From Merthyr Tydfil with Love

A carload of people from Merthyr Tydfil, Wales made the 350 mile round trip down the M4 to Covent Garden on Saturday for the biweekly anti-Israel protest outside Ahava.

The anti-Israel campaigners are usually plentiful and have unlimited amounts of anti-Israel leaflets and Palestinian flags at hand. They scream their denunciations of Israel through their megaphones. In contrast, the one man and his dog of Israel’s supporters in the counter-demo. have just an Israeli flag and a megaphone.

Last saturday, though, the cavalry charge was on.

People who had heard about these insidious attempts to destroy Ahava’s saturday afternoon business came out in numbers to support Ahava.

They handed out the newly-printed leaflets containing a more balanced perspective of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. They also spoke to baffled passers-by about what was happening.

And this saturday even the anti-Israel protesters were, strangely, depleted.

I asked an Irishman standing nearby for his own thoughts on the protests. He sympathised with Israel as his own people “had suffered years of IRA terrorism”.

To make his point he then stormed the barricades and entered Ahava and was not seen to reappear for some time. My hunch is that the clever Ahava staff persuaded him into having one of their revitalising mineral treatments.

Another concern, though, was for the surrounding businesses. Ahava is popular, despite the protests, but the nearby shops suffer most from the aggressive anti-Israel posturing.

Saturday afternoon trade is crucial but the manager of the Venise Collection, the classy women’s bags and shoe shop next to Ahava, told me that passers-by don’t even notice his shop as their faces are turned to the noisy anti-Israel protest instead.

During the two hour protest Venise Collection took no money, although I have it on good authority that some of the women in the pro-Israel counter-demo. had to summon up all their powers of concentration to keep their minds on Israel and not rush in to buy a nice pair of Dolce and Gabbana heels.

For once the anti-Israel protesters seemed shell-shocked at not having the area virtually to themselves, but they’ll be back.

Midday-2pm on saturday 9th May outside Ahava, 39 Monmouth Street, Covent Garden, to be more precise.

Finally, though, the pro-Israel protesters, or, more precisely, those in favour of one Israeli and one Palestinian state living side-by-side in peace, are starting to get their act together.

Video and Photos of anti-Israel protest and the counter-demo.:

Loud anti-Israel protesters are affecting adjoining businesses

59 responses to “From Merthyr Tydfil with Love

  1. Richard,

    Just out of interest, how many people attend the bi-weekly protest?

  2. FREE PALESTINE!

  3. Dead Sea Mud = Palestinian Blood? How corny. Actually Dead Sea Mud makes my skin peachy and soft like a babies bottom thank you very much. Interesting that you get to see in this short clip courtesy of Richard Millett, that after that bullshit corny statement the more sinister “Free Free Palestine”. That’s more like it guys. Call me cynical but I have a horrible feeling that they mean the whole of Israel as we know it? A FACT I have had substantiated by an attendee of the Israeli counter demo who went around asking them. (if you don’t believe me just go ask them yourselves) These ultra left wing defenders of the faith, defenders of peace, defenders of the underdog recognise the rights of the Palestinians to self-determination but not the Jewish rights? Tut tut. Talk about tying yourself up in knots with your crackpot so called ideals. I smell a big fat stinky poo rat there. Well I am happy to confirm we are not going anywhere, neither is the wonderful Ahava , Am Yisrael Chai so shut the fuck up, you’re boring me.

  4. All that remains is FORCING Israel to abide by international law and return to its ‘67 borders. I would say ‘return to its original borders’ as authorized by the UN but of course, considering all the additional land siezed/stolen by Israel since that time, that would be impossible.
    One other little incidental fact that the pro Israeli trash continues seems to avoid is that 700,000+ indigenous peoples were forced and/or driven from their homes in that UN authorised land durring the 1948 establishment of Israel. NOR were the locals ever consulted by the UN PRIOR to the UN arrangement. All these things we are expected to overlook when it comes to Israel and their endless security concerns.
    So it is time to say to Israel “Get off the occupied territories and follow international law, NOW!” Why does israel make this so difficult? Asking them is no way to ever get a resolution.

  5. richardmillett

    Martin, what international law would that be? Can you quote me it please? As for indigenous, i do not think that is true either. Many came to the area from surrounding Arab lands.

    Rog. – normally about 40 but on saturday there were about 25 probably because JBIG (Jews for Boycotting Israeli Goods) were absent.

  6. Richard:

    When are you going to quit playing ‘legal Eagle’ and start acting like the ‘two stater’ you claim to be? Occupied Territory = No Palestinian State, it really is just about that simple. Unless of course you want to trust a proto-fascist like Lieberman with negotiations about massive land swaps, negotiations in which Israel holds all the cards and could try and drag things out for another 40 years, if not longer.

    As for indigenous, i do not think that is true either. Many came to the area from surrounding Arab lands.

    Just shows once again how deeply racist your whole attitude to Jewish/Palestinian rights just is. Let’s assume, for arguments sake, that the ’empty Land’ myth is in fact 100 % correct. So at one point European Jewish settlers arrive in ’empty’ Palestine and claim rights there but Palestinians/Arabs would not be able to the same? On what grounds? That the Jews were indigenous to the area? Not these Jews, they weren’t. That the Palestinians weren’t indigenous? That the Palestinians already had ’22 states’? European Jews had statehood too.

    And now we have a situation where millions of Jews have dual statehood and millions of Palestinians have no statehood at all. More racism, anyone?

    No, Richard, if you were honest and not such a complete hypocrite you would nail your colours to the mast and declare your belief that Palestine is for the Jews and the Jews only, by Divine Decree and be done with it. Gideon Levy wrote that he has more respect for the Israeli Settler Right than for the Israeli Left. He’s right: the former is at least honest…

  7. “All that remains is FORCING Israel to abide by international law and return to its ‘67 borders. “

    Forced? by whom?

    Surely, unless you were a neofascist or on a similar vein of thinking then force is the last thing that you want *again* in the Middle East?

