No Respect for George

George Galloway who was defeated in Poplar and Limehouse

The British general election produced a mixed night for those who trade on anti-Israel rhetoric. George Galloways’s political career seems to have been finally ended when the Respect Part MP lost his fight with Labour’s Jim Fitzpatrick. Respect’s other two parliamentary candidates also failed to make it to Parliament.

Gerald Kaufman (Labour), who said that right-wing millionaire Jews controlled the Conservative Party, was convincingly re-elected while Martin Linton (Labour), who has spoken of Israel’s “long tentacles” which fund the British electoral system, lost his seat to the Conservatives.

The fascist BNP failed to get an MP elected but the Green Party succeeded in getting its first ever MP when its leader, Caroline Lucas, won in Brighton. The Green Party supports the campaign of boycott, divestment and sanctions against Israel.

One of the closest contests was in London in the district of Hampstead and Kilburn where Oscar-winning actress Glenda Jackson, another fierce critic of Israel, won by just 42 votes, out of the 52,822 cast there.

The Muslim Public Affairs Committee seems to have failed in its “Zionist” decapitation strategy as many Israel-friendly politicians succeeded. Lee Scott (Conservative) and Louise Ellman (Labour) were re-elected and Luciana Berger (Labour) and Robert Halfon (Conservative) became MPs for the first time.

Andrew Dismore (Labour), a strong Israel supporter who was targeted by MPAC, lost his seat to Matthew Offord (Conservative). MPAC called this a “success” although, ironically, Offord himself can be considered a “Zionist” and will probably be similarly targeted by MPAC next time.

Richard Harringon, Chairman of the Conservative Friends of Israel, got elected in Watford.

But the biggest winners may be the anti-Israel Liberal Democrats whose leader, Nick Clegg, called for the banning of the sale of arms to Israel during Cast Lead.

Incredibly, the Lib Dems. were expected to substantially increase their intake of MPs after the first two televised leaders’ debates but Clegg faltered in the third and final debate. The public may not have liked his policies on giving an amnesty to some one million illegal immigrants and on taking Britain into the Euro, especially with the death and destruction in Athens, which is in the Euro, being broadcast on our screens leading up to the election.

None of the three main parties ended up with an overall majority of over 326 seats. The Conservatives now have 306 (up 97), Labour has 258 (down 91) and the Lib Dems. have 57 (down five).

The Lib Dems. are keen to do a deal to give them power for the first time in some 80 years and have given the Conservatives, as the largest party, the first opportunity to consider this possibility. The Conservatives in turn said they would be willing to work with the Lib Dems. to try to implement much of the Conservative manifesto. This will involve easy concessions on tax but the Lib Dems. will also demand major reform of the electoral system, possibly proportional representation, which is something the Conservatives will not concede.

In the meantime Gordon Brown is waiting in the wings, clinging on as Prime Minister, hoping that the Conservatives and the Lib Dems. will fail to agree so that the Lib Dems. will then come knocking on his door, where proportional representation is more of a possibility.

The financial markets have been crashing leading up to, and since, the election. The stock market is heavily down, as is the pound against the dollar. The politicians will need to resolve their differences quickly in order to restore the semblance of stability.

More critically for Israel is the possible concession of some Lib Dems. now taking up cabinet positions which could impact negatively on British-Israeli relations. David Cameron himself has described east Jerusalem as “occupied” and Labour has been generally unsupportive of Israel on the Dubai assassination of Hamas terrorist al-Mabhouh and on the Goldstone Report.

The areas of London with major numbers of Jewish voters, including the four voting districts of Finchley and Golders Green, Hendon, Chipping Barnet and Ruislip, Northwood and Pinner all returned Conservative MPs. Many British Jews might well have voted this way out of concern for the policies of Labour and the Lib Dems. on Israel, while the Conservatives are seen as generally more sympathetic to Israel’s situation.

The Conservatives will clamp down more firmly on Islamic radicalism and will seek to ban Hizb ut Tahrir, but what Jewish voters did not reckon on is that by voting Conservative they could get the Lib Dems. as part of the package.

There is the need for political stability in Britain as quickly as possible to tackle the huge budget deficit. But as the parties hammer out agreement in private most British Jews hope it will not be at the expense of Israel.

This article appeared in the Jerusalem Post on 10th May

83 responses to “No Respect for George

  1. Galloway is a self serving individual, who is very sharp and knows how to press the buttons of his supporters.

    When you think of Galloway remember his cat impressions on Big Brother, and where did the fee go?

  2. Here’s what Nick ‘Bogeyman of Israel’ Clegg told Ha’aretz very recently:

    “As to the accusations that I am hostile to Israel, my actions prove the opposite. I have always sharply opposed various efforts to impose academic and cultural sanctions on Israel. I am also one of those who said that Britain should not have participated in the Durban 2 conference when it became clear that it would turn into an anti-Israel event.”

    “I have tremendous admiration for the state of Israel and its people. When I visited, I was once again exposed to the genius of this nation, which has managed to maintain a democratic regime and a thriving and open economy, despite its existence under a constant threat. This is a great achievement.

    But we must distinguish clearly between the Israeli and the Jewish people on the one hand, and certain actions of the Israeli government on the other. If I have criticism it is focused solely on these actions. I plan to continue to voice my thoughts, which stem from honest and legitimate concern, and in my estimation that the long term interests of the people of Israel are not being met properly at this time.”

    Clegg rejects speaking to Hamas “as long as Hamas continues to nurture an extremist ideology of violence and terror. I totally understand the feelings of the residents of Sderot who are under constant missile attacks that are meant to impose terror. My condemnations of Hamas have always been clear and unequivocal, and the same is true of my attitude toward the fact that Israel has the full right to defend its inhabitants. That is the role of every country and every government.

    “However,” he adds, “I don’t understand the Israeli strategy regarding Gaza. The imposition of the siege against 1.5 million people, many of them young people who become increasingly itter, and the disproportionate use of force.
    Operation Cast Lead did of course bring about a certain neutralization of the attackers and the missile attacks ¬ but did it reduce the bitterness prevailing between the peoples, did it weaken Hamas’ position, and did it guarantee Israel’s long-term security interests? I’m not at all certain.”

    Clegg comes out against Israel’s “continued development of the illegal settlements,” he welcomes the approaching proximity talks between Israel and the Palestinian Authority, and as far as Hamas is concerned, he says: “The only way to deal with Hamas is to work to split the organization between the extremists who want to destroy the peace process and those who are willing over the long term to recognize Israel and to work to find a solution in a non-violent manner.”

    Clegg rejects out of hand the claim that the British public is today the most “anti-Israel” in Europe.

    If the leader of a British party condemned to the eternal role of political bronze were to make such ‘criticisms’ of a country other than Israel they wouldn’t even make it into a newspaper. But when a nobody like Nick Clegg utters these carefully chosen comments the likes of Richard Millett shudder and “British Jews hope it will not be at the expense of Israel.” It goes to show the level of paranoia surrounding all things Israeli…

    Personally If I was forced to chose between ‘Zionist *rs*licker’ and ‘critic of Israel’ as a fitting epithet for Clegg, the former would win out every time. Reality lies somewhere in the middle, of course…

  3. Blacklisted Dictator

    Richard,

    Interesting that Offord won Hendon by only a handful of votes. It was a closer run thing that the bookies predicted. Offord was quoted at 1-5.

    My guess is that there will be a minority Conservative government. I think that Clegg might be prepared to forego PR but his party won’t allow him to. As a result, I have my doubts about whether a Lib-Con coalition will emerge from the talks.

    I don’t think that a Lib-Lab pact is practical since the two parties together do not hold a majority of seats. And of course Brown is tickets.

  4. Richard Tebboth

    Thank you Richard for your insightful analysis.
    The hung state provides much opportunity for “Jaw, Jaw”.
    The Conservatives have also declared a dedication to “Evidence-based policy” which should also apply in the Middle East.

  5. richardmillett

    Sorry, Gert, but what is it about wanting to disarm Israel while its citizens are under bombardment by Hamas that makes Clegg an *rse* licker?

    What you have here is the perfect example of Clegg covering his own *rs* with the Jewish community.

    And he disingenuously tries to segregate the Israeli government from its citizens, when it is the citizens that vote for a government.

