British Labour MP: “No justice in Israeli legal sytem. Palestinian children found guilty on flimsy evidence.”

Labour MP Lisa Nandy (Shadow Minister for Children) and Palestine Solidarity Campaign's Sara Apps in Parliament last night.

Labour MP Lisa Nandy (Shadow Minister for Children) and Palestine Solidarity Campaign’s Sara Apps in Parliament last night.

In the House of Commons last night Wigan’s Labour MP Lisa Nandy (Shadow Minister for Children) described how she found herself disturbed by a recent visit to an Israeli military court after seeing how “Palestinian children were treated” and how they were found “guilty on flimsy evidence”. She said there was “no justice in the (Israeli legal) system”. Judging by Nandy’s articles she is no friend of Israel anyway.

The event was commemorating one year since the publication of Children in Military Custody, a report compiled by nine lawyers on a UK Foreign Office funded trip to the West Bank. The nine lawyers reported on:

1. The formal differences affecting Palestinian and Israeli children respectively in Israel’s criminal justice process and

2. The welfare of Palestinian child suspects.

The lawyers hard at work. Jude Lanchin is on the left. (http://www.childreninmilitarycustody.org/background/)

The lawyers hard at work. Jude Lanchin is on the left. (http://www.childreninmilitarycustody.org/background/)

Last night’s event was held to review whether the situation had improved for Palestinian child suspects since last year. You wouldn’t be shocked to hear that the answer given by Jude Lanchin was “not much”.

Lanchin, one of the nine lawyers and who, herself, works for Bindmans solicitors, said that apart from two military orders nothing much had changed on the ground for Palestinian child suspects. She highlighted the main procedural differences still affecting Palestinian and Israeli children respectively in the criminal justice process (see page 7 of the report).

During the Q&A I asked Ms Lanchin whether the procedural differences in the criminal justice process between Israeli and Palestinian child suspects could possibly be attributed to the difference in the nature of offences committed by Israeli and Palestinian children with Palestinian children being mainly arrested for stone throwing; a security/terrorist type offence that can kill and maim Israelis.

Unbelievably, Lanchin responded that there was too little evidence of death or injury caused by stone throwing. As the nine lawyer committee reported last year (see para 46):

We were grateful to receive a response to a comprehensive list of enquiries from the Israeli Government; however, the evidence was limited to one stone-throwing incident in September 2011 which caused the death of an adult and a child, and sight of a photograph of a man with fairly severe facial injuries.

“The evidence was limited” to two deaths? How many more do these lawyers want?

This is the same argument put forward when Israel is accused of acting disproportionately in defending itself against Kassam rockets that have killed relatively few Israelis but which are, still, deadly.

Stones, like Kassam rockets, kill and maim. Ask the family of the murdered “adult and child”: Asher Palmer and his infant son, Yonatan.

Asher Palmer and his son both murdered by a Palestinian stone-thrower.

Asher Palmer and his son both murdered by a Palestinian stone-thrower.

The report also criticises Israel’s welfare treatment of Palestinian child suspects. However, the evidence relied on by the nine lawyer committee is both mainly anonymous AND provided by organisations traditionally hostile to Israel like Breaking The Silence, Btselem and Defence for Children International Palestine, to name but a few.

A main criticism of Israel in the report is Israel’s arrest of Palestinian child suspects very late at night. Israel’s Ministry of Justice responded that “nighttime arrests are necessary for security” (see paras 51 and 52 of the report). The report recommends that a summons should be used instead, but the Ministry of Justice replied that this is not feasible.

Israeli police or soldiers entering a Palestinian neighbourhood during the day to make arrests would have major security risks. As ever, Israel is criticised whatever it does.

Sir Geoffrey Bindman QC, of Bindmans solicitors (Jude Lanchin’s employer), was also on hand last night to condemn Israel as usual. He spoke of “Israel committing outrageous and illegal acts, yet getting away with it” and said it was all part of Israel’s strategy “to maintain the occupation and prevent a Palestinian state being created”.

In summary, the self elected jury of nine lawyers who put the initial report together last year did so while shamefully accepting at face value anonymous evidence from organisations traditionally hostile to Israel while rejecting the legitimate concerns of Israel’s Ministry of Justice.

However, it was the presence of another parliamentarian last night, which really spoke volumes: Jenny “Israel won’t be here forever” Tonge.

Tonge was sat next to Jude Lanchin while Lanchin repeatedly referred to the help that Tonge was offering the nine lawyer committee, especially in trying to get questions asked in Parliament about Israel.

If there was ever evidence of the contempt of court in which this nine lawyer committee should now be held, what more does one need than this?

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345 responses to “British Labour MP: “No justice in Israeli legal sytem. Palestinian children found guilty on flimsy evidence.”

  1. Judith Hughes

    Excellent article as usual, Richard. Here is one of the more sensible articles written for Progress Online. http://www.progressonline.org.uk/2013/06/18/syria-how-did-we-reach-this-point/ However, I continue to despair at the same tired old arguments about Israel repeated ad nauseum by the same old usual suspects on the left of the British political spectrum. We must keep fighting to make Israel’s case heard.

  2. Christopher Proudlove

    What action have the above mentioned people taken to prevent the Palestinian Arab children and youths throwing the potentiallly lethal rocks and stones? It is seen as a right of passage among Palestinian Arabs to be arrested for committing such acts. Parents, it is said, encourage their children to do this and, indeed, become martyrs. Media crews have been known to pay children to throw stones at Israeli soldiers. It is good publicity for Palestinian Arabs to have their children throwing rocks at armed Israeli soldiers, creating a false impression of the situation. When are we going to see the likes of the people mentioned above calling on Hamas and Fatah to pursue the path of peace?

  3. We need to get facts like this out . The truth is that thousands of Palestinian Arabs would not have a life at all if it wasn’t for Israel ! Between the years 1967 to 1994, when Israel was responsible for their welfare, the lives of thousands of Palestinian Arabs were saved. The Israeli’s totally eradicated from the Palestinian population, poliomyelitis, neonatal-tetanus and measles. Also, Israel dramatically reduced the death rate of Palestinian newborns from over 60/1000 to 19/1000 within those 27 years of Israel’s presence.

  4. The usual suspects blaming Israel whatever it does. So better fo what is right and ignore them. Just find out who is paying them for their hatchet job.

  5. One would think that responsible people would be working to help kids not be arrested in the first place. instead these do gooders condone stone throwing with the excuse that the low death rate does not provide for suitable statistics to be drawn. How shocking that so called educated people can allow their personal prejudices to prevent them tackling the real problem of child abuse prevalent amongst Arab Palestinians.

  6. You focus on one aspect here Richard, the night time arrests for security reasons. But you have not mentioned other issues such as children being held without access to a responsible adult, the failure to record interviews (which, after all, would protect both suspect and interrogator) and the fact that suspects are presented with statements to sign in Hebrew rather than Arabic, regardless of their linguistic skills. Nor have you mentioned the fact that suspects tend not to meet their lawyers until they are actually arraigned in court. These are pretty basic legal safeguards common to many legal systems, not special treatment demanded for Palestinians.

    • richardmillett

      I think the “being held without access to a responsible adult” is one of the improvements as is access to a lawyer. What is your answer to the nighttime arrest situation? What is your answer to the Palestinian stone-throwers possibly being treated differently procedure-wise due to the security/terrorist/political nature of their offence? I didn’t discuss everything as the post would become monotonous. I also didn’t deal with the claim that Palestinian children are transported to prisons and courts inside Israel which is alleged to be in breach of the Geneva Convention. But what is Israel supposed to do?

    • The legal protection offered by the State of Israel goes far beyond that of any other country in the region. Try going to Iran ahd criticising their legal system!………

  7. Stone throwing is a a common means of execution by Islamists and used to “punish” female members who are accused of slights to their family “honor”.

  8. One point that should be highlighted is that very often these ‘children’ are great big wallops of 15 or 16 who have the physical strength of a grown man, and indeed are treated as ‘sojers’ by their own communities. This is evident from Sahar Francis’ own film about Palestinian Arab ‘child’ prisoners.

    • as to African child soldiers as best I know the debate is whether they should stop being considered children at the age of 14 or 15 or maybe even 16. But nobody seems to consider granting them child status up to 18.

      Back in the “good ol’ times” while still in school I was told that Southerners (not quite clear if Southerners started in Milan or only in Rome?) “mature” faster than us inhabitants of a cooler climate. Also we were told that “they” had – in synch with their climate – hotter blood than we did.

      I kid you not and I can’t quite believe that such a common belief dies in a few decades – therefore I always wonder, why of all the southerners there is an exemption for the perception made for the “Palestinians” but not for other Arabs.

  9. Tony Jacobs

    “One would think that responsible people would be working to help kids not be arrested in the first place. instead these do gooders condone stone throwing with the excuse that the low death rate does not provide for suitable statistics to be drawn. How shocking that so called educated people can allow their personal prejudices to prevent them tackling the real problem of child abuse prevalent amongst Arab Palestinians.” Sharon Klaff, I think you said it all..

  10. Tony Jacobs

    Another job well done. Thank you Richard, please keep on lifting stones and revealing these loathsome creatures.

  11. [“The evidence was limited” to two deaths? How many more do these lawyers want?]

    Did you manage to ask that?

    But, as long as the occupation continues, it will be relatively easy to make Israel look bad, since putting any children in prison, or even taking them into custody, so long as their oppressed or repressed a priori situation remains sympathetic, looks bad. It just does.

    The real solution to a plague of mosquitoes, which all these attacks on Israel’s image and moral status comprise, is not nets, or even inoculation, never mind trying to shoot each individual mosquito down: it is to drain the swamp that give them birth or viability, which is the occupation.

    So long as IDF soldiers have to arrest children throwing stones, there will be a problem.

    • Yes, let’s give the mosquitoes what they want; the death of those they bite… That will solve the conflict. Mind you, I prefer the conflict, especially since Israel is not losing it.

      • [Yes, let’s give the mosquitoes what they want; the death of those they bite]

        How about draining the swamp in which they breed?

      • Yep: just cut the money trail. Stop all aid to ‘Palestinians’ until they become serious about negotiating.

      • and how would you stop the media from promoting images of their presenting their starving babies?

        Once upon a time what was going on in Iraq didn’t get much press. MIght have been because they weren’t into the parading of babies business

        But the Palestinians have a considerable following and lots of them with access to the media.

        There would be a public shitstorm and “everybody” would demand the impossible i.e. start pampering them again. That’ll appease them and send them to the negotiation table.

        BTW I’d love to see that the money to for example Gaza would stop getting allocated as Kindergeld (child money – German state support per child)

      • Starving babies? What the hell? Why would ‘Palestinians’ do worse than other Arab countries, provided they don’t spend time and money in agressing Israel all the time. On the contrary, giving them money perpetuates their problems because they can focus on their hate of Israel without worrying about finding and creating work.

  12. So if Israel withdraws and gives the Palestinians their own nation, there will be peace? Like in Sinai, S. Lebanon, and Gaza? That sort of peace we can do without.
    And how much land will Israel have to withdraw from in order to satisfy Hamas, who state in their charter (numerous times) that they not only want every inch of land ever claimed by Muslims, but their religious duty is to kill every Jew in existence?

    • We, Tony? Is Stanmore declaring independence?

      • Tony Jacobs

        We sane and rational people, Joe; as opposed to ‘head in the sand idealists’, or fanatics.

      • Tony Jacobs

        Don’t obfuscate, answer the question please.

      • Edward, not all Muslims are islamofascists, pretty much like not all Christians are Gun-toting loons and not all Jews are Kahanaites and not all Hindus are BJP. Not all the English are BNP/EDL. Not all Americans are kkk or all French FN.
        True there are 1.3 Muslims in the world but they aren’t a monolith or a coherent force. They are from.many lands and vastly differing cultures.
        If you are jewish, you’d know how we’ve suffered from stereotyping, and blind hatred

      • Tony Jacobs

        Joe, to paraphrase you a little; not all fascists are Jew haters, pretty much like not all Christians are Gun-toting loons and not all Jews are Kahanaites and not all Hindus are BJP. Not all the English are BNP/EDL. Not all Americans are kkk or all French FN.
        True there are millions of fascists in the world but they aren’t a monolith or a coherent force. They are from.many lands and vastly differing cultures.
        If you are jewish, you’d know how we’ve suffered from stereotyping, and blind hatred

      • Tony, one of those “as a Jew” Zionists? What’s that when it’s at home? You may not know this but, my brother in law’s family is Moroccan Jewish. My sister in law’s is Iraqi jewish. One family lives in Kochav Yair, the other in Hod Hasharon.
        And as you know, because we’ve talked about this on Facebook, I did tree years in Golani. I think I know slightly more than tel Aviv and Natbag.

      • Tony Jacobs

        Joe, you wrote; “Tony, one of those “as a Jew” Zionists? What’s that when it’s at home? You may not know this but, my brother in law’s family is Moroccan Jewish. My sister in law’s is Iraqi jewish. One family lives in Kochav Yair, the other in Hod Hasharon.
        And as you know, because we’ve talked about this on Facebook, I did tree years in Golani. I think I know slightly more than tel Aviv and Natbag”

        Well that’s exactly what I mean. You’re so eager to prove that you are a Jew and a Zionist because you are related to some. I also served in the IDF and have family in Israel. That doesn’t make me anything special, any more than it does you. Being a Jew might make you an expert amongst the gentiles, but for fellow Jews, Israelis and ex-IDF, you’re just another Yid with an opinion.

    • People who declare themselves sane and rational in order to score points are pretty much like North Korea declaring itself a People’s Democratic Republic.

      • richardmillett

        Joe, in all seriousness what should Israel do tomorrow for there to be a peace in which the security of Israel’s citizens is safeguarded? You, Jonathan Freedland et al say “end the occupation”. Does that mean a unilateral withdrawal to the pre-6 Day War Israel? Would that not be dangerous for Israeli citizens and civilian aircraft? I always thought it took two to tango but it seems to me that yourself, Jonathan Freedland, Hannah Weisfeld, Peter Beinart and Daniel Levy want Israel to dance the last waltz instead.

      • Isn’t JoeM a real real zionist? :)

      • Tony Jacobs

        He’s one of those ‘as a Jew’ Zionists. The ones who want to give it all back, except for Tel Aviv and Ben Gurion airport.
        He probably thinks that all Israelis are descendants of Ashkenazi accountants and lecturers, who emigrated from Hampstead Garden Suburb.

      • Israel is the regional economic, technological and military superpower, with a well-educated, quite well motivated and largely middle class population. As such, it holds most, if not all of the cards when it comes to the Palestinians.
        Peace, by the way, is not a favour that Israel will be doing the Palestinians, the Arabs, the Iranians or the rest of the world.
        It is first and foremost an Israeli interest to disengage from the Palestinians – not unilaterally, since that doesn’t give the other side a stake in the future.
        The occupation has had a corrosive effect on both Israeli domestic life (price tag terrorism, for instance) and on world Jews’ ties with Israel. True, the latter may not seem to you to be that important, but Israel itself regards what it terms the diaspora as an asset.
        Greater minds than both you and I, such as Stanley Fisher, Meir Dagan and six former heads of the Shabak, have already said that without an agreement with the Palestinians, Israel’s economic miracle will come to a crashing halt and the country will become a binational nightmare, neither Jewish nor democratic.
        I know you’ll cite the Begin-Sadat centre’s demography report, as against the Israeli government’s own figures and that of Sergio Della Pergula that I go with. But as I have asked you before, would you like to give all the over 18s between the Jordan and the Med a vote and see what happens to the Jewish and democratic state? All for the sake of about 450,000 settlers?
        Believe me, I have a lot of empathy for the settlers. They have, after all, been the biggest pawns in this mess, sent by successive Israeli governments in full knowledge that they would be returned to Israel as part of any deal.
        I can’t speak for Jonathan F, Hannah W, or any other person on the list you supplied – we are all individuals (cf, Life of Brian) and therefore not a monolith.
        For myself, I think Israel for its own future as a Jewish and democratic state as envisioned by the founders (read that notoriously anti-Israel document, the Declaration of Independence, which in the absence of a written constitution is a “constitution”), can well afford to negotiate on the basis of the 1967 lines. And it can also afford to be a little bit more compassionate towards those it occupies as well as its own Palestinian citizens.
        As for Jerusalem, I’m sure there’s a functional solution to the old city and I’m certain that neither your ancestors nor mine prayed towards Shuafat, Wadi Joz, Tzur Bakhar, Abu Dis etc.
        This may or may not answer your question, but thanks for being civil and remember, this isn’t doing the Palestinians a favour, they’d have to start being responsible adults.

      • Tony Jacobs

        So Joe, is it that you can’t answer my question, or you won’t answer my question?
        Further, you state below that: “It is first and foremost an Israeli interest to disengage from the Palestinians – not unilaterally, since that doesn’t give the other side a stake in the future.” Well if there can’t be a unilateral withdrawal and Hamas refuses to negotiate, how the hell can you still hold Israel – the only party actually willing to negotiate – responsible for the lack of negotiations? You obviously cannot hold that opinion and be regarded as sane and rational.

      • Tony Jacobs

        Joe M, the penny has just dropped. You’re Joseph Millis aren’t you?

      • Yeah, and many others as well. As usual with him, Israel is responsible for everything bad: Hamas, Hezbollah. Everything bad Arabs do has a cause in Israeli politics, especially if it is Likud of course. Ludicrous and unsupported by facts, of course, but Millis never lets fact go in the way of his lunacies.

      • As-a-jew Zionist? Gibor gadol attah. Gibor gadol me`tzafon London, achi.
        As we have already discussed on Facebook some time back, I did my three years on the Golan and in south Lebanon. Where were you?

      • Tony Jacobs

        Yes Joe, I am a big man and a tough guy. I’ve seen you at the Jewish Living Expo in Wembley Stadium and if North London is good enough for you, then it’s good enough for me. Served in S. Lebanon and Gaza, ’86-88, just like all my friends.
        I don’t know if you have an exquisite sense of irony or are just a rank hypocrite with a gargantuan and ugly ego.

      • [You, Jonathan Freedland et al say “end the occupation”. Does that mean a unilateral withdrawal to the pre-6 Day War Israel?]

        For Jonathan Freedland and his sort, it means the Geneva Accord, or slightly modified versions thereof, which would be a settlement negotiated and agreed by both parties.

      • [It is first and foremost an Israeli interest to disengage from the Palestinians – not unilaterally, since that doesn’t give the other side a stake in the future.]

        Actually, in a sense, it does, since it suggests to them they +drove+ you out, and can continue the war, which is arguably what Gazans decided when they elected Hamas.

        It is precisely unilateralism that led to the present situation.

        It is preferable to leave with +an agreement+.