  8. Have you not heard of ECONOMIC force? The worldwide Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions campaign is WORKING! It’s having an affect. The Israeli government has even admitted it themselves. It worked with the racist, apartheid government in South Africa, it will also work to bring down the racist, apartheid Israeli state. Its only a matter of time, as justice will prevail.

  9. richardmillett

    Martin, meet Gert.

    Maybe Martin could try answering my question again:

    “what international law would that be? Can you quote me it please?”

    Gert, once again you take someone’s statement and twist it shamelessly so you can call them “racist”. I am pro the occupation until Israel’s security is assured. No doubt, if Israel withdrew, the rockets would start hitting Tel Aviv and there would be another war just like Gaza. More bloodshed.

    Also, i never said the area was empty, but many Palestinians are not indigenous. Many, or most even (I don’t know how many exactly), Jews do originate from there.

  10. Richard,

    You sure do get them!

    Gert, now Martin, next Baroness Tonge will turn up🙂

  11. Richard:

    Britain doesn’t hate the Jews. Most Brits don’t know anything about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and don’t care. They just want to get on with their lives and have a strong economy, a good health service, good schools etc.

    And that’s a good thing, right? Metro, boulot, dodo. See no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil.

    Heaven forbid that the ‘people that make and do everything’ (but are really designed only to consume but not much else) would take an interest in the massive injustice inflicted on another people. What a world that would be, eh? Just imagine… Tss…

    It is the politicians that shamelessly exploit religion, ethnicity and conflict for their own political gain and they are the ones that try to spread the muck about Israel.
    This is because of oil interests and the ratio of Jews to Muslims in this country.

    HAHAHAHAHHHHAHAHAHHAHAHHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAH. Sh*t, pissed myself again!
    Despite ‘ratio of Jews to Muslims’ this country has been firmly committed to Israel’s well-being. Despite a bit of lip service to the ‘two state solution’ successive HM governments have never put any pressure on Israel at all. Even a majority Lib Dems is unlikely to change that.

    The Lib Dems are just the total embodiment of that. I’m just not sure if Rog. realises how much damage Rog. the Lib Dems are doing for communal relations in Britain and yet they shamelessly call themselevs a “progressive party”.

    I’m almost feeling sorry for Roger ‘I know bugger all about I/P’ Tichborne at this point. Your allegation against the Lib Dems is a very serious one. Is there anything you won’t try and drag into this to attempt to deligitimise any criticism of Israel?

  12. Martin:

    If you’re going to engage with Modernity Blog then be aware his debating tactics are deeply dishonest and involve deliberate misinterpretation and distortion of opponents’ viewpoints, deployment of straw men, playing l’ingenue and claiming opponents are “stupid”, “antisemitic”, “ill-informed” or “mentally ill”.

    How anyone can misunderstand ‘FORCING’ as anything other than a response to Palestinian society’s call for International solidarity, aka BDS, as ‘neofascist’ is beyond me and a good example of Modders’ attempts to put the opponent in an unnecessarily defensive position.

    Ignore him, dealing with Mr ‘I’m not a Zionist but I’m a two stater’ Millett is hard enough without wanting to pout a brick through your monitor….

  13. I was outside H&M earlier today educating the public about how the company is supporting the israeli apartheid economy. We received outstanding support from the locals and many people pledged to boycott H&M, just like
    AH-VA!

    International Law Richard: How about the FOURTH GENEVA CONVENTION for starters!

    Israel is a serial international law abuser. Specifically, it committed and continues to commit grave violations of the 1949 Fourth Geneva Convention that protects civilians in times of war and has done so for decades:
    – Article 2 states that “the present Convention shall apply to all cases of declared war or of any other armed conflict which may arise between two or more of the High Contracting Parties, even if the state of war is not recognized by one of them. The Convention shall also apply to all cases of partial or total occupation of the territory….even if the said occupation meets with no armed resistance;”
    – Article 3 prohibits all kinds of assaults on life or physical security;
    – Article 27 refers to “protected persons” and states “They shall at all times be humanely treated, and shall be protected especially against all acts of violence….,”
    – Article 32 prohibits murder, torture and corporal punishment, and
    – Article 33 prohibits collective punishment and “all measures of intimidation or….terrorism.”
    Geneva and other international human rights laws guarantee what Article 3 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights states: that everyone “has the right to life, liberty and security of person.” It also affirms Article 6 (1) of the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights of 1966 stating that every “human being has the inherent right to life.” Violations of Geneva and other internationa laws are crimes of war and against humanity. Israel is a serial offender but has yet to be held to account.

    I could go on, but do not want to waste my time publicising a racist, zionist blog.

