also the Red Crescent website as it lists all ambulance delays at checkpoints.
http://www.palestinercs.org/
http://ochaonline2.un.org/Default.aspx?alias=ochaonline2.un.org/oPt
(apologies if this appears twice)
Hi Jon,
Can I just compliment you on your impeccable manners? Are you an English gentleman? You certainly come across that way. I’m sure you have no need to apologise to anyone for posting your comment twice! Despite what they say Richard is a very nice guy and very accommodating when it comes to his blog.
I glanced at another blog of someone who linked it in this comments section and I noted in his comments section he only has comments complimenting his writing and nothing challenging his (somewhat strange) view point. Do you think Jon that’s because he doesn’t allow anyone to challenge his view point on there or because not enough people go onto his blog? Who knows? Indeed, who cares?
You mentioned “for the sake of clarity”. Did you notice with the artist guy on the panel there (Peter Kennard?) that severe lack of clarity when he spoke? Do you think he was stoned or drunk or both? Did you manage to follow anything he was saying? I think however that artist types can get away with it easier with slurring their words when they speak so perhaps the audience made more allowances for him. I have no idea what he said.
So to ease your mind and as you say for the sake of clarity I will take your word for it that those are the two organisations that the panel eventually came up with (I did hear something UN but Jon there was some serious mumbling going on there! Come on!). To add to your argument and to help you out a bit, the girl who sat next to me kindly gave me her email address to email her so she can send me links to these sites.
But Jon. This is not the point. Don’t you get it?
A statement of “People are dying at checkpoints” made by William Parry can and indeed I believe does as I say:
“create the impression was of Palestinians dropping like flies at checkpoints from the trauma of waiting in line”.
I generously decided to try and help create some context in case some poor susceptible people in the audience understood that the checkpoint is in the habit of jumping up and murdering people in cold blood, Monday to Friday 0600-17000, Saturday rest day and Sunday 2100-0600 (GMT)
So I asked my question because I was sure that every decent person in the audience wanted to understand the extent of the problem and to gain context and perspective.
To be fair Jon. I was actually (half?) expecting an immediate response to give some context and perspective to such an inflammatory comment. Most defiantly from Jamal Juma you would think, as I said to Itay that he could give the audience an idea seeing as this is what his organisation does. Rough numbers should most definitely be readily available. (I hasten to add only if you are a credible organisation)
Jon I know effectively you do not owe me anything but I would like to put a request to you and appeal to your good nature to help me out with something.
If you have read any of the stuff of here you will see I tried to put questions to Itay but he/she/it stormed off in a cyber huff. I think I got too close to the bone and he panicked and retreated.
Now Jon. Because I see that you are clearly a nice man and quite polite, I would guess that you clapped at the comment to create a giant Warsaw ghetto in Israel only out of politeness as you did not want to offend the vile man who made that racist comment. Fair enough. Even vile men can get offended. And probably if you’re surrounded in a sea of an audience clapping in ecstasy at the thought of turning Israel into another Warsaw ghetto you would not want to stand out too much lest you’re spotted as not being supportive and offend yet more people.
If however Jon, I am wrong with the above paragraph and you were also in ecstasy at the mere thought of the good old days and creating another Warsaw ghetto in Israel then I put it to you to help me out and answer the questions I have put Itay as you are indeed qualified to answer them and you may be able to teach us all something.
To help you out I will repost my questions to Itay to you.
Once again with the camps, kindly confirm which one you fall into.
Looking forward to hear back in due course.
Yours truly,
Queen Esther’s loyalist Subject.
Jon just replace the name Itay with Jon and it should be simple. And remember, this is not personal unless….well unless it’s personal! Thank you kindly sir.
Itay,
I just noted your accusations. Before we discuss mortality and I can see we at least have a common language, tell me you didn’t join in the rapturous applause advocating turning Israel into another Warsaw ghetto and banning all Israelis travelling anywhere in the world? Tell me even though the person to your left and to your right was thunderously clapping, as was the whole room, you had the good sense to realise this is a racist, unjustified and sickening policy?
Tell me Itay. Would this policy you clapped for, also be for Israeli Arabs (Muslims) or would it be reserved just for Israelis of Jewish origin?
So when you clapped Itay, (and hopefully you will tell me I’m wrong) was the image in your mind a bit like that at Entebbe when passports were selected and only the Jews were kept hostage by the animals who held them? Or would you advocate equal opportunities for all mankind and you would have kept the Jews and non Jews hostage? We’re all for equal opportunities today Itay.
Would you grant Israeli Arabs a “get out of jail” card? On the other hand, perhaps they should be punished as well for being shrewd enough choose Israeli citizenship over the other dire options? What would you choose Itay?
