A Story of Two Flotillas

1940 Dunkirk evacuation (kingofpeace.blogspot.com)

There are two flotillas of ships sailing today and the contrast could not be more different.

The brave:

Today is the 70th anniversary of the evacuation of Dunkirk that gave us the term the “Dunkirk spirit”. It was a crucial moment in World War Two.

Between 27 May and 4 June 1940 338,000 British and French soldiers were rescued from the beaches of northern France having been pushed back by the invading Germans.

700 vessels ranging from pleasure craft to fishing boats worked under a hail of German bombs to take the Allied troops off the beaches and ferry them to larger ships so they could be brought home.

Winston Churchill called it a “miracle of deliverance” and the evacuation is seen as one of several events in 1940 that determined the outcome of the war.

To mark the anniversary a flotilla of 60 small ships set sail from southern England and will return on 31 May.

The not-so-brave:

Then there is another flotilla supported by Viva Palestina and a Turkish charity. This one has just set sail to try to break the so-called “siege of Gaza”.

The website of Viva Palestina, which has conducted past convoys to Gaza, states in its narrative on the current flotilla: “The Israeli government has turned Gaza into a prisoner camp and has been carrying out a genocide. This camp and genocidal acts very much resemble Hitler’s actions in history.”

Israel and Egypt have imposed restrictions on Gaza to stop Hamas, the Islamist resistance movement, firing thousands of Kassam rockets into Israel.

Any such comparison of Gaza to the Holocaust, in which six million Jews and four million gays, communists, gypsies and disabled people were systematically murdered, is purely sickening.

The people of Gaza should blame Hamas for their suffering, not Israel.

But then we know what happens if they so much as protest against Hamas. Hamas is notorious for binding the hands and legs of so-called “traitors” before throwing them off the tops of buildings to certain death.

Either that or the “traitors” are shot in both knees.

Hamas doesn’t do trials.

When Viva Palestina conducted a convoy to Gaza in February/March 2009 George Galloway, according to the Charity Commission, confirmed that £25,000 of personal money was handed to Hamas along with 100 vehicles.

I hope the current flotilla will at least bring something constructive to the area but when Viva Palestina tried to enter Gaza from Egypt in January an Egyptian border guard was shot dead by a Palestinian sniper.

While Israel does in fact let in necessities and aid to Gaza it is Islamic extremists who are making life in Gaza intolerable, even to the extent of destroying a United Nations summer camp for children. They accused the UN of promoting immorality.

The current convoy is trying to enter Gaza via sea instead of land after the extended trip Viva Palestina was sent on by the Egyptian authorities in January.

So we recall today the brave men and women of the Dunkirk evacuation for their bravery 70 years ago while under heavy bombardment from the Nazis.

There will never be enough gratitude that we can show them for what they did.

The same may not be said for the activists on the convoy currently en route to Gaza*.

* The father of kidnapped Israeli soldier Gilad Shalit asked the current convoy to carry a parcel and letter into the Gaza Strip for his son, who has been kept in isolation by Hamas for coming up to four years now. The activists refused.

Gaza flotilla

111 responses to “A Story of Two Flotillas

  1. Schulteiss

    Just let Israel try and stop this flotilla from delivering its humanitarian cargo – and throughout the world, all hell will break loose. More nails in Isra-hells coffin. If Isra-hell has any shred of humanity and decency, it will let the Gaza flotilla deliver its humanitarian cargo to the besieged residents of Gaza, the worlds largest open air prison.

  2. richardmillett

    Schulteiss, as you know it was Egypt that refused to let VP in last time. Yet another fact conveniently forgotten. Luckily, i’m here to remind you though.

  3. Scheitheiss (just as mature as “Isra-hell”), if Hamas, an antisemitic, racist and misogynistic terror group stopped attacking Israel, things could improve. As it is, Israel allows humanitarian aid into Gaza – though it is the only examply in history where the victim of aggression helps the aggressor intent on destroying it.

    I suppose you have also forgotten the thousands of Palestinians from Gaza (including the daughter of a top Hamas official just last week) who receive free medical care in Israel. Isn’t that humanitarian?

    Meanwhile, Hamas’ humanity extends to celebrating the deaths of civilians, shooting people in hospital beds at Shifa hospital and throwing Fatah members to their deaths off rooftops.

    Does Hamas bear no responsibility for Gaza?

  4. Schulteiss

    You’d have a problem with whatever democratically-elected government is of the besieged, illegally-occupied Palestinian territories are. The Palestinian people elected Hamas, the Palestinian people elected Hamas, the Palestinian people elected Hamas, should I go on? It is not for you, me or Isra-hell to say who the government of Palestine should be. It’s up to the Palestinian people.

  5. Anna Levine

    I remember listening to my great aunt Tante Babe’s heartbreaking stories of seeing her young cousin killed during an attack on thousands of Jews, a pogrom, in her city of Bialystok. That infamous pogrom was in 1906, the very year the American Jewish Committee was founded to oppose such attacks.

    Feeling alone and unprotected, our family needed the American Jewish Committee. Years later, I remember my parents supporting the Anti-Defamation League because of their support for Jewish refuseniks in the USSR.

    And then there’s my grandfather who endured the extermination of most of his family at the hands of Nazis. He is why I greeted with enthusiasm the emergence of a human rights group in the 1970s named after Simon Wiesenthal, the famous Nazi hunter.

    These Jewish organizations came into existence at a time when my family – and so many others – needed them desperately, and their contributions and achievements on behalf of Jews and non-Jews made me proud.

    But times have changed, and the missions of these groups have changed. All too often, advocacy for universal human rights has taken a back seat to their belief that they must support the Israeli government unconditionally.

    For example, as I write this, it has been 22 days since Israeli citizen and human rights activist Ameer Makhoul was brutally taken from his home in the middle of the night, held without charges, denied a lawyer for 12 days, and most certainly tortured. All under cover of an Israeli media gag order. Regardless of the charges against him, which were only announced today, it is hard to imagine these groups remaining silent in the face of such outrageous repression in a modern democracy. Especially against an Israeli citizen.

    Yet they say nothing.

    The pattern is not new.

    It is painful for me to say that today these organizations – organizations with such a proud history of civil and human rights – for many of us have come to stand for the exact opposite. Sadly, I now find myself opposed to the American Jewish Committee, the Anti-Defamation League, and the Simon Wiesenthal Center for dismissing criticism of Israel as anti-Semitic, for putting Israeli foreign policy above Armenian genocide recognition, for vilifying Muslims and Arabs, and for building a “Museum of Tolerance” on top of a Muslim cemetery in Jerusalem.

    For many people, these organizations have not been relevant for a long time. You might be one of them. But we also know they continue to be an important voice for many Jewish people. And we will always need Jews to be safe. That’s why we must ask them to change just as so many Jews in America have changed.

    My dad is one of those people who supported the Anti-Defamation League. But when I told him the role they played in silencing criticism when it comes to Israel, he literally tore in half a donation check he had planned to send.
    I’m not asking you to go that far. But whether you love them or hate them, we have to call on them to change.

    We don’t expect them to fall in line with everything you and I support, but we expect them to at least have a line when it comes to basic human rights and dignity. Please join me in asking the leaders of the American Jewish Committee, the Anti-Defamation League, and the Simon Wiesenthal Center to denounce the increasing government-sponsored violence in Israel and Palestine. As Jews and non-Jewish allies who believe in universal human rights, we all have a right to demand that they speak out.