  14. Gert, how are you my old chum?
    Now, I’m not at all suggesting you’re a dog but I think you are barking up the wrong tree. Just please don’t cock your leg up while you’re at it and do peepee on it as that would be darn right rude. Come on Gert, let’s be civilised about this.
    Why don’t you go and bark, so to speak, up “The Palestinians disputed olive trees”? You are not helping them. You are only encouraging them to choose the path of “folly and crackpotability” rather than “wisdom and peace”. Not to mention encouraging them to wallow in the victimhood status they cling onto as does our media (encourage them). You would be doing them the world of wonders to use your energy in explaining to them something in the spirit of the following “look Pallys, I know we don’t like these pesky Jews who call themselves a nation and refuse to go away despite being the most hunted species in the world, but it looks like they are not going anywhere ( pause for a long sigh) So I would suggest that we unfortunately need discussions from a starting point of recognising their right to be here. I’m not so sure we can push them in the sea after all (another long sigh of resignation for effect)”
    What’s the matter Gert? Is it easier to debate with the democratic Jews/Pro-Israelis rather than challenge the views of the totalitarian brigade you so passionately defend and risk being lynched? Scary shit eh? And no one conducts better and more thorough lynchings than them! We love a good debate us Jews. You know what they say Gert, two Jews, three opinions….
    It’s people like you who not so inadvertadly send the message to the Palestinians that it’s ok, we understand why you (amongst many other sick deeds) dress babies up in mock suicide bomber outfits. It’s because someone farted on my land and occupied it. Gert doesn’t this repulsive child abuse break your heart? It breaks mine. I would sincerely adopt them all if I could and then with my Jewish chutzpah teach and manipulate them callously into peace and co-existence and love and all fluffy nice things.
    You know Gert, there are so many new intelligent initiatives springing up from the west to encourage and enable poverty stricken African states to “till the soil” themselves rather than throwing guilt driven donations from the west on the leaders so they can spunk it up the wall. Not to mention creating dependency on the west which in turn, and understandably so, causes “biting the well meaning hand that feeds” mass resentment. I know this is incredibly racist to suggest Africa is a poor underdeveloped continent and accepts western donations and that I am alluding to the fact that we in the west are superior and bigger and better yada yada yada. But put that sentiment aside for a moment and lets deal with the rest of it lest you get diverted and miss the bigger picture. We must join forces together to help you get rid of that tunnel vision you have fallen victim to.
    Do you not realise/care that you are encouraging Palestinian dependency on their mythical narrative of victimhood? Rather than moaning about stolen olive trees and stolen vital organs and the like, why don’t you help them plant a few trees while you’re at it and donate some vital organs yourself? (just kidding about the latter!! Funny eh?)
    Why do you hate the Palestinians so much? What did they ever do to you that you make it your life mission to punish them and ruin their hopes of ever having a state? Why don’t you go and pick on others rather than channel all your anger onto them? You’re banging on about land when you know full well this is not about land. Give me a break. As a wise man once told me “there are no shortcuts in life”, wise words indeed. As this blogger has said, “I am pro the occupation until Israel’s security is assured. No doubt, if Israel withdrew, the rockets would start hitting Tel Aviv and there would be another war just like Gaza. More bloodshed” I suppose it’s futile in repeating this fact as I have a hunch the size of Mars that this fact may not concern you too much? Tell me I’m wrong Gert? Rockets being fired into Tel Aviv where many of my family reside (I’m a 10th generation Holy Lander!! Woo hoo!) may not be on the top of your agenda? I mean, you might give a half arsed attempt to at least pretend this is a slight concern but I’m not fooled. I wonder furthermore if deep down the thought of it makes you rub your hands together with glee whilst saying in the same breath, “no but I have Jewish friends” . Yeh, that old chestnut. Anyway Gert if only we could get the Palestinians to be obsessed with constructing their own viable state rather with them being so hell-bent on destroying Israel then I believe you would find your life to be so fulfilling that you would be far too busy to take time out as you do to engage in blogger bashing. As much as you would be missed, and you could make a guest appearance infrequently, we would spare you for the greater good of the Palestinians. Furthermore we would all look forward to your quarterly reports on how many olive trees you planted for them. Allah Akbar.

  15. Love2love:

    You are of course just one of the many examples of Israelis of which my few progressive Israeli Zionist friends so despair.

    To you there is no Occupation and no colonisation of the WB either. You’re suffering from a permanent nose bleed when it comes to these crucial aspects. Israel carries no blame whatsoever in your world. Well, we know that that is blind patriotism does to one.

    It’s from people like you that BDS will hopefully save Israel from.

    Still, nice rant!

  16. richardmillett

    I thought Love2love sums you up quite well, Gert. Very eloquent.

    At least you are friends with Zionists, which is a good sign. Maybe we will meet in Jaffa one day and share a bowl of hummous.

    Martin, do you realise the geneva convention applies to both sides? Do you think that Palestinians blowing up innocent men, women and children sitting in restaurants in israel might be a breach of the GC and what about firing 8,000 rockets into Israel from Gaza over the last 5 or so years? Is that a breach?

  17. Maybe we will meet in Jaffa one day and share a bowl of hummous.

    Unless it’s made by settlers! 😉

  18. richardmillett

    For you, i promise all products will be “settler free” for the night!

  19. 8,000 rockets?? Where do you get your information from Richard?! The zionists use overwhelming force and brutality against an oppressed people. How many Palestinians were murdered in Gaza? (1,417-that’s how many) How many israelis were killed? (13). Now you can answer this question: How many Palestinians in Palestine have been murdered since 1948? The few so-called “rockets” were desperate acts made by desperate people who are being ethnically cleansed and are living under apartheid. Nelson Mandela said whats happening to the Palestinians is much worse than what happened to the black population in South Africa under the racist apartheid system. Put that in your pipe and smoke it!!

  20. richardmillett

    Martin, how many Israelis have been murdered since 1948? We could play this game all night, but it gets no one anywhere.

  21. Daniel Marks

    “Maybe we will meet in Jaffa one day and share a bowl of hummous.

    Unless it’s made by settlers!”

    Gert, quick geography lesson. Jaffa has been part of Israel since 1948.

  22. I’ll ask you again Richard, HOW MANY PALESTINIANS HAVE BEEN MURDERED BY ISRAEL SINCE 1948?

    And again, WHERE DID YOU GET THE NUMBER 8,000 FROM?

    For an eyewitness testimony about the ethnic cleansing of Jaffa, click here:
    http://www.palestineremembered.com/Jaffa/Jaffa/Story202.html

    …and I’ll be waiting for your answers Richard.

  23. modernityblog

    Richard,

    I applaud your commitment to freedom of speech, but surely your exchanges with these Western”Anti-Zionists” must convince you of how futile trying to discuss even the simplest issue with them is?

    They are more anti-Israeli than they are pro Palestinian, they are ghouls feeding off the death and destruction.

    That’s why in many ways they emulate the Far Right, with nothing positive to say or no positive outlook on the future.

    That’s also why they take up supporting the Palestinian telegraph, despite its publishing numerous anti-Jewish racist articles.

    That’s why is so futile to discuss matters with them.

    Next they’ll be talking about Tel Aviv….