In that vein, do you think Itay, if you were a bit of a redneck in the USA you might have joined in with Borat singing to “throw the Jew down the well?”
Would you have joined in the singing Itay with a big cowboy hat on your head whilst holding up your drink or would you have walked out in disgust?
Do you think Itay, those rednecks on Borat were a bunch of scum anti-Semites or do you think they genuinely got caught up in the moment because their head is so far up the arse they don’t actually know what a Jew is?
Which camp do they fall into?
Which camp would you fall into?
You mustn’t be camp and Palestinian as they have what you may call a zero tolerance policy towards some camp guys there who are most certainly not “happy campers” if you get my drift Itay. Poor buggers
Is it good or bad to torture homosexuals as do Hamas and the PA as a policy Itay?
Who decides what is good anyway?
Shall we leave it up to international law Itay to decide what is good and bad? Does that flotilla your boat?
Do you do philosophy Itay or are you more in your comfort zone bleating about human resources (HR as you put it) and street art?
Can I not put links in comments? This is my original post with the links removed.
“Just for the sake of clarity….
Where you state:
“The panel looked blankly at each other and mumbled about statistics on some UN page.”
Did they not in face refer you to the website for the Website of the UN office for Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs
and also the Red Crescent website as it lists all ambulance delays at checkpoints.”
jon, you should be able to put links in, so please do if you can.
it seems the questioner was completely in the right to ask and the UN reference is in the post. Amazing that the panel did not have the stats. to hand really.
Well the questioner suggests the panel were “baffled” – that was not the impression I got – what I saw were people referring the person who asked the question to a timely source.
Should the panellists have known the exact number? Maybe – statistics are thrown around on all sides – the presenters seemed to be talking about the illegality of the structure where it is in occupied land and all the different violations it causes – and the non violent resistence to it…
So – the original poster should build her case on a lot more solid arguments and observations – not on untruths…..I wonder if she has checked out that UN OCHA site yet?
Richard – you need a better quality of Guest Posters
Itay, such important facts and they don’t know them? Why should someone be sent off to search for such important facts. I think the poster is beyond any criticism on this important point.
Richard – this line from your Guest should let you know the level of humanity she is operating at: “Up until this point they thought I was asking out of concern for this imaginary pile of corpses at checkpoints.”
That is why she should check her facts (not to mention her sense of morality)
hardly “beyond any criticism…..”
Hi Itay,
Am I to be impressed that you concede it was a reasonable question to ask? Is being reasonable the exception rather than the rule with you Itay?
Did you also clap till your hands hurt when the guy at the back said that everyone with an Israeli passport should be banned from travelling anywhere in the world?
I sure as hell looked around me at this deplorable racist statement and saw the whole audience clapping so hard I thought that Elvis had walked in the room and I’d missed him (Did he walk in Itay?)
I wonder if the Israeli guy who made this statement has heroically got himself a foreign passport as well to make sure that he is safe first before advocating to we make Israel into another Warsaw ghetto. Do you think so Itay?
Let’s put him down to being afflicted with “I’m alright Jack” syndrome. They come in all shades Itay. I’m sad to say we have them as well.
Parry makes a statement of “people are dying at checkpoints” and can’t even tell me rough numbers? Neither could anyone else on the panel?
You make a presentation, make a serious allegation and can’t even back this up with evidence?
Blimey Itay, if they couldn’t, you would think that Jamal on the webcam (did you see the dodgy filming and the close ups of his forehead!?) might know something about it seeing as his organisation is all about the security fence? That’s what his organisation does. Oppose the security fence.
You ask me the annual turnover of my company and I confess that I am shit with figures but I sure as hell can tell you our rough numbers for every year since opening (you’ll be pleased to hear Itay we have ridden the wave of the recession very well thank you and are doing great). My Financial Director though would bore you senseless with exact numbers and you and I Itay would fall asleep with boredom. It is with the help of matchsticks on my eyelids that I am able to look like I’m awake when he’s briefing me.
Rough numbers Itay. Not exact ones. I even helped them out by asking if we’re talking one a day, one a week, one a month etc.
Not much to ask is it?
Although admittedly I’m not used to these Israel bashing sessions devoid of any context in this setting so maybe it’s quite normal to make slurs and vague statements without the need for statistics? I do apologise profusely if its yawnsome to ask for facts. Sorry to have bored you my dear.
Eich yesh leha shem yisraeli?
See you soon chuck.
😉
Itay, i would suggest that those who make claims about deaths and cannot give a number, or even name any of those who died, are devoid of humanity.