    Because they have the ear of Israeli leaders, we believe their denunciation of anti-democratic measures can make a difference where Israelis and Palestinians are suffering the most.

    Just last week, Peter Beinart suggested in his significant piece in the New York Review of Books that the greatest danger to the Jewish community today is not from outside, but from inside.

    Beinart was referring to the increasing disconnect of Jewish leaders from Jewish people, especially young people, when it comes to Israel and Palestine. Their ongoing unconditional support of Israel’s actions, even when they violate the basic tenets of Judaism and democratic values, has become untenable.

    Israel’s violations of human rights and dignity are increasing each day with:
    Midnight raids on activists, including Palestinians, Israeli citizens, and internationals
    Media gag orders, which keep the Israeli press from being able to write about these arrests
    Crushing non-violent protests by the Israeli Army, using rubber bullets, tear gas, and even live ammunition to put down protests
    Silencing NGO’s who report on these outrages, using restrictive legislation in the Israeli Knesset.
    Banning internationals who are insufficiently supportive of Israel.
    And through all of this, Jewish leaders remain silent.

    Enough is enough.

    It has been decades since the first Palestinian refugees were barred from returning to their homes. It’s time our community leaders reflected our values and did as much to combat oppression when it is practiced by Jews as when it practiced against us.

  6. richardmillett

    Anna, to say the American Jewish Committee, the Anti-Defamation League, and the Simon Wiesenthal Center vilify Muslims and Arabs is highly defamatory and ignorant. Where’s your evidence?

    The Palestinian refugees, most of whom are not refugees now, will return to their own Palestinian state in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, when they finally want peace.

    Schulteiss, “the Palestinian people elected Hamas”, so what?

    I pity them that they had such a lousy choice between Fatah and Hamas, but electing Hamas doesn’t give Hamas authority to kill innocent Israeli men, women and children while hiding behind their own people.

  7. Jew of conscience

    Our American friend, Anna is 100% spot on Richard!

    By the way, who are you supporting this World Cup; ‘Palestine’ or ‘The Occupation’?

    Would Israel even allow Palestine to field a team?

  8. richardmillett

    Palestine has a football team. They just aren’t very good.

  9. Jew of conscience

    STOP PRESS!

    Hanin Zoabi, a member of Israel’s parliament, the Knesset, and a passenger on the flotilla, called it a “humanitarian campaign for the 1.5 million Palestinian people who Israel put in jail for about the last four years without allowing building material, without educational material, without food into the Gaza strip.

    “Israel destroyed 165 schools and more than 100 (factories) and destroyed tens of thousands of houses without enabling the Palestinians to rebuild their homes and their lives,” Zoabi said. “This sends a very strong political message towards Israel…

    Listen to your conscience Richard.

  10. A funny thing happened on the way to this forum.

    The sentence:

    The people of Gaza should blame Hamas for their suffering, not Israel.

    … had me sigh with resignation and calmly determined to hit the ‘unscubscribe’ button (for the whole of your blog). This blog seems to have degraded into a pastiche (but perhaps it was always like it is now…) Apart from the fact that there’s more than one flotilla (have you forgotten the Turkish one?), comparing the rescue from Dunkirk to the ships destined for Gaza and concluding the latter are the ‘not-so-brave’ is really beyond the pale. One can disagree with the people who want to help out in Gaza but to call them names is simply ridiculous and beyond good taste.

    But I decided to take one last peek at the comment section (expecting it to be empty) only to find Anna Levine and Jew of Conscience’s comments. Unfortunately also the guy who has the gall to claim I’ve ‘no humanity’, the plonker Modders, has also hit with his ‘Timely post!’ mini one-liner. Anything to support Israel and bash the Palestinians, I guess…

    Richard, with this piece you’ve now sunk to the depths of an ultra hawkish Zionist, never mind your bullsh*t about ‘not being a Zionist’ or being an ‘independent journalist’: Ariel Sharon couldn’t have clarified his position any better than you just did.

    I sincerely hope Israel does what it preaches it will do with the Gaza ships because it will be a complete PR disaster for a country that basically now seems increasingly in the hands of a Far Right military industrial complex that couldn’t care less what are the consequences of its actions.

    I won’t be commenting here often anymore, you’ll be pleased to know. But I hope thoughtful dissenters like Anna and JoC will come and rattle your cage once in a while.

    Anna, thanks for your insightful comment.

  11. richardmillett

    Thanks, Modders. Just shows you the level of people we are dealing with here. I thought it stunk as it didn’t address any issues in my posting. A nice made up Jewish name to go along with it too: “Anna Levine”. That’s the lowest part of it!

  12. There is a great deal of denial in the West concerning the Palestinians, they are treated by wealthy Westerners as infants. To be pitied, to be the subject of charity and never treated as adults.

    Because if the Westerners who whine on so much were truly concerned about the welfare of Palestinians then they would naturally question the activities of Hamas and Islamic Jihad.

    They would, as smart Westerners, ask the questions, do the activities of Hamas bring benefits to the Palestinians? Does firing rockets at Israelis assist Palestinians? etc etc

    But those questions never get asked because most of these Western individuals are more anti-Israeli than pro-Palestinian.

    So when Hamas jail, torture and execute Palestinians then most of these Westerners won’t say a bloody thing. That happened recenty and there was hardly a peep to be heard in the West, with the notable exception of AI & HRW.

    It is quite breathtaking hypocrisy when you think about it

  13. richardmillett

    “One can disagree with the people who want to help out in Gaza but to call them names is simply ridiculous and beyond good taste.”

    Gert, “help out in Gaza”? Really? Try telling that to the family of the Egyptian border guard who was shot dead by a Palestinian sniper last time VP tried to enter Gaza.

  14. Richard,

    You’re welcome.

    Years ago I too use to think that they were genuinely concerned with the welfare of the Palestinians, or at least interested in the Middle East.

    But I was dissuaded of that by my exchanges with these ‘Westerners’, a sizeable portion of them know next to nothing about the Middle East, they often parrot stuff from Chomsky or read on the web.

    They rarely ever seemed to read good-quality history books or contemporary accounts of the region.

    They don’t so much respond to arguments as trot out old lines.

    Then when faced with the likes of Hamas their silence is deafening, which tells you much about their thinking, and real attitude.

  15. Oh dear Mr Millett. This sorry excuse of an article pretty much sums it all up.

    The research you undertook to produce this trash sadly didn’t include finding out which organisation(s) were behind the effort.

    Viva Palestina is not involved in this!

    It has been organised by a coalition of groups, consisting of the Free Gaza Movement, IHH, Perdana Global Peace Organisation from Malaysia as well as other European groups.

    So next time, at least get your facts straight.

  16. richardmillett

    QuinlanM, i’ve heard speeches by George Galloway talking about this venture. I think you are very naive.

    http://www.vivapalestina.org/alerts/flotilla_260510.htm

  17. Mr Millett, having an article on your website discussing the Freedom Flotilla does not mean one is in directly involved in it. By your logic, you are a key figure behind the fleet too.

    You should withdraw your comment that Viva Palestina “has just set sail” when quite clearly it hasn’t. Otherwise this entire blog entry is riddled with errors.