  24. richardmillett

    Hi Martin

    http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Terrorism-+Obstacle+to+Peace/Palestinian+terror+since+2000/Missile+fire+from+Gaza+on+Israeli+civilian+targets+Aug+2007.htm

    There were 3,200 attacks on Israel in 2008 alone. There are diaries for the previous years also.

    Many Palestinians have been murdered since 1948, as have many Israelis. I haven’t got exact figures.

    Thanks for the eyewitness testimony. I will read it later.

  25. Daniel:

    Gert, quick geography lesson. Jaffa has been part of Israel since 1948.

    Daniel, quick lesson in basic reasoning. Settlers can sell their wares anywhere in the world, including Jaffa… Nice bit of ethnic cleansing went on there too!

  26. Oh, Modders, Modders, Modders:

    This time he wrote:

    They are more anti-Israeli than they are pro Palestinian, they are ghouls feeding off the death and destruction.

    That’s why in many ways they emulate the Far Right, with nothing positive to say or no positive outlook on the future.

    Pfwoar! … “nothing positive to say or no positive outlook on the future”… this one goes in the ‘Moddyquote file’.

  27. Daniel Marks

    Gert,

    There are still 14,000 Arabs eating locally made humus in Jaffa (26% of the population). After 62 years to ethnically clean, you’d think Israel could do a better job than that.

    Reminds me of the Israeli genocide of the Palestinians in Gaza, that’s population has grown five-fold since 1967.

    We really must be the laziest and least efficient ethnic cleansers in the world!

    Any thoughts on that one Gert?

    Shabbat shalom

  28. Firstly Gert, we call them Post Zionists but it is very creative of you to coin the term “Israeli Progressive Zionists”. Well done to you. I suppose you would call Post Modernists, which is an off shoot of the philosophy that these Post Zionists follow, Progressive Modern Thinkers or something? I personally think that post modernism which is can be summerised as “well what is evil anyway, who decides what is evil, fuck it we can get away with anything” is essentially a crock of shit and a very lazy and even dangerous philosophy don’t you think? I mean, out of the fucking window flies accountability, responsibility right and wrong and the like. But anyway, who knows what you subscribe to? Indeed, who cares?
    BTW, I do confess that I love it when I’m right (come on, who doesn’t?) I especially like it when I am proven right. As I said earlier, there are those who think they can hide their anti-Semitism behind a thick layer of Israel bashing and behind another layer of “no but I have Jewish friends” and another layer of “no, I’m far too intellectual and sophisticated to be anti-Semitic” . Yawn. How very predictable. They might try and layer it up, but it is so very painfully transparent that I am almost moved to feel sorry for them and to look at my feet in embarrassment for them.
    You know as much as these days I mostly avoid watching Mel Gibson films, I maintain that at least he had the balls to confess that he is afflicted by this phenomenal disease of anti-Semitism and had the courage to ask to be helped to be cured of it. I sincerely appreciate his honesty and admission that this phenomenal disease that so many deny, actually exists. He paved the way for the likes of them for when they get to a point in the future where their ego disintegrates somewhat leaving enough room for some self-awareness, they will understand that their obsession is unhealthy, unnatural and a bit like that of a stalker. Then thanks to Gibson, they can stand up and be counted as afflicted as well and get the help they so badly need. (although admittedly I’m not sure they have come up with a cure yet but they can Google it? I think they have come up with a recovery program of withdrawal i.e no unnecessary Israel bashing for an hour and then a day and week etc and they try to get people like them to spread their interests to other countries and people especially those who are REALLY oppressed i.e Sudan, China, most Arab countries etc etc ) Food for thought eh? Have a lovely weekend, salam alechem, allah akbar.
    (Daniel Marks, can you edit this for me again but this time as well as breaking it up into paragraphs you can correct the grammar which is not my strongest point and the spelling? Do you offer these services in the business world also? I have a professional editor for my business, but as a Jew, if you’re offering this for free, I’ll take two, Shabbat shalom)

  29. Daniel:

    Since when is the term ethnic cleansing applicable only when the last man, woman and child have been removed? By that criterion there are no ethnic cleansers anywhere and the genocide against European Jews wouldn’t really count because the genocidaires only managed to kill about half them.

  30. It’s Merthyr Tydfil with one ‘l’.

  31. Daniel Marks

    “Since when is the term ethnic cleansing applicable only when the last man, woman and child have been removed?” – Gertie

    The official United Nations definition of ethnic cleansing is “rendering an area ethnically homogeneous by using force or intimidation to remove from a given area persons of another ethnic or religious group.”

    Asked and answered.

    love2love,

    Writing a paragraph is not that difficult. Think of an idea, state it, illustrate it if you wish, then push “enter” twice.

    As far as English Grammar is concerned, I have a mechina (preparatory course) beginning this Thursday. If you’re interested, contact Machon Lander:

    http://www.lander.ac.il/

  32. Gerty's Mate

    I think he’s got us this time Gert me old mate

  33. Resh Lakish

    Gert,

    What exactly is your area of expertise?

  34. Daniel Marks

    I may be going off on a bit of a tangent, but I must confess that hasbara is one of my many hobbies (also chess, Gemara, cooking, writing, public speaking and others). Saturday night we hosted a group of Presbyterians from the US, tomorrow PG German academics and journalists courtesy of Bundeszentrale für Politische Bildung.

    I do it not because I believe I’m making a difference, but because it’s fun. Fun to show people the truth, fun to expose ignorance and hypocrisy.

    You would have thought that blogging with a Gert would be good practice. Know thine enemy and all that stuff.

    However, while I do not dislike Gert personally, as an anti-Zionist adversary he’s been quite a disappointment. His research is sketchy, almost lazy. This laziness manifests itself in a number of ways, not least of which being his use of several weak unsupported statements each compensating for others by their sheer quantity.

    A good case in question is Gert’s contention that Jaffa had been ethnically cleansed and was now serving settler humus. The argument itself is trivial but indicative of the lazy approach to research.