Mostly Harmless.
No I’m not him.
But next time, if I decide to hang around seeing as your mostly harmless and not completely, I will look out for a one armed man.
So checkyourpoints – did you bother to look at the UN OCHA site for yourself? I presume you are not disputing the fact that many Palestinians have died at checkpoints – your point is that nobody on the panel could give an exact number..I think its a pretty thin point to pick up on given the fact that many Palestinians have died at the checkpoints (one is too many…)…that is the real issue….and seemed to be the premise of the talks – not a detailed run through of all the stats and legalities –
from my point as somebody interested in street art I was there to see the art and hear from a legendary artist – it was good to have the legal context bumf (but too many stats would have been a turn off) – I agree that having the actual numbers ready to go would have been an asset but as one of the panellists said – isn’t one death too many? I think he realised right away your motives…anyway you have your view and I am not looking to change it really just wanted to point out my observation as a person there and highlight your spin on how the panel reacted – they were far from baffled but as i said, that is not the point, the illegality of the wall for the majority of its route is the issue – as one of the panellists said – Israel has a right to build a wall but it should be in Israel not in occupied land…..that was the key message i came away with – hardly anti israel
Kindly cite one Palestinian that has died at a checkpoint and the cause of death and the date.
UNOCHA is quite a detailed site. Can anyone locate the relevant statistics?
http://ochaonline2.un.org/Default.aspx?tabid=8711
Bill – firstly – are you doubting that any Palestinians have died at checkpoints?
Are you not able to cite one death?
I’ve spent the best part of an hour scouring the UNOCHA website, and I haven’t been able to find any reference to these statistics.
Itay, the onus is on those who quote so-called ‘facts’ to back them up with data, not to challenge the accused to find the data to prove their case.
In Gaza, Iran and Saudi Arabia you might be considered guilty until proven innocent. As you well know, in Israel and the UK the system is that you provide the evidence before hurling accusations around and demanding that those you are accusing prove otherwise.
I just saw this post – see my last post to Bill – ps your a crap researcher – sorry but that is P*** poor..
Bill – you got us – the game is up – no Palestinian has ever died at a checkpoint – happy now?
Got you there – after erm 5 seconds of “research” –
More Palestinians die after being denied access through Israeli checkpoints, UN reports
http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=24054&Cr=gaza&Cr1=
I take it there have been no deaths since 28 September 2007. Do you know how many have died since then as a result of Hamas rockets?
I believe you.
Bill – no that is not the case – it was 5 seconds of “research” as I said so i pulled the first link with all the right words in the title so atleast you would look at that and be convinced….my advice is to do proper research before making assertions – as i said, one death is too many – the fact that rockets from Hamas (from Gaza FFS) is a reality does not excuse or justify the deaths at the checkpoints……believe me there is probably a Palestinian on a blog somewhere telling a pro Hamas blooger about deaths in southern israel and the pro hamas blogger excusing it and justifying it by deaths in Gaza by the IDF….and the blinded by rage cycle of violence rolls on…..anyway Billy Boy I have a life to live – I made my point and backed it up – that is enough for now..shukran
Meanwhile, as tragic as one death is, 146 Palestinians were murdered by Palestinians in 2006 alone according to the same report. When will Amnesty be holding a talk on this?
http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/info/MDE21/003/2008/en
5 seconds of “research” – i see they had a major report and campaign on the Fatah – Hamas fighting and impact on ordinary Palestinians….Richard – do some research…….
wow, a whole one and a half pages devoted to the issue. You did well to find it, Itay.
As I said – there is a report – http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/asset/MDE21/020/2007/en/6609e419-d363-11dd-a329-2f46302a8cc6/mde210202007en.html
also see their latest annual report
(that was another 5 seconds of “research” – I presume your not an investigative journalist or researcher Richard………..)
Itay your link looks like it is 3 years old. Hundreds of Palestinians have been murdered by Hamas since then. And yet Amnesty seems to be holding talks on checkpoint deaths that are far less.
see their latest annual report for more on HR violations by hamas (and the PA)
You would need to ask amnesty their rationale but i suspect its because the israeli authorities commit a larger range of hr violations than the PA and Hamas combined that they work more on israeli violations…the occupation being the root of most of these problems….now care to mention how many palestinians have been murdered by the israelis in the past 3 years..?
Richard – you are clearly a rapturists best friend….
Oh, well we could play that game in every war. There are always more killed on one side. It proves nothing. But intra-Palestinian violence is something else. How can Hamas slaughter their own people? It seems to hardly concern you.
hmm well you were the one that raised this line of argument…..it seems i out thought you with some very simplistic research…oh dear..
so where is this set of postings going Richard?