    He would never try to patronise British citizens in the same way, but with Israel it’s a good way for him to try to make political advantage.

    His call for disarming Israel says it all.

  6. Screw “Gorgeous” George and “Ghastly” Gert, but . . . congratulations on promotion, Leeds United!!

    Arguably the greatest club side – under the Don – that Britain has produced (Liverpool from Shankly to Dalglish is the only one that comes close), Leeds are now only two leagues below where it truly belongs . . . and it surely won’t be long before we are once again mixing it with the likes of Barcelona, Juventus and Real Madrid.

    It would be nice to think that the old misanthrope Ken Bates will soon snuff it, or be bought out by some rich Arabs (in view of Leeds’ tendency to commit suicide, the only ones interested in recent years were Hamas!)

    Anyway, well done, Leeds. And, Jermaine Beckford, thank you for the memories (especially this one)

    Marching on together!

  7. Richard, I’m gonna give you the benefit of the doubt, the choice being between believing you’re:

    a. a cynical hypocrite who loves twisting someone’s words to further one’s own argument,

    b. a hypochondriac who tends to talk himself into a depression.

    For now I’ll settle for b. As regards “wanting to disarm Israel while its citizens are under bombardment by Hamas”, here’s what he wrote in the Grauniad:

    Of course, Israel has every right to defend itself. It is difficult to imagine what it must be like to live with the constant threat of rocket attacks from a movement which espouses terrorist violence and denies Israel’s right to exist. But Israel’s approach is self-defeating: the overwhelming use of force, the unacceptable loss of civilian lives, is radicalising moderate opinion among Palestinians and throughout the Arab world. Anger in the West Bank will make it virtually impossible for Mahmoud Abbas, the Palestinian Authority president, to continue to talk to Israeli ministers.

    Brown must stop sitting on his hands. He must condemn unambiguously Israel’s tactics, just as he has rightly condemned Hamas’s rocket attacks. Then he must lead the EU into using its economic and diplomatic leverage in the region to broker peace. The EU is by far Israel’s biggest export market, and by far the biggest donor to the Palestinians. It must immediately suspend the proposed new cooperation agreement with Israel until things change in Gaza, and apply tough conditions on any long-term assistance to the Palestinian community.

    Brown must also halt Britain’s arms exports to Israel, and persuade our EU counterparts to do the same. The government’s own figures show Britain is selling more and more weapons to Israel, despite the questions about the country’s use of force. In 2007, our government approved £6m of arms exports. In 2008, it licensed sales 12 times as fast: £20m in the first three months alone.

    Richard, where’s the talk of disarming Israel? Clegg’s calling for a halt in British arms exports to Israel (in all likelihood intended as a temporary measure anyway), that’s very different from calling for disarmament. Note that he isn’t opposed to Israel’s right to self defense.

    And he disingenuously tries to segregate the Israeli government from its citizens, when it is the citizens that vote for a government.

    Wow. What about the many citizens that didn’t vote for the current government? Those that vehemently oppose it? There aren’t enough of them but they’re simply to be lumped in together with the majority? All individuals are responsible for their government’s actions, because ‘they voted for it’? What a twisted view on democracy. Or even citizenry… Or people…

  8. Put that in your pipe and smoke it George you conceited wanker. Made my bloody day. Bet that wiped the smile off his mug. Just proves that even most fanatic nutjobs have enough self respect to not want him representing them. Speaks volumes really.

    Who’s that I hear yapping in the background…? Oh Gert is that you? What’s with the deeply racist “Boycott Israel” slogan on your bog? So you’re in favour of collective punishment are you? Make your bloody mind up! I think if the Nazi’s were still around today, you’d do them proud! They started with boycotts as well!! So whilst it lacks originality and creative thinking, it was fairly effective for them so who knows where it could get you? Give it a whirl!

    Mind you, on that note, if they were still around today, I probably wouldn’t be sat here typing this and you would seriously lack purpose in life so we’re all better off this way after all. I think this is what the Americans call “a win win situation”. You know what they’re like with their jargon. I learnt a new one today! The latest one is when doing a presentation is to ensure the audience know what the “take home values” are. Ha ha!! How full of nationalistic shit am I? Very full of it. Well, I must say, in my humble opinion, the world is not quite flat just yet so it’s best we stop pretending it is and call a spade a spade. Gert, I am of the opinion that you could well be a spade.

  9. Michael Cohen

    George Galloway is probably going to stand for election as Mayor of Tower Hamlets

  10. richardmillett

    Gert, i apologise profusely. I admit that Clegg did not use the word “disarm” but i submit that that is very similar to “calling for a halt in British arms exports to Israel”. If every country stopped supplying Israel, it would be the end of Israel eventually. So all his pretty words are just window dressing for his ferociously anti-Israel party. His party is full of anti-Israel politicians: himself, Teather, Campbell, Tonge, Chris Davies, Ed Davey, Steele and it’s not that big a party!

    He was against the war in Iraq but i didn’t see him calling for a halt in arms exports to Britain. In my book that is the sign of a hypocrite.

  11. Daniel Marks

    So how many of you Jews (or Belgians) in your respective exiles can boast that the local supermarket is making international headlines?

    http://www.jpost.com/MiddleEast/Article.aspx?id=174959

    Well, I can. My local “Rami Levi”, where my good wife and I buy veg on Tuesday, meat on Wednesdays and almost everything on Fridays is now featuring prominently in the media as the Palestinian Authority is openly threatening any of their own brothers who dare to purchase their groceries with us.

    I had noticed more and more “cousins” with trolleys alongside mine but was quite indifferent to the matter.

    Now, however, as the PA attempts to impose apartheid in my country and forbid Jews and Arabs to shop together I shall not hold my peace. I am ashamed to think that my country has signed international agreements and regularly transfers money, thus supporting, a regime that is not only sexist towards its women and corrupt towards its poor but now has decided to discriminate against peaceful, innocent civilians just because they’re Arabs.

    How can the PA expect the rest of the world to respect their people if they won’t even respect them themselves? Can’t a grown adult choose where to buy his bread in 2010?

    From tomorrow I shall be wearing a typical Arab headdress when I go shopping at Rami Levi. I shall smoke Camel cigarettes, call my son Mahmud and my wife Fatima. I shall also buy more humus than usual and swear at both of them in Arabic if they object.

    No man is an island, and if an Arab is being discriminated against, then I too shall be an Arab!

    Ya Salaam!

  12. Richard:

    So all his pretty words are just window dressing for his ferociously anti-Israel party

    Well yeah: in your book who hasn’t sworn blind allegiance to the Zionist Entity is “ferociously anti-Israel”…

    He was against the war in Iraq but i didn’t see him calling for a halt in arms exports to Britain. In my book that is the sign of a hypocrite.

    Who on Earth would a British politician ask to stop exporting arms to Britain??? No, the LibDems took a correct position on the War. There was no need to stop exporting arms to Britain (we’d all be better off without importing/exporting arms of course, with exception of the fat cats that make loads of blood money from their tainted trade), arms or not it would have been possible to stay out of the Meircans’ umpteenth ill-fated military adventure.

  13. Daniel M.:

    Nothing like a Zionist with his back against the wall for trying to turn the tables, eh?

    Apartheid, my *rse. Genuine boycott of points-of-sale in the West Bank you mean, something that surprisingly they haven’t called for long before now.

    Can’t a grown adult choose where to buy his bread in 2010?

    Pull everything completely out of context and end up with unintelligible drivel. But you probably think it’s clever. Or funny. It’s neither.

  14. Daniel Marks

    Hi Gert,

    So explain to me in an intelligible, contextual way why my Palestinean neighbors are being threatened what will happen to them if they prefer to buy at Rami Levi.

    If the Palestineans in question wanted to “boycott” Rami Levi, they’d do so without being bullied.

    What kind of a boycott is it when you have to threaten? Do you think it is legitimate to threaten innocent people in order to enforce it?

    I have no objection to Arabs choosing not to buy from Jews (or visa versa) but I do object to them being told “We know who you are!”

    Honestly Gert. If we were preventing Arabs from entering our supermarkets, wouldn’t you be calling that apartheid or worse?

    Why is it any better because the Fatah is doing it?