    I pointed out that historically Jaffa is not “occupied” so he clarified that he was referring to the possibility of humus being especially brought over from the West Bank to Jaffa (ingenious). I further explained that Jaffa with a quarter of its population Arab cannot be called ethnically cleansed. By point of comparison the London Borough of Barnet has a population of about 15% Jews and New York has 12%, but neither could be described as being ethnically cleansed of Jews.

    On discovering at last that Jaffa is not an occupied settlement and and has a large vibrant Arab community Gert then fell back on:

    “Since when is the term ethnic cleansing applicable only when the last man, woman and child have been removed?”

    He followed this up with a disgusting comparison to the Holocaust which does not bear repeating but does expose the lie behind the “I’m just an Anti-Zionist” facade. The latter rhetorical question bore witness to the fact that Gert hadn’t even availed himself of Wikipedia

    Today doing your homework is easier than ever and one doesn’t need to use either Israeli or ant-Israeli sites or books. There’s plenty of objective, well researched information out there.

    How on earth are we supposed to get better at Hasbara if we’re up against the Gerts as our sparring partners? If I end of conceding a point to the German’s tomorrow, it’s his fault.

  35. Daniel:

    However, while I do not dislike Gert personally, as an anti-Zionist adversary he’s been quite a disappointment. His research is sketchy, almost lazy. This laziness manifests itself in a number of ways, not least of which being his use of several weak unsupported statements each compensating for others by their sheer quantity.

    A good case in question is Gert’s contention that Jaffa had been ethnically cleansed and was now serving settler humus. The argument itself is trivial but indicative of the lazy approach to research.

    I pointed out that historically Jaffa is not “occupied” so he clarified that he was referring to the possibility of humus being especially brought over from the West Bank to Jaffa (ingenious). I further explained that Jaffa with a quarter of its population Arab cannot be called ethnically cleansed. By point of comparison the London Borough of Barnet has a population of about 15% Jews and New York has 12%, but neither could be described as being ethnically cleansed of Jews.

    My research isn’t sketchy but my responses to you are: nowadays I rarely engage with Hasbara parrots because it’s a total waste of time. I didn’t come to this blog to discuss ethnic cleansing, only to point out inconsistencies in Millett’s regressive reasoning.

    You can call Jaffa ‘partially ethnically cleansed’ if you prefer but that’s really your specialty: playing with words; I’m sure that tactic works wonders with ‘Presbyterians from the US, tomorrow PG German academics and journalists courtesy of Bundeszentrale für Politische Bildung’. Especially Germans will be so easy to bowl over. The sins of the fathers, eh?

    I never claimed Jaffa was serving settler humus, only that there is no reason why it couldn’t since settler products are available all over the world. See also Millet’s post we’re commenting on.

    Barnet or New York weren’t ethnically cleansed but what kind of a comparison are you making here?

    I wasn’t comparing anything to the Holocaust, I was merely pointing out that by your logic on ethnic cleansing the Holocaust could be considered ‘partial genocide’. When people are made to leave their homes and are never allowed to return there then that’s ethnic cleansing to me. The cleansing may be ‘partial’, ‘incomplete’, ‘not completely successful’ but it’s still ethnic cleansing.

  36. Daniel:

    If I end of conceding a point to the German’s tomorrow, it’s his fault.

    So you make it a point to not concede any points to Germans, on the grounds that they’re German? You see, that wouldn’t surprise me in the slightest…

  37. Daniel I totally agree with you on almost everything. And you have beautiful paragraphs. Exactly what I said to my husband just now that I am not making a difference other than knowing the enemy and practising my skills for when I’m in my element face to face with rent-cause Gert types. Boy do I love that!!! I’m not bad but my husband is a master. He worked professionally in Hasbara and will go back to it soon we hope as this is his calling in life. As a Gert type, you would want to steer clear of him as he has this method of making you want to crawl under a large stone and mumble to yourself. It’s such a pleasure to watch him in all his glory. (hoo pam avad b’macom b’aretz im eitona’im zarim, ata betach micir et ha irgun aval ani lo agid et ha’shem po.)
    I had the opportunity recently to engage in these debates with the rent-a-cause soap dodgers and whoop their ass and slam the truth down their throat. They find truth very offensive and irritating. How dare I let facts and logic get in the way of a good slogan! Bad girl. It was especially fun because some passers-by got to witness this spectacle of exposing them. An audience to this glorious exposure is always good. Truth gets so upset when it’s buried as it just wants to shine through. Happy to facilitate in helping it’s shining.
    Mostly though Daniel, let me just preach to the converted a moment. I love hasbara because I so strongly and passionately and totally believe in my country. I feel like a proud Jewish mum talking about her child getting into med school. I take so much sheer pleasure in sharing with the poor people of this country who only know what the media peddle, the truth about Israel. The achievements. The amount of self-criticism they have as a society which at times can be a bit obsessive compulsive. The intolerance of the Israeli public when some politicians are exposed as being corrupt. I mean that in itself speaks volumes. Corruption is everywhere. It’s just that some societies (namely the Palestinians tut tut) are so very tolerant to it. Admittedly if you speak out against it these peace loving people they will cut your balls off and tongue off… but still. Such a stark contrast to Israel. (how would you split this paragraph up? I thought about splitting it into two but wasn’t sure. Is it ok like this?)
    I mean one would think that Gert types would dedicate their lives to helping the Palestinians understand that their tactics have got them no where so perhaps it’s time to change tactics. But instead they just tell the king what beautiful clothes he has when we all know that we can see his bum bum and dangly bits flapping in the wind. Not a very pretty sight I might add, makes me want to yak. Quite cruel of them as well don’t you think? Talk about patronising the locals. I reckon they have posh secret dinner parties and have a right good laugh at the poor Palestinians ‘expense. “Oh daaaaarrrrrlllling, I told Abdul Mohammed Jamil Ali Rahman bloody good job old boy, you strap that bomb to your middle good and proper and put on a jolly good show for those occupying forces, now run along and blow, blow like you’ve never blown before”. Why don’t they lead by example though? Why don’t they go and do this first just to show how it’s done? One does begin to wonder……
    In all seriousness though, the more sinister side of it is, without exaggerating that Gert types have blood on their hands. One of the Palestinians main source of fuel to their terror campaign is the support, sympathy and donations of people like him. They are stood behind them, at a very safe distance shoving them in the firing line telling them “this is the only way, go forth and blow like the wind, sacrifice yourself, allah akbar”. I also take the view that they are callously using the Palestinians as pawns to channel their own anti-Semitism. In other words, all evidence points to it being more about their severe distaste for Jews rather than their love of Palestinians. If it really were about human rights, then the right humans to choose would be in the oppressed countries. Needless to say, these countries are mostly concentrated in the Middle East. Funny that.
    I have made a special effort here to split the paragraphs as they should be and I hope you like it.