But you have proved nothing.
Richard – when you show some sincere feelings towards Palestinians i may take what you say seriously…the issue of this post is the Wall and its illegal routing – you can divert all you want but that is the issue of this post and the subject matter of the (quite brilliant) amnesty event i went to……get serious man
I do feel for the Palestinian people. But everything Israel does is “illegal”, even exist. So you get serious too. The wall isn’t “illegal”.
But everything Israel does is “illegal”, even exist??? This does not make any sense – its petulant
If israel wants a wall it can have a wall – but it should be in israel….then it would be legal
what i mean is that everything Israel does is deemed “illegal” from the occupation to the wall to any form of self defence to its very existence. The wall is not illegal as the occupation is not illegal. Building a wall inside Israel would be futile. Think about it.
“everything” – well maybe by extremists who do not believe Israel should exist but neither you nor I think that way so why raise it? Its irrelevant and nobody takes those people seriously…and nobody takes seriously those who invoke the next holocaust round the corner argument…..
the route of the wall in occupied territory is illegal under international humanitarian law as are the impacts it has on palestinians
building a wall along the green line would be legal but i can only presume a land grab is underway and that is why its not along the green line…
Richard – its late – is there really any point to this “conversation”? I believe in international law as the basis for the discussion..you? well i don’t know – something from the old book i guess?
Well, never say never, Itay. Rwanda, Sudan, Congo. But the reason we post is because we ask with all that is happening around the world why is Israel virtually the only nation subject to boycotts by unions, academic institutions and the like? It is a serious concern. People trying to shut down Israeli businesses in the UK. Amnesty producing a recent spurious 120 page report on Israel “stealing water”. Unfounded accusations of apartheid and racism. I could go on.
That is the point of the conversation.
I believe you could add Burma to that list and don’t forget China gets a lot of boycotting due to Tibet etc…and don’t forget israels own boycott of Palestinian goods…state sanctioned and all that..
There is a fine balance to be had in watching out and being aware of threats and wittingly or unwittingly doing things which encourage threats and violence against Israelis and jews – seemingly to justify a standpoint that the next holocaust is round the corner…..its the reason even the US are saying Israeli policies and practices are counter productive – because they are building up an anger that if unleashed will be harmful..but hey atleast you can justify the position of existential threat…..its a self fulfilling prophecy…the watch word is “restraint” the curent israeli government should look it up and stop behaving like a mad dog endangering Israelis (including my friends in Israel)…the israeli government are the biggest threat to israelis Richard..if only they could live within their borders and stop stealing other peoples land and resources – its really very simple yet israeli government after israeli government have added layers of complications on top of it….just stop the lies and the stealing and be a mature country and not a rogue state…then Israel would get the respect it may or may not crave……..
And yet NATO troops are in Afghanistan, Iraq and Pakistan, but Israel has to stay put.
And Israel doesn’t steal land or resources. More hot air.
You are just another typical Israel basher, and yet I thought you weren’t until now.
ah with the insults…you have been learning well from your master The Hoff ….stick to the issues and we can talk…but alas you lose that opportunity by resorting to insults when your argument has run its course..sad..and somewhat pathetic
Itay,
I just noted your accusations. Before we discuss mortality and I can see we at least have a common language, tell me you didn’t join in the rapturous applause advocating turning Israel into another Warsaw ghetto and banning all Israelis travelling anywhere in the world? Tell me even though the person to your left and to your right was thunderously clapping, as was the whole room, you had the good sense to realise this is a racist, unjustified and sickening policy?
Tell me Itay. Would this policy you clapped for, also be for Israeli Arabs (Muslims) or would it be reserved just for Israelis of Jewish origin?
So when you clapped Itay, (and hopefully you will tell me I’m wrong) was the image in your mind a bit like that at Entebbe when passports were selected and only the Jews were kept hostage by the animals who held them? Or would you advocate equal opportunities for all mankind and you would have kept the Jews and non Jews hostage? We’re all for equal opportunities today Itay.
Would you grant Israeli Arabs a “get out of jail” card? On the other hand, perhaps they should be punished as well for being shrewd enough choose Israeli citizenship over the other dire options? What would you choose Itay?
In that vein, do you think Itay, if you were a bit of a redneck in the USA you might have joined in with Borat singing to “throw the Jew down the well?”
Would you have joined in the singing Itay with a big cowboy hat on your head whilst holding up your drink or would you have walked out in disgust?
Do you think Itay, those rednecks on Borat were a bunch of scum anti-Semites or do you think they genuinely got caught up in the moment because their head is so far up the arse they don’t actually know what a Jew is?