  18. Sceitheiss, the Palestinians elected Hamas. So? The Germans elected Hitler. It doesn’t mean Israel has to deal with Hamas, (who, incidentally, came to power in a coup against fatah, killing Fatah members by throwing them to their deaths from the rooftops – not exacly very democratic, is it? But you would never mention that of course – truth isn’t your forte).

    I could turn that around and tell you that Hamas refuses to deal with the (truly) democratically elected government of Israel. Don’t see you wailing about that either.

    What a hypocrite!

  19. Jew of no conscience, do you condemn Hamas’ antisemitism, misogyny and terror?

  20. Anna, how nice of you to include you Holocaust credentials at the start of your post. Does this mean that everything after is beyond criticism?

  21. Anna, Israel is a country at war. I would ask you to find any nation on earth, faced with the genocidal enemies which Israel faces, who act in a morally superior manner.

    Name one.

  22. Adam, grow up, Israel is a crumbling little Apartheid state.

    More importantly, Richard are you going to admit this entire article is premised on a fabrication of the truth.

    VP is not involved in this venture!

  23. richardmillett

    QuinlanM, it is meaningless what they call themselves? It is always the same faces. If it looks and sounds like a duck, it usually is a duck.

  24. Haha, is that it? Ducks?

    Are these the journalistic standards you have set for yourself?

    Mr Millett, you really shouldn’t be making such elementary errors.

    I won’t go on any longer as I understand how embarrassing this must be for you.

  25. Richard

    Just read your link, what offensive ahistorical nonsense:

    “Current Israeli government causes itself to become isolated by declaring everyone as its enemy.

    In fact, it is isolating the Jewish people by doing so. It has turned Gaza into a prisoner camp and has been carrying out a genocide.

    This camp and genocidal acts very much resemble Hitler’s actions in history.

    It is an important duty for all the Jews, especially the Jews from Turkey living in Israel.

    We are calling out to them and to all people of Israel to stand for justice.

    We would like them to also know that Jewish people that live in Israel will become totally isolated from the rest of the world thanks to these Israeli policies. “

  26. QuinlanM,

    No, Israel is actually thriving at the moment, bucking the world recession trend. Hardly crumbling. And it is the ONLY country of the region which is not an apartheid state. Look at the Palestinian areas, Jordan Saudi Arabia, Syria, Iran – all apartheid despotic police states. Yet that doesn’t seem to trouble you. Ever heard of dhimmitude? Do you know it’s illegal to be a Jewish citizen of Jordan? Isn’t that apartheid? I think it is you know needs to grow a little, both intellectually and morally. What hypocrisy!

    Perhaps you could try writing posts which contain some substance, rather than epithets and recycled slogans. Individuals who speak in such terms do so in order to save them from thinking.

  27. Modders wrote in characteristic style:

    But I was dissuaded of that by my exchanges with these ‘Westerners’, a sizeable portion of them know next to nothing about the Middle East, they often parrot stuff from Chomsky or read on the web [sic].

    Talk about spouting clichés! Modders is of course the real expert here, with boots on the grounds and agents in the field, never relying on the Web (which explains why his posts are always full of links) and only reading ‘quality books’, specially selected by him (or Hoffman and Alderman) so he can continue to believe what he wants to believe and feed his bad case of philosemitism.

    Anyone would think you take yourself just a bit too seriously…

    And it’s true that there are two ‘flotillas’, one a Turkish ship and the other the Rachel Corrie, sailing from Ireland. Viva Palestina as an organisation have no active involvement in this at all, even though some Viva Palestina (Galloway’s group) members may be involved in the Turkish effort and Galloway’s VP! site promotes the Turkish effort. You’re spreading misinformation, Richard. Knowing you (as a ‘journalist’ [big cough!]) it’s just your usual sloppiness.

    What kind of people can reasonably oppose a humanitarian relief effort to what is clearly a stricken area and possibly support the promised seizing of the ship(s) in international waters and detention of its crew by the ‘most moral army in the world’ is totally beyond me…

    Gert, “help out in Gaza”? Really? Try telling that to the family of the Egyptian border guard who was shot dead by a Palestinian sniper last time VP tried to enter Gaza.

    You truly are an arch-conservative imbecile, aren’t you? In the name of a past incident in which one man died in a scuffle you feel justified to condemn an entire relief effort! How about the Viva Palestina! convoy members having been roughed up by said Egyptian border guards (an incident at the time applauded by fellow conservative Zionista Melanie Phillips)? How about lamenting the many relatives of peaceful protesters, Palestinian or international, who’ve been injured or killed by the snotty boys and girls of the ‘most moral army in the world’? What about that army trying to sell NBC weapons to one of the most depraved settler states in the world at that time, South Africa? You’re losing your conkers, mate.

  28. Adam:

    Regarding Jordan, I suggest you consult this resource here:

    Jordan and the Jews: Another lie Dershowitz told you

  29. richardmillett

    Gert, if i am spreading misinformation you should let socialistunity know.

    They posted this: “The flotilla, supported by Viva Palestina and the Turkish charity IHH, now sailing to Gaza from Turkey…”

    Yes, i do actually condemn the whole convoy after what happened. A man lost his life! You are truly unbelievable, Gert, and heartless to boot.

  30. No Gert, you should see this:

    http://elderofziyon.blogspot.com/2009/07/why-jews-cannot-become-citizens-of.html

    Saudi Arabia also specifically bars Jews from being citizens. Of course that’s OK with you, right? Real apartheid and real silence from the Israel bashers.

  31. Pingback: Vanishing Flotillas And Racism. « ModernityBlog

  32. modernityblog

    Richard,

    Please ignore Gert he doesn’t know anything about the Middle East.

    I’ve posted on that Flotilla and the article at the Viva Palestina site.

    I doubt any of the supposed supporters of the Palestinians here will comment on the anti-Jewish racism in there, see my comment of May 27, 2010 at 11:07 pm.

  33. Adam:

    Thanks to Israel some hundreds of thousands of Israeli Jews have dual citizenship, while several million Palestinians have no citizenship AT ALL.

    Richard:

    A man lost his life!

    Again, please spare me your fake concern for the life of an Arab and your sanctimoniousness, when Israel sees off Arabs by the dozen.

    You make it sound like Viva Palestina was responsible for his death. As always no context, nothing. You’re a truly lousy journalist but you’d make an even lousier judge. Your purpose in life is mainly to amuse me on Press TV…

    Modders:

    What was it with the quote marks around Westerners? Those who criticise Israel not ‘true’ Westerners? Or is it because a sizable portion of these critics are Muslim immigrants?

  34. Modders:

    As so often there is nothing racist about what you highlighted. Yes, strong language and I would have put it differently myself. With you everything is antisemitism. You’re a nutcase that does the fight against racism no good. One day you’ll realise that. Now let the comments on your post roll in. I might enjoy that a lot…

    If Israel wants to keep weapons out, it should do what any sensible nation would do: examine incoming goods, it’s really not hard to do, even less so with modern technology.

    Instead she chooses foolhardy to try and block a humanitarian convoy, with threats to ‘detain’ the crew. You see nothing bizarre in that.

    As commenter Emmanuel, an Israeli Jew, posted in response to my brief post:

    You’re right. Israel is being stupid. The activists should be allowed to reach Gaza after their cargo is inspected.