  38. richardmillett

    Gert, ethnic cleansing is one of the most serious allegations and yet you have no evidence of it. You just parrot the anti-Zionist propaganda.

    I an understand you devoting your blog to the Palestinian cause after what you saw emblazoned across al-jazeera and press tv during Cast Lead and when you read the conclusions of the biased and amateurish Goldstone Report, but going all the way back to 1948, as you do, and just calling it “ethnic cleansing” shows either how little thought you have given to that 1947-49 war or how biased you actually are.

  39. Richard:

    Gert, ethnic cleansing is one of the most serious allegations and yet you have no evidence of it.

    Richard, like all Zionists you like to play with euphemisms to try and downplay Israel’s role in creating the massive refugee problem. You like to point out that the refugee problem was simply due to the war. Richard, when refugees aren’t allowed to return then that war is a war of conquest and the captured terrain has been ethnically cleansed for the benefit of the conquerors. Israel is hardly the only case in history in which ethnic cleansing served that purpose (of creating a state). Some would claim that ALL Nation States are born in that particular sin.

    Even more unfortunately for your position, the ethnic cleansing has continued to this day. Your point about the Occupation and colonisation of the WB being defensive is risible: colonisation has no military defensive purposes (unless Israel wants to use its own as human shields of course. The colonisation is an expression of Israel’s desire to capture the entirety of Palestine: the settler movement and their supporters at least say so with honesty. You, however are dishonest, to the point even where you deny being a Zionist! You are. What’s more, you’re a Zionist activist.

    On what happened in 1948 there is now very little dispute among modern historians, Israeli, Jewish or other. Here’s Shlomo Ben-Ami (briefly) on the subject:

    So, in 1948, what was born was a state, but also original superpower in many ways. We have prevailed over the invading Arab armies and the local population, which was practically evicted from Palestine, from the state of Israel, from what became the state of Israel, and this is how the refugee problem was born. Interestingly, the Arabs in 1948 lost a war that was, as far as they were concerned, lost already in 1936-1939, because they have fought against the British mandate and the Israeli or the Jewish Yishuv, the Jewish pre-state, and they were defeated then, so they came to the hour of trial in 1948 already as a defeated nation. That is, the War of 1948 was won already in 1936, and they had no chance to win the war in 1948. They were already a defeated nation when they faced the Israeli superpower that was emerging in that year.

    [snip]

    Yes, while, at the same time, a historian. I am trying to be as fair as possible when I read the past, but it’s a very interesting point, the one that you make here, about us trying to obliterate the memory of our war against the Palestinians, and the whole Israeli 1948 mythology is based on our war against the invading Arab armies, less so against the Palestinians, who were the weaker side in that confrontation, because it didn’t serve the myth of the creation of the state and of the nation. So we need to correct that. There is no way — there is no way we can fully compensate the refugees and the Palestinians, but we need to do our very, very best to find a way to minimize the harm that was done to this nation.

    [snip]
    AMY GOODMAN: And Shlomo Ben-Ami, your response to those who continue to say that at that time, at the time of the establishment of the state of Israel and before, that it really was empty, that Jews came to a place that was not populated.
    SHLOMO BEN-AMI: Of course, it is nonsense. I mean, it was populated. Obviously, it was populated. I mean, the notion that existed, I think it was Israel Zangwill, the first to say that we are — we came a nation without a land to a land without a people. Obviously, it was not true, but again, part of the tragedy was that the Palestinians, as such, did not have — the Palestinian peasants did not have the full control of their own destiny. Part of that land was bought by the Zionist organizations from Affendis, landowners living in Turkey or anywhere else throughout the Ottoman Empire, and these people were inevitably evicted by these kind of transactions. But as a whole, I think that not more than 6 or 7% of the entire surface of the state of Israel was bought. The rest of it was either taken over or won during the war.

  40. richardmillett

    Gert, if there was no war there would have been no Arabs leaving Palestine. Ben-Ami rightly talks of invading Arab armies. Did you expect the Jews to just not fight? Of course evictions took place, but that is totally different from an ethnically focused cleansing.

    In your view then every war can be an ethnic cleansing, because vast movements of people take place in all wars.

    It is a shame the Arab archives will never be opened. They stay suspiciously shut, so we cannot see possible orders for the Palestinians to leave and other orders of similar ilk.

    That said you still provide zero evidence of ethnic cleansing.

    Refusing to allow people to return is not an “ethnic cleansing” when those people need not have left in the first place. But once they had left then it would have been suicide to readmit them in the light of the massive bloodshed that had just taken place.

    As ever you look at everything in the light of 2010 and not 1949.

    So yes many people left and, as Ben-Ami says, some were evicted.

    I agree the war was lost due to 1936-1939 Arab uprising that was put down brutally by the British, but you can’t blame Israel for that.

    More fool the Arabs for going to war with the Jews in 1947 and then invading in 1948.

    Read my recent post. There could have been a Palestine on 80% of the British Mandate in 1937. The Arab leaders even rejected that. What foolish people they were.