    • Tony, I don’t think I’ve ever denied that I was Joe Millis. It depends which computer I’ve logged in on. Or which phone.
      I think I made it clear that Israel is powerful enough and economically strong enough to afford to agree to talks on the basis of the 67 lines. And that means not to act unilaterally, as in Gaza or Lebanon. Unilateralism doesn’t work because, quite simply only one side has a stake in it working.
      I don’t think I obfuscated or dodged your question. I refer you to the answer I gave Richard at 4,41. It probably won’t satisfy you. You probably disagree with it, too.
      For my part, I’d really love to know what the far right’s vision for Israel is, as a Jewish and Democratic state as envisaged by its founders. I still don’t know how you can reconcile a Jewish democracy with either a sizeable non-Jewish minority (upwards of 40%) or a non-Jewish minority.

      • Tony Jacobs

        I don’t know or care what the extremists of the far right vision for Israel is.That is just another of your pointless distractions. I simply want to know how you think Israel is responsible for Hamas’s refusal to accept their right to life, let alone exist as a country? You completely avoided answering at 4.41 am. Maybe you can do so now?

      • Tony, I did not avoid. It’s very clear. It’s Realpolitik.
        As Israel has already negotiated with Hamas, albeit indirectly, to secure the release of Gilad Shalit and to bring an end to Pillar of Defence, I don’t see what the problem is. And with the exception of a few Salafist groups firing missiles – and these groups have been slapped down by the Gazans – it has been very quiet.
        If there are shared interests, which there are, then there will be negotiations.
        So again I ask, how do you reconcile your ideology with a desire to retain Israel as a Jewish and Democratic state as envisioned by the founders and all Zionists? That’s what I believe in. What’s your belief?

    • [So if Israel withdraws and gives the Palestinians their own nation, there will be peace?]

      If Israel comes to an agreement with the P.A., endorsed by the Arabs states, there is a better chance of peace than if Israel tries to hold on to the West Bank and all Jerusalem indefinitely. In the latter case, there will never peace, Israel will exist in permanent siege, and no siege lasts forever. The siege is either broken or the citadel falls. If Israel doesn’t come to an agreement, there is no evidence the siege will ever be broken, especially as U.S. power wanes, and the E.U. evinces that, absent a Geneva Accord agreement, Israeli goods will be increasingly embargoed, Israel’s becoming more and more isolated.

      Anyone who knows Jewish history should be wary of returning to an era of Judean siege. Ancient Jews were often confident they could weather sieges, but usually they were wrong.

      Without a peace settlement, Arabs and Muslims globally will have an incentive/pretext to fight Israel in perpetuity. You may be strong yesterday and today, but that doesn’t mean you will be strong tomorrow. No nation state or territory has survived indefinite siege. None.

      • Israel is not under siege and is not boycotted at all except by the Muslim States and to their detriment. In fact, Israel cannot be boycotted, its products not being anymore the kind that can be. Israel ain’t apartheid and it ain’t South Africa.

      • Well, even the US won’t last indefinitely. But that is not the point. Considering the conditions during these last 65 years, it is clear that Israel is much better off today than it was ever before. Arabs are now in internal troubpes that were postponed by their conflict with Israel. And the gap is widening. Energy and water-independant Israel will terminate hopes of economic destruction. Survival of Arab states is at stake, as we see in Syria and now Lebanon. The Karthoum No to negotiations is now gatting his payback.

      • Absolutely spot on. I wish I’d read this post before writing my last one, I’d have saved myself the time and trouble.

      • Well, Jose, I hope you are right. Here in the UK it very much feels as though Israel is increasingly isolated and under siege, and that, absent a peace agreement with the Palestinians, it will only get worse.

        I do not say these things because I want them to be true.

      • Israel is getting stronger by the minute, just as the Arab states around it fall apart.
        As the USA wanes, new allies appear at Israels side. Truer, more trustworthy and righteous nations, like Canada.
        Israel HAS survived constant aggression for over 3000 years and we are still here. No nation can survive making constant war, every empire crumbles, the most outwardly successful often do so from within. Remember the greatest and most dedicated warrior culture ever? Whatever happened to the Spartans?
        Israel has survived either by the grace of G-d, sheer bloody determination, or a combination of the two, but giving up and giving in has never been an option.

  13. Hamas Charter: Please Note – MidEastWeb provides the Hamas Charter and introduction for your information. MidEastWeb does not support Hamas!!

    Introduction

    In 1987, the Arabs living in the territories occupied by Israeli in the 6-Day war began a series of riots and violent confrontations now known as the First Intifada, a movement quite independent from PLO leadership. Soon after, Islamic militants founded the Hamas movement.

    The Hamas was formed from the Mujama movement, which had been a political party with no military ambitions that was given some encouragement by Israel earlier in the decade, as a means of countering the influence of the PLO, and perhaps because the opposition of the Mujama to an international conference that would adjudicate the problem of Palestine, coincided with the policies of the Begin and Shamir governments.

    Hamas name
    Hamas is an acronym of Harakat al Mawqawama al Islamiyya meaning “Islamic Resistance Movement.” The word Hamas also means “zeal.” The H in Hamas is an Arabic ‘Het and it is sounded as a pharyngeal fricative, a sound made deep in the throat like the ‘Het in “Shalom ‘Haver” made famous by President Bill Clinton. The “a”s in Hamas are pronounced approximately like the “a” in “cat.” In Hebrew, the a’s are pronounced as “ah.”

    Hamas capsule history
    The Hamas has a ‘military’ wing, Izz ad-Din al-Qassam Brigades, that engages in terrorist acts and a ‘civilian’ wing that supposedly confines itself to education and ‘good works.’ Hamas perpetrated numerous suicide bombings and other terrorist attacks, at first in order to sabotage the Oslo Accords and peace process, and then as part of the Second Intifada. Israel successively assassinated its leaders, Sheikh Ahmed Yassin and Sheikh Ahmed Rantissi, forcing the leadership underground. However, in January of 2006, candidates representing the Hamas swept to victory in Palestinian elections, overcoming the traditional leadership of the Fateh and PLO. In June of 2006, Hamas affiliates captured an Israeli soldier by tunneling across the border between Gaza and Israel In February of 2007, Hamas, Fateh and other factions entered a unity government in a deal brokered by Saudi Arabia and Egypt. However, in practice, Hamas ruled Gaza on its own. It formed the Executive Force over the protests of the Fatah and Palestinian Authority. The Executive force was a combination internal police force, political force to be used against Hamas opponents and terrorist group. In June of 2007, Hamas ousted Fatah forces from Gaza in a bloody coup, throwing Fatah members off the roofs of buildings after shooting them in the knees. At least one Fatah member was sliced into steaks that were sent to his family. Since Gaza had been totally evacuated by Israel in the unilateral disengagement of 2005, Hamas currently (2009) rules Gaza as a de facto state government. It has used Gaza as a base for launching rocket attacks against Israel. On June 19, 2008, Israel and Hamas concluded a “lull” or Tahdiya agreement that was brokered by Egypt. Hamas, but not Israel, declared that this truce was for a period of six months. Rocket fire from Gaza was reduced but not stopped. Hamas greatly stepped up smuggling of arms through tunnels beneath the Egyptian controlled Rafah crossing. Hamas dismissed the international monitors that were to have controlled the Rafah crossing, and then declared that Gaza is “under siege.” Israel retaliated for rocket fire by closing the Israeli crossings periodically. On December 18, 2008, Hamas declared that they would not renew the truce. Thereafter, Hamas and associated organizations directed a rain of rocket and mortar fire at Israeli towns and cities, reaching as far as 45 KM away with Grad rockets that had been smuggled in during the lull period. On December 26, 2008, Israel launched operation Cast Lead, attacking the Hamas in Gaza at first by air and later in a limited ground invasion.

    Click here for details of Hamas history.

    Hamas Principles
    The principles of the Hamas are stated in their Covenant or Charter, given in full below. Following are highlights.

    “Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it.” (The Martyr, Imam Hassan al-Banna, of blessed memory).

    “The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Muslim generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up. ”

    “There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors.”

    “After Palestine, the Zionists aspire to expand from the Nile to the Euphrates. When they will have digested the region they overtook, they will aspire to further expansion, and so on. Their plan is embodied in the “Protocols of the Elders of Zion”, and their present conduct is the best proof of what we are saying.”

    The charter is a rather classical Islamist document, applied to the local issues. It declares that Jihad (in the sense of armed battle) is the only solution. It cites the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, a ludicrous anti-Semitic forgery.

    The “Zionists” and the freemasons and others are blamed for what Hamas and radical Islamists see as the major calamities of the world, especially the French Revolution.

    One of the most ominous aspects of the Charter however, is this Hadith:

    Moreover, if the links have been distant from each other and if obstacles, placed by those who are the lackeys of Zionism in the way of the fighters obstructed the continuation of the struggle, the Islamic Resistance Movement aspires to the realisation of Allah’s promise, no matter how long that should take. The Prophet, Allah bless him and grant him salvation, has said:

    “The Day of Judgement will not come about until Muslims fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Muslims, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews.” (related by al-Bukhari and Muslim).

    The implication is clear: Allah promised that the Jews will be murdered, and the Hamas “aspires to the realisation of Allah’s promise, no matter how long that should take.”

    Hamas and the Muslim Brotherhood
    Some observers deny the relation between the Hamas and the Muslim Brotherhood. However, the Charter states:

    The Islamic Resistance Movement is one of the wings of Muslim Brotherhood in Palestine. Muslim Brotherhood Movement is a universal organization which constitutes the largest Islamic movement in modern times. It is characterised by its deep understanding, accurate comprehension and its complete embrace of all Islamic concepts of all aspects of life, culture, creed, politics, economics, education, society, justice and judgement, the spreading of Islam, education, art, information, science of the occult and conversion to Islam.

    Moreover, the Charter quotes Hassan Al-Banna, a Nazi sympathizer who founded the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt. There is no doubt that the Hamas views itself as a part of the Muslim Brotherhood and an ideological heir of al Banna. The Muslim Brotherhood spawned a number of radical Islamist movements including Al-Qaeda.

    Current Hamas Positions
    Some analysts insist that the Hamas is becoming more pragmatic in its ideology following assumption of a political role. The evidence for this is view is conflicting, and it is beclouded by the practice of dissemblance that was copied from Al-Banna and Sayyed Qutb. Recent statements by leaders include the following:

    Imam Yousif al-Zahar of Hamas said in his sermon at the Katib Wilayat mosque in Gaza that “Jews are a people who cannot be trusted. They have been traitors to all agreements. Go back to history. Their fate is their vanishing.” Ref IHT 1 April 08
    Sheik Yunus al-Astal, a Hamas legislator and imam, in a column in the weekly newspaper Al Risalah in 2008 discussed a Koranic verse suggesting that “suffering by fire is the Jews’ destiny in this world and the next.” Astal concluded “Therefore we are sure that the Holocaust is still to come upon the Jews.Ref IHT 1 April 08
    “We will not rest until we destroy the Zionist entity” stated Hamas leader Fathi Hammad in Gaza on Friday January 2nd 2009 – ref — BBC 2 January 09

    In a sermon aired on Hamas’ Al-Aqsa television, cleric Yunis Al Astal stated, “Today, Rome is the capital of the Catholics, or the Crusader capital, which has declared its hostility to Islam, and has planted the brothers of apes and pigs in Palestine in order to prevent the reawakening of Islam.
    “I believe that our children, or our grandchildren, will inherit our jihad and our sacrifices, and, Allah willing, the commanders of the conquest will come from among them”

    He maintained that Rome would become, “”an advanced post for the Islamic conquests, which will spread though Europe in its entirety, and then will turn to the two Americas, even Eastern Europe.” Ref- Fox 14 Apr. 2008

    Other statements are more moderate in tone, but Hamas has repeatedly refused international community demands to recognize the right of Israel to exist, abrogate its charter and abide by the previous commitments of the Palestinian Authority

    Ami Isseroff

    Updated Jan 11, 2009

    Please Note – MidEastWeb provides this document and introduction for your information. MidEastWeb does not support Hamas!!

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    The Covenant of the Islamic Resistance Movement (Hamas)

    18 August 1988

    In The Name Of The Most Merciful Allah

    “Ye are the best nation that hath been raised up unto mankind: ye command that which is just, and ye forbid that which is unjust, and ye believe in Allah. And if they who have received the scriptures had believed, it had surely been the better for them: there are believers among them, but the greater part of them are transgressors. They shall not hurt you, unless with a slight hurt; and if they fight against you, they shall turn their backs to you, and they shall not be helped. They are smitten with vileness wheresoever they are found; unless they obtain security by entering into a treaty with Allah, and a treaty with men; and they draw on themselves indignation from Allah, and they are afflicted with poverty. This they suffer, because they disbelieved the signs of Allah, and slew the prophets unjustly; this, because they were rebellious, and transgressed.” (Al-Imran – verses 109-111).

    Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it” (The Martyr, Imam Hassan al-Banna, of blessed memory).

    “The Islamic world is on fire. Each of us should pour some water, no matter how little, to extinguish whatever one can without waiting for the others.” (Sheikh Amjad al-Zahawi, of blessed memory).

    In The Name Of The Most Merciful Allah

    Introduction
    Praise be unto Allah, to whom we resort for help, and whose forgiveness, guidance and support we seek; Allah bless the Prophet and grant him salvation, his companions and supporters, and to those who carried out his message and adopted his laws – everlasting prayers and salvation as long as the earth and heaven will last. Hereafter:

    O People:
    Out of the midst of troubles and the sea of suffering, out of the palpitations of faithful hearts and cleansed arms; out of the sense of duty, and in response to Allah’s command, the call has gone out rallying people together and making them follow the ways of Allah, leading them to have determined will in order to fulfill their role in life, to overcome all obstacles, and surmount the difficulties on the way. Constant preparation has continued and so has the readiness to sacrifice life and all that is precious for the sake of Allah.

    Thus it was that the nucleus (of the movement) was formed and started to pave its way through the tempestuous sea of hopes and expectations, of wishes and yearnings, of troubles and obstacles, of pain and challenges, both inside and outside.

    When the idea was ripe, the seed grew and the plant struck root in the soil of reality, away from passing emotions, and hateful haste. The Islamic Resistance Movement emerged to carry out its role through striving for the sake of its Creator, its arms intertwined with those of all the fighters for the liberation of Palestine. The spirits of its fighters meet with the spirits of all the fighters who have sacrificed their lives on the soil of Palestine, ever since it was conquered by the companions of the Prophet, Allah bless him and grant him salvation, and until this day.

    This Covenant of the Islamic Resistance Movement (HAMAS), clarifies its picture, reveals its identity, outlines its stand, explains its aims, speaks about its hopes, and calls for its support, adoption and joining its ranks. Our struggle against the Jews is very great and very serious. It needs all sincere efforts. It is a step that inevitably should be followed by other steps. The Movement is but one squadron that should be supported by more and more squadrons from this vast Arab and Islamic world, until the enemy is vanquished and Allah’s victory is realised.

    Thus we see them coming on the horizon “and you shall learn about it hereafter” “Allah hath written, Verily I will prevail, and my apostles: for Allah is strong and mighty.” (The Dispute – verse 21).

    “Say to them, This is my way: I invite you to Allah, by an evident demonstration; both I and he who followeth me; and, praise be unto Allah! I am not an idolator.” (Joseph – verse 107).

    Hamas (means) strength and bravery -(according to) Al-Mua’jam al-Wasit: c1.

    Definition of the Movement

    Ideological Starting-Points

    Article One:
    The Islamic Resistance Movement: The Movement’s programme is Islam. From it, it draws its ideas, ways of thinking and understanding of the universe, life and man. It resorts to it for judgement in all its conduct, and it is inspired by it for guidance of its steps.

    The Islamic Resistance Movement’s Relation With the Muslim Brotherhood Group:

    Article Two:
    The Islamic Resistance Movement is one of the wings of Muslim Brotherhood in Palestine. Muslim Brotherhood Movement is a universal organization which constitutes the largest Islamic movement in modern times. It is characterised by its deep understanding, accurate comprehension and its complete embrace of all Islamic concepts of all aspects of life, culture, creed, politics, economics, education, society, justice and judgement, the spreading of Islam, education, art, information, science of the occult and conversion to Islam.

    Structure and Formation

    Article Three:
    The basic structure of the Islamic Resistance Movement consists of Muslims who have given their allegiance to Allah whom they truly worship, – “I have created the jinn and humans only for the purpose of worshipping” – who know their duty towards themselves, their families and country. In all that, they fear Allah and raise the banner of Jihad in the face of the oppressors, so that they would rid the land and the people of their uncleanliness, vileness and evils.

    “But we will oppose truth to vanity, and it shall confound the same; and behold, it shall vanish away.” (Prophets – verse 18).

    Article Four:
    The Islamic Resistance Movement welcomes every Muslim who embraces its faith, ideology, follows its programme, keeps its secrets, and wants to belong to its ranks and carry out the duty. Allah will certainly reward such one.

    Time and Place Extent of the Islamic Resistance Movement:

    Article Five:
    Time extent of the Islamic Resistance Movement: By adopting Islam as its way of life, the Movement goes back to the time of the birth of the Islamic message, of the righteous ancestor, for Allah is its target, the Prophet is its example and the Koran is its constitution. Its extent in place is anywhere that there are Muslims who embrace Islam as their way of life everywhere in the globe. This being so, it extends to the depth of the earth and reaches out to the heaven.

    “Dost thou not see how Allah putteth forth a parable; representing a good word, as a good tree, whose root is firmly fixed in the earth, and whose branches reach unto heaven; which bringeth forth its fruit in all seasons, by the will of its Lord? Allah propoundeth parables unto men, that they may be instructed.” (Abraham – verses 24-25).

    Characteristics and Independence:

    Article Six:
    The Islamic Resistance Movement is a distinguished Palestinian movement, whose allegiance is to Allah, and whose way of life is Islam. It strives to raise the banner of Allah over every inch of Palestine, for under the wing of Islam followers of all religions can coexist in security and safety where their lives, possessions and rights are concerned. In the absence of Islam, strife will be rife, oppression spreads, evil prevails and schisms and wars will break out.

    How excellent was the Muslim poet, Mohamed Ikbal, when he wrote:

    “If faith is lost, there is no security and there is no life for him who does not adhere to religion. He who accepts life without religion, has taken annihilation as his companion for life.”

    The Universality of the Islamic Resistance Movement:

    Article Seven:
    As a result of the fact that those Muslims who adhere to the ways of the Islamic Resistance Movement spread all over the world, rally support for it and its stands, strive towards enhancing its struggle, the Movement is a universal one. It is well-equipped for that because of the clarity of its ideology, the nobility of its aim and the loftiness of its objectives.

    On this basis, the Movement should be viewed and evaluated, and its role be recognised. He who denies its right, evades supporting it and turns a blind eye to facts, whether intentionally or unintentionally, would awaken to see that events have overtaken him and with no logic to justify his attitude. One should certainly learn from past examples.

    The injustice of next-of-kin is harder to bear than the smite of the Indian sword.