Which camp do they fall into?
Which camp would you fall into?
You mustn’t be camp and Palestinian as they have what you may call a zero tolerance policy towards some camp guys there who are most certainly not “happy campers” if you get my drift Itay. (Poor buggers)
Is it good or bad to torture homosexuals as do Hamas and the PA as a policy Itay?
Who decides is good anyway?
Shall we leave it up to international law Itay to decide what is good and bad? Does that flotilla your boat? 😉
Do you do philosophy Itay or are you more in your comfort zone bleating about human resources (HR as you put it) and street art?
Sweet dreams
xx
little girl – your not worth saving – your racism is obvious – so join your EDL scum friends back in the gutter where you belong you dirty fascist
Itay, where did you go to charm school?
I think we all know who the fascist is, Itay.
Itay, do philosophical discussions always have this adverse affect on you or is it because it’s past your bedtime?
I note with interest you have taken what I put to you personally. Bloody hell. I’m sorry if it hurt when I hit that nerve. I didn’t mean to hit it quite so hard and quite so accurately. Kiss it better from me. My friends have warned me to ease up with these things and I have a knack for making some feel quite uneasy by scratching at that wafer thin surface to sometimes reveal a monster munch lurking underneath.
Some last longer than others with keeping up the facade. I guess it depends on how sophisticated they are and maybe even how intelligent.
Not you though Itay. I’m sure you’re just having a bad day.
Itay do you have stats on exactly how racist I am and a pie chart on how fascist I am? Would you like to put together a powerpoint presentation on this and give a talk on it? Maybe I shouldn’t flatter myself but do you think that Amnesty may hold the talk?
I know I shouldn’t and something tells me you didn’t mean it as a compliment but I love that you called me a little girl!
Those Ahava products are damn good!! Come on girls, lets get some more.
Itay,
When I combine the facts that, on the one hand you have an Israeli name, and on the other hand you spell like an Israeli, “your not worth saving” I’m going to have to stick my neck out and guess that, in the words of W. Somerset Maugham, you were born “under a bluer sky than is generally seen in England”.
Although we don’t know each other, you are my brother and I love you and care about you. To my mind every Jew is “worth saving” – those who I agree with and those who I don’t.
I’m sure you know the story of Rabbi Yisroel Salanter who once brought his shoes to a shoemaker to have them fixed. The sun was going down and the shoemaker only had a tiny candle left. Rabbi Yisroel offered to come back the next day. It was getting dark and if the candle would finish, there would be no light. The shoemaker hadn’t finished repairing the previous customer’s shoes. The shoemaker answered the rabbi that he wouldn’t have to return the next day. “As long as the candle burns, I can repair.”
Itay, we don’t give up on our family because we think they’re making mistakes. They are the ones who need our help. Everyone is worth saving. If life has worth, then it is worth saving.
Likewise, I’m certain that you love Israel, and like all of us, you want what is best for her. I am equally sure that the last thing that you’d want would be for terrorists to take advantage of a lack of checkpoints or their not being run efficiently, in order to cause harm to Israeli citizens. As far as I understand you don’t negate Israel’s right to build a defensive wall, but you feel that all of this wall should have been constructed within the “Green Line”, while, in fact, parts of it are outside of it.
These are all legitimate viewpoints and there are many Arab Israeli members of Knesset and even some Jewish ones who agree with you. Regarding the “wall”, I’m sure you know its legality has been challenged in our high court and as a result changes were made.
Regarding checkpoints, Itay, if you’ve served in the IDF you no doubt know that nobody puts them up for fun, and they’re taken down as soon as possible, often too soon. Yesterday Yehoshua Sopher was killed in the South, probably as a result of a checkpoint being taken down too early.
However, you may feel that Israel should have no wall and no checkpoints, but we should just trust G-d and hope that the terrorists will learn to love us. I say that even that is a legitimate viewpoint from someone who says, “I live in Israel and my family and I are prepared to take such risks.” That is one of the reasons that we have elections – so we can decide together which risks we wish to take.
Since at the moment you choose not to live in Israel and it is my family, not yours, that will, in my opinion, be endangered by an absence of barriers between itself and fanatical Islamic terrorists wishing to kill us, I respectfully suggest that you wait until you return before making such well-intentioned suggestions.
Come home, and tell us what you think. Persuade people, run for Knesset if you like. Maybe you’ll make such good points that I’ll end off voting for you.
Itay, every Jew is worth saving. “As long as the candle burns, you can repair.”
Hey, you can even repair yourself!
“from my point as somebody interested in street art I was there to see the art and hear from a legendary artist” – yes, i am sure you were just there for that.