    Nice to hear they haven’t all gone bonkers in the bunker…

  35. modernityblog

    “As so often there is nothing racist about what you highlighted. “

    Richard, rest my case.

  36. richardmillett

    Gert only recognises anti-Semitism as being on the far right. Even the Hamas Charter gets the seal of approval from hardcore Communists.

    And he presumes others have no feelings or concerns when innocent people lose their lives. He shouldn’t judge others by what he feels himself.

    If VP hadn’t tried to barge its way into Gaza last time no one would have lost their lives. The loss of one single life wipes out any good that the convoy could have brought. The fact they are repeating the exercise shows how reckless they are.

  37. Gert, why is that? It’s because the larger number of Jewish refugees from Arab countries (where they lived under dhimmi apartheid and pogroms) were given Israeli citizenship when they got to Israel (many were either stripped of their Arab citizenship or weren’t afforded citizenship in the first place by the Arab nations, being Jewish) whilst the Arab refugees were not afforded citizenship by their Arab brothers in surrounding Arab nations- who still, to this day, refuse them citizenship.

    I note you have backtracked from your original complaint about Jordan. Saudi has real apartheid, and you know it. Won’t you condemn it? Your silence is deafening.

  38. Richard:

    When a country imposes an unjust and draconian siege, one that just goes on and one with no end in sight, expect others to try and break it, that’s as sure as night follows day. I know in the Conservative world things usually get poofed into existence by your Imaginary Friend, but for us in the evidence based community, cause still precedes effect.

    If VP hadn’t tried to barge its way into Gaza last time no one would have lost their lives. The loss of one single life wipes out any good that the convoy could have brought. The fact they are repeating the exercise shows how reckless they are.

    The guy who is responsible for the death of the Egyptian border guard is the Hamasnik who fired the shot. Part of the responsibility, in mitigative terms, lays also with the Egyptian authorities for not allowing a peaceful, humanitarian mission to enter Gaza and for setting their goons on the activists. This is how ANY court in the world would see it, bar perhaps an Israeli one. VP is completely, 100 % innocent in this. Your ability to lay blame where none lays to try and deligitimise humanitarian aid is stunning. Please don’t talk about others being ‘heartless’: presumably when G-d ran out of hearts, in your case put a stone in instead.

    Regards SU, I don’t read it. You did and ended up with egg on your face. Please don’t blame me…

    Adam:

    I note you have backtracked from your original complaint about Jordan. Saudi has real apartheid, and you know it. Won’t you condemn it? Your silence is deafening.

    No backtracking here, only in your wishful mind. Regarding Jews in Saudi, isn’t it a Zionist’s dream to live among his brethren in the land of Zion, far away from the ‘sandniggers’ and other ‘antisemitic filth’?

  39. modernityblog

    “When a country imposes an unjust and draconian siege, one that just goes on and one with no end in sight, expect others to try and break it, that’s as sure as night follows day.”

    No convoy to Tibet ?

    Oh, I forget some “Anti-Zionists”, like Andrew Murray leader of the Stop the War Coalition consider China to be some Workers Paradise and Tibet to be justifiably repressed. No double standards there eh?

    No convoy to Yemen? which has suffered recently in a conflict with Saudi Arabia.

    No convoy to Sudan? with the on-going conflicts where 100,000s have been killed.

    Nothing sent to Chad? etc etc

    Still, I suppose these conflicts are not politically “sexy” in the West, no Israelis involved.

  40. So Gert, you REALLY don’t mind the apartheid of Saudi, Jordan, Iran, Syria, Hamas run Gaza.

    That’s truly pathetic – and hypocritical. Any talk about injustice coming from you is a joke.

  41. Anything to save yourself addressing the substance Gert.

    Truly pathetic – and transparent.

  42. richardmillett

    Adam, Gert doesn’t do substance.

  43. modernityblog

    Richard,

    Kevin Ovenden from Viva Palestina UK is on one of the ships and here’s his bias account, http://www.ipadio.com/phlogs/Gaza_TVNews/2010/5/27/Gaza-TVs-phlog–3rd-phonecast

  44. Modders:

    No double standards there eh?

    If double standards are what you want to talk about then there’s plenty of them to go around for everyone, just on I/P alone. We’ve just had the US apologise for ‘singling out’ Israel regarding the NPT issue. Singling out? Demanding of Israel that it does what’s being demanded of everyone else? That’s called ‘singling out’? Must be those ‘unbreakable, unshakable, eternal bonds’ again, terms the superpower would never dream of using even in a million years about ANY other country in the entire world. As far as double standards go, that should suffice anyone to keep going for a day…

    I could post here each day (and multiple times a day too) perfectly documented human real-time rights abuses (and far worse besides that) committed by Israel and neither you, Richard ‘Hasbara 101’ Millett or Adam would utter as much as a single peep. Nothing, nada, zilch. In case you are interested in reading about (just a few) of these cases I suggest Mondoweiss or Anthony Loewenstein.

    But Tibet, my dear nincompoop, is a truly interesting case. While undoubtedly multiple right groups are on the case, do you really think the Western governments you so adore will EVER lift a finger to address that situation? Do you see these governments go against their self-proclaimed economic interests with the largest emerging economy in the world, soon to overtake the West as the new superpower and economic and manufacturing powerhouse? This is not an endorsement of China, BTW. Thanks to Western lethargy and our endless capability to entertain ourselves to death, China may soon be the place that ‘does and makes everything’. No, the West will leave Tibet well alone but please don’t blame me…

    Instead we’ll concentrate on Iran for the sole reason that’s it’s a country that’s in ascendancy in the ME and that IS OUR playground, not the Pesky Persians’. See also the latest flap with the LEU exchange involving Turkey and Brazil. Brazil now firmly not being flavour of the month in the almighty Washington. Not doing as it’s told, you see. Tut tut…

    Richard:

    Adam, Gert doesn’t do substance.

    Says the man who parrots every Zionist talking point going and always manages to somehow blame anyone else, preferably Hamas. Says the man who manages to blame Viva Palestina for the death of an Egyptian border guard. Regarding that kind of reasoning, I’ve come up with an analogy.

    If for the 1955 24 hour race of Le Mans thousands of spectators hadn’t shown up, the race would not have been held, Pierre Levegh wouldn’t have lost control of his Mercedes and about a 100 spectators wouldn’t have lost their lives. Damn those spectators, guilty of showing up!

  45. I’ve now listened to the Ovenden phlog. What’s ‘bias’ [sic] about it? It’s just a simple account, about 2 and 1/2 minutes long. Nothing particularly interesting. Where’s the bias?

  46. Regarding the siege of Gaza, what’s far more important to note is that it simply isn’t necessary. If Israel wanted to keep weapons out of Gaza it could do what any other country would do: examine incoming goods. But as blogger Emmanuel reminded me, Israel’s STATED objective goes further: it seeks to impose also an economic blockade (the purpose of which is seriously mysterious to me: only a fascistoid bureaucrat could come up with that one). So blame Israel for those who want to break it.