    “We have also sent down unto thee the book of the Koran with truth, confirming that scripture which was revealed before it; and preserving the same safe from corruption. Judge therefore between them according to that which Allah hath revealed; and follow not their desires, by swerving from the truth which hath come unto thee. Unto every of you have we given a law, and an open path; and if Allah had pleased, he had surely made you one people; but he hath thought it fit to give you different laws, that he might try you in that which he hath given you respectively. Therefore strive to excel each other in good works; unto Allah shall ye all return, and then will he declare unto you that concerning which ye have disagreed.” (The Table, verse 48).

    The Islamic Resistance Movement is one of the links in the chain of the struggle against the Zionist invaders. It goes back to 1939, to the emergence of the martyr Izz al-Din al Kissam and his brethren the fighters, members of Muslim Brotherhood. It goes on to reach out and become one with another chain that includes the struggle of the Palestinians and Muslim Brotherhood in the 1948 war and the Jihad operations of the Muslim Brotherhood in 1968 and after.

    Moreover, if the links have been distant from each other and if obstacles, placed by those who are the lackeys of Zionism in the way of the fighters obstructed the continuation of the struggle, the Islamic Resistance Movement aspires to the realisation of Allah’s promise, no matter how long that should take. The Prophet, Allah bless him and grant him salvation, has said:

    “The Day of Judgement will not come about until Muslims fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Muslims, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews.” (related by al-Bukhari and Muslim).

    The Slogan of the Islamic Resistance Movement:

    Article Eight:
    Allah is its target, the Prophet is its model, the Koran its constitution: Jihad is its path and death for the sake of Allah is the loftiest of its wishes.

    Objectives

    Incentives and Objectives:

    Article Nine:
    The Islamic Resistance Movement found itself at a time when Islam has disappeared from life. Thus rules shook, concepts were upset, values changed and evil people took control, oppression and darkness prevailed, cowards became like tigers: homelands were usurped, people were scattered and were caused to wander all over the world, the state of justice disappeared and the state of falsehood replaced it. Nothing remained in its right place. Thus, when Islam is absent from the arena, everything changes. From this state of affairs the incentives are drawn.

    As for the objectives: They are the fighting against the false, defeating it and vanquishing it so that justice could prevail, homelands be retrieved and from its mosques would the voice of the mu’azen emerge declaring the establishment of the state of Islam, so that people and things would return each to their right places and Allah is our helper.

    “…and if Allah had not prevented men, the one by the other, verily the earth had been corrupted: but Allah is beneficient towards his creatures.” (The Cow – verse 251).

    Article Ten:
    As the Islamic Resistance Movement paves its way, it will back the oppressed and support the wronged with all its might. It will spare no effort to bring about justice and defeat injustice, in word and deed, in this place and everywhere it can reach and have influence therein.

    Strategies and Methods

    Strategies of the Islamic Resistance Movement: Palestine Is Isalmic aqf:

    Article Eleven:
    The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Muslim generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up. Neither a single Arab country nor all Arab countries, neither any king or president, nor all the kings and presidents, neither any organization nor all of them, be they Palestinian or Arab, possess the right to do that. Palestine is an Islamic Waqf land consecrated for Muslim generations until Judgement Day. This being so, who could claim to have the right to represent Muslim generations till Judgement Day?

    This is the law governing the land of Palestine in the Islamic Sharia (law) and the same goes for any land the Muslims have conquered by force, because during the times of (Islamic) conquests, the Muslims consecrated these lands to Muslim generations till the Day of Judgement.

    It happened like this: When the leaders of the Islamic armies conquered Syria and Iraq, they sent to the Caliph of the Muslims, Umar bin-el-Khatab, asking for his advice concerning the conquered land – whether they should divide it among the soldiers, or leave it for its owners, or what? After consultations and discussions between the Caliph of the Muslims, Omar bin-el-Khatab and companions of the Prophet, Allah bless him and grant him salvation, it was decided that the land should be left with its owners who could benefit by its fruit. As for the real ownership of the land and the land itself, it should be consecrated for Muslim generations till Judgement Day. Those who are on the land, are there only to benefit from its fruit. This Waqf remains as long as earth and heaven remain. Any procedure in contradiction to Islamic Sharia, where Palestine is concerned, is null and void.

    “Verily, this is a certain truth. Wherefore praise the name of thy Lord, the great Allah.” (The Inevitable – verse 95).

    Homeland and Nationalism from the Point of View of the Islamic Resistance Movement in Palestine:

    Article Twelve:
    Nationalism, from the point of view of the Islamic Resistance Movement, is part of the religious creed. Nothing in nationalism is more significant or deeper than in the case when an enemy should tread Muslim land. Resisting and quelling the enemy become the individual duty of every Muslim, male or female. A woman can go out to fight the enemy without her husband’s permission, and so does the slave: without his master’s permission.

    Nothing of the sort is to be found in any other regime. This is an undisputed fact. If other nationalist movements are connected with materialistic, human or regional causes, nationalism of the Islamic Resistance Movement has all these elements as well as the more important elements that give it soul and life. It is connected to the source of spirit and the granter of life, hoisting in the sky of the homeland the heavenly banner that joins earth and heaven with a strong bond.

    If Moses comes and throws his staff, both witch and magic are annulled.

    “Now is the right direction manifestly distinguished from deceit: whoever therefore shall deny Tagut, and believe in Allah, he shall surely take hold with a strong handle, which shall not be broken; Allah is he who heareth and seeth.” (The Cow – Verse 256).

    Peaceful Solutions, Initiatives and International Conferences:

    Article Thirteen:
    Initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences, are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement. Abusing any part of Palestine is abuse directed against part of religion. Nationalism of the Islamic Resistance Movement is part of its religion. Its members have been fed on that. For the sake of hoisting the banner of Allah over their homeland they fight. “Allah will be prominent, but most people do not know.”

    Now and then the call goes out for the convening of an international conference to look for ways of solving the (Palestinian) question. Some accept, others reject the idea, for this or other reason, with one stipulation or more for consent to convening the conference and participating in it. Knowing the parties constituting the conference, their past and present attitudes towards Muslim problems, the Islamic Resistance Movement does not consider these conferences capable of realising the demands, restoring the rights or doing justice to the oppressed. These conferences are only ways of setting the infidels in the land of the Muslims as arbitraters. When did the infidels do justice to the believers?

    “But the Jews will not be pleased with thee, neither the Christians, until thou follow their religion; say, The direction of Allah is the true direction. And verily if thou follow their desires, after the knowledge which hath been given thee, thou shalt find no patron or protector against Allah.” (The Cow – verse 120).

    There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors. The Palestinian people know better than to consent to having their future, rights and fate toyed with. As in said in the honourable Hadith:

    “The people of Syria are Allah’s lash in His land. He wreaks His vengeance through them against whomsoever He wishes among His slaves It is unthinkable that those who are double-faced among them should prosper over the faithful. They will certainly die out of grief and desperation.”

    The Three Circles:

    Article Fourteen:
    The question of the liberation of Palestine is bound to three circles: the Palestinian circle, the Arab circle and the Islamic circle. Each of these circles has its role in the struggle against Zionism. Each has its duties, and it is a horrible mistake and a sign of deep ignorance to overlook any of these circles. Palestine is an Islamic land which has the first of the two kiblahs (direction to which Muslims turn in praying), the third of the holy (Islamic) sanctuaries, and the point of departure for Mohamed’s midnight journey to the seven heavens (i.e. Jerusalem).

    “Praise be unto him who transported his servant by night, from the sacred temple of Mecca to the farther temple of Jerusalem, the circuit of which we have blessed, that we might show him some of our signs; for Allah is he who heareth, and seeth.” (The Night-Journey – verse 1).

    Since this is the case, liberation of Palestine is then an individual duty for very Muslim wherever he may be. On this basis, the problem should be viewed. This should be realised by every Muslim.

    The day the problem is dealt with on this basis, when the three circles mobilize their capabilities, the present state of affairs will change and the day of liberation will come nearer.

    “Verily ye are stronger than they, by reason of the terror cast into their breasts from Allah. This, because they are not people of prudence.” (The Emigration – verse 13).

    The Jihad for the Liberation of Palestine is an Individual Duty:

    Article Fifteen:
    The day that enemies usurp part of Muslim land, Jihad becomes the individual duty of every Muslim. In face of the Jews’ usurpation of Palestine, it is compulsory that the banner of Jihad be raised. To do this requires the diffusion of Islamic consciousness among the masses, both on the regional, Arab and Islamic levels. It is necessary to instill the spirit of Jihad in the heart of the nation so that they would confront the enemies and join the ranks of the fighters.

    It is necessary that scientists, educators and teachers, information and media people, as well as the educated masses, especially the youth and sheikhs of the Islamic movements, should take part in the operation of awakening (the masses). It is important that basic changes be made in the school curriculum, to cleanse it of the traces of ideological invasion that affected it as a result of the orientalists and missionaries who infiltrated the region following the defeat of the Crusaders at the hands of Salah el-Din (Saladin). The Crusaders realised that it was impossible to defeat the Muslims without first having ideological invasion pave the way by upsetting their thoughts, disfiguring their heritage and violating their ideals. Only then could they invade with soldiers. This, in its turn, paved the way for the imperialistic invasion that made Allenby declare on entering Jerusalem: “Only now have the Crusades ended.” General Guru stood at Salah el-Din’s grave and said: “We have returned, O Salah el-Din.” Imperialism has helped towards the strengthening of ideological invasion, deepening, and still does, its roots. All this has paved the way towards the loss of Palestine.

    It is necessary to instill in the minds of the Muslim generations that the Palestinian problem is a religious problem, and should be dealt with on this basis. Palestine contains Islamic holy sites. In it there is al- Aqsa Mosque which is bound to the great Mosque in Mecca in an inseparable bond as long as heaven and earth speak of Isra` (Mohammed’s midnight journey to the seven heavens) and Mi’raj (Mohammed’s ascension to the seven heavens from Jerusalem).

    “The bond of one day for the sake of Allah is better than the world and whatever there is on it. The place of one’s whip in Paradise is far better than the world and whatever there is on it. A worshipper’s going and coming in the service of Allah is better than the world and whatever there is on it.” (As related by al-Bukhari, Muslim, al-Tarmdhi and Ibn Maja).

    “I swear by the holder of Mohammed’s soul that I would like to invade and be killed for the sake of Allah, then invade and be killed, and then invade again and be killed.” (As related by al-Bukhari and Muslim).

    The Education of the Generations:

    Article Sixteen:
    It is necessary to follow Islamic orientation in educating the Islamic generations in our region by teaching the religious duties, comprehensive study of the Koran, the study of the Prophet’s Sunna (his sayings and doings), and learning about Islamic history and heritage from their authentic sources. This should be done by specialised and learned people, using a curriculum that would healthily form the thoughts and faith of the Muslim student. Side by side with this, a comprehensive study of the enemy, his human and financial capabilities, learning about his points of weakness and strength, and getting to know the forces supporting and helping him, should also be included. Also, it is important to be acquainted with the current events, to follow what is new and to study the analysis and commentaries made of these events. Planning for the present and future, studying every trend appearing, is a must so that the fighting Muslim would live knowing his aim, objective and his way in the midst of what is going on around him.

    “O my son, verily every matter, whether good or bad, though it be the weight of a grain of mustard-seed, and be hidden in a rock, or in the heavens, or in the earth, Allah will bring the same to light; for Allah is clear-sighted and knowing. O my son, be constant at prayer, and command that which is just, and forbid that which is evil: and be patient under the afflictions which shall befall thee; for this is a duty absolutely incumbent on all men. Distort not thy face out of contempt to men, neither walk in the earth with insolence; for Allah loveth no arrogant, vain-glorious person.” (Lokman – verses 16-18).

    The Role of the Muslim Woman:

    Article Seventeen:
    The Muslim woman has a role no less important than that of the Muslim man in the battle of liberation. She is the maker of men. Her role in guiding and educating the new generations is great. The enemies have realised the importance of her role. They consider that if they are able to direct and bring her up they way they wish, far from Islam, they would have won the battle. That is why you find them giving these attempts constant attention through information campaigns, films, and the school curriculum, using for that purpose their lackeys who are infiltrated through Zionist organizations under various names and shapes, such as Freemasons, Rotary Clubs, espionage groups and others, which are all nothing more than cells of subversion and saboteurs. These organizations have ample resources that enable them to play their role in societies for the purpose of achieving the Zionist targets and to deepen the concepts that would serve the enemy. These organizations operate in the absence of Islam and its estrangement among its people. The Islamic peoples should perform their role in confronting the conspiracies of these saboteurs. The day Islam is in control of guiding the affairs of life, these organizations, hostile to humanity and Islam, will be obliterated.

    Article Eighteen:
    Woman in the home of the fighting family, whether she is a mother or a sister, plays the most important role in looking after the family, rearing the children and embuing them with moral values and thoughts derived from Islam. She has to teach them to perform the religious duties in preparation for the role of fighting awaiting them. That is why it is necessary to pay great attention to schools and the curriculum followed in educating Muslim girls, so that they would grow up to be good mothers, aware of their role in the battle of liberation.

    She has to be of sufficient knowledge and understanding where the performance of housekeeping matters are concerned, because economy and avoidance of waste of the family budget, is one of the requirements for the ability to continue moving forward in the difficult conditions surrounding us. She should put before her eyes the fact that the money available to her is just like blood which should never flow except through the veins so that both children and grown-ups could continue to live.

    “Verily, the Muslims of either sex, and the true believers of either sex, and the devout men, and the devout women, and the men of veracity, and the women of veracity, and the patient men, and the patient women, and the humble men, and the humble women, and the alms-givers of either sex who remember Allah frequently; for them hath Allah prepared forgiveness and a great reward.” (The Confederates – verse 25).

    The Role of Islamic Art in the Battle of Liberation:

    Article Nineteen:
    Art has regulations and measures by which it can be determined whether it is Islamic or pre-Islamic (Jahili) art. The issues of Islamic liberation are in need of Islamic art that would take the spirit high, without raising one side of human nature above the other, but rather raise all of them harmoniously an in equilibrium.

    Man is a unique and wonderful creature, made out of a handful of clay and a breath from Allah. Islamic art addresses man on this basis, while pre-Islamic art addresses the body giving preference to the clay component in it.

    The book, the article, the bulletin, the sermon, the thesis, the popular poem, the poetic ode, the song, the play and others, contain the characteristics of Islamic art, then these are among the requirements of ideological mobilization, renewed food for the journey and recreation for the soul. The road is long and suffering is plenty. The soul will be bored, but Islamic art renews the energies, resurrects the movement, arousing in them lofty meanings and proper conduct. “Nothing can improve the self if it is in retreat except shifting from one mood to another.”

    All this is utterly serious and no jest, for those who are fighters do not jest.

    Social Mutual Responsibility:

    Article Twenty:
    Muslim society is a mutually responsible society. The Prophet, prayers and greetings be unto him, said: “Blessed are the generous, whether they were in town or on a journey, who have collected all that they had and shared it equally among themselves.”

    The Islamic spirit is what should prevail in every Muslim society. The society that confronts a vicious enemy which acts in a way similar to Nazism, making no differentiation between man and woman, between children and old people – such a society is entitled to this Islamic spirit. Our enemy relies on the methods of collective punishment. He has deprived people of their homeland and properties, pursued them in their places of exile and gathering, breaking bones, shooting at women, children and old people, with or without a reason. The enemy has opened detention camps where thousands and thousands of people are thrown and kept under sub-human conditions. Added to this, are the demolition of houses, rendering children orphans, meting cruel sentences against thousands of young people, and causing them to spend the best years of their lives in the dungeons of prisons.

    In their Nazi treatment, the Jews made no exception for women or children. Their policy of striking fear in the heart is meant for all. They attack people where their breadwinning is concerned, extorting their money and threatening their honour. They deal with people as if they were the worst war criminals. Deportation from the homeland is a kind of murder.

    To counter these deeds, it is necessary that social mutual responsibility should prevail among the people. The enemy should be faced by the people as a single body which if one member of it should complain, the rest of the body would respond by feeling the same pains.

    Article Twenty-One:
    Mutual social responsibility means extending assistance, financial or moral, to all those who are in need and joining in the execution of some of the work. Members of the Islamic Resistance Movement should consider the interests of the masses as their own personal interests. They must spare no effort in achieving and preserving them. They must prevent any foul play with the future of the upcoming generations and anything that could cause loss to society. The masses are part of them and they are part of the masses. Their strength is theirs, and their future is theirs. Members of the Islamic Resistance Movement should share the people’s joy and grief, adopt the demands of the public and whatever means by which they could be realised. The day that such a spirit prevails, brotherliness would deepen, cooperation, sympathy and unity will be enhanced and the ranks will be solidified to confront the enemies.

    Supportive Forces Behind the Enemy:

    Article Twenty-Two:
    For a long time, the enemies have been planning, skillfully and with precision, for the achievement of what they have attained. They took into consideration the causes affecting the current of events. They strived to amass great and substantive material wealth which they devoted to the realisation of their dream. With their money, they took control of the world media, news agencies, the press, publishing houses, broadcasting stations, and others. With their money they stirred revolutions in various parts of the world with the purpose of achieving their interests and reaping the fruit therein. They were behind the French Revolution, the Communist revolution and most of the revolutions we heard and hear about, here and there. With their money they formed secret societies, such as Freemasons, Rotary Clubs, the Lions and others in different parts of the world for the purpose of sabotaging societies and achieving Zionist interests. With their money they were able to control imperialistic countries and instigate them to colonize many countries in order to enable them to exploit their resources and spread corruption there.

    You may speak as much as you want about regional and world wars. They were behind World War I, when they were able to destroy the Islamic Caliphate, making financial gains and controlling resources. They obtained the Balfour Declaration, formed the League of Nations through which they could rule the world. They were behind World War II, through which they made huge financial gains by trading in armaments, and paved the way for the establishment of their state. It was they who instigated the replacement of the League of Nations with the United Nations and the Security Council to enable them to rule the world through them. There is no war going on anywhere, without having their finger in it.

    “So often as they shall kindle a fire for war, Allah shall extinguish it; and they shall set their minds to act corruptly in the earth, but Allah loveth not the corrupt doers.” (The Table – verse 64).

    The imperialistic forces in the Capitalist West and Communist East, support the enemy with all their might, in money and in men. These forces take turns in doing that. The day Islam appears, the forces of infidelity would unite to challenge it, for the infidels are of one nation.

    “O true believers, contract not an intimate friendship with any besides yourselves: they will not fail to corrupt you. They wish for that which may cause you to perish: their hatred hath already appeared from out of their mouths; but what their breasts conceal is yet more inveterate. We have already shown you signs of their ill will towards you, if ye understand.” (The Family of Imran – verse 118).

    It is not in vain that the verse is ended with Allah’s words “if ye understand.”

    Our Attitudes Towards:

    A. Islamic Movements:

    Article Twenty-Three:
    The Islamic Resistance Movement views other Islamic movements with respect and appreciation. If it were at variance with them on one point or opinion, it is in agreement with them on other points and understandings. It considers these movements, if they reveal good intentions and dedication to Allah, that they fall into the category of those who are trying hard since they act within the Islamic circle. Each active person has his share.