  15. Daniel M.:

    Firstly, the article is from the J’Post, ferbarnaclessake, these people are very good at slightly changing the story to make things look a hell of a lot worse, a bit like Richard and his changing ‘calling for an arms embargo’ to ‘disarming’ and then claiming there’s not much difference.

    Here’s what the article claims:

    Palestinian Authority Economy Minister Hassan Abu Libdeh warned Palestinians on Thursday against shopping at Rami Levy supermarkets in the West Bank.

    Thousands of Palestinians converge every day on the Rami Levy supermarkets at Sha’ar Binyamin and Mishor Adumim, the only two branches in the West Bank. The two stores also employ dozens of Palestinians.

    This was the first threat of its kind issued by the PA against Palestinians who visited the Israeli supermarkets, which are named after their founder.

    It seems quite likely that instead of ‘warning’ these Palestinians were advised or asked not to buy any good at said supermarket, in which case there was no ‘threat’.

    Honestly Gert. If we were preventing Arabs from entering our supermarkets, wouldn’t you be calling that apartheid or worse?

    No, I wouldn’t because of the context: Israelis preventing Palestinians from using ‘Israeli only’ roads for instance is Apartheid, Palestinians calling on other Palestinians not to buy Israeli goods (specifically in territory militarily occupied by Israelis) is simply boycott. They are not comparable.

    If I lived under occupation I would do the same and urge my fellow men to do the same. If the occupiers had been Nazis would you claim I was calling for Apartheid?

    The problem with your reasoning is that you start off from the premise that the occupation doesn’t exist, doesn’t matter or is normal. It is not: the occupation changes everything.

  16. Love2love:

    I will only address one point:

    Who’s that I hear yapping in the background…? Oh Gert is that you? What’s with the deeply racist “Boycott Israel” slogan on your bog? So you’re in favour of collective punishment are you? Make your bloody mind up! I think if the Nazi’s were still around today, you’d do them proud! They started with boycotts as well!!

    As well you know (if you engaged brain before keyboard) your Nazi-thingy doesn’t fly and isn’t even worth calling an analogy.

    Firstly, the goal of BDS is completely different from the German boycott of Jewish businesses. The goal of BDS is to try and force the Israeli government to rethink its strategy a propos settlements, the OT and the peace process. The Nazi goal was altogether completely different, no comparison possible.

    Secondly, BDS targets businesses regardless of whether they’re Jewish owned, whether Jews are employed by them or buy products or services from them or not. The only criterion that makes a company or business eligible for being targeted by BDS is a connection to the OT and settlement activity. Hence the boycott of AHAVA London (which is, I believe, owned and run by British Jews) but equally (and more importantly) Veolia which isn’t Jewish.

    You may have a moot point on ‘collective punishment’ but considering that BDS is completely non-violent and that a hyper nationalist like probably didn’t object to the violent collective punishment of Gaza, your point is indeed very weak.

    What’s funny about your Nazi invocation is that you’d be among the first to cry wolf when anyone mentioned the Holocaust industry (the use of Holocaust/Nazi invocations to serve a political, Zionist goal)!

  17. richardmillett

    Gert, there is a very fine line between not supplying weapons to someone and disarming them. How long before the ammo. runs out? Israel would be effectively disarmed when it does. But of course you take comments, like those of your new hero Nick, literally when it suits you.

    As for the BDS this is a boycott of Israel per se. It has nothing to do with occupation. The boycotters want the end of Israel, not just the occupation. They are self-confessed anti-Zionist activists.

    Take a look at the war on want youtube video on my blog. As you will see the activists “presume” the produce is from settlements. They are not so sure. So where you actually try to discriminate between settlement produce and Israeli produce, they aren’t so bothered.

  18. Daniel Marks

    “Abu Libdeh said in an interview with the local Al-Watan TV station that the PA knew the names of individuals and families who shop in the Rami Levy stores.” –

    Okay Gert you interpreted this as meaning:

    It seems quite likely that instead of ‘warning’ these Palestinians were advised or asked not to buy any good at said supermarket, in which case there was no ‘threat’.

    If he was just advising them, what was the significance of his telling them that he knew their names? What is the meaning of this statement?

    To my mind you are either incredibly naïve about what “we know your names” means in the Middle East or you understand that this is the PA threatening its own people, but make believe that you don’t – we call that hypocrisy.

    I think we all understand exactly what this is about. The PA is trying to organize an international boycott on products sold in Judea and Samaria and feels humiliated that its own people carry on buying Israeli products.
    “..these Palestinians were advised or asked not to buy any good at said supermarket..” – Nobody is being advised or asked. Products found in Palestinian shops that were produced in Judea and Samaria have been confiscated and burned and shopkeepers punished.

    Incidentally, not all Palestinians purchase our products and I have tremendous admiration for those who don’t. They are men of principle, not my principle but they still earn my respect.

    Furthermore, I’m sure that those who wish to purchase our products are not doing so in order to support Jewish settlement in Judea and Samaria. They’re just simple people, like me, looking to buy food for their families. They’ve been used and abused as political pawns in the chess game that their leaders are playing for long enough. Israel should not let the PA impose apartheid within Israel. I say it again, if any country in the world were to refuse to let Arabs buy from supermarkets, we would all rightly condemn it. The fact the PA are doing it to their own people makes it not only worthy of condemnation but of disgust.

    If there’s one thing I’m sure about, nobody is telling Abu Libdeh’s chauffeur where to do his shopping.

    Finally, this is nothing to do with “context”. There is no correct or moral or ethical context in which we prevent people from buying food for their children with money that they have earned, wherever they want.

    They are adult human beings and deserve to be treated as such.

  19. richardmillett

    “the article is from the J’Post, ferbarnaclessake,”

    Gert should check the journalist before putting fingers to keyboard next time.

  20. Gamil Elias

    Yes, Daniel but Gert has said:

    “The problem with your reasoning is that you start off from the premise that the occupation doesn’t exist, doesn’t matter or is normal. It is not: the occupation changes everything.”

    It is truthfull. You have occupation in Palestine so we can do whatever we are wanting and you can’t say nothing!

  21. Daniel Marks

    I suppose a word should be said about the line of reasoning which basically says that if someone is not happy with his plight, then normal rules of human behavior cease to exist and he can do what he likes:

    “The problem with your reasoning is that you start off from the premise that the occupation doesn’t exist, doesn’t matter or is normal. It is not: the occupation changes everything.”

    So far, I’ve avoided the “occupation” issue. It’s so boring and chewed over, but I guess I have no choice. Let’s make it short and non-controversial:

    The areas under discussion were never a Palestinian state and hadn’t been a Jewish state for 2,000 years. They went from being part of the Ottoman Empire to part of the British Mandate, according to partition they should have become part of an Arab state but that was rejected by the Arabs. Up until this time there were Moslems, Jews and even some Christians living in these areas.

    As a result of the 1948 war these areas were annexed by Jordan. An annexation that basically was unrecognized, except by Pakistan and maybe England. From 1948-1967 no Jews lived there, nor were they allowed to.
    When Jordan launched a war of aggression in 1967 Jordan lost these areas and today their status is disputed. I’m trying hard to use language that is acceptable to everyone.
    What the final status of these lands or their Jewish or Arab populations will be we have no idea at the moment. That’s what negotiations are for. We think it all belongs to us, they think it all belongs to them. We both think that we’re 100% right and we both acknowledge that the other side thinks so too. Incidentally, both “settlers” and Palestinians are convinced that the Israeli government is on the other guy’s side.

    That’s it. What has any of that to do with telling a Palestinian housewife where she should do her shopping?

    Rami Levi is doing fine and won’t become much richer, than he already is, because Palestinians prefer his supermarket to their local. Nor does he share his wealth (unfortunately) with us settlers. The only people who are suffering here are Palestinians.

    We’ve all seen Fatah supporters being machine-gunned in fields and thrown off buildings by the Hamas. We’ve seen public executions and the desecration of their corpses. We’ve seen Palestinian playgrounds used as missile launching pads, while the kids are still there and we’ve seen other children being sent to kill themselves for a cause they’re too young to fully comprehend.

    No, Gert, the occupation doesn’t “change everything” – it certainly doesn’t change our responsibility to act as human beings. France was under occupation as was most of Europe. Japan and Germany have been under occupation too. Perhaps the Native Americans of America see themselves under occupation and maybe some barmy US confederates still yearn for the day when the South will rise again.
    Maybe some Welsh or Scottish yearn for sovereignty as well. Each case is unique and obviously they can’t be compared in every way.