    This siege is a logical cul de sac: the Gazans, convinced, and rightly so, that they have justice and history on their side aren’t going to turn on Hamas and likewise Hamas isn’t mysteriously going to melt away. The only possible way out is talks. These will happen sooner or later. At that point I’ll tell you: ‘I told you so…’ A little patience…

  47. richardmillett

    “the Gazans, convinced, and rightly so, that they have justice and history on their side aren’t going to turn on Hamas” – The first time you are right, Gert. They won’t turn on Hamas. They wouldn’t dare (and i don’t blame them either).

    Notice how Gert “Don’t mention Hamas” mentions Hamas. Funny that.

  48. modernityblog

    “their side aren’t going to turn on Hamas”

    It would be incredibly hard for the Palestinians in Gaza to turn on Hamas, as Hamas control **all** of the state security apparatus, police and military.

    That is leaving aside the unofficial paramilitaries and auxiliaries.

    But this comment again shows a profound ignorance of Gaza, one of the first trips abroad by Mahmoud Zahar was to get cash from the Arab states to build up the Hamas military machinery.

    Zahar collected some $20 million.

    Was this money used to relieve poverty in Gaza? Was this money used to fund hospitals or other humanitarian enterprises? No and NO.

    It was used to keep Hamas in power.

    That’s what it is all about keeping Hamas in power, but Western apologists don’t want to admit that.

    Should the Palestinians rise up against Hamas they would be slaughtered.

  49. Richard:

    I don’t get your last comment. Whatever… But for someone who complains of lack of substance I see precious little attempts to rebut my last points.

    Adam:

    Re. your ‘Apartheid’ analogy, let’s assume purely for argument’s sake that your comparison is a 100 % correct, does that mean that Israeli Apartheid is justifiable? Do you also justify murder because murders happen anyway?

    Re. Apartheid in Israel, opinion differs of course but I consider the West Bank to be a form of Apartheid and possibly worse than that. Inside the Green Line things are much better (for Arabs) but far, far from perfect. This just in: Arab Israeli MK joins facebook group that pledges to burn him (from the excellent ‘Promised land blog).

    Your point of trying to create some moral equivalence between Saudi Arabian ‘Apartheid’ and West Bank Apartheid falls seriously short of being a contending analogy though. While Saudi and much of the Arab/Muslim world deserve much criticism, there is at least one thing they can’t be accused of: militarily occupying someone else’s land and colonising considerable parts of it, including own population transfer, for 42 years now.

  50. richardmillett

    “If Israel wanted to keep weapons out of Gaza it could do what any other country would do: examine incoming goods”

    Gert, as ever you make things sound so simple. You know as well as we all do that Hamas doesn’t just import caseloads of Kassam rockets which have a big “Kassams” label stuck on the consignment.

    They appropriate imported materials destined for the innocent Gazan population and then use it to make the rockets themselves.

  51. Modders:

    For someone who denounces others for reading stuff on the Web your comment is indeed again rather rich: you’ve been reading nothing but Zionist smearing. I have a firsthand account of someone (a Gazan Muslim) who lives and works in Khan Younis, who is clearly not a Hamas supporter and who contradicts the ‘it’s totalitarian rule’ fable totally. But then things like ‘antisemite’, ‘fascist’ and ‘totalitarian’ roll off your tongue like nothing. A real 101 keyboard warrior, aren’t you?

    Hamas has more than a few points where it deserves serious criticism but you simply fall for Western demonisation the Zionists, including yourself, are so good at. You’re basically believing your own lies.

    Hamas will remain fairly popular in Gaza. If one really wanted to undermine them you by start drawing them into the political process, that would soften up the least radical elements and break up the group. Bringing them completely into the political fold is perfectly possible and an opportunity that was missed the moment they won the elections and the West decided to put an embargo on them. I wrote about it extensively at the time and after cast Lead I feel totally vindicated.

    Now talking will soon start: so many years and lives lost…

    Your problem is that you’re a peddler: a peddler of linkies and factoids and a believer in the charade the West calls ‘enlightenment values’. As a result you can’t see the bigger picture, may possibly be nominally opposed to the Occupation (are you? Your Zionist friend and wimp par excellence ‘Bob from Brockney’ seems to think so), yet rant and rail against anyone who campaigns against it.

    I hope for your sake that in real life your different from on the Web, because otherwise I suggest you hand out free headache tablets to those who’ve to deal with a pedantic square head like you.

    Please spare me any complaints about ad hom: you lost the right to complain about that the moment you and your compadres 10 CC and Vildechaye started laying into me on that fateful day our paths had to cross…

  52. Richard:

    Gert, as ever you make things sound so simple. You know as well as we all do that Hamas doesn’t just import caseloads of Kassam rockets which have a big “Kassams” label stuck on the consignment.

    That’s a fair point (although it doesn’t address the ‘economic’ side of the blockade).

    Let me tell you true a story. Somewhat reluctant to give up more of my privacy (undoubtedly some opponent will try and make mint of it) let me tell you that I’m a chemist by education with a passion that I fuel further in a home lab. Due in part to progress, in part to concerns about terrorism, for backyard chemists the supply of base chemicals is drying up: without credentials from a certified institute some things are now completely off limits (great way of curtailing civil liberties, if you ask me). So what do we do? Simple really: make them ourselves. Takes more time and makes for an interesting learning curve but stop us it will not.

    The moral of the tale? Stop even a single gram of steel getting into Gaza and those in need of steel will simply smelt what ever scrap steel or iron is going around (with all these sites of utter destruction that must be rather a lot). My own Dinky Toy charcoal fired ‘furnace’, cobbled together on a rainy Sunday from a paint can, some fire cement and some common garden ingredients fell short about 100 C to reach the melting point of steel.

    The human spirit is indomitable, which is why Zionism won’t win at the end of the day…

  53. richardmillett

    Gert, well at least Israel isn’t handing Hamas weaponry on a plate, and they are still firing rockets but at a much reduced rate. A Thai worker was killed by one a few weeks ago inside Israel.

    “which is why Zionism won’t win at the end of the day…” This bemuses me. I am not sure how you interprete Zionism. Obviously very negatively. Zionism is just the desire for Jewish seld-determination in the Jews’ historical homeland. What is so objectionable about that basic premise, especially if one accepts the principal of Palestinian self-determination also?

  54. Daniel Marks

    My opinion, for what it’s worth about the Hamas. I prefer them to the Fatah.

    Don’t get me wrong, they’re murderous, fanatical, sexist, homophobic and everything else you can imagine and I’d much rather people who want to live in peace with me. I’d be happy if my neighbors were Dutch or Belgian, even if they’re like Gert – but they’re not.

    The Hamas wants to destroy Israel and so do Fatah. The former just hide this less well and are more prone to tell the truth.

    Furthermore, while they share Fatah’s total lack of concern for their own people lives, they do not seem to be corrupt and there is no evidence that they’ve been stealing European money for themselves.

    Most importantly, I believe that they represent the Palestinians, at least in Gaza, and they’re about as bad as it comes. If you make peace with Abu Mazen, you’ve made peace with one nice old man who can’t deliver the goods and is scared to set foot in Rafiah. Make peace with the Hamas and the Fatah leadership will disappear to France or wherever to waste its people’s money in the casinos, but at least they’ll be gone.

    It won’t be today or tomorrow and it may G-d forbid, come after many more bullets have been fired, but I believe that peace will come and it will be made between real Jews and real Arabs.