    The Islamic Resistance Movement considers all these movements as a fund for itself. It prays to Allah for guidance and directions for all and it spares no effort to keep the banner of unity raised, ever striving for its realisation in accordance with the Koran and the Prophet’s directives.

    “And cleave all of you unto the covenant of Allah, and depart not from it, and remember the favour of Allah towards you: since ye were enemies, and he reconciled your hearts, and ye became companions and brethren by his favour: and ye were on the brink of a pit of fire, and he delivered you thence. Allah declareth unto you his signs, that ye may be directed.” (The Family of Imran – Verse 102).

    Article Twenty-Four:
    The Islamic Resistance Movement does not allow slandering or speaking ill of individuals or groups, for the believer does not indulge in such malpractices. It is necessary to differentiate between this behaviour and the stands taken by certain individuals and groups. Whenever those stands are erroneous, the Islamic Resistance Movement preserves the right to expound the error and to warn against it. It will strive to show the right path and to judge the case in question with objectivity. Wise conduct is indeed the target of the believer who follows it wherever he discerns it.

    “Allah loveth not the speaking ill of anyone in public, unless he who is injured call for assistance; and Allah heareth and knoweth: whether ye publish a good action, or conceal it, or forgive evil, verily Allah is gracious and powerful.” (Women – verses 147-148).

    B. Nationalist Movements in the Palestinian Arena:

    Article Twenty-Five:
    The Islamic Resistance Movement respects these movements and appreciates their circumstances and the conditions surrounding and affecting them. It encourages them as long as they do not give their allegiance to the Communist East or the Crusading West. It confirms to all those who are integrated in it, or sympathetic towards it, that the Islamic Resistance Movement is a fighting movement that has a moral and enlightened look of life and the way it should cooperate with the other (movements). It detests opportunism and desires only the good of people, individuals and groups alike. It does not seek material gains, personal fame, nor does it look for a reward from others. It works with its own resources and whatever is at its disposal “and prepare for them whatever force you can”, for the fulfilment of the duty, and the earning of Allah’s favour. It has no other desire than that.

    The Movement assures all the nationalist trends operating in the Palestinian arena for the liberation of Palestine, that it is there for their support and assistance. It will never be more than that, both in words and deeds, now and in the future. It is there to bring together and not to divide, to preserve and not to squander, to unify and not to throw asunder. It evaluates every good word, sincere effort and good offices. It closes the door in the face of side disagreements and does not lend an ear to rumours and slanders, while at the same time fully realising the right for self-defence.

    Anything contrary or contradictory to these trends, is a lie disseminated by enemies or their lackeys for the purpose of sowing confusion, disrupting the ranks and occupy them with side issues.

    “O true believers, if a wicked man come unto you with a tale, inquire strictly into the truth thereof; lest ye hurt people through ignorance, and afterwards repent of what ye have done.” (The Inner Apartments – verse 6).

    Article Twenty-Six:
    In viewing the Palestinian nationalist movements that give allegiance neither to the East nor the West, in this positive way, the Islamic Resistance Movement does not refrain from discussing new situations on the regional or international levels where the Palestinian question is concerned. It does that in such an objective manner revealing the extent of how much it is in harmony or contradiction with the national interests in the light of the Islamic point of view.

    C. The Palestinian Liberation Organization:

    Article Twenty-Seven:
    The Palestinian Liberation Organization is the closest to the heart of the Islamic Resistance Movement. It contains the father and the brother, the next of kin and the friend. The Muslim does not estrange himself from his father, brother, next of kin or friend. Our homeland is one, our situation is one, our fate is one and the enemy is a joint enemy to all of us.

    Because of the situations surrounding the formation of the Organization, of the ideological confusion prevailing in the Arab world as a result of the ideological invasion under whose influence the Arab world has fallen since the defeat of the Crusaders and which was, and still is, intensified through orientalists, missionaries and imperialists, the Organization adopted the idea of the secular state. And that it how we view it.

    Secularism completely contradicts religious ideology. Attitudes, conduct and decisions stem from ideologies.

    That is why, with all our appreciation for The Palestinian Liberation Organization – and what it can develop into – and without belittling its role in the Arab-Israeli conflict, we are unable to exchange the present or future Islamic Palestine with the secular idea. The Islamic nature of Palestine is part of our religion and whoever takes his religion lightly is a loser.

    “Who will be adverse to the religion of Abraham, but he whose mind is infatuated? (The Cow – verse 130).

    The day The Palestinian Liberation Organization adopts Islam as its way of life, we will become its soldiers, and fuel for its fire that will burn the enemies.

    Until such a day, and we pray to Allah that it will be soon, the Islamic Resistance Movement’s stand towards the PLO is that of the son towards his father, the brother towards his brother, and the relative to relative, suffers his pain and supports him in confronting the enemies, wishing him to be wise and well-guided.

    “Stand by your brother, for he who is brotherless is like the fighter who goes to battle without arms. One’s cousin is the wing one flies with – could the bird fly without wings?”

    D. Arab and Islamic Countries:

    Article Twenty-Eight:
    The Zionist invasion is a vicious invasion. It does not refrain from resorting to all methods, using all evil and contemptible ways to achieve its end. It relies greatly in its infiltration and espionage operations on the secret organizations it gave rise to, such as the Freemasons, The Rotary and Lions clubs, and other sabotage groups. All these organizations, whether secret or open, work in the interest of Zionism and according to its instructions. They aim at undermining societies, destroying values, corrupting consciences, deteriorating character and annihilating Islam. It is behind the drug trade and alcoholism in all its kinds so as to facilitate its control and expansion.

    Arab countries surrounding Israel are asked to open their borders before the fighters from among the Arab and Islamic nations so that they could consolidate their efforts with those of their Muslim brethren in Palestine.

    As for the other Arab and Islamic countries, they are asked to facilitate the movement of the fighters from and to it, and this is the least thing they could do.

    We should not forget to remind every Muslim that when the Jews conquered the Holy City in 1967, they stood on the threshold of the Aqsa Mosque and proclaimed that “Mohammed is dead, and his descendants are all women.”

    Israel, Judaism and Jews challenge Islam and the Muslim people. “May the cowards never sleep.”

    E. Nationalist and Religious Groupings, Institutions, Intellectuals, The Arab and Islamic World:

    The Islamic Resistance Movement hopes that all these groupings will side with it in all spheres, would support it, adopt its stand and solidify its activities and moves, work towards rallying support for it so that the Islamic people will be a base and a stay for it, supplying it with strategic depth an all human material and informative spheres, in time and in place. This should be done through the convening of solidarity conferences, the issuing of explanatory bulletins, favourable articles and booklets, enlightening the masses regarding the Palestinian issue, clarifying what confronts it and the conspiracies woven around it. They should mobilize the Islamic nations, ideologically, educationally and culturally, so that these peoples would be equipped to perform their role in the decisive battle of liberation, just as they did when they vanquished the Crusaders and the Tatars and saved human civilization. Indeed, that is not difficult for Allah.

    “Allah hath written, Verily I will prevail, and my apostles: for Allah is strong and mighty.” (The Dispute – verse 21).

    Article Thirty:
    Writers, intellectuals, media people, orators, educaters and teachers, and all the various sectors in the Arab and Islamic world – all of them are called upon to perform their role, and to fulfill their duty, because of the ferocity of the Zionist offensive and the Zionist influence in many countries exercised through financial and media control, as well as the consequences that all this lead to in the greater part of the world.

    Jihad is not confined to the carrying of arms and the confrontation of the enemy. The effective word, the good article, the useful book, support and solidarity – together with the presence of sincere purpose for the hoisting of Allah’s banner higher and higher – all these are elements of the Jihad for Allah’s sake.

    “Whosoever mobilises a fighter for the sake of Allah is himself a fighter. Whosoever supports the relatives of a fighter, he himself is a fighter.” (related by al-Bukhari, Muslim, Abu-Dawood and al-Tarmadhi).

    F. Followers of Other Religions: The Islamic Resistance Movement Is A Humanistic Movement:

    Article Thirty-One:
    The Islamic Resistance Movement is a humanistic movement. It takes care of human rights and is guided by Islamic tolerance when dealing with the followers of other religions. It does not antagonize anyone of them except if it is antagonized by it or stands in its way to hamper its moves and waste its efforts.

    Under the wing of Islam, it is possible for the followers of the three religions – Islam, Christianity and Judaism – to coexist in peace and quiet with each other. Peace and quiet would not be possible except under the wing of Islam. Past and present history are the best witness to that.

    It is the duty of the followers of other religions to stop disputing the sovereignty of Islam in this region, because the day these followers should take over there will be nothing but carnage, displacement and terror. Everyone of them is at variance with his fellow-religionists, not to speak about followers of other religionists. Past and present history are full of examples to prove this fact.

    “They will not fight against you in a body, except in fenced towns, or from behind walls. Their strength in war among themselves is great: thou thinkest them to be united; but their hearts are divided. This, because they are people who do not understand.” (The Emigration – verse 14).

    Islam confers upon everyone his legitimate rights. Islam prevents the incursion on other people’s rights. The Zionist Nazi activities against our people will not last for long. “For the state of injustice lasts but one day, while the state of justice lasts till Doomsday.”

    “As to those who have not borne arms against you on account of religion, nor turned you out of your dwellings, Allah forbiddeth you not to deal kindly with them, and to behave justly towards them; for Allah loveth those who act justly.” (The Tried – verse 8).

    The Attempt to Isolate the Palestinian People:

    Article Thirty-Two:
    World Zionism, together with imperialistic powers, try through a studied plan and an intelligent strategy to remove one Arab state after another from the circle of struggle against Zionism, in order to have it finally face the Palestinian people only. Egypt was, to a great extent, removed from the circle of the struggle, through the treacherous Camp David Agreement. They are trying to draw other Arab countries into similar agreements and to bring them outside the circle of struggle.

    The Islamic Resistance Movement calls on Arab and Islamic nations to take up the line of serious and persevering action to prevent the success of this horrendous plan, to warn the people of the danger eminating from leaving the circle of struggle against Zionism. Today it is Palestine, tomorrow it will be one country or another. The Zionist plan is limitless. After Palestine, the Zionists aspire to expand from the Nile to the Euphrates. When they will have digested the region they overtook, they will aspire to further expansion, and so on. Their plan is embodied in the “Protocols of the Elders of Zion”, and their present conduct is the best proof of what we are saying.

    Leaving the circle of struggle with Zionism is high treason, and cursed be he who does that. “for whoso shall turn his back unto them on that day, unless he turneth aside to fight, or retreateth to another party of the faithful, shall draw on himself the indignation of Allah, and his abode shall be hell; an ill journey shall it be thither.” (The Spoils – verse 16). There is no way out except by concentrating all powers and energies to face this Nazi, vicious Tatar invasion. The alternative is loss of one’s country, the dispersion of citizens, the spread of vice on earth and the destruction of religious values. Let every person know that he is responsible before Allah, for “the doer of the slightest good deed is rewarded in like, and the does of the slightest evil deed is also rewarded in like.”

    The Islamic Resistance Movement consider itself to be the spearhead of the circle of struggle with world Zionism and a step on the road. The Movement adds its efforts to the efforts of all those who are active in the Palestinian arena. Arab and Islamic Peoples should augment by further steps on their part; Islamic groupings all over the Arab world should also do the same, since all of these are the best-equipped for the future role in the fight with the warmongering Jews.

    “..and we have put enmity and hatred between them, until the day of resurrection. So often as they shall kindle a fire of war, Allah shall extinguish it; and they shall set their minds to act corruptly in the earth, but Allah loveth not the corrupt doers.” (The Table – verse 64).

    Article Thirty-Three:
    The Islamic Resistance Movement, being based on the common coordinated and interdependent conceptions of the laws of the universe, and flowing in the stream of destiny in confronting and fighting the enemies in defence of the Muslims and Islamic civilization and sacred sites, the first among which is the Aqsa Mosque, urges the Arab and Islamic peoples, their governments, popular and official groupings, to fear Allah where their view of the Islamic Resistance Movement and their dealings with it are concerned. They should back and support it, as Allah wants them to, extending to it more and more funds till Allah’s purpose is achieved when ranks will close up, fighters join other fighters and masses everywhere in the Islamic world will come forward in response to the call of duty while loudly proclaiming: Hail to Jihad. Their cry will reach the heavens and will go on being resounded until liberation is achieved, the invaders vanquished and Allah’s victory comes about.

    “And Allah will certainly assist him who shall be on his side: for Allah is strong and mighty.” (The Pilgrimage – verse 40).

    The Testimony of History

    Across History in Confronting the Invaders:

    Article Thirty-Four:
    Palestine is the navel of the globe and the crossroad of the continents. Since the dawn of history, it has been the target of expansionists. The Prophet, Allah bless him and grant him salvation, had himself pointed to this fact in the noble Hadith in which he called on his honourable companion, Ma’adh ben-Jabal, saying: O Ma’ath, Allah throw open before you, when I am gone, Syria, from Al-Arish to the Euphrates. Its men, women and slaves will stay firmly there till the Day of Judgement. Whoever of you should choose one of the Syrian shores, or the Holy Land, he will be in constant struggle till the Day of Judgement.”

    Expansionists have more than once put their eye on Palestine which they attacked with their armies to fulfill their designs on it. Thus it was that the Crusaders came with their armies, bringing with them their creed and carrying their Cross. They were able to defeat the Muslims for a while, but the Muslims were able to retrieve the land only when they stood under the wing of their religious banner, united their word, hallowed the name of Allah and surged out fighting under the leadership of Salah ed-Din al-Ayyubi. They fought for almost twenty years and at the end the Crusaders were defeated and Palestine was liberated.

    “Say unto those who believe not, Ye shall be overcome, and thrown together into hell; an unhappy couch it shall be.” (The Family of Imran – verse 12).

    This is the only way to liberate Palestine. There is no doubt about the testimony of history. It is one of the laws of the universe and one of the rules of existence. Nothing can overcome iron except iron. Their false futile creed can only be defeated by the righteous Islamic creed. A creed could not be fought except by a creed, and in the last analysis, victory is for the just, for justice is certainly victorious.

    “Our word hath formerly been given unto our servants the apostles; that they should certainly be assisted against the infidels, and that our armies should surely be the conquerors.” (Those Who Rank Themselves – verses 171-172).

    Article Thirty-Five:
    The Islamic Resistance Movement views seriously the defeat of the Crusaders at the hands of Salah ed-Din al-Ayyubi and the rescuing of Palestine from their hands, as well as the defeat of the Tatars at Ein Galot, breaking their power at the hands of Qataz and Al-Dhaher Bivers and saving the Arab world from the Tatar onslaught which aimed at the destruction of every meaning of human civilization. The Movement draws lessons and examples from all this. The present Zionist onslaught has also been preceded by Crusading raids from the West and other Tatar raids from the East. Just as the Muslims faced those raids and planned fighting and defeating them, they should be able to confront the Zionist invasion and defeat it. This is indeed no problem for the Almighty Allah, provided that the intentions are pure, the determination is true and that Muslims have benefited from past experiences, rid themselves of the effects of ideological invasion and followed the customs of their ancestors.

    The Islamic Resistance Movement is Composed of Soldiers:

    Article Thirty-Six:
    While paving its way, the Islamic Resistance Movement, emphasizes time and again to all the sons of our people, to the Arab and Islamic nations, that it does not seek personal fame, material gain, or social prominence. It does not aim to compete against any one from among our people, or take his place. Nothing of the sort at all. It will not act against any of the sons of Muslims or those who are peaceful towards it from among non-Muslims, be they here or anywhere else. It will only serve as a support for all groupings and organizations operating against the Zionist enemy and its lackeys.

    The Islamic Resistance Movement adopts Islam as its way of life. Islam is its creed and religion. Whoever takes Islam as his way of life, be it an organization, a grouping, a country or any other body, the Islamic Resistance Movement considers itself as their soldiers and nothing more.

    We ask Allah to show us the right course, to make us an example to others and to judge between us and our people with truth. “O Lord, do thou judge between us and our nation with truth; for thou art the best judge.” (Al Araf – Verse 89).

    The last of our prayers will be praise to Allah, the Master of the Universe.

    Mideastweb Middle East

    Map of Palestine Map of Israel Map of Iran Map of Syria Map of Afghanistan Jerusalem Detail Map Map of Egypt Dictionary Middle East Recipes Jerusalem/Quds to Jericho History of Israel & Palestine – Part I Israel & Palestinian History current since the Oslo accords Middle

    • What you omit to mention, Tony, is that without the support of the Israeli government in 1987, Hamas would have stayed a small and irrelevant organisation.
      I suggest you read an interview with Moshe Arens, at the time the defence minister and absolutely no leftist, who said that Hamas was boosted by Israel as a counterbalance to the PLO.
      Sowing, reaping.

      • Tony Jacobs

        So Israel made a mistake in 1987? And that’s a reason to make the same mistake again? Sane, rational?

      • Tony Jacobs

        You know Joe, the more I think about your posts, the more I dislike your ideology, which seems to me to be based on arrogance and a grossly inflated ego. All you are doing is dividing and sowing the seeds of hate, distracting people of good faith from making real and meaningful progress. Your arguments are speculation, with little regard for reality.

        How do you know what would have happened to Hamas if Israel had acted differently? Do you have divine powers? If so, please tell me why Hezbollah, the Muslim brotherhood, Al Quiada, the Salafists, et al, would have been prevented from rising to fill the place of Hamas? On second thought, take your pointless speculation and stick it where the sun don’t shine.

        I’m sorry to make such a personal attack on your blog Richard, but the guy is just vile.

      • Tony Jacobs

        Oh, and I didn’t “omit to mention” anything. Your comment is a pointless distraction.

      • Tony, I think it would have been correct to put the source of the strength of Hamas in context. Context is everything.
        I’m not sure I’m particularly keen on your ideology, either. That would, of course, is an understatement. However, it does add to the rich tapestry of life.
        I don’t believe I am sowing division, since division has always been there. Would you rather have a Syria-like situation with 99% of the population voting for the President’s party? The other 1% never to be seen again.
        Unity is for dictatorships. Diversity is strength.
        Hatred? You should see the crap I’ve had to put up with. Hate mail to my family. Abusive comments about my parents. These were all par for the course from the “people of good faith”. But what doesn’t kill you makes you stronger, and, if you pardon my French, I’m fucked if I’m going to let the bastards grind me down. Or as the family coat of arms says: Illegitimi non carborundum – KMT.
        I hope you never have to face these slings and arrows of outrageous fortune. And I really do mean that.

      • Tony Jacobs

        “Unity is for dictatorships. Diversity is strength.”
        You’ve really embraced the 1984 Newspeak, haven’t you?