    None of this negates civilian leadership’s responsibility to look after its people with care and compassion. On the contrary, in “hard times” the PA should be thinking of ways to put more bread on the proverbial Palestinian table not to destroy it.

  22. Daniel:

    No, Gert, the occupation doesn’t “change everything” – it certainly doesn’t change our responsibility to act as human beings.

    Here’s a man who lives in a West Bank settlement lecturing those who want to act against the Occupation. It really does sound a bit like the Kamp Kommandant lecturing the elder inmates that they have a responsibility towards their fellow inmates.

    Daniel, for all your faux-concern for ordinary Palestinians, really all that bothers you here is that a Jewish Zionist business is being targeted.

  23. Richard:

    Gert should check the journalist before putting fingers to keyboard next time.

    Yeah, KHALED ABU TOAMEH…

    HAHAHAHAHAAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHHHAHAHAHAHAHAH…

    The man who, if I was was Palestinian, I would gladly put the bullet between both eyes with my own gun. A turncoat. You get them everywhere. As long as he realises that sleeping with the enemy pays but there’s always a price to pay too…

    Honestly, the pair of you and your fake moral indignation , all the while supporting a morally bankrupt ideology…

  24. Richard:

    Gert, there is a very fine line between not supplying weapons to someone and disarming them. How long before the ammo. runs out?

    Israel is a net exporter of arms. It has an extensive arms industry which is probably large enough to ‘go it alone’ when the going gets tough. It certainly has enough arms manufacturing capability to carry out a ‘monthly Cast Lead’ in perpetuity if it wanted to.

    The British people have a right to know that some of the arms supplied to Israel may be used to occupy another people, sustain the further colonisation of Palestinian lands and carry out follies a la Cast Lead. Thankfully for the Zionist Entity the British public remains largely in a deep coma a propos what goes on there…

  25. Daniel M.:

    Regarding your ‘the WB is disputed’ spiel, here’s a few simple questions.

    Suppose your wettest of wet dreams is to be realised and all of ‘Judea and Samaria’ is incorporated into Greater Israel, what then is to become of the Palestinians you claim to care about?

    Transfer to ‘Arabia’? Made citizens of Israel? Allowed to stay but without status as citizens? Some rights (like the right to shop in Israeli supermarkets – LOL) but not the full package?

    Because, Daniel, for those who really dream of an all-Israeli Palestine, these are the real tough questions. When answered wrongly they could lead to Israel’s self-immolation…

    You’ve inadvertently answered a question (one I hadn’t even asked), now be fair and complete the questionnaire…

  26. richardmillett

    Proves there isn’t a reasonable bone in your body, Gert, when you, quite literally, wish to shoot the messenger.

  27. Proves there isn’t a reasonable bone in your body, Gert, when you, quite literally, wish to shoot the messenger.

    Proves you don’t know what you’re talking about, Richard, when you, quite literally, accept the words of a collaborator as the Gospel truth.

    Like a few other Palestinian turncoats, Toameh is the darling of some hardcore Meircan Zionists (usually horrid racists and Islamophobes), which he keeps happy with chickenfeed. I’ve no problem criticism of Palestinians and not with internal critics either. But Toameh is simply a traitor and I use that word very, very rarely. He’ll get his comeuppance.

  28. modernityblog

    Richard,

    Surely this is what I’ve said all along ?

    The Gerts of the world are not really interested in the Palestinians as people, evidenced by the fact *he& decides who is isn’t a traitor.

    And what might happen to them?

    He believes in capital punishment, shooting people in the head, that’s the fascist way.

    Notice you won’t hear one word of criticism for the Hamas leaders who impoverish and force Palestinians into violence.

    No, not a word.

    The Gerts of the world are not interested in any reasoned compromise, or long-term political solution, it is more about exercising their own neurosis and projections.

  29. modernityblog

    ops, evidenced by the fact *he* decides who is or isn’t a traitor.

  30. richardmillett

    Well, lucky Toameh, doesn’t live in Gaza as we know what happens to “traitors” there.

    Gert, you have no interest in listening to anyone, like Toameh, who lives what is happening in Israel/Palestine slightly more than you do living in Bridlington. For you, if someone criticise the Palestinians they are “traitors”.

    I, stupidly, gave you the benefit of the doubt that you might have a modicum of reasonableness in you.

  31. Daniel Marks

    Gert,
    There’s a wafer thin layer of humanity or Liberalism that many (not all) anti-Semites use to cover their filth. They often call it anti-Zionism. Their only problem is that if you scratch them there’s often a monster hiding there.

    Unable to further justify the PA’s bullying its own people. Unable to explain why it’s legitimate for the West Bank to be the only place in the world where hungry Arabs aren’t allowed to enter supermarkets, unable to justify the unjustifiable you fall back on a bit of good old-fashioned anti-Semitism. You compare the Jew to the people who slaughtered 6,000,000 of his brothers:

    “It really does sound a bit like the Kamp Kommandant lecturing the elder inmates..”

    For any readers who still haven’t understood, I am being compared to the Kommandant of a Nazi death camp.

    I’ve already explained it but this is called moral equivalence, the creation of a world where good or bad no longer exist. In this world as Jew in the Warsaw Ghetto might be compared to the Nazi killing him, after all they both have guns.

    My great-grandfather after whom I am named, Gert, was murdered by a Kamp Kommandant, but in your world I am to be compared to his murderer.

    If Daniel Marks can be compared to a Kamp Kommandant, then obviously the Nazis weren’t so bad after all – how comforting for those who shares their perverted dreams but don’t want to feel like “baddies”. Incidentally, Hitler rarely spoke publicly about the need to annihilate world Jewry. He just sent his brown shirts to stop good Germans from shopping at Jewish shops. He never spoke about gas chambers, he just said he wanted Germany to be free of Jews. Sounds familiar?

    I couldn’t give a damn about Rami Levi. He’s a self made multi-millionaire now opening in Tel Aviv too. Do you really think the money he makes from lower middle-class hard working Palestinian families, mostly filling their trolleys with basic items that are cheaper than in their shops like sugar, flour and chicken are going to make any difference to his life? Do you think I’d care if it did?

    So we return to my original point. Why not just leave people alone to let people buy what they want where they want? Why bully them? Why tell them that you “know who they are”? Why not afford these people the same respect that we afford ourselves?

    Finally, Gert, in your own crude way you ask me about the final status of Judea and Samaria. Are you asking me what I would like, ideally speaking, to happen? Or are you asking me what I realistically think will happen?

    Tell me in a polite way and I’ll be happy to answer your question.

    All the best,

  32. Gerty's Mate

    Daniel

    “Abu Libdeh said in an interview with the local Al-Watan TV station that the PA knew the names of individuals and families who shop in the Rami Levy stores.” –

    Do you really believe that this is a threat?
    If it was the Rami Levi store who claimed the same you would no doubt believe that in is a marketing campaign, but because it is a P.A statement you immediately assume it is a threat.

    Can you really be sure that the P.A isn’t planning a lottery involving all those who shop at Rami Levi, only to distribute Tupperware and cudly toys to the winners?!

  33. Daniel Marks

    I concede that point to Gerty’s mate. Maybe I was jumping to conclusions.

    I guess we’ll have to wait and see whether the Tupperware and cuddly toys are forthcoming. If they are I’ll acknowledge my mistake. If, however, there is no Tupperware and there are no cuddly toys, then you and your mate Gerty shall show similar intellectual honesty.

    Okay, I’m off to Rami Levi for my veg. You see I’m not an Arab. I’m one of the lucky ones who the PA criminals allow to buy there, and with a large variety of vegetables at one Shekel a kilo it would be a crime not to.

    If I see any brave Palestinians, who dare to defy Abu Libdeh, I’ll inquire about the Tupperware and the cuddly toys.

  34. Gamil Elias

    No Tupperware!

    No cuddly toys!

  35. Daniel Marks

    According to Wikipedia Khaled Abu Toameh ” is the West Bank and Gaza correspondent for the Jerusalem Post and U.S. News and World Report, and has been the Palestinian affairs producer for NBC News since 1988. His articles have appeared in The Sunday Times, Daily Express and many others.”