    While they may be my enemy today and we might, unfortunately, have to kill many more of them, unlike the Oxford or Harvard educated Quislings, the local Hamas leadership are the real deal and that is something worthy of my respect.

  55. Hi Rich,

    Only just seen your post . . . after posting this:
    http://melchettmike.wordpress.com/2010/05/30/dirty-seamen-stain-dunkirk-weekend/

    What can I say? I only went to Hasmo, not City!

    M

  56. Michael Goldman

    Dan
    You write about the Hamas
    ” they’re murderous, fanatical, sexist, homophobic ”
    I just find it a little strange that you bunch all the other attributes together with murderous.
    Most of us men are sexist when given the chance
    I reckon everyone on this blog (with the obvious exception of Mike) is at least a little fanatical.
    And none of us care too much for the gay boys .
    It’s a little like declaring:
    “They’re murderous have bad taste in clothes and fart in bed”
    Just thought I’d share this with you all.

  57. richardmillett

    Michael, I think he meant oppressive of women rather than sexist.

    “And none of us care too much for the gay boys .” – What on earth do you mean by this???? How can you write this???

  58. Michael Goldman

    Sorry Richard.
    I didn’t realize.

  59. Daniel Marks

    He meant what he said and he said what he meant.

    SEXIST
    A person who discriminates on grounds of sex; someone who practises sexism; Unfairly discriminatory against one sex in favour of the other
    en.wiktionary.org/wiki/sexist

    SEXISM – discriminatory or abusive behavior towards members of the opposite sex
    wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

    On a personal note Goldman is the last person who should be talking about bad taste in clothes or, indeed, breaking wind in bed.

    Without disclosing too much, I shall suffice by mentioning a certain purple bar-mitzvah suit, or was it light green?

    I shall not be drawn into any discussion of the sexual preferences of the author of this excellent blog as I know nothing, and wish to know less rather than more.

  60. Richard:

    I am not sure how you interprete Zionism. Obviously very negatively.

    To the existence of Israel I’m resigned (so is BTW, the whole ‘murderous Arab world’, the ‘Muslim death cult’ and actually even Hamas). But its behaviour remains appalling and outrageous. The siege is an excellent example, as is the support it receives from so may Zionists, Israelis, Jews and non-Jews alike. Blowhards like The Belcher only further reinforce my point…

    Here’s Gideon Levy in Ha’aretz:

    The Israeli propaganda machine has reached new highs its hopeless frenzy. It has distributed menus from Gaza restaurants, along with false information. It embarrassed itself by entering a futile public relations battle, which it might have been better off never starting. They want to maintain the ineffective, illegal and unethical siege on Gaza and not let the “peace flotilla” dock off the Gaza coast? There is nothing to explain, certainly not to a world that will never buy the web of explanations, lies and tactics.
    Only in Israel do people still accept these tainted goods. Reminiscent of a pre-battle ritual from ancient times, the chorus cheered without asking questions. White uniformed soldiers got ready in our name. Spokesmen delivered their deceptive explanations in our name. The grotesque scene is at our expense. And virtually none of us have disturbed the performance.
    The chorus has been singing songs of falsehood and lies. We are all in the chorus saying there is no humanitarian crisis in Gaza. We are all part of the chorus claiming the occupation of Gaza has ended, and that the flotilla is a violent attack on Israeli sovereignty – the cement is for building bunkers and the convoy is being funded by the Turkish Muslim Brotherhood. The Israeli siege of Gaza will topple Hamas and free Gilad Shalit. Foreign Ministry spokesman Yossi Levy, one of the most ridiculous of the propagandists, outdid himself when he unblinkingly proclaimed that the aid convoy headed toward Gaza was a violation of international law. Right. Exactly.
    It’s not the siege that is illegal, but rather the flotilla. It wasn’t enough to distribute menus from Gaza restaurants through the Prime Minister’s Office, (including the highly recommended beef Stroganoff and cream of spinach soup ) and flaunt the quantities of fuel that the Israeli army spokesman says Israel is shipping in. The propaganda operation has tried to sell us and the world the idea that the occupation of Gaza is over, but in any case, Israel has legal authority to bar humanitarian aid. All one pack of lies.
    Only one voice spoiled the illusory celebration a little: an Amnesty International report on the situation in Gaza. Four out of five Gaza residents need humanitarian assistance. Hundreds are waiting to the point of embarrassment to be allowed out for medical treatment, and 28 already have died. This is despite all the Israeli army spokesman’s briefings on the absence of a siege and the presence of assistance, but who cares?

    Hear, hear…

  61. richardmillett

    Gert, you quote Levy as much as I “blame Hamas”. Levy relies totally on Amnesty, which is hardly neutral in all this. Amnesty is very anti-Israel. For the next two weeks in London they have an anti-security barrier exhibition followed by a talk. They have presented many talks, e.g. Ben White, and reports, e.g. on water, that are anti-Israel. If this report is correct what kind of humanitarian assistance is needed? Why doesn’t Levy expand?

    Operation Cast Lead must have been horrendous for Gazans, but since then i have seen no footage or other evidence of a humanitarian crisis.

  62. Richard:

    Amnesty is very anti-Israel

    That is bull. A gross exaggeration at best. Amnesty is manned by humans and they come from a perspective, some bias can therefore never be completely excluded. But reputable Rights organisations have methods to keep bias to the strictest minimum. Your position is about as believable as the guy with a rap sheet the size of the Humberbridge who states that ‘the police have it in for me’. No mate, you’re a recidivist criminal, period.

    Operation Cast Lead must have been horrendous for Gazans, but since then i have seen no footage or other evidence of a humanitarian crisis.

    I don’t care whether there’s a ‘humanitarian’ crisis or not because we’d only squabble over the definition [of ‘humanitarian crisis’]. But I’ve just come back from Jewbonics (Max Ajl) where I placed this comment:

    “Unbelievable also how Western supporters, from the comfort and affluence of their flourishing leafy suburbs, should try and make the argument that ‘it’s not all that bad [in Gaza], I’ll have the Stroganoff please’ when if said Westerners had to live in circumstances anywhere resembling Gaza’s, all hell would break loose…”

    Humanitarian crisis or not, I have first hand testimony that for a lot of people living conditions are such they would be unacceptable to even the poorest of Westerners. And then there’s John Ging’s verdict too. But you’ll probably dismiss the UN as ‘anti-Israel’ too…

    There remains the far more important point that this siege will not achieve anything. No wonder there are rumours (opinions even) that Israel real motive is to turn the Palestinians into a broken, defeated, humiliated people, in the hope that this way they will comply to whatever Israel has in store for them. That is how it’s starting to look to me…

  63. richardmillett

    Gert, Israel and Israelis have nothing against the Palestinians. They just don’t like the way the Palestinians are ruled by Fatah and Hamas and the implications this has for peace. Fatah and Hamas, in their current forms, are not interested in a two-state solution. See Daniel Marks last night at 7.10pm. He lives there, he should know.

  64. Oh well, if Daniel says so then I fold, naturally😉

    Anyroads, I think we’re done here.

  65. Gert, Gideon Levy – and this is “emess” – sits in my local cafe every Friday morning. Anyway, he thinks you’re a cock. I thought I might let it wait until my visit to Bridlington in the summer, but I couldn’t . . .