        Utter garbage Joe. Hamas are ideologically committed to wiping out every Jew, as a religious duty. They may negotiate if they think they can gain an advantage, but it is a temporary ceasefire. You can read their intent as stated in their charter and you can hear it from their senior officials ad nauseum.
        So Joe, how will Israel be able to negotiate with Hamas, when Hamas will not negotiate with Israel?

      • Joe Millis said:

        “Diversity is strength”

        Tell that the family of Lee Rigby.
        To the families of the people murdered in the Islamofasdcist bombings of London 7/7/05.
        To the families of the people who perished in the bombing of passenger plane Pan Am 103.
        To the families of the people who died on 9/11/01 whose loved ones were murdered by people which some “diverse” British Muslims celebrate as “the Magnificent 19″.

        Putting “diversity” ahead of the rule of law and safety is suicidal.

        Hence the decline of the UK and Eurabia.

      • Joe Millis,

        I forgot to mention the Muslim rape gangs that target non-Muslim teens.

        http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/10057035/Child-sex-gang-guilty-of-grooming-and-gang-raping-vulnerable-girls.html

        Joe, What you are pushing is Islamofascism re-branded as “Diveristy”.

      • Edward, where did I say the word “Progressive”? I’m not even sure what “progressive” means. Jews have also killed for family “honour”. As have Hindus, Sikhs and Christians. It’s disgraceful. What would you like me to say?
        People being encouraged to die in the name of religion? Have you heard of the Crusades? The Gainsboro Baptists? Kiddush Hashem? Tov Lamut ba’ad Artzeinu? Are not all religions death cults in that they promise a better life after this? Thank God for secularism, I say.
        If I shill for anything, it’s for an Israel living with its eyes on the future as a Jewish and Democratic state, strong in its identity. That’s why the state was set up.

      • Joe Millis, You know that Honor Killings of girls by their devout Islamist families is epidemic. These killings happen all over the world.

        Killing in the name of your religion, you referred to the Crusades, that happened from the 11th-16th centuries. Islamofascists killing in the name of their religion happens TODAY.

        Gay teens are executed, hung from construction cranes in the “Islamic Republic of Iran”.

        Coptic Christians are beaten and killed in Muslim Brotherhood Egypt.

        Google Images “arab nazi salute”.

        Opponents of Hamas, accused of spying, are executed and their bodies dragged behing motorcycles as “an example” to others.

        Can Israel reason with such fascism?

        Joe Millis, Have you no shame?

      • Edward, there’s a photo, from 1982, of the then Israeli Defence Minister Ariel Sharon being greeted in Marj Ayoun by the Maronite Christian Phalangist South Lebanon Army also with a Nazi salute. Politics make very strange bedfellows.
        As for the sledgehammer to crack a nut analogy, the thing is the Nazis and the other Axis powers were not a mere nut. As I have tried to explain elsewhere, they were military powers, with vast industrial and human resources. Nothing like the Islamofascists – who are pretty much under control.

      • Show that picture, if you can. Then explain why this Nazi salute could be a friend’s greeting to a Jew (you knew Ariel Sharon was Jewish, didn’t you?).

      • You wrote “Nazism is indeed an ideology. But in order for it to work, you need numbers (60-odd million), a strong economy, a powerful military and a charismatic leader with a cadre of very close and devoted followers.”

        Are you deranged? Did Hitler start off with the resources you mention?Doesn’t the Arab, let alone the Muslim world, have much more than that now?

        And why are you so eager to get everyone bogged down in semantics, rather than address the real issues and deal with the facts. Your position is ludicrous. Now that my daughter has finished her GCSEs and has some time, she may condescend to debate with you, but I doubt it; she doesn’t suffer fools gladly.

    • Tony, Hamas has already negotiated with Israel. And Israel has already negotiated with them. Are you saying that Israel was wrong to negotiate with Hamas? So its Charter says what it says. The PLO Charter said pretty much the same. It’s been rendered defunct.
      Morsi’s Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt also says pretty much the same. So what? Words are words, business is business. Israel and Egypt co-operate fully over the Salafists. That’s Realpolitik and pragmatism.
      To reiterate, Israel is not some nebbish state/shtetl. It’s the most advanced country in the region, economically, technically and militarily, by a very, very large margin.
      How do you think that Israel is able to bomb targets in Syria without its aircraft even being seen? How do you think its citizens are able to enjoy an average income on a par with most southern European countries. Israel is not some weakling. The age of miracles and wonders are behind us, and Israel is strong enough, established enough, to start being a bit more empathetic and compassionate.

      • Tony, I am also still waiting, and I am sure it is a mere omission on your part, to hear how you see Israel adhering to the Zionist values that I and the country’s founders and most leaders believe in.

      • Edward, yes there were those despicable acts of terror. But I’m sure you’ve noticed how neither the US nor Britain fell apart after them.
        I also refer you to the Aliens Act (1905) and bear in mind who the “aliens” were.

      • Joe,
        Clearly there is a need to monitor the groups from which the terrorists belong to.

        The people living in the UK who openly celebrate terrorist attacks which have killed thousands in the US and UK need to be scrutinized. Listened, watched, read.

        How do propose fighting the Islamofascist villains who target innocent people all over the world?

      • Edward, I’m sorry that this is all over the place, but I’ll doubt you’ll hear from me any word of condemnation for the Prism/NSA/GCHQ listening issue. Intelligence gathering is the key. That and education. Prevention rather then cure.
        Using a sledgehammer to crack a nut doesn’t work. Never has, it’s just a recruiting sergeant for the extremists.

      • Nazism is indeed an ideology. But in order for it to work, you need numbers (60-odd million), a strong economy, a powerful military and a charismatic leader with a cadre of very close and devoted followers.
        As for your threat… Meh. Illegitimi non carborundum.
        Or if you want to ask a Hebrew speaker – Im Yanuhoo, Ken Yigbar.

      • Germans were 30M and couldn’t stand to Hitler and his Nazi party who certainly counted less than 30% of the voters.who elected him. So your arguments are as all the rest, crap.
        Besides, Muslims have 1.2 billions and most support the terrorist you chamberlainise.
        If you confuse a prediction (that already worked) with a threat, no doubt you should see a doctor for paranoïa.

      • “Using a sledgehammer to crack a nut doesn’t work. Never has, it’s just a recruiting sergeant for the extremists.”

        Really?

        Using your logic, the Allies should not have fought the Axis because fighting would only create more extremist Socialists.

        Who do you think WW2 was won by the Allies?

        Appeasement or punishing retaliation followed by Unconditional Surrender by National Socialist Germany and Imperialist Japan?

      • Joe, you ARE sowing the seeds of dissent and hatred, just look at how pro Israel supporters reacting to you. These are normal people who are trying to engage in civilized debate. No one is an extremist, no one is saying that we should do to our enemies what they openly state they’d like to do to us.

        You know as well as I do that Hamas and all the Islamofacists are willing to negotiate with Israel, if they think it is to their advantage. That’s why Israel releases hundreds of terrorists for a single soldier. We also know the ultimate goal of these groups is (at the very least), the destruction of Israel and in the case of Hamas the genocide of the Jews.

        I know that Israel is strong Joe and I want that strength to grow. I want Israel to seize every advantage to further its mission to promote freedom and democracy; inflicting as much damage on it’s genocidal, hate mongering, oppressive neighbors as it can, in the process. In the words of a 1970s country and western song. “Sometimes you have to fight when you’re a man.”

        You seem eager to associate yourself with the founders of the state of Israel, by inference labeling anyone who disagrees with you as a traitor to the cause of Zionism. That’s a pretty cheap trick, that may work with the intellectually challenged, or the self hating liberal left, but is not acceptable in decent society. Really, those types of tactics belong to the nazis, fascists and religious fundamentalists, whose cause you seem to espouse. I know your pedigree Joe; does Stockholm Syndrome mean anything to you?

        So don’t hide behind the sixth form debating tricks any more. Please, I simply want to know how you think Israel is responsible for Hamas’s refusal to accept Israel’s right to life, let alone exist as a country? While you’re at it, how can Israel make Hamas engage in real, meaningful negotiations, for a peace settlement, that accepts Israel’s right to exist, when Hamas considers anything more than a short term ceasefire a betrayal of the Muslim cause, punishable by the death of the collaborator?

        I look forward to your reply, but I may not be able to reciprocate immediately, as I have a life to live and a job to do.

        Kind regards and Shabbat shalom.

      • Tony you’re perfectly right but Millis is unable to understand the simple things you explained. He is heavily comprehension-challenged and never lets facts get into his way. Shabbat Shalom!

      • Shabbat shalom to you too. If you were in London I’d meet you for a drink.

      • Sorry Joe, I cannot find your answer to my earlier question, which I’ve re-posted below for your convenience.

        “Unity is for dictatorships. Diversity is strength.”
        You’ve really embraced the 1984 Newspeak, haven’t you Joe?

        Utter garbage Joe. Hamas are ideologically committed to wiping out every Jew, as a religious duty. They may negotiate if they think they can gain an advantage, but it is a temporary ceasefire. You can read their intent as stated in their charter and you can hear it from their senior officials ad nauseum.
        So Joe, how will Israel be able to negotiate with Hamas, when Hamas will not negotiate with Israel?

      • Tony, I’ve answered it often and clearly. I am not responsible for your reaction.
        What I’d like to know us how people like yourself, on the edge of the right wing Zionist spectrum and living outside Israel, reconcile wanting Israel to remain a Jewish and democratic state with ruling over a very sizeable minority, or even a majority, of mon-Jews? I’m assuming, I hope correctly, that you indeed want Israel to remain both Jewish and democratic.
        I, for instance, do want that to happen, as you are apparently unwilling to concede. Never mind.
        I wonder if you, like me, believe that Israel’s Declaration of Independence, is one of the most beautifully worded and just statements of intent issued by any post-colonial state. Do you, like me, endorse every word from the first letter, ב, to the last full stop?
        I’ve sent a link to this thread far and wide, to right wing Jews as well as left wingers, just to show that with some people debate is possible.
        I hope Richard appreciates the boost to his hits.

      • It is unlikely that people are interested in a blog where you try to attract them, Millis. Even less likely anytone who is right-wing for you, that is from Meretz to Kahane.

      • Joe Millis, you are a bare faced liar. Every time I ask you how Israel can have a peace deal with Hamas and the likes, you find ways to dodge giving an answer and then immediately distract the debate with a question of your own. The tactic does not work on me, so please stop wasting time and actually answer the question. Don’t say you have answered it many times and then fire another question at me. Please just explain how Israel can actually make real peace with an enemy that has sworn to kill every Jew on the planet and can be and is seen to be making every effort to make good that threat, every second of every day, for nearly 30 years?

      • And yet again you evade giving an answer to support your absurd assertion that it is Israel’s fault that they cannot make peace with the genocidal Hamas & co, by asking questions to distract me. You wrote:

        “Tony, again, I ask you:

        What I’d like to know us how people like yourself, on the edge of the right wing Zionist spectrum and living outside Israel, reconcile wanting Israel to remain a Jewish and democratic state with ruling over a very sizeable minority, or even a majority, of non-Jews? I’m assuming, I hope correctly, that you indeed want Israel to remain both Jewish and democratic.
        I, for instance, do want that to happen, as you are apparently unwilling to concede. Never mind.
        I wonder if you, like me, believe that Israel’s Declaration of Independence, is one of the most beautifully worded and just statements of intent issued by any post-colonial state. Do you, like me, endorse every word from the first letter, ב, to the last full stop?

        Unfortunately, you seem to have a problem with that.
        I have, through the years, come to the conclusion that those on the far right of the Zionist spectrum – and especially those outside Israel – are trying to make up for 2,000 years of persecution by persecuting others. The bullied is trying now to be the bully. You seem to think that making comparisons with Nazis fundamentalists, for instance:

        Really, those types of tactics belong to the nazis, fascists and religious fundamentalists, whose cause you seem to espouse.”

        Well Joe, my ability to read the Israeli constitution and what I think of it are less relevant here than your ability to read the Hamas charter. You made an assertion and I challenged it, now it is your turn to support your position or admit you were mistaken. As for me being an abusive bully, take your pick between ‘pot, kettle, black’ and ‘projection.’

        You continue:

        “Then there’s the denigration tactics (“my daughter has just finished her GCSEs and could do better than you”) Or for instance the “as a Jew Zionist who knows only Ashkenazi Jews and Tel Aviv”. Really? Is this the school playground now? “My daddy’s bigger than your daddy”?
        Your type of “pro-Israel activist” also seems more than willing to blame others for their own failures. it’s always someone else’s fault, whether it’s causing disunity and distractions (I’m paraphrasing here) or whether it’s giving succour to the enemy.
        Sorry, mate, but it’s time to take responsibility. To man up, as it were. Do you really think being shouty and one-sided has helped Israel’s cause in Britain?
        And it’s not really a question of being pro-Israel, after all the JPR’s poll showed that the vast majority of British Jews support the two-state solution, like me (and it appears most Israelis and its Prime Minister – but who knows) and a plurality backed talks with Hamas. We are all pro-Israel in our own ways. You may not like my ways, as I certainly don’t like yours.
        So am I going to see an answer to my question, or are you going to be defamatory?”

        Joe, you and your lefty intellectual friends may still support the TSS and there may have been a time that the majority of Israelis (including me), supported the idea. As recent elections showed, that’s not the case anymore. The real problem of course, is that the Arabs NEVER supported the idea of a single Jewish state, so the Two State Solution was only ever a slur on their honour, to be expunged only by a great slaughter of Jews.

        The answer to your question is that I disagree with the leftist analysis of the demographics. Since the latest figures show that there will continue to be a Jewish majority for decades to come, I see no rush to aide the Arab/Islamofascists by making concessions to them in return for increasing hostility and hatred from them. The Arabs have been boycotting us since the 1920s, let them have their boycotts and petrodollars and may they choke on it.
        Israeli Arabs live longer, freer,happier and healthier lives than anywhere else in the middle east. In fact, which Muslim country is a better democracy than Israel?
        So now you have the courtesy of an answer from me, time to prove that you are a gentleman.

      • Come on Tony, Millis is no gentleman and never will be one. The problem is that he knows he is wrong, that the Hamas, Hezbollah and a good part of Fatah are filled with genocidal hate for Jews and so these Nazis will never be satisfied until they have perfomed their sacred hate ‘duty’.
        But Millis is like Chamberlain: his ideology has to prevail in spite of all facts. Pacifism must bring peace. As we saw in 1939 with Nazis, it works perfectly. Millis’s ideology is much part of what created misery for the people of the Middle East.

      • Tony Jacobs

        Again Jose, I agree with you completely.

      • Who would wantwnt such an infantile person as Millis represent the PR of UK Jewry or any Jewry at all? His views are representative of less than 5%, and they are so destructive for Israel that every founding father of Israel would be disgusted.

      • Tony Jacobs

        I agree with you Jose.

      • Tony, again, I ask you:

        What I’d like to know us how people like yourself, on the edge of the right wing Zionist spectrum and living outside Israel, reconcile wanting Israel to remain a Jewish and democratic state with ruling over a very sizeable minority, or even a majority, of non-Jews? I’m assuming, I hope correctly, that you indeed want Israel to remain both Jewish and democratic.
        I, for instance, do want that to happen, as you are apparently unwilling to concede. Never mind.
        I wonder if you, like me, believe that Israel’s Declaration of Independence, is one of the most beautifully worded and just statements of intent issued by any post-colonial state. Do you, like me, endorse every word from the first letter, ב, to the last full stop?

        Unfortunately, you seem to have a problem with that.
        I have, through the years, come to the conclusion that those on the far right of the Zionist spectrum – and especially those outside Israel – are trying to make up for 2,000 years of persecution by persecuting others. The bullied is trying now to be the bully. You seem to think that making comparisons with Nazis fundamentalists, for instance:

        Really, those types of tactics belong to the nazis, fascists and religious fundamentalists, whose cause you seem to espouse.

        Then there’s the denigration tactics (“my daughter has just finished her GCSEs and could do better than you”) Or for instance the “as a Jew Zionist who knows only Ashkenazi Jews and Tel Aviv”. Really? Is this the school playground now? “My daddy’s bigger than your daddy”?
        Your type of “pro-Israel activist” also seems more than willing to blame others for their own failures. it’s always someone else’s fault, whether it’s causing disunity and distractions (I’m paraphrasing here) or whether it’s giving succour to the enemy.
        Sorry, mate, but it’s time to take responsibility. To man up, as it were. Do you really think being shouty and one-sided has helped Israel’s cause in Britain?
        And it’s not really a question of being pro-Israel, after all the JPR’s poll showed that the vast majority of British Jews support the two-state solution, like me (and it appears most Israelis and its Prime Minister – but who knows) and a plurality backed talks with Hamas. We are all pro-Israel in our own ways. You may not like my ways, as I certainly don’t like yours.
        So am I going to see an answer to my question, or are you going to be defamatory?

  14. Tony and Zacharia to that I would add mention of Hezbollah’s malign influence: http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/3766/religious-war-middle-east

  15. can I post my new book on here Richard?

  16. Tony Jacobs

    Once again I’m sorry Richard. I didn’t intend to post the whole Hamas Charter above, I thought I was posting the web address.

    • Apart from Millis, we all know the Hamas Charter. Millis is in total denial of Hamas genocidal ideology and that is not unusal for Jews as that was the case way up to the 1940s for a number of them. The question is: must we delude ourselves again?

      • I really don’t think you can compare a party that led a highly industrialised country of 60-odd million people that was a military superpower with a group leading a population of about 1.8 million with no industrial infrastructure (in fact, with very little infrastructure at all) which borders the regional superpower.
        I’m not sure it’s me who is deluding myself. In fact, I’m certain it’s not me. Why do you, Tony and perhaps Richard lack hope. That’s such a defeatist, unJewish and non-Zionist attitude. Destructive, too

      • Nazism is an ideology and has nothing to do with the peesent ability of Hamas to reach its avowed goal. You are the defeated pseudo-Zionist here, the new Chamberlain mistaking all others for idiots and you for a genius. Just a loudmouth that will continue to cost you dearly.

      • Tony Jacobs

        You asked; “Why do you, Tony and perhaps Richard lack hope. That’s such a defeatist, unJewish and non-Zionist attitude. Destructive, too”

        1) We have hope, that’s why we keep fighting for Israel, instead of advocating, as you seem to, that the only way that Israel can survive is to become weaker, giving yet more concessions to an enemy sworn to destroy us and getting nothing in return. Why do you insist, against all historical fact, that the only way to beat a bully is to join his gang?
        2) I’m sure that you’ve stated that you are secular, maybe even atheist. How can you call a practicing, traditional Jew like me un-Jewish?
        3) I’m not sure which Zionist leaders you have in mind when you state that you and they would find my viewpoint non-Zionist. I would have thought that you’d be hard pushed to find any leader who advocates/advocated your point of view. I know that Jabotinsky,Begin and Shamir didn’t. I don’t think that any more than a small minority in Israel support your extreme leftist views today.

        Shabbat shalom.