    In his typical humanitarian way, Gert says:

    “..if I was Palestinian, I would gladly put the bullet between both eyes with my own gun. A turncoat.”

    – Very macho for an armchair fanatic who probably wouldn’t know the difference between the barrel of his pistol and another similarly sized bit of Belgian piping.

    While Gert has decided that this journalist should be murdered in cold blood, it’s interesting to note that the Tehran Times is carrying his Rami Levi story today:

    http://www.tehrantimes.com/Index_view.asp?code=219000

    I guess that Iran’s leading daily newspaper sees Toameh’s reporting as more reliable than Gert does – or maybe the Tehran Times has sold out too.

    Those Iranian Zionist bastards!

  36. Modders:

    The Gerts of the world are not really interested in the Palestinians as people, evidenced by the fact *he& decides who is isn’t a traitor.

    … as opposed to you who on a whim decides who is and isn’t a ‘fascist’? You find yourself supporting a regime that is increasingly descending into a police state (as evidenced increasingly by some Israeli Left bloggers, see e.g. Coteret and Promised Land blog) with coalition elements that can only be described as fascistoid.

    On April 25th Max Ajl reported his own eyewitness account of the shooting of Bianca Zammit (an International) by the AOF. Her crime? Taking part in a completely peaceful demo (not a pebble or stone in sight), on PALESTINIAN land and venturing too close to the prison walls.

    Something like that happens in Iran and the world’s on fire. In Gaza? It doesn’t even make the news… Who here are the fascists, sonny?

    You, alleged centre Left, come here to support a deeply conservative supporter of Zion. Why? Because he’s Jewish. Nothing else.

    Keep making ‘We’re all Seismic Shock’ videos, that was REALLY entertaining! Imbecile…

    Notice you won’t hear one word of criticism for the Hamas leaders who impoverish and force Palestinians into violence.

    I have first hand evidence from a GAZAN that that simply doesn’t happen. What have you got? ‘Evidence’ from MEMRI? From the J’Post? From Khaled Toameh? From Hasbara’s Smearmachine (TM)?

  37. Richard:

    Well, lucky Toameh, doesn’t live in Gaza as we know what happens to “traitors” there.

    Well, we all know what happens to ‘Jewish traitors’ too, do we not? These people get dragged through the mud, spewed at, spewed out, excoriated and excommunicated. In some case banished or imprisoned for life. Careers ruined, livelihoods taken away, tenureships refused. Called ‘self-loathing Jews’, ‘self-hating Jews’, ‘bad Jews’, added to the Masada S.H.I.T. list. Do you want me to go on?

    The simple truth is that you and Modders find yourself on the wrong side of the argument and of history. As time will show you…

  38. Daniel M:

    While Gert has decided that this journalist should be murdered in cold blood, […]

    Try and be honest, the only reason you call Toameh a journalist is because he serves your purpose. That’s why from my perspective he is indeed a traitor to his own people.

    I politely asked you some simple questions, have the courtesy to answer them.

  39. modernityblog

    Gert,

    I have stated this all along, you are irrational, thus it is useless to argue with you.

    If you really, really wanted better for the Palestinians then naturally you would criticise, however mildly, the Hamas leadership.

    But you can’t, because you don’t give a toss about the Palestinians, you have a complete lack of empathy for them.

    You are more governed by your hatred of Israelis than any love of Palestinians.

    Shorter version, you are a fanatic, an irrational fanatic and the conflict plays to your neuroses, you don’t care about the participants.

  40. Oh, and Daniel, I didn’t compare you to a ‘Nazi death commandant’. I note however that you are very much part of the occupation and yet have the gall to to tell those who want to protest it and militate against it how to behave. It really is a bit like the jailer telling the jailed how to behave, ‘because it’s for their own good’. You see nothing contradictory in that? Must be that ‘moral clarity’ you’re referring to!

    You would do better not to see a Nazi analogy when none are made. If I had made such an analogy I would make it very explicit, trust me on that. Truth is that I loathe them.

    Are you asking me what I would like, ideally speaking, to happen? Or are you asking me what I realistically think will happen?

    Answer any way you see fit. Or both ways would be even better. Thanks.

  41. richardmillett

    “The simple truth is that you and Modders find yourself on the wrong side of the argument and of history.”

    Gert, I am not trying to be on the side of either argument, but just trying to find a way through to peace while meanwhile exposing all the hypocrisy.

    Meanwhile, you are the one who wants to put bullets into the foreheads of people you don’t approve of.

  42. Modders:

    You are more governed by your hatred of Israelis than any love of Palestinians.

    You just can’t help yourself, can you, ‘Mr Rational’?

    I’m not in this fight for love/hate of Palestinians or love/hate of Israelis. I’m in this fight because I see a gross injustice that’s been going on for a very long time and one in which the oppressors are held a hand above their heads by cowardly Western powers to serve their own Middle East interests.

    I have no problem with criticism of Hamas but I note there’s a sea of lies being peddled on the subject. I note also that Hamas’ decidedly changing attitude towards peace is being ignored completely by said powers, up to the point that a ‘non Zionist’ (my *rse), ‘independent’ (ditto) journalist like Millett simply pretended his nose was bleeding when I pointed out that there is considerable change in their well-publicised position and provided incontrovertible truth for that..

    Again, I haven’t got the slightest doubt about the fact that eventually we will talk to Hamas (we’re already doing it)… some 5 years too late. And all to preserve some convoluted pseudo ‘Enlightenment’ pseudo ‘values… What heroes we are!

  43. ‘proof’, not ‘truth’. My bad.

  44. Modders:

    You calling me a fanatic would really be at best pot and kettle. You and your buddies Concentric Crap and Vildechaye, later also Terry Glavin, set on me the moment you encountered me. You’ve never stopped. You’ve peddled lies about me, claimed I was stalking you, advised another to ignore me, banned be from you blog on the alleged basis that I was a ‘fascist’ (all for making some well reasoned comments on Sand’s book – without actually supporting the book). The list is endless. Your campaign against the Rev. Sizer can only be described as the work of a conservative pro-Israel 101 Keyboard fanatic, video included (how much time mustn’t you have spent putting that farce together?)

    I remind you of your adage :

    Oh and Rev. Sizer if you are reading this, using the expression “Zionist” instead of “Jews” doesn’t fool anyone, the Extreme Right have been using that particular ploy for the years.

    Clearly the face of reason speaking…

  45. richardmillett

    Gert, you pointed out nothing about any change by Hamas in their position. You are deluded. The fact you think Hamas has changed its position proves how naive you really are. You have nothing constructive to say and have a violent outlook.

  46. Daniel Marks

    Try and be honest, the only reason you call “Toameh a journalist is because he serves your purpose. …”

    What nonsense. He’s a journalist because he’s employed by several papers to be one. That’s his job and that’s what he is.

    Neither does acknowledging that simple truth imply any kind of value judgement. He might be a good or bad journalist, clever or stupid, Zionist or anti, gay or straight. He’s just a journalist and you’ll be betraying nobody to agree to that simple point.

    I never said if he was loyal or a traitor. Honestly, I don’t know enough about him. However, Toameh must be an acceptable source of information even to the most gruesome anti-Zionists/semites as the Tehran Times quotes him today regarding the aforementioned story.

    Do you see how absurd you’ve now become positioning yourself to the Right of the Tehran Times?

  47. modernityblog

    Richard,

    I just wonder, IF Gert had a gun who else would he gladly shoot between the eyes?

  48. Daniel M.:

    Do you see how absurd you’ve now become positioning yourself to the Right of the Tehran Times?

    I support the boycott. Whether the Tehran Times does so or not is immaterial to me. It simply doesn’t say anything about the boycott. Or the Tehran Times who are merely reporting on it.

    Your fake concern for ‘ordinary Palestinians’ is a joke, as well you know.

  49. Richard:

    You have nothing constructive to say and have a violent outlook.

    and Modders:

    I just wonder, IF Gert had a gun who else would he gladly shoot between the eyes?

    Pah-leaeaease spare me your petty bourgeois sanctimoniousness: you both support a country born in violence and the displacement/dispossession of almost an entire people, including a good dollop of old fashioned terrorism. The oppression, land grabbing and brutal military occupation goes on unabated until this day.

    And you want to lecture someone on ‘violence’? Phwoar!!!