  66. Melchett:

    I’d advise you to stay away from Bridlington: it’s grossly overrated anyway. Nowadays the beaches are infested with Belgian paedophiles and the rest of the town overrun by Jew-hating Mooooslims who pray night and day for the fall of Zion. Just having an ice-cream here is a hazardous undertaking on account of the large numbers of cases of severe food poisoning… It’s just not worth it, innit…

  67. Even though he himself might not take it up the jacksie, I reckon that Michael Goldman “cares for” one “gay boy” at least.

    And I believe the same may even be true of Daniel Marks . . . though the circumference of his “Gary Glitter” is a source of some conjecture.

  68. Gert's Mate

    Just to make sure there are no misunderstandings I want to make it perfectly clear that my relationship with Gert is a macho relationship and neither of us has any inclination that it should be otherwise.

  69. Michael Goldman

    Mike
    I am at a loss to understand your constant need to lower the level of discussion.
    Brown Hatters have an important roll to play in society even if it is only to provide a group of males which receives less female attention than yourself.

  70. Daniel Marks

    Gert,

    What exactly is the story with Bridlington to which you and Mike are forever alluding?

    With my overfertile settler imagination I had assumed it was a pun on your name, as in “Burlington Bertie from Bow”

    But he was hardBurlington Bertie, hardly Bridlington Gertie.

    On a serious note you expressed your apprehension about revealing that you are, in fact a chemist, please be assured that this delightful titbit will never be used against you.

    However, on a wholly unrelated note Michael Goldman would be happy if you could supply him with reputable names of pickled herring flavored Viagra distributors that can ship to occupied Givat Zeev.

  71. Frank Randle

    Goodbye Israel. After 60 years of suffering. No flowers. Memorial service to be announced.

  72. Daniel Marks

    “Brown Hatters have an important roll to play in society…”

    A role is a character or part played by a performer. Roll has many senses, including a portion of bread and a list of names of persons belonging to a group.

    Example:

    Michael Goldman ate a roll with herring before accepting a role to star in an adult movie alongside Mike. It was called, “Mike and Mike Roll in the Hay”

  73. mostly harmless

    You must be soooooo happy Richard.

  74. mostly harmless

    Will you be going to Downing Street at 2pm today to wave Israeli flags and shout down the protesters? Will you be entering in your ‘anti-israel events’ section? What about all the other people who post on your blog, will they be joining you?

  75. Michael Goldman

    Once again Dan you missed the pun.

  76. “So we recall today the brave men and women of the Dunkirk evacuation for their bravery 70 years ago while under heavy bombardment from the Nazis.

    There will never be enough gratitude that we can show them for what they did.

    The same may not be said for the activists on the convoy currently en route to Gaza*.”

    Don’t you fell like a fucking cunt now!

  77. richardmillett

    I am not happy when people are killed whichever side they are on. I certainly didn’t want or expect anything like this to happen.

    • Jew of conscience

      “I am not happy when people are killed whichever side they are on. I certainly didn’t want or expect anything like this to happen”.

      Don’t make me laugh Richard! They’re just empty words! While you’re blabering on, Palestinians, and now internationals are being murdered by Israeli goon squads. This is just another nail in Israel’s – and Ahava’s – coffin.

      Golda Meir, David Ben Gurian, Menachem Begin, etc are all ‘good Zionists’ (dead). I cannot wait unilt til Peres and Netanyahu will also be ‘good Zionists’.

      Zionism is a political cesspool and what happened yesterday proved it.

      • richardmillett

        Jew of conscience, irrespective of yesterday’s tragic events i think you misunderstand the essence of zionism which is the desire for jewish self-determination in their ancient homeland. What have you got against that that you haven’t got against english, french, american, australian nationalism, for example?

  78. Fuck ‘em, I say. Our soldiers have been lynched by such barbarians before:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2000_Ramallah_lynching

    Anyway, God bless our brave soldiers.

  79. Richard:

    There clearly are two sides to the recent developments in the flotilla saga but we’re unlikely to ever really know what happened: a war of misinformation and disinformation has now been started by both sides.

    Nothing good can come out of this…

    O/T: What is it with the Mike’s and Michael’s of this blog and their homophobia? Don’t these people understand that complaining about one form of racism doesn’t give them the right to be racist towards another group? Or do they, as real racists always do, believe the object of their racism ‘deserves’ it?

  80. Pleased you weren’t on board, Gert . . . otherwise I might never have got to have that ice cream with you in Bridlington.

  81. Gerty's Mate

    Yeah
    If you ask me that Golman bloke’s hiding something.

  82. Michael Goldman

    Gert
    In the same way that I will defend the gay boys right to be gay, I will also defend the homophobe’s (such as Mike) right to be homophobic and obviously the Belgians right to be paedophilic.

  83. Gerty's Mate

    Goldman
    You just watch what you’re saying about my mate Gerty.

  84. “Gestapo” Gert will love this . . .

    http://melchettmike.wordpress.com/2009/06/12/vot-do-you-mean-gay-like-happy/

    And I believe the subsequent comments show both Michaels to have impeccable anti-homophobic credentials!

  85. Daniel Marks

    Gert,

    I’m not sure you’ll find it that interesting Gert, although the there’s an interesting discussion taking place on the same excellent blog involving a character called Greg, who views are similar to yours, and is in need of some intelligent help in formulating his position.

    Until such assistance is forthcoming, maybe you could lend a hand?

    Mike,

    It’s all a question of taste take exception to the term Gestapo Gert as besides everything else it trivializes what the real Gestapo did. Futhermore, let us not forget that the Belgian army bravely defended its country against the Nazis for 18 days (incidentally this compares to the three months that the Warsaw Ghetto uprising lasted for).

    I’d recommend restricting the discussion the issue in hand rather than broadening it to the character of your opponent, but if you have to stoop to the latter, successful use has been made of (apparent) Belgian national stereotypes – small Willy Wonker, being shit in bed, poor personal hygiene, good at maths etc.

    Goldman,

    “In the same way that I will defend the gay boys right to be gay, I will also defend the homophobe’s (such as Mike) right to be homophobic” -It’s not really the same thing, is it?

    The Talmud teaches us that someone who eats matzo on the day before Passover is like a man who has sex with his fiancée in his father-in-law’s house.

    Haim Nachman Biyalik claimed that he had tried them both, but they were not quite the same.

  86. richardmillett May 31, 2010 at 2:46 pm

    ‘I am not happy when people are killed whichever side they are on. I certainly didn’t want or expect anything like this to happen.’

    Equally unhappy or bit slanted one way or the other?

  87. richardmillett

    Mostly harmless, if you take out the politics and remember that someone has lost a child, then equally unhappy. What about you?

  88. Jew of conscience

    Jewish Self determination? It sounds very much like German self-determination!

    One little problem, the so-called “ancient homeland” you are referring to was already occupied by other people. All of the problems in Palestine aren’t caused by Judiasm nor Islam but by Zionism. Zionism is a political cancer that deserves to be wiped off the face of the earth, just like Nazism was. They’re two sides of the same coin. You people are all alike.

  89. richardmillett

    Jew of conscience, well every national self-determination can be compared to German self-determination, which is itself a valid self-determination. But you seem to only take against Jewish self-determination and not against any other form of self-determination.

    As for the “little problem”, it was occupied but not fully. There were 500,000 around 1890 people living there, including 25,000 Jews so you could say Jews occupied it also.