Your references to EDL and Hoff mark you out as nothing more than an Israel basher and hot air in accusing Israel of illegality without any proof and quoting something as spurious as international humanitarian law (whatever that is).
As for this: “the israeli government are the biggest threat to israelis”. You’re a parody. (I presume you meant “governments”.)
Daniel, with all the manic bleatings of Itay you may have missed an interesting post from someone on here calling himself “Rerceived Wisdom”. (at the top) He posted an exert from his blog on this topic. We may disagree on (most) things but he most definitely does do philosophy (he says he teaches it) and I guess he would not fly into a panic at a philosophical and political debate.
http://themagneszionist.blogspot.com/2008/02/checkpoints-kill.html
I glanced at his blog and he is advocating on there something called “Stateless Zionism”. Admittedly I’d never heard of it before so Mr Orthodox-Jew-Living-Between-USA-Israel-Professor-Of-Philosophy thank you for teaching me something that I will look into. It’s not for me but I’ll check it out. I assume it’s a fringe movement? Is it also a dormant movement?
Received Wisdom do you have dual citizenship? And if you didn’t, and you only had an Israeli passport how hard would you clap to advocate the creation of another Warsaw ghetto in Israel?
Would you
a) Clap so not to stand out too much but make a mental note to marry a girl with a foreign passport ASAP?
b) Clap because you’re in a coma and don’t know what you’re doing whilst bleating like a sheep with the rest of the audience?
c) Run out of there like a bat out of hell screaming hysterically?
If you can help Itay out who has got himself in a muddle and distressed at the questions I put to him, I think I can speak on his/her/it’s behalf in saying he/she/it would be most grateful for your assistance.
Recieved Wisdom this is the first and last time I plug your blog for you, you can do it yourself next time 😉
I’ve never heard of the philosophy of stateless Zionism, which on the face of it seems to be a contradiction in terms, and imagine that your characterization of it as a fringe movement is incredibly generous.
Perhaps either Received Wisdom or Jeremiah Haber or Jerry Haber, the three known members of the movement, would care to elaborate.
Me and my genorsity. Fair enough not fringe. How about hair folicle movement? (pst Daniel, I’m not sure the 3 members you listed there are not the same person or at least a person and a half, FYI only)
Itay, you and your fascist friends are either fucking liars or naive dupes. View the clip and then comment.
Richard, have only just caught up with your blog after a few days off. Seems like you chaps need a little help in dealing with this so-called “Itay”.
Nevertheless, may I ask you Zionist brethren if you saw the Bloody Sunday coverage today on television from Londonderry (not Derry, as everyone seems to insist on calling it – blasphemy in my opinion). The speakers were wearing Palestinian flag lapel pins, and I spotted at least two Palestinian flags being waved in the crowd. Put simply, I nearly vomited.
Being a Zionist of Ulster-Scots extraction, I can tell you that these republicans do not represent Northern Ireland. For you will be glad to know that the Orange Order is fully behind Israel and her necessary adventures.
On the Northern Ireland note, as someone affiliated to the Zionist Federation, Richard, I thought you might be interested to hear that the EDL are in high level negotiations to recruit the Mad Dog, Jonny Adair, for a leadership position.
My mouth watered at the prospect of the Mad Dog and Jonathan joining forces in defence of Israel. This relationship between British Zionism and the English resistance is only destined to blossom. I cannot wait for it to grow, and feel honoured to be a part of it. I’ve spoken to a couple of friends in the Birmingham division and have directed them to this blog, so you might have a slightly larger readership shortly. It’s the least I could do for the joy your articles have given me.
shame you are so far down and no one will read such words of wisdom, Tom.
are you a nazi sympathiser Richard?
no, are you?
OK – maybe just a fascist sympathiser then, yes?
Itay, we all know that you are the fascist as are all of your palisymp buddies. You masquerade as a progressive but we see you are all about imposing your repressive agenda on the world. You will lie, steal and murder and justify your crimes by claiming it is “for the benefit of the people.”
Bill – I’m not the one who is happy to work with the EDL nazis…unlike the ZF…turn the Z on its side and we see the truth…….
Itay, whoever you are you’re a real idiot.
Richard – well you would say that wouldn’t you. Your unlikely to praise me with flowers when i scratch the surface of the ZF to reveal the NF…
It is just the way you have deteriorated so quickly from interesting discussion to outright insult. That is your choice, but it is a shame as there is now nothing left to engage with you about.
I wonder how many languages Itay is illiterate in.
TomLloyd // June 15, 2010 at 6:36 pm
This is a joke right?
richardmillett // June 15, 2010 at 8:14 pm
‘shame you are so far down and no one will read such words of wisdom, Tom.’