  50. richardmillett

    Gert “I would gladly put the bullet between both eyes with my own gun”, you are no better than your friend, Gamil.

    You have your view of the conflict which, although in my view uninformed, is fine.

    But to condone this kind of thing for a journalist is sickening.

  51. modernityblog

    Gert would probably like to put all of his political opponents up against a wall and shoot them, that’s his level.

  52. My goodness Gert. What a busy day I’ve had. Now, where should I begin?
    Starting with BDS. I have never heard of them. However since you are a subscriber to them I can only assume it means “Belgians with Double Standards”? Why do you need to hide behind an organisation? Stand up and be counted Gert. You have a logo of the flag of Israel on your site with the words “Boycott Israel” of the most sinister variety (bad bad Israel) with no further explanation/context. Frankly, from you, no further explanation is required so don’t trouble yourself. This is called a campaign of “demonising” and “delegitimizing” and “discrediting” or if you like for our young and cooler readers, “dissing”. Still I suppose looking on the bright side we could see it as the recent graffiti painted on the fence of the Israeli consulate in Manila:
    ” You are 62 and still everyone wants to fuck you. Happy birthday, Israel ! ”

    Now about the boycott of Ahava and collective punishment and your BDS values etc. Overwhelmingly, at least 77% of the residents of Mitzpe Shalem where the Ahava goods are produced, voted for the “Peace Camp” consistently in the last few elections. Does this statistical fact interest you at all Gert? They are willing to uproot from their homes for the sake of the mere hope of true peace. So whilst it’s appreciated that a grain of gratitude for this sacrifice is pushing our luck somewhat, you go and advocate a boycott to very actively collectively punish them? And you and your fellow henchmen throw into the mix sharpening the claws and digging them into a honest small franchise business here in the UK trying to make a living? No Gert. I think you’ll find actually that your argument is even weaker than you might have thought.

    Re your comments on Gaza. So now if you subscribe to conspiracy theories (which is a “truth” we invent when the reality does not match our beliefs) which you clearly do, it would be pointless in telling you that I can speak for the majority of Israelis in saying killing innocent civilians is always a tragedy and never ever something to celebrate. I have spent countless hours pondering about it and I can only say that for the life of me i can’t understand the human shield policy thing in Gaza. What the hell is that all about? Do you think they should rethink that one Gert?

    I’ve since accepted that i could never fully grasp this death wish there as it is the complete and absolute opposite of what I stand for. Ii would not advocate that to my worst enemy let alone my own people so i can’t help you with that one I’m afraid. Hamas collectively punishing their people by death is in my books absolutely and totally abhorrent. When are they going to understand that they and all their sympathisers adhere to a morally bankrupt ideology (perhaps more suited to the glorious era of medieval times)?
    You know Gert some of my credentials are that I am a tenth generation “Jerusalemite” making my daughter the eleventh not to mention my forefathers who went before us eleven praying and yearning to go back home (yes sweetie, home) . I’ll spare you the rest but hopefully you may understand that i have something of a healthy interest in my homeland. The thing is I’m not sure on your credentials. Who are you Gert? What do you stand for in this world? I’m trying to put myself in your shoes and be objective which is of course hard but let’s try this and see if it gets us anywhere…..
    You know a weak point for me and one of my “buttons” is the abuse and suffering of children. I have enough self awareness to know that this is in part from having a bit of a shitty childhood and part because i simply adore children and children have the right to be protected. But even with this analogy i hit a brick wall in understanding you as my preoccupation (not the occupation) is with how I can help children and how I can in practical terms, re-design my life in order to free up time to make a difference. I would also wish this to be global and not discriminate by choosing exclusively a small group of children. Why would I? As a reasonable person it would cause me some serious questions in my mind.

    I am not preoccupied and obsessed with fantasies of the abusers and how they should be punished. I don’t know, maybe i’ve got it wrong all these years? Maybe I should use my energy to be lobbying for the castration of paedophiles or something? Should I be successful with this, I suppose there would be a particularly high concentration of penis-less men in Belgium. Never really understood why they headquarter in Belgium, not sure i really care. They could put that one in “interesting but useless facts about Belgium” for tourists I suppose.

    Moving swiftly on let me tell you a secret but keep it to yourself. Abu Khaled Tomeh is admired in very high ranking Palestinian circles. This is the Middle East after all Gert and having “balls” is greatly admired and respected over there. That’s not to say that totalitarian people like you wouldn’t want to shoot him and/or incite others to do this for them. This is exactly what I meant in my response to the bizarre link you sent to me recently, of the totalitarians flying into the blind panic of looking to silence these people by killing them.
    What a strange statement to make that he is a traitor and not a journalist. And this makes you want to shoot him and incite others to do the same? I wouldn’t even say that about Vanunu who, by selling state secrets about alleged nukes is every country’s definition of being “a traitor” (but I’m sure you beg to differ) He put my country in jeopardy and i still wouldn’t want to shoot him and i certainly would not incite others to do it either.
    (Richard I wonder as this is open for all to see you should perhaps delete that comment from Gert as G-d forbid he has incited unnecessary violence towards a fellow human being for merely doing his job well?)

    As for your discussion with Daniel Marks about the shop thing? Hilarious. How arrogant does someone have to be to assert he knows what’s best for a people in a far away land because he read a few books, read The Guardian and a few blogs? Isn’t this the remnants of European imperialist supremacy ideology that you have yet to rid yourself of? Who are you to impose your beliefs on another people and speak of them like they are retarded and can’t make up their own mind? Could this be the naked flame of Liberalism burning in all its’ Totalitarian glory? Indeed I think it is.

    Anyway Gert. It’s my turn to be a bit random with video links. Check this one out. Delightful poem, not quite Keats but it may or may not charm you😉

    (Daniel any luck with the PA’s distribution of cuddly toys and Tupperware? I heard some complaints have been raised of them not yet reaching the recipients, must be those bloody Zionist checkpoints)

  53. Daniel Marks

    Gert, Gert, Gert,

    If you don’t claim that Jaffa has been “ethnically cleansed”, you won’t have to retract the next day. If you check out the Rami Levi story before claiming it to be inaccurate, you won’t have to “explain what you really meant” later on. If you find out who a journalist is and who’s picking up his stories, before you label him a traitor, you won’t find yourself adopting a more extreme position than the Tehran Times. Read a bit, ask questions if you don’t know, qualify the statements when you’re not sure about something – in short, do your homework mate. It’s becoming too easy.

    In a recent blooper. You explain that the “Kamp Kommandant” you compared me to was not a “Nazi analogy”. Interesting…Very interesting…..What kind of camp did you have in mind Gert? A German summer camp? An Austrian fat kids’ camp. Why am I a Kommandant and why my the campers the “inmates”?

    So a lesser anti-Semite than yourself might have cut his losses or at the very least ponder a moment before he tries again, but not our Gert. He ever so gracefully jumps out of the proverbial frying pan and into the fire”:

    “I just wonder, IF Gert had a gun who else would he gladly shoot between the eyes?

    Pah-leaeaease spare me your petty bourgeois sanctimoniousness: you both support a country born in violence and the displacement/dispossession of almost an entire people, including a good dollop of old fashioned terrorism.” – Gert

    What a wonderful Gertism! Countries born in violence should not complain if the Gerts of this world want to shoot journalists between the eyes.

    Firstly, let’s put our card on the table. Israel was indeed “born in violence and the displacement/dispossession of almost an entire people, including a good dollop of old fashioned terrorism “- Hardly the wording I’d have used, but accurate enough.

    The Jewish Yishuv campaigned for and gratefully accepted partition in 1948. That would have meant our receiving about 15% of the original land area of Mandate Palestine and there would have been another Arab state. It wasn’t the fulfillment of everyone’s dreams but it was the best deal anyone was offering and we accepted.

    The other side (Palestinian Arabs and neighboring Arab states) famously rejected partition and launched a war of aggression to “strangle the Jewish State at birth”. Many Gerts-of those-times were quite shocked to see Jews actually fight back, to actually see Jews not butchered for once, but defending themselves.

    As a result of that war most of the Jews living in Arab countries were expelled or pressured into leaving, mainly arriving in Israel. There was also a similar movement of Palestinian Arabs from Israel to the West Bank, Gaza and other Arab countries.