      • What exactly is “progressive” about shilling for people who stone women to death over “family honor”, encourage children to aspire to die for their “prophet” while attacking Jews/Christians/Hindus/Buddhists/Bahais and the wrong kind of Muslim, place weapons stores in civilian areas, have fighters dress in civilian clothing while firing rockets, broadcasting kiddie shows that have children calling Jews sons of pigs and apes/dogs/whatever?

      • Jose,

        Google Images “arab nazi salute”

        Islamofsacists have their role models.

  17. Jose, or whoever, Nazism is indeed an ideology. But in order for it to work, you need numbers (60-odd million), a strong economy, a powerful military and a charismatic leader with a cadre of very close and devoted followers.
    As for your threat… Meh. Illegitimi non carborundum.
    Or if you want to ask a Hebrew speaker – Im Yanuhoo, Ken Yigbar.

    • Islamofascism is an ideology, drawing from 1,300 million followers.

      Democracy got thrown under the bus in Egypt, Islamofascist Regime of Iran and Syria.

      • I’m quite confident that Joe Millis major was not maths. He has some troubles with figures. The part of the 6 millions who successfully deluded themselves until it was too late would scream hearing his fantasies about the new Nazis. Someone who failed to integrate in Israel telling Israelis how to make peace with Nazis. It would be hilarious if it was not pathetic.

    • what’s hilarious and pathetic is the fact that when they bisected argument, some people jump immediately to reductio ad hitlerium. Another hilarious and pathetic trait is the attack that I didn’t “assimilate” in Israel.
      First, Israel isn’t some sci-fi fantasy where people are assimilated by aliens
      Second, the person making the attack probably never even lived in Israel and certainly can’t speak the language. Probably won’t be let in either, even the Law of Return has limits
      Now you can attack me all you like. I honestly couldn’t give a toss. If last year’s little episode taught me anything it was just to laugh at the illegitimi who thought they could bring me down.

      • I’ll let Mr Millet appreciate the fun of your personal attacks and the sharpness of your fantasies about me. Of course, I live in Israel where I integrated without any trouble and don’t expect to return to my birth country anytime soon. You see, I am a real Zionist and I don’t mind people not thinking like me. So I don’t need to blame Bibi for my own failures.
        Then calling Nazi people who want to genocide Jews is not at all reductio ad hitlerum. It is just the name given to these people. Better not try rhetoric with me nor maths because obviously you suck at both. But then you’re a loudmouth and can’t help it.

  18. Interesting to see how all these aliases that used to pollute this blog have now disappear. And we have only one remaining loudmoutn producing fantasies by the thousands.
    Listen carefully, Millis: any group that wants to eradicate Jews because they are Jews, can and will be called “Nazi”. Because that is the idea behind Nazism. All the rest is superficial. Read Mein Kampf and just count the number of times the word “Jew” is declined. You’ll get an idea of the obsession it was. Same thing with Führer Haniyeh and Guide Nasrallah. The cure for Nazism is well known and has been successfully applied to Germany. It is not Chamberlain’s negotiation. It is Churchill’s one.

    • You’d know all about aliases and personal attacks, seeing as you employ both often and instead of any coherent argument.
      As for your claim that you live in Israel… Yeah whatevs…

      • You are the one who used repeatedly, and still does, several aliases while I’ve never done it. Personal attacks is your only defense for your crumbling arguments. You are in total denial of the Nazi nature of Hamas and want to give Middle East lessons to anyone here? Forget it! You never even learned the basics and you went back to your country after failing.

    • I suggest you listen, whoever you are. You can continue your absurd comparison between a very small, ill equipped organisation which has the support of perhaps 2 million people on an area that has no infrastructure, and little or no resources and a massively industrialised country with huge and extremely well armed army, navy and Air Force.
      You can also continue to view Israel as some kind of hopeless weakling, contrary to the evidence before your eyes, and in direct contradiction to everything Jewish and Zionist.
      Because, frankly, my dear, I don’t give a damn about you or your personal attacks, your hatred and self-delusion.
      If I cared, I’d suggest you get help. But I don’t, so I won’t.

      • You are in total denial of the Nazi nature of Hamas, using an irrelevant argument about the (false) number of supporters. It is irrelevant because the nature of an ideology does not depend on the number of supporters. Then, you forget that most Sunni Arabs will support Nazi Hamas and that’s a hell lot more than 2 millions, isn’t it?
        So go on proving your ignorance about the Middle East, continue staying the loudmouth ignoramus you ever were. Nothing could be more satisfatory to me as it will naturally backfire on you as it has in the past.

      • Tony Jacobs

        Joe, you are becoming more childishly petulant and less reasonable with each post.

    • Did you know, Jose (pronounced Hozeh) that Hozeh is Hebrew for someone who hallucinates? Very apt.

      • What I know is that an idiot will blame others for making personal attacks then wil make one immediately afterwards, based on an approximate supposed pronunciation.
        Loudmouths pay the price of every word that goes out of their mouth. Thank God, if I may say as an atheist. LOL!

      • It’s called midah keneged midah, but that’s in Hebrew so you wouldn’t understand it.

      • You are replying to yourself, so you shoudl answer. As usual your babble is not intelligible, but not because of the Hebrew.

      • What on earth are you on about Joe? I’m not aware that I’ve expressed hatred of anyone, least of all you. If you infer that from anything I’ve read, then I apologise for not making myself clear.
        I cannot say the same about your ideas or tactics, or the cause that you espouse.

    • You hit the nail on the head Jose, but people like Millis just won’t except reason or fact. Jew hatred, whether from gentiles or other Jews, is a sickness that all right-minded people want to cure. It is very similar to self harming and Anorexia.

  19. Daniel Marks

    I join this excellent post late as my laptop is being repaired by my Palestinian computer technician who doesn’t seem to have a clue what he’s doing. That, incidentally, is not racism because I do not attribute his lack of understanding to his ethnic roots.

    I blame not the Israeli occupation of Palestine for his inability to get the microphone working or change the fan, neither do I suspect that his bad work is the result of his hatred of Zionism or a wish to drive me into the sea. Like too many of his Jewish cousins, he’s just a crappy technician.

    I consider it a mistake to call everyone with whom we disagree or who we do not like a Nazi – doing so trivializes the Holocaust. There have been many evil ones in every generation who have sought to destroy the Jewish People. Some have sought to forcibly convert us to other religions, some have tried to annihilate us in order to preserve their own racial purity and others seek to deny our right to statehood, military self-defense, etc in order that others might be able to defeat us in battle. Another commentator aptly explained this approach:

    “I think I made it clear that Israel is powerful enough and economically strong enough to afford to agree to talks on the basis of the 67 lines…”

    There are also non-Jews who genuinely love us and who are in part responsible for terrifying high intermarriage rates of world Jewry. Paradoxically, though meaning well such gentiles might be our greatest threat today, more so than the anti-Israel propagandist or even the tattooed swastika bearing skinhead.

    However, none of the non-Jews are Nazis and nor are we the same vulnerable defenseless wretches who they gassed. There are always dangers and challenges, but those of us who wish to, with the help of G-d, have taken our own destiny in our hands and despite the best efforts of many who would want it otherwise, day by day we built and we are built.

    • Again Marks sides on the wrong side of the road, making broad generalizations and strawmen. Not all those who ‘disagree’ with Israel are Nazis (that would be a stupid assertion, but then, it’s Marks who did it). Hamas has a clear will to eradicate Jews and do it everywhere. This is Nazism. Hamas is the creation of Muslim Brotherhood, whose member Amin Al Husseini was a ‘friend’ of Hitler. You do think Hitler was a Nazi, don’t you Marks? Friends and supporters of Nazis who share their antisemitism and support extermination of Jews (whether they are able to carry it on or not), I will call Nazi and only an idiot will pretend that I trivialise the Holocaust by doing so.
      Ultra-religious and useless idiots of the pseudo-left are often strange bedfellows.

      • This is Nazism.

        no it ain’t – it has picked up crude half baked murderous blood-lust en vogue at the time and incorporated it into their own (according to Bernard Lewis) muddle headed deadly dreams.

      • Looks like the Club Of Those Unable To Open A Dictionary…
        Open one, search Nazi, and read every definition of it. Then come back and speak like an moderately intelligent guy.

      • well I happen to have grown up with Elders lots of whom had been or still were all shades none of them ever told me it had been fulfilling god’s will.

        If they had anything akin to a god the closest one might get is science*) and that includes those easy facilitators of belittling terrible times by using them as an easy metapher.

        PS: I always scratch my head when I hear that word tsunami still used as a synonym for whatever one wants to label as overwhelming … after that Christmas desaster after 100.000′s killed ?????

        *) science may have the advantage over religion that it over time corrects its errors while claiming implicitly that they don’t count because the applicators of science acted in good faith.

      • I Would recommend a psychiatrist, but I guess that would be wasted money. Try to focus on the subject. OPEN A DICTIONARY and discover the possible meaning for the word “Nazi”. For the moment, you don’t behave as a grown up and even less as a scientist, who are trained to check before they assert, especially when their attention is attracted by someone else towards it. Plenty of online dictionaries will give you the same information, so you have no excuse.

      • OK you win Jose – dictionary beats live-experience of decades any time

        aka what does a native speaker and contemporary of Nazis know as compared to a foreigner’s use of the dictionary – nothing … if Jose says so

      • In this case (meaning of words), experience means opening a dictionary. If you can’t do it, you, Ruth and Marks are the idiots who lives in a dream where words have only your personal meaning.

    • Daniel

      to support your point – former paper-pusher me thinks can-do-people who obviously keep their cool facing such a task are not only entitled to a state they have earned it many times over. (I am not in disrespect of your military it is just that I have a lot of experience with the intricacies of paper-pushing and none of how to manage soldiers.)

      More than a million immigrants? Can do!
      http://israelsdocuments.blogspot.de/2013/06/more-than-million-immigrants-can-do.html
      By and large, the plan was successfully executed. … The fact that the folks in the prime minister’s office were unfazed by the dimensions of the challenge may have had something to do with it.

  20. Jose: I’ve got news for you. Prepare and brace yourself, because this won’t be easy. But here goes anyway………..The Nazis were a German political party (Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei (National Socialist German Workers’ Party) who ceased to exist in 1945. Members of this party were Germans. Got that bro? Hamas, Imadinnerjacket, Nasrallah, whoever are not Germans and are not members of a political movement that no longer exists.

    Daniel: ”terrifying high intermarriage rates of world Jewry.”. This statement speaks volumes and is very reminiscent of a certain ideology referred to on this thread. If I remember correctly, it was Golda Meier who said that for a Jew to marry a non-Jew would be to join the 6 million. And a rabbi somewhere along the line stated that inter-marriage would finish off the job that Hitler started. I regard these sentiments as abhorrent and callous. I’m sorryy to disappoint you Daniel but miscegenation is the future. You have a choice……primordial tribalism or open-hearted universalism.

    • Fantastic, Ruth! I knew someone who cannot open a dictionary would come along and expose his ignorance here.Now, I will continue to call “Nazi” someone or some group who want to exterminate Jews, according to every good dictionary you can find.

    • Reminds me of those who are accused of antisemitism anddeny it by asserting that they are themselves (Arab) Semites. They ascribe a personal meaning to the term, ignoring the dictionary meaning(s) or choosing one that obviously doesn’t fit in a typical strawman.

    • Daniel Marks

      Hi Ruth,

      I don’t know to which rabbi you refer, but if he exists, I’d suggest that he’s cheapening the Holocaust somewhat too. I think we can agree to the a simple semantic point that not everyone who is evil is also a Nazi. Pharaoh wished to throw all Jewish firstborns to the Nile and Haman planned to kill us all, but they were not Nazis – to suggest otherwise would be anachronistic. One might say that what the Hamas wish to do is as bad as what the Nazis did or even say that their leadership is no better than that of the Nazi Party, but they are not Nazis.

      Regarding your apparent endorsement of intermarriage, you’ll forgive me if I don’t get into that one. With the greatest of respect, I’m not sure that you really believe in what you’re advocating. I’ve met the nice Jewish boy who you married and you’ll find it hard to convince me that it was all by coincidence. Zionism arose in part as a reaction to the naive assimilationism of the early 19th Century. I respect you far to much to begin to remind you of Herzl’s conclusions from the Dreyfus trial or of the long assimilated Jews who were marched to gas chambers even as they protested that they were citizens of the world.
      I shall not even ask you how you reconcile miscegenation with the identity of Israel as a Jewish state.

      Instead, I’ll recommend that you pay careful attention to the actions of a certain Zimri and the reaction of a priest named Pinchas in this weeks Torah reading. I’ll also ask you to take note of the reaction of G-d to the aforementioned event. I’d be interested to hear your view of the matter.

      • It would have been surprising that Marks could open a dictionary as well. Laziness? Sloppiness?

  21. So yes, Ruth: a Nazi can be something else than a member of NSDAP, and a Semite can be an antisemite, especially sinice some Jews are also antisemite. Richard Falk’s and Chomsky’s names comme to mind.

    • Obviously, you can’t keep it in your pants. No Hebrew and always attacking. In Israel, Alek (that’s Hebrew slang, by the way).

    • הוזה, methinks you signed in as Jose by mistake there. It’s easy to get confused by having so many identities and aliases.
      אני מרחם עליך, אחי גיבור הפיזמות

      • Obviously, your problems are getting worse. You won’t find work by exposing yourself like this.

    • אוכל חינם, מקרה סעד, דביל ומזויף לך תזדיין

      • Tsss-tsss! Can’t you behave? Have you nothing better to do? Such as find a job as Nazi Hamas PR?

      • אין לך מושג כחול מה שכתבתי, נכון אהבל?

      • Do you know that Isi is reading that blog too? What does he think of you?

      • Really, the two of you need to start behaving like adults. Is this how you think the Zionist founders behaved and how our elected leaders should behave?

      • I wonder if the Nazi Hamas would employ such a self destructive person. It could destroy years of good PR work!

      • הוא שאמרתי. החמור מדבר עם עצמו כי אף אחד לא שם עליו זיין. כמה שאני אוהב להקניט את הדביל שלא מבין מילה שאני כותב. אני יודע שזה צער בעלי חיים, התעללות בגופת המת ושימת מכשול בפני עיוור אבל מגיע לו.

      • Well, if you believe I don’t understand, why do you go on so stupidly? Ooops! You can’t help! LOOOOOL!

      • You are just vile. All your pseudo politics has dropped away and we see the real you, a nasty little boy with a dirty mouth.
        And this isn’t the first time is it? Usually have your run-ins with women though, don’t you.

    • Hozeh, matey, let what I wrote stay. And it’ll stay as long as Richard deems it decent enough to stay. That’s up to him. I’ve nothing to hide. You obviously have. That’s why you employ various aliases.
      If you did understand Hebrew, you’d show some indication or apt response to what I wrote. You didn’t, so you don’t. You are a pathetic little fraud.
      Fresher evenings? What’s that when it’s at home? Another one of your hallucinations?

      • Obviously, you never heard about smartphones!
        Why should I respond to your ridiculous insults, Millis? Don’t you see it is the Jewish community’s interest to see what you have become?
        Why did you become a failed Zionist, btw?

      • You really have jumped the shark, Hozeh.
        It is quite amusing. But ultimately tedious, much like you.
        Why don’t you send a link to the mad Australian?

      • Still answering to yourself as a madman? This wouldn’t look good to a potential employer!

  22. Fortunately, Millis, now that you are not working under cover of an alias, this can be easily used against you as long as it will remain on this blog where you cannot even remove it. ;)
    Meanwhile, I’ll enjoy the fresher evenings. Do you remember them? That was at the time you were still delusioned about being a Zionist.

    • Oh, and I’m writing this on a smartphone. It’s the one with the Hebrew keyboard. ככה אני יכול לקרוא לך בן תשפוכת אלף חמורים and you would not understand.
      By the way, what’s a Fresher Evening?

      • Just came back to see your drivel. Try to employ a 5yo to write your speeches. That would perhaps improve your style and thought.

    • They let you out? At night? Frightening what Care in the Community has become

  23. Daniel Marks

    Richard,

    I think that I have proven on more than one occasion that I am as greater believer in the freedom of expression as most men. On this excellent blog I have argued for the right of the most unsavory of characters to be given their soapbox; including among others that inscrutable Arabian gentleman from Hebron who called us Kikes and Nazis and that tenacious Trot from Brighton who is forever attempting to show that the founding fathers of Zionism were, in fact, Nazi collaborators. I demanded that the barmy Bridlington based Belgian-born bingo boy not be banned and the list goes on and on.

    However, with every idiotic comment that the dynamic duo Jose-Joe post they drag this once excellent posting further into their gutter, if they wish to languish there, so be it. Why must we be forced to join them? Every interesting assertion, every carefully crafted comment is immediately drowned by the mere volume of their infantile dribble. Just as it appears that one of them has hit rock bottom the other emerges to reconfirm the words of a man much wiser than I:

    “Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe.”

    • “Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe.”
      You are the best example after Millis.

    • Tony Jacobs

      Daniel, I usually enjoy your posts, but I’m a bit upset by that last one. I understand why you’d get frustrated by Millis, most people are, but what have you got against Jose? The worst I can see is that he’s let a juvenile like Millis provoke him.

      • As I said elsewhere, it’s always someone else’s fault. Whatever happened to personal responsibility? The other poster has an identity problem, I made the mistake of playing to it after trying to be nice. Mea culpa, mea maxima culpa.
        I’ll try not to let him get to me next time. Best, in fact, to ignore him.

      • You two keep chasing your own shadows. And inventing paper tigers to fear.

      • Of course, who has to fear a regime who brutally murdered 100K of its citizens and counting? Who has to fear Nazi organisations Hamas and Hezbollah, hell-bent on the destruction of Israel and extermination of Jews worldwide? Who else but the evil Zionists that were elected by Israelis to do their jobs: protect Israeli citizens from terrorism, delegitimization, hate and boycott that Millis supports. They must be all less intelligent than Millis and that must be something, dear!

  24. Marks hate atheist even more than anything else, that’s why. He started his lachon hara when he learned that.
    And Joe is the one who gets excited like a juvenile with multilingual insults. Reason being that I was instrumental in having him removed from a job he wasn’t fit for. Whatever small my participation was, it helped and I was happy for UK Jews.

    • Please tell us more.

      • Nothing much to say. I helped Isi collect some of the links he needed to pillory Millis in his now famous article. Very little contributionin fact, but as I knew where to mine for details, I came up with an anthology to chose from, especially Millis’ support for BDS. I believe that was the main problem with keeping him on such a job.

      • Jose,
        Yasher Koach!

      • Thanks! I consider I made a mitzvah for UK Jewry.

      • Comparing Israel to Iran, considering Jerusalem as an occupied city, support for BDS, all that was a bit too much to pretend speaking for UK Jews, it seems, even if it partly matched Davis’ opinions.
        I guess he did not expect to hear such an outcry!