This is a joke right?
How wonderful to have such staunch allies as Bill and Tom.
I have been able to find some old footage of the two of them collaborating.
wtf is that supposed to mean?
Bill don’t worry about him. He is recovering from an injury of me accidently on purpose hitting a nerve too hard and too accurately causing him to panic and retreat. One of the layers covering the monster within is sheer arrogance with the monster thinking that no one knows what he is.
The monster tends to surround himself with those types who tell the king how grand he looks in his clothes when we all know full well he’s completely starkers. Us poor spectators are forced to watch his dangly bits flapping in the wind which is not a pretty picture let me assure you.
When the monster is exposed and he knows that the game is up and starts to panic and throw around some very bizarre random accusations.
Sometimes even psychosis ensues and the monster starts to think that letters in the alphabet are symbols and have deeper meanings. It is at this stage that the men in white coats are on stand by.
He’s obviously back on the scene but still sore from the injury. Think of the moody bed-ridden patient who screams at all the nurses in anger and throws his food at the wall. Not a pretty sight eh?
Don’t you think it’s hilarious how it started by saying he’s only into street art, that’s all?!
Street art my ass.
Richard – well observed – maybe you should address your concern to checkyourpoints…you may have noticed it was her who reduced the tone somewhat…all those early points I made still apply but don’t expect me to smile nicely when spurious bile is thrown my way…you want to degenerate the discussion and encourage people like checkyourpoints with her 4th grade sarcasm then fine – you all should expect it back though – only harder and less friendly.
You want to promote a nobody loves us and we don’t care attitude – fine but don’t bleet when i don’t love you.
I don’t think anyone has been promoting that attitude but checkyourpoints has just been challenging you. No one is expecting to be loved, although of course that would be nice, just understood.
I would always prefer to engage in such discussions in a friendly manner unfortunately you and the others in thr ZF/NF represent a position where peace is the enemy…how can i befriend you, let alone love you?
Whenever you disagree with someone do you always call them Nazis? That is just ridiculous.
come now – the views exhibeted by checkyourpoints are certainly racist in nature…the policies and practices supported by the ZF are certainly racist in nature…so to clarify – nazi was too colourful – racist would be more accurate.
Well you criticise Israel in everything because you don’t like the fact it exists per se, so you will naturally use the “racism” slur. Where is the outrage over the current ethnic cleanisng, racism and the massacres in Kyrgyzstan? Just goes to show that this is about Israel hatred, not support for the Palestinians.
hmmm the post is about Israels wall though..not kyrgyzstan or kashmir or kabul (there is a slight whiff of KKK though)
Israel exists and thats a fact – i neither like it or dislike it just as mongolia exists – i neither like it or dislike it…get a better argument….however israel is a subjective term for so many ZFers…for me Israel is as i understand it within the green line but for the ZFers clearly the world is theirs and they want it all (gobble gobble)…or is it just from the nile to the euphrates?? Do tell what israel is and where its borders end Richard..
But do you spend large amounts of your free time campaigning against, and going to talks about, other countries whose existence you dislike as you do Israel? Israel is not expansionist if you look at the history, neither is it in breach of UN resolutions, if you have ever read them properly. Israel does no more or less than any other country does to defend its citizens.
“However israel is a subjective term for so many ZFers…for me Israel is as i understand it within the green line but for the ZFers clearly the world is theirs and they want it all (gobble gobble)”
If only Itay you could see the satisfied and somewhat smug look on my face as we note the monster further emerging thus further proving my point. I was not aware the Protocols of The Elders of Zion was still in easy circulation? Yep, Jews indeed want to take over the world but I thank you kindly to not discuss this in a open forum like this. Shhhhhhh, keep it on the low 😉
“you and the others in thr ZF/NF represent a position where peace is the enemy…how can i befriend you, let alone love you?”
And thus Itay we love war don’t we? You can at least be original and stop quoting direct from the Elders of Zion. All wars in the world are because of Jews. Jews love war. Yawn
As for your fake friendliness in the early stages? I myself much prefer it this way, especially since I was burdened with this tiresome skill for reading people (Itay I do this all the time). I sometimes wish I was able to fall for fake niceties and pretend that the layers covering the monster are not transparent for me. But unfortunately they are.
Whilst you throw around bizarre accusations such as “but miss, she did it first” (first grade no?) why don’t you explain yourself and clapping in the room at the creating of a Warsaw ghetto? Go on Itay. Explain why when you’re challenged on this it has upset you to the point of near hysteria?