    Were these Arabs expelled? Were they encouraged to leave by their own leaders? This is a question oft discussed by historians. I once heard someone say that about a third were expelled, about a third left because they were told to or wanted to and about a third stayed. I’m no historian, but it seems rational.

    So Israel was indeed born in violence. We didn’t begin it, but we gave as good as we took. After 2,000 the Jew was tired of being butchered!

    Does that justify shooting Arab journalists between their eyes 62 years later?

    I say no.

    In the American Revolution about 50,000 Americans and an unknown number of British were killed. I doubt that were a US-Gert to shoot an American journalist such an argument would constitute an adequate line of defense.

    A similar number of Frenchman were killed in the French Revolution and the reign of terror that followed. I’m equally dubious whether this historical fact, in and of itself, would hold a French-Gert in good stead were he to shoot an Arab journalist between the eyes in gay Paris.

    I could go back to the Battle of Hastings, but I think that by now even the barmiest Belgian blogger should have cottoned on.

    Gert mate, we all love but I’m beginning to feel like a bully. All I’m asking is a bit more research, a bit more depth. Think before you type.

    God has given you the wonderful gift of a brain. Use it.

    Hag Sameach!

  54. Daniel Marks

    I mentioned to a colleague, less liberal than myself, that Arabs aren’t allowed into Rami Levi anymore, “Good,” he replied, “They should never have let them in, in the first place.” “Funny,” I mumbled, “I have another mate called Gert who says that too.”

    Either way, on my first visit the local supermarket since the boycott began I was sure I’d see the realization of all Gert’s aspirations. For better or for worse an Arab- free supermarket.

    No such thing. Am I imagining it or are there more Arabs here than ever. I knew that the whole meat counter was Arabs, the guy with the vegetables, the guy who told me where to find the cheap wine, the guy who told me that the wine wasn’t as cheap as I’d thought. The tall guy next to me in line, the guy who tried to persuade me to buy ice-cream but admitted he’s never eaten it himself, the guy who filled my bags and laughed at my joke – all Arabs. Black-legs in every sense of the word.

    As I walked down the aisle looking for cooking oil I heard Arabic everywhere. This must surely be the worst boycott in the world!

    Then a melancholy note struck me. If this is how my cousins organize something as simple as a boycott, how are they going to run their Palestinian state? Then I smiled and realized, “It will be just like Israel.”

  55. I would like to be the first to take the excellent advice of Daniel Marks of checking facts and research etc. I have had new evidence come to light that the Ahava store in CG may not be a franchise but indeed a branch of the company.

    Whilst this does not change the argument for me I believe it important to admit when we may have got our facts wrong.

    Both sources of information are very reliable so I will get to the bottom of this by means of seeking the truth because frankly, I CAN handle the truth.

    Gert I promise you it is not so hard and in the name of reason and truth give it a whirl, you may find it quite liberating.

  56. Daniel M:

    You disappoint. Instead of ratcheting up the usual Hasbara 101 (which you know very well I’m familiar with) why not answer my simple questions? Since as to you ‘Judea and Samaria’ are ‘disputed territory’, what’s your view on the future Israel and the role Palestinians play in it, specifically in the WB? Everyone here must surely get the impression you’re afraid to answer because you might simply confirm my ‘prejudices’ regarding Zionism’s intentions?

    All:

    Astonishing how a remark about shooting a traitor (for now quite literally a literary act) attracts such an amount of moral tuttuting, yet the example of the very real shooting of an entirely innocent woman, an act committed by the cowards of Israel’s Finest, get to be completely ignored…

    Love2love:

    Spare the effort, I skip your drivel entirely.

  57. Daniel Marks

    Richard,

    Gert’s requesting me to write some kind of personal political manifesto. It will take up quite a lot of space and I know that this is not exactly the topic in hand.

    Would you rather that I write off-blog?, Would you rather make a separate page? Or is it okay to answer him here?

  58. Daniel:

    I’m sorry but I’m not asking you to write some ‘personal political manifesto’, just to answer my simple questions. You want to turn that into a ‘manifesto’? Fine. You can also do it at mine, if you prefer. It’s up to you…

  59. Oh, and this just in from the Britraeli Belcher:

    A propos some boycotters –

    I wonder how long these mindless c*nts would be able to stick living under the PA . . . never mind Hamas.
    Personally, I’d bulldoze the lot of them. [my emph.]

    Nice little reference to Rachel ‘Pancake’ Corrie there… The Moral Outrage by the The Righteous Plonker Modders just comes screaming off the page. Or Richard. OrDaniel. Or Ruth. Or Whoever…

  60. Daniel Marks

    Gert,

    You’ll have to explain that last posting.

    Either you’re very clever, or the opposite because, frankly, I haven’t a clue what you’re talking about.

    I assume that I’m OrDaniel, but other than that it just sounds like a bit of a Belgian waffle.

    Affectionately,

    Daniel

  61. modernityblog

    As I’ve suggested before, there is no common ground with fanatics like Gert.

    There is no common humanity, Gert doesn’t have any.

    Gert thinks that shooting journalists between the eyes a is an acceptable practice.

    After that surely there’s not much more to be said ?

  62. This must be the most tedious debate on RM’s site.

    Perhaps we should adopt the policy espoused by Screamin’ Lord Such’s adherents and start by going down the pub.

  63. Daniel M.:

    You’ll have to explain that last posting.

    Click the link provided in that comment. You’ll see Melchett’s comment (that I quoted) that calls for the ‘Rachel Corrie-ing’ of some boycotters. I didn’t see The Righteous One, you, Richard or any of the posse lament that comment.

  64. Gert thinks that shooting journalists between the eyes a is an acceptable practice.

    Ok, shooting is too hard, perhaps a little gentle kneecapping could suffice?😉

    The point is that he’s not a journalist but a turncoat. He happens to write anti-Palestinian stuff that goes down like manna from heaven in the most Islamophobic and Arabophobic country in the universe and he gets paid for that. And admired. Patted on the back. Which happens also to be the most pro-Zionist in this funny old world. To consider Toameh a journalist is rich, even by your standards…

  65. ‘pro-Zionist country’ of course.

  66. modernityblog

    This is a good antidote to those hung up on Israelis, “Why I spied for Israel”

    Mosab Hassan Yousef is the eldest son of a founder of the militant Palestinian movement Hamas.

    He grew up with privileged access to the inner circle of the Palestinian leadership.

    He was captured and tortured by the Israelis but then decided to become a spy for the Israeli secret service Shin Bet. Over ten years he became one of their most valuable intelligence assets.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/hardtalk/8675568.stm

  67. Richard T.:

    How about the pub then? Mine’s a Stella and I’m buying…

  68. modernityblog

    “Hamas torturing its own people…”

  69. Gert – another time: I’m off to visit Michael Palin’s cousin for tea – assuming that the Yanks have worked out that it’s better if you don’t sue salt water.

  70. Very interesting Modders. But Mosab Hassan Yousef and Khaled Toameh are hardly representative of anything but themselves.

    I’m out for now. Daniel’s answer won’t come in before Shabbat is over.

  71. Daniel Marks

    If it doesn’t come before Friday sundown, it won’t come till a few hours after Shabbat.

    Regarding my friend Mike’s suggestion, I’m would only say that bulldozing people who break the law in Waitrose has never been my way.

    As far as his comment is concerned, while “mindless” seems fair, I personally see no resemblance there to a female primary sexual organ.

    Furthermore, they weren’t writing “Juden” on the windows yet or painting yellow stars of David, so I guess we ought to be grateful.

  72. If it doesn’t come before Friday sundown, it won’t come till a few hours after Shabbat.

    Don’t ask why but I seem to think it’s Friday today, no idea why. I blame the Jews!😉

  73. Gerty's Mate

    If Gert says it’s Friday then it’s Friday and none of you Zionist agitators can prove differently!
    I am sick and tired of you Jews trying to twist everything my mate Gerty says.
    Me and Gert go back a long way and let me make it clear that if any of pick a fight with Gerty, you’re picking a fight with me.
    So beware!
    I and certain people might not like Jews but we appreciate a good cigar and a pint of Stella.
    As the great Belgian poet Jan Theuninck once said
    “One even becomes a suspect for not thinking correctly”

  74. Daniel Marks

    Gert’s Question – Part 1 – The Background

    Our greatest commentator Rashi begins his monumental interpretation of the Torah by quoting a certain Rabbi Isaac who asks why the text should begin with the creation of the world. On the face of it this may seem like a strange question, but it’s important to remember that the Torah is not a story book or history book. It is, in the words of Isaac Heschel a book that seeks to answer the fundamental question, “What does God want from us?”