  25. Daniel Marks

    Hi Tony,

    We’re holidaying in Prague and Shabbat has only just gone out. That’s why I’m late in replying.

    I’ve been criticized more than once for challenging the views and occasionally the sanity of other commentators who are supposedly on my side. I’m sorry but to my mind the fact that a person is or isn’t a Zionist, a settler or a religious Jew neither makes all his statements right or wrong – sensible or idiotic. The commentator that you refer to writes:

    “Marks hate atheist even more than anything else, that’s why. He started his lachon hara when he learned that.”

    Not only does his comment demonstrate his ignorance of two languages, it proves he is an idiot. If he or anyone else can find a single word I have said against atheism in thousands of comments on this or other blogs, I will publicly apologize. He won’t because he can’t because they don’t exist. He knows not Hebrew nor English and writes about matters (in this case me) about which he has not a clue, so what should I say? Shall I write that the guys a genius because he’s rolling around in the proverbial gutter with the other idiot, but he’s on “our side”?

    Tony, I enjoy reading what you write to and I am no less impressed by Ruth’s contributions. You are both serious intelligent people who have disagreed with me on this page and I still respect you both no less. If you enjoy reading the comments of the aforementioned commentator, that’s you prerogative. I guess we’ll just have to agree to disagree.

    Shavua tov

    • Another brilliant demonstration of lashon hara. Full of hate and in vain.Thanks again for proving my point withoute having to go as low as you.

      • Daniel Marks

        I truly do not hate you. I have no idea who you are and have no real interest in finding out. I do take offense at your lie:

        “Marks hate atheist even more than anything else,”

        Please substantiate this claim, apologize or if you prefer, continue languishing in your gutter with your mate.

        I suspect that you might choose the latter.

      • “Daniel Marks | October 21, 2012 at 8:37 pm |
        I might add that most of the mass murderers over the past century were atheists; Mao, Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, etc.”
        http://richardmillett.wordpress.com/2012/10/19/tim-llewellyn-zionists-are-scattered-throughout-british-business/

        Of course, that assertion is untrue as hell, but it is one that is peddled by religious idiots who don’t know that half of these were raised in religion and the others created their own.

        “…It is a love that returns Jews from the former Soviet Union despite 70 years of Bolshevik atheist brainwashing.”
        Blaming in the same phrase atheism and Bolshevism… Bolshevism was a failed godless religion, btw.

        Fortunately, we can hope Israel will go somewhat in the right direction by sending to Tsahal and putting to work a number of its ultra-lazies. Add to that a civil marriage in Israel because Israelis are fed up with having to go to Cyprus.

      • Tony, just FYI, I’m agnostic, rather than atheist. Carry on.

    • Daniel Marks

      3 spellings mistakes. I apologize and blame the weather.

      • That proves you xan’t spwak English, I guess, according to the standards you generously apply to me. Ooops! I forgot that you are a double standards expert as well.

    • Let’s be clear: for the pedantic Marks (and I suppose his stooges), it is perfectly acceptable to compare an innocent, law-abiding atheist to Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol-Pot AND to call Oskar Schindler, who saved 1000 Jews, a “Nazi”.
      On the other hand the word “Nazi” shouldn’t be applied to people who want to genocide Jews in Israel and in the rest of the world, such as members of Hamas and Hezbollah. Otherwise, one might trivialize the Holocaust, you see!
      Your murdered relatives must be turning in their graves like whirling dervishes, religious or not.

      NONSENSE!

      • Tony, just FYI, I’m agnostic, rather than atheist. Carry on.

      • Good, I wouldn’t like to have Millis on my side. It would mean something is wrong! LOL!

      • Nah, Hozeh, you are just failed, bitter and sitting in front of a computer in North West London, making up aliases and sock puppets as you go along. As you were… Carry on

      • The poor Millis lost whatever little brain he had left.

      • Failed Zionist, failed Israeli, bitter about it and blaming the Israeli government for his own personal failures. There you find Millis.

      • Silly Hozeh. Unlike you I take full respobsility for my actions. I don’t blame others. Isn’t it time you manned up to yours? Or maybe one of your aliases could? Or a sock puppet, perhaps. Carry on

      • So you are responsible for you failure as a Zionist? And you don’t project that failure on the Israeli government? Why are you so bitter, aggressive and how do you know so little about Israel?

      • Hozeh, What do they know about Israel those who only about Israel know?
        You’d know all about being bitter and aggressive and blaming others. In fact, that’s about all you know. You certainly know nothing about Israel except what you imagine in your warped imagination

      • Poor Millis still spitting from his gutter. You could easily be pitied. But not by me. In fact, loudmouths like you have exactly what they deserve.

      • Poor Hozeh. You really do need to lighten up. You’ll do yourself some damage and that would be such a shame. I mean, who else would provide us with so much entertainment? And for free

      • Sure, Millis: I’ll continue to entertain you the way I did just before you were fired. Your loudmouth is a very good help, I must say. So stay as you are and continue getting what you deserve.

      • Now do brush your teeth and go to bed, you silly little boy.

      • I’m happy you show your impressive PR skills here for all to see. Some might have regretted your firing. Now, they are relieved! LOL!

    • Tony Jacobs

      Daniel, no need to apologise, I understand that you have a life off line. I think that some people can ‘push ones buttons’ and really get under ones skin, while a third party has no idea what’s going on and why the reaction is so extreme.
      This is what’s happening with you and Jose I think. I agree substantially with both of you and can’t really see why you’re arguing, let alone getting so personal about things.

      Meanwhile, Joe Millis has stirred things up and then slithered back under his rock, along with his BDS buddies. now that gets me mad, although I still can’t say I hate him.

      • Don’t be disappointed that Millis crawled back to his rock, Tony! He’s probably preparing his next boot of paranoia. At least Marks and him have something to agree about, which of course makes none of them more intelligent.
        I’ll continue to use a valid dictionary definition to call Nazi such organizations as Hamas and Hezbollah and they will both stick to a definition that fits Oskar Schindler as well as any other Nazi party member. History has already answered as to which is the saner worldview.

      • Tony Jacobs

        I agree with you and Daniel, I just don’t understand why you are arguing with each other. I don’t think I can understand from what’s been posted on this blog, your animosity seems to go back too far. I just wish that the two of you could agree to disagree and use all that energy to engage with the bad guys.

      • Marks is an old pedant, with absolutely no thinkingg besides his hysteric ‘sic’ and his pseudo-religious babble.

      • I don’t make much difference between Marks and Millis. Both are extreme examples of why there cannot be any peace in the Middle East. One ready to do the same mistakes that allowed Hamas to grow (the Gaza withdrawal being the most evident one) and the other believing religion will unite Jews and Arabs while it has fostered hatred for more than 1000 years. Religion cannot even unite Arabs (see Syria).
        If I had to choose, I would say Marks makes the biggest mistake, but Millis’ one is already totally unacceptable anyway.
        Both represent a fringe minority with no popular support in Israel, fortunately. Both behave in a way that make sure no one will ever support them. Millis has paid for his loudmouth and I’m sure the same happened to pedant Marks.

      • Tony

        Jose is on a pro-atheism crusade (yes crusade and no prisoners taken) and will jump on anybody who isn’t willing to join his creed that all it takes is to fight against religion in any kind shape or form, even agnostics are on his agenda.

        in short IMHO opinion he is into very aggressive proselytizing

        give it a try and say anything that even hints that religion may be beneficial here and there and he’ll be jumping all over you. Whenever that happens he reminds me of the apostate-yellers I met on the net whenever somebody said something nice about a Bahai let alone an alevite.

        Having read the encounter between him and Daniel from the beginning, it has always been Jose attacking Daniel for believing, never the other way around. (thereby boring me to tears more than once – Jose that is not Daniel)

      • Tony Jacobs

        Thanks for explaining.

      • Tony
        JStreet is also on your side, the if there is that they want Israel to conform to standards than no state has ever managed to come even close to including all western democracies but Israel is sneered at and booed for every mini item they can find.

        What does it have to do with Jose? He is on your side provided Israel become’s an atheist’s heaven on earth.

        Of course there are those American Christians who are on Israel’s side – as best I know they have their own reasons for it but in the meantime they support the sovereignty of the state of Israel unequivocally (as I do all by myself not least due to some very selfish reasons) and by their voting power probably make sure that the US is reigned in a bit in its desire to be chummy with Turkey.

        Daniel has protected his country in uniform for 25 years, that alone makes any assault by Jose on him focusing on his religious beliefs extremely bad and objectionable behaviour.

      • Tony Jacobs

        Silke, I can find lots to argue about in what you’ve written above, but choose not to. I don’t agree with a few things that Daniel writes, but wouldn’t like to fall out with him about it. I even believe that Joe Millis truly believes that he is acting in Israels best interests. So when Jose says things that I, as a believing and practicing Jew (who, along with Joe Millis, has served in the IDF), don’t like, I just try extra hard to show some tolerance and say nothing.

      • Okay, saying nothing then is it

      • Jeffrey Goldberg has served in the IDF and claims that he can stand by Israel as if there were no occupation and criticize Israel for its politics as if it had no enemies at the same time.

        Believe me for an outsider who tries to decide on whether to come down from the fence that is the best way to make her give up on it, after all what difference does her vote make.

        By now the only people I seem to be able to still agree to disagree with are either living in Israel or belong to a probably rather small German group of former (West-German) communists known as Anti-Deutsch

      • Being in uniform doesn’t mean combat unit, by the way. 25 years? He missed nearly all the ‘fun’ didn’t he?

      • Tony Jacobs

        I’m pretty sure that Joe Millis has said that he’s an athiest, so I’ll take a pro-Israel athiest like Jose over an anti-Israel one like Joe.

      • and I object to any proselytizer

        currently lots of atheists get pretty high marks for doing just that from me

      • Remember that you fantasized this “proselytizing”, Silke?

      • As you can guess I know a number of people here in Israel, of all kind, religious and non-religious. Few are as aggressive, none is as pedantic as Marks.

      • And in the course of my atheist crusade, I spent Seder and first day of Pesach within a Modern Orthodox family, a very religious one. They invite me whenever they make Seder at their home and I gladly accept their invitation every time. But they do not hate atheist, don’t compare them to mass murderers, etc. On the other hand, they easily call Hamas and Hezbollah “Nazis” and are not the least shocked when I do.
        Real nice people, Zionists, right-wing of course but no extremism. They prefer to vote for secular rather than ultra-orthodoxes. My kind of religious people.

      • … some of my best friends are …

      • That’s always the case with religious nuts: no amount of evidence will ever prove them just plain wrong.

      • On the other hand, I have countless tales of aggressivity from religious nuts without me doing or saying anything special. Not agreeing with them enthusiastically is already taken as an offense. The pedant Marks is but one example of it.

      • Now the pedant Marks’ stooge is seeing atheists in crusades! Unicorns are next! Not really an objective observer.
        I know a number of very Orthodox believers. fortunately none as pedantic and none as aggressive as marks. In fact, only Neturei Karta and True Torah Jews are more aggressive.

      • Daniel Marks

        Hi Tony,

        This is a disagreement that I’ve had with many, including the author of this excellent blog. Basically, I am told that we must close ranks and not quibble among us, as long as there are nasty Jew-haters around.

        The problem is that there will always be nasty Jew-haters around and I refuse to abandon freedom of expression until the last opponent of Israel has joined the JIA. If somebody could show me any harm that I cause Israel or the Jewish People by expressing my views, I would be silent. However, I truly believe that by labeling every Tom, Dick and Harry with whom we disagree, or even wishes to harm us, we do a great disservice both to the memory of the Holocaust, and no less, to the interests of the Jewish People today.

        Let me just give you two examples. If every Islamo-Fascist in London is to be labeled a Nazi, what are we going to say if G-d forbid some real Nazis turn up? We’ll tell the Jewish People to run for their lives because the Nazis are coming, but they’ll tell us that they’ve lived with all types of “Nazis” for many years and they weren’t so terrible. Calling everyone a Nazi might be easy in the beginning, but it’s basically “crying wolf” and that can be dangerous.

        Secondly, if we call Nazi to everything that moves, how are we going to argue that are opponents are morally forbidden to use this term when referring to Israel? – and they do. A few years ago I was visited by an anti-Zionist American Christian group whose leader told me that he had visited Yad Vashem that morning and the pictures had reminded him of Israeli roadblocks! I told him his words were disgraceful and he soon apologized. If I had been calling the Palestinian leadership and its supporters abroad Nazi, where would I have found the moral indignation to complain when somebody else “returns the favor”. Calling out opponents Nazis is wrong tactically, strategically and most of all because it denies the name of G-d – which is truth.

        I have no idea who the character you refer to is and he may even agree with many of my views in other matters, but I do believe this point to be important enough to speak my truth, even if some other idiot can “slither back behind his rock”.

        Let him slither!

      • Of course, with such a ridiculous idea of who is NOT a Nazi, the probability of identifying a real Nazi is zero. This ludicrous definition of a Nazi as expressed by “Ruth/Marks” shows that there will NEVER be anyone to be labeled “Nazi” anymore. So why marks would fear not to recognize a ‘real’ Nazi?
        Then, I said Hamas and Hezbollah are Nazis. Marks ludicrously transforms that in ” if we call Nazi to everything that moves..” That, is an ugly strawman, Hamas and Hezbollah not being “everything that moves”.
        Then the pseudo-religious stupidity: “Calling out opponents Nazis is wrong tactically, strategically and most of all because it denies the name of [God] – which is truth.” The day Marks will speak the truth, he will have learned to read and learned to admit his errors. I’ll wait until Hell freezes over!

      • Tony Jacobs

        Tomaytos, tomartos, potaytos, potartos……..

      • Na·zi Noun /ˈnätsē/

        Nazis plural
        1.A member of the National Socialist German Workers’ Party
        2.A member of an organization with similar ideology
        3.offensive. A person who holds and acts brutally in accordance with extreme racist or authoritarian views

        As you can see 2 and 3 correspond to Hamas and Hezbollah. I evaluated that definition 2 perfectly applied to these two organisations, with their genocidal hate of Jews. It is not an offensive definition that would trivialize the Holocaust but a definition that refers to ideology of Nazism, the only one that can be used to identify a Nazi, the first one being obsolete since 1945.
        Denying that definition, and warning that any other than 1 “trivializes the Holocaust”, makes someone confuse Nazism with some brand of fascism.
        No doubt the predecessors of Marks made the same misevaluation and paid a high price. For decades afterwards, Israel was mostly secular, religious Zionism being a minority.

      • Tony Jacobs

        Both of you are right. You are both arguing over subtle distinctions of shade and nuance.

      • No, I am explaining the blind Ruth/Marks, that there are different colours of Nazis. And why do you think he/she refused to open a dictionary and give the definition that kills his/her argument?
        The pedant Marks cannot admit he is erring, because he speaks the divine truth. Like Millis, he believes no one but himself knows the truth and that an atheist must be wrong, whatever happens. Compare them to the worst mass murderers even when these are religious God-deluded ones.

      • So are we going to argue now? I can see truth in both your arguments.

      • I can see the stubborn pedant in Marks, but truth? Just someone really busy to repeat the errors of his ancestors.

      • JIA ?????
        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JIA

        … and thanks for specifying the reasons against cheapening “Nazi”

        as to individuals who were or weren’t and whether party membership is significant in that context research will probably never end – what’s at the core of it comes out quite clearly here
        http://www.uctv.tv/shows/The-Anatomy-of-Malice-Rorschach-Results-from-Nuremberg-War-Criminals-24993

      • The pedant stooge Silke enters…
        No one else but you cheapen the word “Nazi” when you refuse in advance to grant it to those who so evidently deserve it. So no one can be a Nazi today, and should another organisation want to genocide Jews, they would be just a brand of “normal fascists” to you.
        Error made in the 1930s. People didn’t get any smarter since.

      • “Here in Israel”, Hozeh?
        O, what a tangled web we weave when we practice to deceive (Walter Scott)

      • Obviously, Millis cannot recognise the truth when he sees it. What else? Yes, Millis, I am not a failed, bitter, former Zionist like you are.

  26. Daniel: Check out Bakehouse Praha in the Jewish quarter for the best goat’s cheese quiche and coffee on the planet.

    • Maybe he can check also a dictionary while he’s at it…

      • since you are such a wizard with dictionaries Jose would you be so kind as to tell me exactly what Merkel referred to when she mentioned Multikulti which as best I remember made it through all the major newsoutlets after they had consulted their dictionaries.

        Certainly you can do better and won’t be to shy to prove it …

      • Why do you ask me? Ask her.

      • lame attempt at chickening out …

        I know what she meant that’s why I’m testing how good your claimed dictionary expertship is … and believe me it is a good and perfect example

        either you pass the test or you have proved to me that you are a braggard

  27. Pedant stooge of pedant-in-chief.

  28. Melchett Mike has acquired dictionary status? that’s news to me

  29. After being promised the quotes that would prove my hatred of atheism, our readers can only imagine this commentators profound disappointment to be offered the middle of an old discussion where somebody had maintained that most wars and tragedy had been caused by religion and I had replied that the worst mass murderers of the 20 century had not committed their crimes in the name of any religion and that most were atheists. The latter statement was contested by those who maintained that Hitler was god-fearing as to some extent was Comrade Stalin. I remain skeptical and still believe that most mass murders of the 20 century were committed in the name of ideologies rather than religion. Either way, it is a lie to say that I hate atheists, because I don’t. I do not agree with them, but as I have attempted to explain at nauseam; to disagree with or even negate a view does not imply hatred of it or its adherents.

    Neither is my contention that every Jew-hater can be labeled a Nazi only semantic. It is important to recall that many Jews stayed behind in Europe and perished in the Holocaust precisely because of their inability to distinguish between “normal anti-Semitism” and Nazism. There was a feeling among many that “We’ve survived pogroms in the past, so we’ll survive this one too.” It took many Jewish leaders too long to understand that Nazism was not just a bigger version of the Kishinev Pogrom. It and its perpetrators were both different to anything before or since. The denial of the unique nature of the Holocaust by equating it with the Arab “Naqba” or by equating Nazi monsters with commentators on this blog whose views we reject are two sides of the Holocaust denial coin.

    Since much has been made of the idiotic usage of the term Nazi; such as “soup Nazi” “jazz Nazi” etc, we can only advise against such trends by quoting an excellent online dictionary:
    Na′zism (-sɪz əm) Na′zi•ism, n.
    usage.: Definition 4 of Nazi has existed at least since 1980 and parallels other words such as police (def. 6), as in thought police, and cop2 (def. 2), as inlanguage cops. Though this use is usually intended as jocular, it is sometimes used intentionally to denigrate an opposing point of view. However, many people find these uses offensive, feeling that they trivialize the terrible crimes of the Nazis of Germany.

    http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Nazi

    Incidentally, I understand that the idiot now maintians that Ruth and I are one and the same. This begs the question whether I am her masquerading as a fella or she is I. I think we both have good reasons to hope that the former is the case.