Explain if the creation of a massive Warsaw ghetto applies to only Israelis of Jewish origin or also to Israeli Arabs (Muslims)? Lets add to that Israeli Druse, Israeli Bedouin, The Black Hebrews, shall I go on? None of you are answering the questions Itay.
Note that whilst Itay is throwing around these accusations, THE WHOLE ROOM, I repeat, the whole room, THE WHOLE AUDIENCE, I repeat the whole audience had the room shaking with applause at this sickening RACIST policy (note it is not a statement but a policy). How shameful. You’re right to be ashamed Itay.
You damn well should be.
Richard – of course – not on every country in the world but as i have my own links to Israel and the region it kind off makes sense for me to care about the future of the region…if you read my post you will see i neither like or dislike the existence of israel so repeating this is not really advancing things..
Richard – your position is extreme and is not supported by international law but i know why you say it so OK.
Believe me i understand the unique circumstances and the fear that many people in Israel live with but those jewish people outside israel who do little to resolve conflict but instead engage in stoking conflict with belligerant attitudes are endangering our brothers and sisters in the region…if we can stand back a little for a while and ask what is best for the people of the region in what we do and not instantly say “but, but , but they want to kill us all etc” we may start getting somewhere with true coexistance.
Itay, you are so far left that most people’s positions are extreme to you.
not really – i am not too concerned about the left – right way of thinking…a better reference would be international law and where a persons views and actions are based on those standards..more importantly whether our views and actions lead to a better life* for the people in the region
* based on human rights standards enshrined in international law
Yes, Itay, because you are such an expert on international law. We are humbled to be hearing from someone such as yourself. Thank you.
Shukran Richard – as somebody once said:
“It is just the way you have deteriorated so quickly from interesting discussion to outright insult. That is your choice, but it is a shame as there is now nothing left to engage with you about”
hope you enjoy the rest of your life in the ghetto…
http://www.islam-watch.org/Warner/Taqiyya-Islamic-Principle-Lying-for-Allah.htm
I just came across this post and comments because two of my names were mentioned.
Anyway, Daniel Marks wrote:
I’ve never heard of the philosophy of stateless Zionism, which on the face of it seems to be a contradiction in terms, and imagine that your characterization of it as a fringe movement is incredibly generous.
Daniel, “stateless Zionism” is not what I would call it. I would rather call it non-statist Zionism. And if you want to read about it, you may start by reading about cultural Zionism, which was associated with Ahad ha-Am (Asher Ginsberg), and later with Martin Buber (a Jewish philosopher), Judah Magnes (a prominent American Zionist, who, unlike other prominent American Zionists, actually moved to Palestine — he was the first President of the Hebrew University, which is located in Jerusalem). and other folks who belonged to Magnes’s Ihud organization, such as Hannah Arendt (a well-known Jewish sociologist and philosopher). Sympathizers of Ihud included Albert Einstein, a well-known 20th century physicist.
You can start by reading about those folks.
Most good accounts of Zionism include this version of Zionism, but since ethno-statist Zionism won out, supporters of that version (Ben-Gurion and associates) tended to treat all other kinds of Zionism as anti-Zionism.
The statist Zionists felt that creating a Jewish ethnocracy in which citizenship would be conferred on people by virtue of the Nuremberg Law criteria of who is a Jew (one blood grandfather), or by circumcizing the foreskin of the penis (which male converts to Judaism have to undergo), or by marriage to Jewish (but now, not Palestinian) citizens of the state, or — if a gentile is lucky — by fiat of the Minister of Interior — was what Zionism was all about.
Cultural, non-statist Zionists were considered by statist Zionists to be hopelessly naive, because they had the hutzpah to argue that a Jewish ethnic state declared against the will of the native Palestinian Arabs. would become involved in a never-ending war.
Silly them!
Jeremiah, Ahad Ha’am was a great Zionist and his ideology was to be totally respected but I think the Holocaust changed priorities. A Jewish state was what was required and with immediate effect, not a mere Jewish cultural centre. Sadly, for 6 million Jews a Jewish state was born too late. As for “Jewish ethnic state declared against the will of the native Palestinian Arabs” could you explain what you mean by “native” and how many were “native” at the time? Also, if you object so forcefully to a Jewish state do you also go around objecting equally as forcefully to the many Christian and Muslim states?
‘Jeremiah’, surely the problem with Magnes’ vision is that, not only could it not deal with a real Palestinian Jewish community in other than tiny, symbolic numbers, his form of Zionism was unacceptable even to the moderate Palestinian Arab Muslim and Christian representatives to whom he spoke.
Idealism is unhelpful if it totally ignores the historical situation of the time.