  41. Richard:

    No people would ever voluntarily cede territory to foreigners: not the Arabs, not the Chinese, not the English, the French, Belgians or other. You start from a wrong premise: that European Jews somehow had a right to the land. They had not. The Arabs had the right to defend themselves. To think otherwise is racist. But the whole Zionist enterprise is deeply racist.

    Vast movements of people take place during wars. When no return is possible that is usually because the occupier wants to ethnically cleanse. When my grandfather fled the advancing Whermacht and got stranded in Northern France he was told to go back home. By who? By a German army commander. As a result my family wasn’t ethnically cleansed and sat out the occupation.

    These people did have to go: they had to make room for the Jewish State, just like today Palestinians are still being evicted and their land appropriated. Open your eyes.

    “What foolish people they were”. Yeah, real imbeciles, eh, for defending their land.

    The imbecile could have been you of course: had someone come and invaded your land with the purpose of removing you permanently you’d have done the same thing and defend (or be the imbecile). Towards Arabs, double standards as always…

    Richard, despite all your whining and whingeing about ‘the world being against Israel’, why do you think the only superpower in the world so strongly supports Israel? Hint: it’s is not a case of semitophilia…

  42. Gerty's Mate

    Gert
    “No people would ever voluntarily cede territory to foreigners”
    It wasn’t theirs to cede.
    It belonged to the British before them the Turks etc etc at certain points in history even the Jews.

    Your claim that
    “the whole Zionist enterprise is deeply racist”
    is a typical Gertism which somehow doesn’t have a problem with an Arab state in the land but a “Jewish” one is obvoiusly racist.
    99.5% of the Middle East is Arab, mostly Moslem but the idea of a Jewish state is suddenly racist.
    Why don’t you just admit that you don’t like Jews?

  43. richardmillett

    There ya go again accusing everything and everyone of being “racist”.

    The whole of the Middle East had been carved out and handed over, quite rightly, to the Arabs in huge swathes; Jordan, Iraq, Syria, Lebanon etc., and yet Gert cannot even allow a tiny Jewish state. And in 1937 we are talking literally 20% of the area now disputed by the Palestinians. And this 20% could have saved many Jewish lives. You propagate the same mentality now that prevailed then; “this country belongs to us only”.

    Shame the Arabs weren’t a bit more pragmatic and accepted the 80% offered in 1937. But greed ruled then, and still rules now.

    Meanwhile, the Palestinians continue to suffer due to this lack of pragmatism by their leaders. If they wanted a state they could have a viable one tomorrow but Gert continues to urge them to go for the lot, including Israel.

  44. Daniel Marks

    Gert,

    “If I end off conceding a point to the German’s tomorrow, it’s his fault”. – Dan the Man

    “So you make it a point to not concede any points to Germans, on the grounds that they’re German?” – Gertie

    Actually, no. Had it been the Americans tomorrow, I’d have said the same thing about them.

    The Germans are usually polite and intelligent. They invited me to a party last year in Tel Aviv and I went. They were almost all born after the holocaust and so I don’t blame them personally. That’s not to say that if the RAF hadn’t won the battle of Britain, they wouldn’t be wearing jackboots and I wouldn’t be a bar of soap.

    I avoid mentioning “The sins of the fathers” and save them for the moment when I feel I’m losing the debate. In six years, thank G-d, that hasn’t been necessary.

    love2love,

    I also began “hasbara” when I was about 13. I think I was the youngest speaker to get up on a “soap box” in Hyde Park.

    Round about the age of 15-16 I came to the sad realization that it’s much easier to beat the Gerts of this world in debate than it is to get them to reconsider their opinions. Basically, that’s why I see hasbara as fun but unimportant.

    Funnily, I gave a course in debating to Salam Fayyad’s son Abdula and his friends this year. He’s a very cultured, bright and open-minded young man. Abdula will make a worthy adversary for my children one day. I hope he’ll be their adversary and not their enemy.

    I’m beginning to ramble and my paragraphs are getting longer.

    Goodnight Gert old friend, and love2love new friend – whoever you really are.

    Goodnight “Gerty’s Mate” who I’ve known forever.

  45. Richard:

    The whole of the Middle East had been carved out and handed over, quite rightly, to the Arabs in huge swathes; […]

    HAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHAHHA.

    Perhaps you also believe the British “handed over” India to the Indians (I know some Cons like that).

    and yet Gert cannot even allow a tiny Jewish state.

    … is pure slander. I don’t dispute Israel’s right to exist. Like most states it derives its legitimacy from it existence. I’m simply amused at the lengths you will go to defend a banal case of nation building that cost another people dearly.

    Shame the Arabs weren’t a bit more pragmatic and accepted the 80% offered in 1937. But greed ruled then, and still rules now.

    You’re just priceless, you know that? Who is occupying who? Who has transferred nearly 10 % of its population into that occupied territory? Who is being greedy? And who, inverting the truth so much, is being deeply racist?

    Meanwhile, the Palestinians continue to suffer due to this lack of pragmatism by their leaders.

    You’re right pal, if you can’t blame it openly on the Palestinians, blame it on the leadership. Nothing to do with Zionism of course.

    I’m out of here, I’ve had more fruitful discussions with Ufologists, to be honest. Never thought I still meet a ‘not a Zionist’ type who’d be willing to defend the radio transcripts myth. But here he is. And he’s the Zionist-in-residence at Press TV. Aptly chosen, I guess.

    Daniel:

    You’re full of nationalistic shit, you know that? The Germans are like so, the Americans like this, the Belgians like that. And the Israelis like what have you I guess. Imbecile…

    You’re a head full of stereotypes.

  46. Gert-I finally had a look at the link you sent me and I’m a tad confused as to why you sent to me but seeing as you have let me just give you my opinion.