    Furthermore, us, namely the Jewish people began their national existence many years later on leaving Egypt. There were no Jews in the world when God created it, so why does he have to tell us this story?

    Rabbi Isaac answers, “The power of His works he has declared to His people in giving them the heritage of the nations. For if the nations of the world should say to Israel:

    “You are robbers because you have seized, by force, the lands of seven nations (Canaan)”
    They (Israel) could say to them:

    “The entire world belongs to the Holy One, Blessed be He, He created it and gave it to whomever He pleased. Of His own will He gave it to them, and of His own will He took it from them and gave it to us.”

    By now, Gert, you’re probably wondering what has all this to do with Judea and Samaria in 2010. I understand that you’re an atheist and to you I might as well be a wizard from a Harry Potter movie.

    However, this is the first mistake of Westerners like yourself and many Israelis too. To understand the Arab-Israeli conflict today, there is nothing more important than to understand that we are talking first and foremost about what might have once been a political conflict but is today a religious conflict, or at least a conflict of religions. Fail to understand this and you understand nothing.

    Consider for a moment about half of the Jews living in Israel are descended from Jews who lived in Arab countries. Many of them still talk Arabic, they eat Arab food, listen to Arabic tunes and a Westerner such as yourself would be unable to distinguish one of them from a Palestinian, Egyptian or Syrian Moslem.
    Nevertheless, they identify wholly with their European Jewish brethren, live and intermarry with them and would not dream of marrying a Moslem or voting for a Moslem party anymore than a Jew of European origins would.
    Likewise, look at anti-Israel Pakistanis who call for Israel’s destruction, though many of them speak no Arabic and understand little about the conflict. They support their Palestinian brethren for the exact same reason that an American Jew supports Israel. Not because they’ve objectively studied the question and decided who’s right, but because the serve God in the same way.

    You may honestly be an anti-Zionist and not a Jew hater but I can tell you that when I served in the IDF Arabs shouted at us “Itbuch el Yud” (probably badly spelt) which means “Slaughter the Jews” not the Zionists or the Israelis.
    When an Israeli Arab says that he is torn between his country and his people, really he means his religion. He will happily marry his daughter to a Jordanian moslem, even though the Jordanians killed 10,000 Palestinians in 1970. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_September_in_Jordan

    I could go on, but I think you get the point.
    Is this a good or bad state of affairs? You probably think it’s bad. Maybe you yearn for the day that Israel was almost completely secular and most Arabs were not very religious. Maybe you’re right, but it doesn’t matter. This is the world that we live in.

    And here Gert is why it has become so absurd to see our presidents Peres and Abu Mazen hugging each other and “representing” their peoples. Peres understands as much about Judaism as Abu Mazen does about Islam. they are two religious ignoramuses who are meeting to discuss what is essentially a religious question. It might be the equivalent of each European country sending their best footballer to represent them at a medical conference and make crucial decisions about open heart surgery.

    Okay, if Richard is okay with it, I’ll right your next installment after Shabbat. I suggest that we leave questions and comments until I finish.

  75. Gerty's Mate

    Yeah Me and Gert OK that

  76. Has anyone here heard whether Galloway, or to be more accurate, his Canadian supporters, have dropped the court action that was supposed to be heard in late April to allow the slimeball to enter Canada?

  77. Daniel Marks

    Hi Gert,
    Last time we said that, “….we are talking first and foremost about what might have once been a political conflict but is today a religious conflict, or at least a conflict of religions.”

    You are probably saying, “So what? What do I care if the conflict is political, religious or anything else? What difference does it make? Israel must pull back to the Green Line and then they’ll be peace.”

    And you’re right too in a sense, Gert. In order to make war it really matters little what the nature of the conflict is. A gun is a gun and a tank is a tank.

    However making peace is a different matter. The cessation of hostilities between two warring parties will usually either come about when one side is victorious, or when both sides determine that they now have more to gain from declaring a ceasefire or even making peace. Since, clearly, at this point in time Israel’s enemies are unable to bring about her destruction or force her surrender, and since, though Israel is reported to have weapons of mass destruction she apparently chooses not to use them to force her enemies surrender, it appears that an end to the conflict will only come about by the latter means. In other words, in order for peace to be made an understanding is required by both sides of the others religious aspirations and an attempt must be made to find a formula acceptable both to Islam and to Judaism.

    Compromise is far more problematic is religious than in political questions as both sides see themselves doing the will of God and so concession could mean his betrayal. Compounding the problem, Judaism and Islam are both intellectually “pluralistic” religions in the sense that while they both believe in only one God and one truth but both Jews and Moslems are not in total agreement among themselves as to what these truths are. While in Judaism such arguments are usually verbal, in Islam they are often the direct or indirect cause of wars between different sects of Islam.

    I wasn’t able to find it, but if I’m not mistaken in an early posting you argued that the Zionist claim to be concerned about security is a façade and that truthfully we care about a Greater Israel. While nobody has used that expression for many decades, there is much truth in what you say. Perhaps this is the second ramification of the Arab-Israeli conflict being religious in nature.

    Ask any politician what the first responsibility of government and his answer will be something along the lines of “To keep his country and people safe from all enemies foreign and domestic enemies.” I was born in London as were most of the friends I went to school with. At the age of 18 I moved to Israel by myself. My wife was born in Argentina she made a similar decision. Nor was there anything special about my choice scores of young Jews have made the same decision. Did I come here for reasons of security? Of course not. I’ve had to serve in the army as have my two eldest children. Had my first consideration been security I wouldn’t be here in the first place.

    Ask a politician what the second responsibility of government is and he’ll tell you that it’s to guarantee the social and economic security of its people and their prosperity. Did we come to Israel to be prosperous? Of course not. It’s no secret that our friends who stayed behind in London have larger houses, cars and salaries than us.

    Gert, we may be the only case in world history where people chose to immigrate to another country in order to be less safe and poorer. It was not a political decision, how could it have been? It was an ideological, religious decision, even by those who are not God-fearing Jews.
    There are many ramifications of our struggle being religious and they are often misunderstood by friend, foe and even our own leaders.

    Remember the Barak-Arafat Camp David Talks. Everyone was certain that it was a done deal. We would give away 90-something percent of Judea and Samaria and Arafat would declare an end to the conflict. Politically it was a great deal for Arafat but he backed out at the last minute. Though he knew about as much about Islam as Barak does about Judaism he knew his people well enough to know that the fundamentalist brand of Islam dominating the Gaza Strip (and probably Judea and Samaria too) would never allow a political “compromise” which would be in violation of their interpretation of Islam.

    So, you are doubtless asking yourself, “If the conflict is religious then why do I only hear about politics? If both the Jews’ and the Arabs’ motivations are religious, why am I hearing about Israel’s security needs and about Palestinian children?” That’s east Gert, that’s called propaganda. Both sides tell you what you want to hear, they talk to you in terms that you understand. They choose their arguments not from their hearts but from their brains and ask themselves to which line of reasoning you will be the most receptive.

    Okay, part three by the end of the week. I warned you that it wasn’t a simple answer. If you have any questions or comments, please feel free to ask.

  78. Hi Daniel:

    No, I’ll wait till you’ve finished.

    Thanks.

  79. In response to Gert, you don’t have to be Jewish to support Israel. My great
    uncle was blown up by Begin in the King David Hotel. I have only one or two Jewish friends.I am liberal and left. That’s why I oppose an organisation (Hamas) that promotes the protocols of the elders of Zion and denies the holocaust along with Israels right to exist. I also criticise some aspects of Israels treatment of the Palestinians and likewise the treatment of Palestinian refugees by Arab countries such as Syria which forbids them to go to university or even leave their camps without permission. It’s about moral consistency. Don’t assume a pro-Israel Jew is pro-Israel because they’re Jewish.

  80. PG:

    Probably over 75 % of Israel supporters worldwide are non-Jewish. I never said otherwise.

    Supporting one country because some others are worse is silly.