    Where is your rant against American nationalism (who pushed aside the Indians) and Australian nationalism and all the other nationalisms where people feel they have lost out to an extent. Why are you only concerned with Jewish self-determination?

  90. Daniel:

    “Futhermore, let us not forget that the Belgian army bravely defended its country against the Nazis for 18 days (incidentally this compares to the three months that the Warsaw Ghetto uprising lasted for).”

    This ridiculous ‘analogy’ shows you’re not really worth engaging with. Your world, I’ve noticed, is very much one of “them and us” with everyone neatly tucked in their own little box and with a stereotype at the ready to ‘characterise’ each ‘kind’.

    There are reasons why a handkerchief sized country like Belgium couldn’t stand up to the Wehrmacht. Hint: they are similar to why the BEF and their French allies were swept out of France and into Dunkirk. If you’re going to mock people historically, then at least try and get the basics right: it makes you look less like a sniggering 10 year old behind the bike shed.

    Michael:

    “In the same way that I will defend the gay boys right to be gay, I will also defend the homophobe’s (such as Mike) right to be homophobic”

    There is nothing ‘defensible’ about homophobia. Melchett’s ‘gay pride’ post show The Belcher once again as someone who has a very high opinion of himself yet is so totally full of shit. To mock the term ‘gay pride’ shows in itself a profound ignorance of the kind I expect from Sun, Mirror or Daily Hate Mail readers.

  91. What a sad little man you are, with your endless footie ‘analogies’, your blatant gallicphobia and rancid homophobia. Get a life, Melchett… And please stay where you are: Israel deserves f*ckwits like you.

    I guess Israel will now be about ready to recognise the Armenian genocide, eh?

  92. Daniel Marks

    “There are reasons why a handkerchief sized country like Belgium couldn’t stand up to the Wehrmacht.”

    – Yup, it makes you think, doesn’t it.

    How on earth could a few unarmed starving Jewish wretches in the Warsaw Ghetto stand up to the Wehtmacht and the SS for three months? Six times as long as the Belgian army.

    How could a tiny country with no real army and no air-force defend itself against five regular Arab armies in 1948? How?

    How can a tiny country, one quarter of a percent of the Middle East survive and blossom for 62 years?

    It makes you think, Gert. It makes you think.

  93. Gerty's Mate

    Gerty they’re all against you but I’m still here by your side.

  94. Don’t worry, Gestapo, I’m staying put. Except for my little visit to Bridlington, that is. Wouldn’t miss our little ice cream for anything. Do you like fudge on yours?

  95. Michael Goldman

    I wrote
    “In the same way that I will defend the gay boys right to be gay, I will also defend the homophobe’s (such as Mike) right to be homophobic and obviously the Belgians right to be paedophilic”

    Both Dan and Gert had problems with the homophobic bit but nobody complained about me calling the Belgians paedophiles.

  96. Daniel:

    It makes you think, Gert. It makes you think.

    Lemmethink. Because ‘Jewish is Best’? Because ‘Jews have G-d on their side’?

    Goldman:

    Both Dan and Gert had problems with the homophobic bit but nobody complained about me calling the Belgians paedophiles.

    That’s because for some reason I overlooked it. Thanks for being so candid about it.

    Richard must be so pleased to have some coreligionists here with such brilliant lines of reasoning.

  97. Melchett:

    You have my email address in my profile. You can contact me that way if you like. But I guarantee no answer that will satisfy you.

    I do not under any circumstances wish to meet you or ‘be met’ by you. Any beef you have with me can be settled here or by private email.

  98. Daniel Marks

    Gert,

    ‘Jewish is Best’? Because ‘Jews have G-d on their side’? – Gertie

    Those are hardly the words I’d have chosen, Gert. I might have said that right is might.

    By the way, don’t be afraid of Mike and his dogs. Their barks are worse than their bite.

    Am all out of cliches, so I’m off to bed.

  99. Daniel Marks

    FOOD FOR THOUGHT

    “…you’re not really worth engaging with. Your world, I’ve noticed, is very much one of “them and us” with everyone neatly tucked in their own little box and with a stereotype at the ready to ‘characterize’ each ‘kind’.” – Gertie

    Wow! What a cruel blow. And just as I had been thinking that he was beginning to learn to love me.

    At the risk of repeating myself it was you mate who, in an early posting, raised the subject of Belgian stereotypes. Believe me, until that moment I had no idea about your little Willy Wonkers etc.

    Anyway, I have said that I will not discuss the subject again and you won’t drag me back there. Once again I refer readers to the very excellent site of the highly respected Belgian Anti Defamation Institute, of which Gert has never denied being an active member.

    http://www.goodnewsforliberaldemocracy.org/belgianantidefamationinstitute/

    I would, however, raise the interesting question as to whether it was exactly some kind of Belgian national Small Penis Syndrome (SPS) that was responsible statements such as:

    “There are reasons why a handkerchief sized country like Belgium couldn’t stand up to the Wehrmacht”

    One doesn’t have to be Sigmund Freud to guess to what Gert is subconsciously alluding when he talks about his inabilty to function as a man because of his:

    “…handkerchief sized country..”

    Read also:
    http://www.majorityrights.com/images/uploads/penis_size.pdf

    I’ve also noticed that while Gert will engage almost anyone on any topic, never seeing his ignorance as a barrier, this topic he mysteriously “avoids”. Wonder why. It makes you think.

  100. Daniel Marks

    “…it makes you look less like a sniggering 10 year old behind the bike shed.”

    – Wow, that’s a Freudian slip if ever I heard one!
    What happened to 10-year-old Gert behind the bike shed?

    Let it all out Gert, we’re listening.

  101. Daniel:

    I’ve also noticed that while Gert will engage almost anyone on any topic, never seeing his ignorance as a barrier, this topic he mysteriously “avoids”. Wonder why. It makes you think.

    Daniel, Daniel, Daniel. We all know Anglo-Saxons have a bit of thing with toilet humour, if I was an armchair psychologist I’d posit something may have gone wrong in the apparently very formative potty training. And if a see another Friday or Saturday night reveler bear his/her inebriated bottom, I might just treat the object like the football it resembles. You however seem intent on taking the biscuit.

    Is the size of anyone’s genitalia somehow relevant, funny, or related to the subject of the flotillas (it really has become a tale of two flotillas now, hasn’t it? Slightly accidentally poor choice of title by luckless Richard here)?

    If I told you the size of my pecker doesn’t easily allow it to remain inside its barracks, would you be impressed? No, but it’ll give something else to be amused about, I guess. They do say a child’s hand is easily filled…

  102. Gerty's Mate

    I for one can vouch that Gerty has nothing to be ashamed of.
    A man and a half is my Gert.

  103. Daniel Marks

    Gert,

    What exactly is the nature of your relationship with “Gert’s Mate”?

  104. Daniel and Gestapo, your interpretations of the “festoon” would be hugely appreciated . . .

    http://melchettmike.wordpress.com/2009/06/12/vot-do-you-mean-gay-like-happy/#comment-5694

  105. Gerty's Mate

    Don’t tell him Gert !!!

  106. talk is cheap….. its six of one and half a dozen of the other… how did this discussion go from dunkirk to the size of somebodys tool… ha ha ha im laughing my ass off