    Most of the people on this video as so scary that I thought it might be a spoof. But it’s not is it? I also think the guy who was asking the questions was quite funny and whilst he was a poor man’s Sacha Baron Cohen, he didn’t do too badly. As for the man holding the American flags with the vacant expression who couldn’t even answer the questions himself and turned to someone (his mum?!!!) as to what he should answer? Classic!! I actually laughed out loud (i.e LOL)

    Fortunately, this fringe group of extremists is exactly that, a fringe group. I take great pride that my people do not behead people for having different or extreme beliefs but gives them a platform and lets them speak out and mostly embarrass themselves. It’s kind of a self-auditing system and I suppose we’re secure enough as a nation in our prevailing belief system of tolerance and sharing and don’t fly into a blind panic to silence these extreme views by means of chopping off body parts.

    Thank G-d my people give a platform to all so we get to see all shades, the good the bad and the ugly. It’s what I would call a more honest and liberal approach rather than a totalitarian one dimensional “giving the party line” approach. I think you can guess who I mean so I’ll spare you the elaboration.

    Anyway lets change the subject. Gert do you think that Arafat was gay? And if so, why do you think there was an international media censorship on it? (it’s not a trick question, I’m just wondering about it)

    I must go out for my run now as much as I enjoy ranting at you, you are not worth me getting fat for. I don’t do fat darling.
    .

  47. richardmillett

    Gert has missed one small ethnic cleansing in the Middle East; the ethnic cleansing of Jews from Arab lands. 1 million of them to be precise. You see Gert cannot accept there was a Jewish presence in the Middle East worthy of a state. He acknowledges Israel’s existence just because it exists. That is the Hamas argument:

    It exists therefore it is; not that it has the right to exist.

    Gert ignores the Jews that have always lived in the Middle East and that were literally ethnically cleansed. When it comes to the Arabs Gert hears no evil, sees no evil and speaks no evil: “It’s the Zionists that did it and they are all just a bunch of racists.”

    Gert never offers any evidence, just polemical rhetoric and labels.

  48. Daniel Marks

    love2love,

    Your paragraphs have become quite exquisite. Your husband is a lucky man.

    I too enjoyed Gert’s interesting clip and thanked him cordially on his excellent, but somewhat solitary, blog.

    Gert,

    You say that I’m “You’re full of nationalistic shit…..Germans are like so, the Americans like this…”

    Specifically, I characterized German academics and journalists as “polite and intelligent”. While the Americans I characterized as “….a group of Presbyterians from the US”. This may seem like a bit of a generalization, however, they were led by their Presbyterian priest (or vicar or whatever) and did all claim to be Presbyterians.

    I suspect that your true anger may be over comments that I have made relating to Belgian stereotypes. Here I would say in my defense that I had never even known that such stereotypes existed.

    However, after you made an early reference to them, I contacted the very excellent Belgian Anti Defamation Institute and asked them for material on the subject. The final, if somewhat unexpected conclusion of this highy respected institute was:

    “The overall accuracy of the Belgian stereotype is 4.5/10, or 45%. Given that this is only slightly less than even chance, the Belgian Anti-defamation Institute recommends that the stereotypical view of Belgians continue to be disseminated, as there is no real harm done.”

    Their advice not withstanding, it now transpires that the negatives stereotypes that the BAI endorses, namely that Belgian men “have short penises” “have poor personal hygiene” and are “shitty lovers” have hit Gert a little too close to home.

    Therefore, I have unilaterally decided to set aside the recommendations of the Belgian Anti Defamation Institute and to henceforth cease and desist from referring to Greg’s poor personal hygiene, his lack of carnal prowess or, indeed, his little Willy Wonker (if, indeed, it exists).

    I do this in the name of harmony and in the hope that Gert and I might once again be friends, that our devotion to each other might serve as a brilliant example of reconciliation and that we might be a shining light unto nations, Jews, Moslems or Christians, blacks and whites alike – with or without good personal hygiene.

    Fair enough? Girt.

  49. richardmillett

    Daniel, I think Gert’s taken his toys away with him. Unless all those who support Israel’s right to exist admit they are nothing but a bunch of “racists” he doesn’t want to play.

  50. Daniel Marks

    I for one miss Gert a lot and am not ashamed to admit it.

    I urge all readers of this excellent blog who have learned to respect (and, dare I say it, love Gert) to go to his blog and tell him how much he is missed. Who was it that said:

    “A Jewish blog with no Gert is like a great man with no armpit.”

  51. Gerty's Mate

    You fools.
    I warned you all that he would leave!
    If only you had given him the respect he deserves.
    But alas it is too late now.
    The voice of reason has left us and we are alone.

  52. I know that we are not supposed to laugh at the downfall or misfortune of the enemy and G-d reprimanded the Israelites for rejoicing when the sea washed over the Egyptians explaining that they are his children too etc etc. I do subscribe to this and think it is actually very good spiritual advice. I promise I do. (am I being a bit defensive here?)

    However I am trying to get the better of myself but I find Daniel Marks last comment re stereo types to Gert hysterical and it totally cracked me up.

    Is that so bad?

    This is my confession and I will repent for it in due course and try and work on myself more so I can be a better Jew/human/Jewish human/human being/Zionist occupier and make you all so proud of me. You will be proud too Gert.

    If you come back, you will get a cyber version of a standing ovation.

  53. Gert,

    You must to come back! Only you can be argueing with the Zionists in good English. They are admireing you also.

  54. Daniel Marks

    STOP THE PRESSES!

    THE GERT SHALL RETURN!!

    Excellent news for all of you who are missing our most beloved anti-Zionist (though never antisemitic) Gert.

    Bowing to popular pressure from fans as diverse as Gert’s mate and Gamil Elias the now reclusive Gert has stated emphatically that he bold plans to return!

    Readers can see for themselves a recent posting on the most excellent Gert blog, and I quote:

    “Dear Daniel and Ruth:

    I’ll be back when there’s something worth rebutting. The last conversation had simply run its course.

    Lots of Love

    Gert”

  55. Gerty's Mate

    OK
    The race is on
    Who will be the first to post “something worth rebutting”
    My money’s on Richard