    • The pedantic Marks shows again his inability to admit the simple truth. He is the only disappointed by the fact that he compares atheist to worst mass murderers (while they were not atheists) and refuse to call Hamas and Hezbollah by a name that fits them perfectly according to dictionary definition. Then he tries to make a number of diversions.
      Result: he makes exactly the same errors he denounces by minimizing Hamas and Hezbollah as “normal antisemites”.
      Marks is not only pedantic but the same fools that believed God would save them from Nazis or considered them “normal antisemites”.
      And turns a black eye to atheism, which in his deranged ideas, is responsible of the worse massacres in recent history. Since the crusades, I guess. LOL!

      • Daniel Marks

        ” I had replied that the worst mass murderers of the 2
        “And turns a black eye (sic) to atheism, which in his deranged ideas (sic), is responsible of (sic) the worse massacres in recent history. Since the crusades (sic), I guess. LOL!”

        LEAVE A REPLY

      • Now you understand what a pedant is. And best example is Marks.

      • ped·ant Noun /ˈpednt/

        Synonyms:
        noun: prig, stickler, precisian

        pedants plural
        A person who is excessively concerned with minor details and rules or with displaying academic learning

    • Oh and the pedantic Marks also forgot that it is Melchett Mike who believed that Ruth and him are the same, not me. While it is possible that he is a total ignoramus of IP addresses, he should have easily noted the origin of your respective messages on his own blog. So his opinion is valuable.
      While “Ruth” really accused me of being someone else, he didn’t blame that on ridiculous paranoia. Double standards!
      And of course, he avoided calling Schindler a Nazi, fitting his definition, while genocidal antisemitic Hamas does not.
      Pedant and really tolerant to his own errors.

  30. Daniel Marks

    Yes, unequivocal proof that Ruth is I! We must assume that it is to this three year old comments to which the idiot refers:

    Ruth | April 22, 2010 at 11:30 pm |
    Daniel Marks you are very very funny. Where can I sign up for more?
    “…o the Gert may want to make sure he has a clean pair handy for the occasion. Marks and Spencer are good but hardly free. White seems quite customary….” hahahahahahaha. Hilarious.

    melchettmike | April 22, 2010 at 11:37 pm |
    Daniel, surely you could have come up with a better pseudonym than “Ruth”?!

    http://melchettmike.wordpress.com/2010/03/26/the-israel-only-bashers-a-case-study-bridlington-gert/

    How does one explain a humor to a moron? How does one expound on a witticism to he who has not his wits about him? Can a sense of humor be taught to he who has no sense? I have profound misgivings, but I shall try.

    My good friend Mike was implying that nobody could find me amusing, and (therefore) if someone had expressed such sentiments, she must be a pseudonym. It’s the same joke as telling a parent that his child is so fair that some mistake must have been made at the hospital or telling a lad that if his lass finds him attractive, she should have her eyes rechecked.

    These statements are not meant to be taken literally, but are what we call “humor”. The idiot may want to look that one up in his dictionary too.

    • It is clear now that pedantic Marks doesn’t have to get lashon hara lessons; he is quite an expert already. Now he is in the same gutter as his dear Millis, both extremists who do not tolerate any dissent to their nutcase opinions.

      Not indulging in his diversions, let’s repeat: to him Oskar Schindler is a Nazi, Hamas and Hezbollah are not. To me, Oskar Schindler is a Righteous despite his Nazi Party membership and Hamas and Hezbollah are Nazi organisations.
      Which description better fits reality? Marks wouldn’t know: reality is not part of his life, as it isn’t for Millis as well.

  31. Daniel Marks

    Truly clutching at straws the idiot takes off time from accusing Ruth of being my alter-ego and slagging off his best mate Joe, to reprimand this commentator for talking lashon hara. I’m guessing that no further mention shall be made of my being Ruth and no further evidence will be provided to attest to my “hatred of atheists”. That what it’s like when you’re an idiot; you jump gaily out of the frying pan and into the fire singing a merry verse.

    The next idiotic statement produced is regarding Oskar Schindler. I am accused of seeing him as a Nazi, but the Hamas not. Therefore, I shall unequivocally state that I have no recollection whatsoever of ever having mentioned Schindler on this or any blog. I once again challenge the idiot to show otherwise. I cannot speak for Ruth, but I cannot recall her ever having mentioned him either. This whole reference to Schindler is a total red herring produced by one of the least honest and least intelligent posters who has ever visited this excellent blog.

    So, let’s sum up. In the past few days I’ve been accused of bad-mouthing a righteous gentle, being a lady called Ruth and hating atheists. All that has been done by an idiot who is supposedly one of us. I am in no way offended regarding any of these imbecilic utterances, why should I be? The opinions of an idiot are of no consequence. It’s just scary to think that this guy is on “our side”. Surely, we can do better.

    On a more serious note, today is the 17th of Tammuz and we’re off to Terezin. What could be a more appropriate place to mark the beginning of this tragic period of the year?

    May He turn all our sad days to festivals and our fasts to feasts speedily in our days.

    • Oskar Schindler, member of NSDAP, therefore according to the definition Marks/Ruth support, a real Nazi. Hamas and Hebollah have the benefit of the doubt at best, just “islamo-fascists’. LOL!
      Marks should learn what is a red herring, but this is exactly the subject that he stupidly objected to: calling anything else than a member of NSDAP a “Nazi”. Hence, Oskar Schindler the Nazi.

    • And again, Marks makes a contribution to his lashon hara thesaurus. Religious people are the worse in that exercise, and they never realise it.

  32. Christopher Proudlove

    OOOOPS! I meant rite of passage. Yes, there are cases of Israeli stone-throwing and price tag attacks, but from Prime Minister Netanyahu downwards they are condemned. The Palestinian Arab response is praise. The brainwashing extends to to urging the children to become martyrs. If the Israeli stone-throwing exceeded that of the Palestinian Arabs don’t you think it would be all over the Western media, Trevor? The fact that it isn’t shows where the main blame lies. I urg both sides not to go down the tit-for-tat road

  33. I grew up with a German expression for doing something to excess being common “bis zur Vergasung” = roughly until turning into gas – I must have been about 25 when somebody told me about the possible mental association with gas chambers in that (I should have realised that by myself but hadn’t). Did I argue that the expression didn’t originate in the 3rd Reich but in the 20s most likely on dance floors in Berlin and thus had no connection whatsoever to the holocaust?

  34. “Over time, Israel will become an Apartheid state.”
    Who said this today? The New Israel Fund? Mick Davis? Yachad?

    No, it’s Tsipi Hotovelli, a deputy Likud minister, on the right wing of the party and I think also a settler.
    http://news.nana10.co.il/Article/?ArticleID=986885&ssv=1&sid=126

    • predictions are notoriously difficult especially when dealing with the future

      and if you like that one I’m sure you’ll find some here

      http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=predictions+future+quote&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8

      • Very droll, but thanks. But what Ms Hotovelli said is probably the last thing I’d expect from someone on the right wing of the Likud.

      • and you were so very witty to link to a page full of articles that Google translate would have been of no help

        throwing around the word apartheid as a quote without context of what she was talking about is meaningless to me – next you’ll tell me that she is eager to kneel in front of Jimmy Carter and kiss his ring.

      • Sorry that you could not understand the piece. I hope either the Jerusalem Post, Haaretz or perhaps Ynet in English will report it tomorrow. Then there’s the excellent Times of Israel.

      • it’s not that I couldn’t understand it – Google translate would have taken care of that – it was that your link didn’t lead to that piece directly but to a page full of them

      • Netanya conference last week and 3 quotes that may or may not support a very different position from what the headline suggests

        great find – congratulations!

      • As she hasn’t denied it, or claimed it was taken out of context, it’s best perhaps to leave it at face value

      • and face value is very contradictory …

      • oh and I forgot – thanks galore for showing me from which “yellow” sources you patch your arguments together.

        but since I am in a charitable mind: “apartheid” is part of the headline with no context given – the two other quotes may have a very different context

        what exactly is that Netanya conference and what is it about – Google doesn’t help except with an undated link in French to a Netanya conference about the reception of Israeli literature.

        how big is the office staff of a deputy minister of transport in Israel – does she usually object to such items – I’d advise her against it unless it was part of a lecture she gave at that Netanya conference whatever it was last week.

        Oh and I am looking forward to how you’ll paraphrase the whole thing.

        oh and just to apply common sense – if she had really said it the way you want to interpret it, it certainly would have created a sensation that wouldn’t have remained unused for what 5 days, 6 days

        How easy it is to dupe propagandists.

      • That would be the first time you take Likud statements at face value, Millis! It must be something damaging to Israel, then!

      • Ho-hum, and hey-ho

  35. Daniel Marks

    I welcome back Joe, sometimes Joe M (at times Joe Millis) to this excellent blog. Jose has been lonely without you.

    When reading his interesting comment I was reminded of a synagogue in Rumania where I prayed daily several years ago and each day the same old man would shout out in his prayers, “We are righteous and we have not sinned!” It crossed my mind to explain that the verse he was reading translated something like, “We do not have the gall to say that we are righteous and have not sinned, but we and our fathers have sinned.”

    However, because of Joe’s (Joe M’s) much flaunted linguistic skills, especially in Hebrew I did expect more from him. I am no friend of MK Hotobeli (though my daughter-in-law knows her) but I shall do my best all the same to explain to Joe (Millis?) what I believe she was saying – sadly, this requires some background explanation which might call for intelligence and patience. Therefore, I shall advise Jose to quickly scroll down to the end of this comment.

    While the Israeli Right is quite heterogeneous, one can talk about four basic schools of thought regarding what should be done in the medium term:

    First, there is Netanyahu and other members of the soft-right. Basically, they are in favor of negotiations and offering a Palestinian state in the sure knowledge that this is the last thing that Abu Mazen truly wants and therefore it will come to nothing without Israel appearing overly-intransigent.

    Next comes Benet and friends. They believe in the immediate annexation of the C areas of Judea and Samaria, with while representing the majority of these land areas would only mean the annexation of about 50,000 Arabs (some claim this number to be as much as 100,000). This would have no discernible demographic effect on the population make-up of Israel. They would give these Palestinians all rights of Israeli citizens while leaving A and B for future talks.

    Then we have Hotobeli (I have no idea how to spell her name) who supports annexing all parts of Judea and Samaria. She argues that since Benet’s plan will lead to an international outcry etc, it’s better to get it all over with in one go. It is with this point of view that Joe (sometimes just Joe) appears to identify.

    I belong to a fourth school of thought that says, “Leave well alone.” I maintain that every artificial attempt to solve the Arab-Israeli conflict by means of either war or peace has only made the situation worse and thus, the status quo is about the best of a bad lot. When I hear our “friends” in Europe telling me that the status quo is against Israeli interests and spells calamity for Israel, I am more sure that I am right. After all, many of these people care not a fig about Israeli interests and would be delighted to see just that calamity.

    Hotobeli’s statement was made in the context of this debate. What she said was:

    “יש כמה חברים בימין שחושבים שהמשך הסטטוס קוו אפשרי, אני אישית חושבת שזה לא. לאורך זמן מדינת ישראל תהיה מדינת אפרטהייד, אני לא רוצה בזה.

    “There are some members of the Right who believe that the continuation of the status quo is possible. I personally do not think so. In the course of time Israel will be an Apartheid state. I do not want this.”

    Joe is entitled to support the deputy minister’s hopes for full annexation of all Judea and Samaria. He should, however, understand all the implications involved.

    • Thanks, Daniel, for that tour d’horizon of the Israeli right wing. Just to point out, the way my name appears depends which device I’m working on at the time.
      I’m not sure Ms Hotovelli is in favour of total annexation, as this, by her own acknowledgement, will lead to Israel becoming an apartheid state. I, for one, hope that doesn’t happen.
      And for all those who believe that the numbers are davka working in Israel’s favour west of the Jordan, I suggest they make a sort-of Pascal’s Wager in the hoe they are right.

      • Daniel Marks

        Hi Joe,

        No, her contention is that NOT annexing all Judea and Samaria could be construed as Apartheid. The Palestinians in areas A and B (or A, B and C) would not have the right to choose their own leadership. One could answer that they choose the PA, but it could be argued that they do not have full sovereignty and anyway, keep “delaying” their elections.

        Therefore, Hotebeli supports the full annexation of all of Judea and Samaria with its populations. For that reason you might want to check her views out more fully before you throw in your lot with the lady:

        Incidentally, I’m not saying she’s wrong or that her plan would be terrible. I just think that Benet’s plan or even my lack of plan may be safer.

      • Daniel, I’m not throwing in my lot with her. I was merely pointing out that it appears that even the right wing of the Likud is beginning to realise that the status quo will lead to apartheid.
        I don’t believe in her prescription of annexation or Brother Bennett’s solution of semi-annexation and the co-existence of the cemetery.
        There are only two alternatives: one state between the river and the sea, which would make the Balkans look like a teddy bears’ picnic, or a two state solution.
        I go with the latter, not because I want to do the Palestinians any favours, but because I want Israel to not only survive but thrive.

      • Fortunately, Millis opinions on Israel does not influence its thriving, even less its survival. Very, very fortunately!

      • Good let’s make an Israel Jewish state with minor changes on 49 lines, agree on it and start building a second Jewish state in Judea Samaria. This way, no apartheid state in Israel and we’ll see if the Pals will accept Jews in the second Jewish state. They are against Apartheid, aren’t they?

        And remember Millis? “West Bank” is a Jordanian invention that held for 19 years, no more.

      • Millis name on this blog mostly depends on his fantasy. Remember how many of his aliases disappeared when stricter rules were applied to trolls?

      • read the Arutz Sheva interview and stop slandering by misinterpreting

      • Daniel Marks

        You are quite entitled to that opinion, which is shared by a vocal, but ever shrinking, minority of Israeli voters.

        I think that in today’s multi-dimensional world you may have a difficult time in convincing Israelis that there are only two alternatives; one being all good and the other all bad – but, you’re free to try.

      • Support for two state solution is diminishing, Daniel?
        Lets do the maths and consider the evidence.
        Of the Zionist parties, only Habayit Hayehudi is absolutely against it. That’s 12 mks. Meretz (6), labour (15), Livni’s (6), Yesh Atid (19), kadimah (2) are all on favour. That’s 48 MKs. Of the Likud-Beiteinu’s 31, there’s a vociferous minority of about 8 who are against it. So that’s 23 in favour.
        We get to 61. That’s a majority in the Knesset from just the Zionist parties. And it’s more than it has been for a decade.
        Now lets turn to the non or anti zionists. Of the non-Jewish parties, only Balad are against the TSS because they are one staters.
        Shas and UTJ have and can swing either way – they have their own projects that they care more about than the peace process.
        And poll after poll after poll have consistantly shown that between 60 and 70 per cent of Jewish Israelis are in favour of the TSS. A slightly smaller number view the settlements as an obstacle and a mistake.

      • I think I’m more in tune with Israeli thinking than the one stater Jews who post here. And if anything, their number is declining, especially among those outside israel since their Kahanist policies never got a show in in the last elections.

      • Why did Brother Bennett and Lieberman not object to Livni’s leading the talks? I think the latter reclused himself from dealings with the Palestinians because he is a West Bank settler – Nokdim, I think. The former doesn’t want any deal on the occupied territories so he’ll try and destroy any deal from within.
        As any actual conclusion of any negotiations, isn’t lex parsimoniae (Occam’s Razor), the best route to take?

      • “West Bank”: Millis is still using the expression of Jordan occupier. When will he learn?

      • Yes Joe,

        The Labor Party didn’t mention the “Two State Solution” because everyone already knew they supported it, Lieberman didn’t want any Yisrael Beteinu prescience at the negotiations because he lives in Nokdim and Lapid will bring down the government over the peace process! Either you’re incredibly naïve or you have an excellent sense of humor.

      • If I was the pedant Marks: “Lieberman didn’t want any Yisrael Beteinu prescience (sic) at the negotiations”. LOL!

      • There already is a Two-State Solution.

        Israel and Jordan (which exists on the East bank of the Jordan River)

        Some parties must be agitating for a 3/4/5 state solution.

        The Civil War in Syria demonstrates that a democratic / secular / peaceful Arab state is a an impossibility.

      • At present, there is even a three-state status quo (not “solution”, though): israel, Jordan and Gaza. Judea Samaria would become a fourth one, but that wouldn’t be a “solution” either.

    • Pedant marks, if something needs intelligence and patience, you might as well keep out. LOL!
      Of course, Hotoveli is part of the religious right of Likud and I don’t care much of her opinions (although pedant Marks should). I had immediately understood what she meant knowing much better the Israeli politics than Marks’ buddy-in-arms-and-ignorance Millis.
      Pedant Marks’ explanation of the context is evidently correct, though. Something so rare! Maybe it will rain this summer, after all!

    • Nice one Daniel, thanks for setting the record straight. I was going to reply to Joe that what he said just proves the old Goebbles adage, if you repeat a lie often enough, it becomes accepted as truth.

      • Goebbels now? Proving goebbels’s adage? Wow, the שנאת חינם just drips from your very pores.
        Godwin’s Law, dear boy. Godwin’s Law.
        Just play the clip in the link. She says apartheid and she means continuing with the status quo. She’s never denied it or claimed it was taken out of context – the first resort of the politician.
        Now go wash your mouth out

      • Godwin’s Law, dear boy. Godwin’s Law.

        accusation by the proliferator of the use of “Nazi”

        thanks Jose, you made my day

      • The Marks stooge is now refurbishing the proven strawman of the pedant-in-chief.
        Remember that calling Hamas and Hezbollah Nazis is not proliferation and making negationism about it justifies EU rejection of Israel’s requests to blacklist Hezbollah.
        Thanks from Nasrallah!

      • And don’t confuse Millis with me. I consider it a major offense. LOL!

      • By the way, which practising and traditional Jew posts on Shabbat?

      • Tony Jacobs

        Me.

      • Daniel Marks

        Being an atheist is no excuse for ignorance. Any self-respecting Jewish non-believer should at least know a smattering about what he does not believe.

        In her official shiksa status she is not only not obliged to keep the Sabbath day holy, but she’s forbidden to do so.

        I, on the other hand, was forced to wait until almost 10:30pm and, worse still, fast until the same hour last night.

      • Being religious is an excuse for being an idiot, but it is still an excuse. Maybe you could answer to Millis instead of Tony and confuse Millis with me. Which, as as told your stooge is still a major offense.

      • Again, I’m no prophet, but my guess is that if Lapid succeeds in the Finance Ministry, he’ll not bring down the government over anything, but if the economy looks like slowing down, he’ll seek any reason to leave.

        However, the issue of Haredim serving in the IDF will always be much sexier and will always bring more votes.

        Bibi is no fool and he won’t easily give Lapid an excuse to leave in such an event and he knows that it hardly matters who he sends to negotiate, nothing they can offer Abu Mazen will ever be enough, because he’s petrified of being given a Palestinian state. He knows how long he’d last and doesn’t want to end up in a cage like Mubarak or lynched in the street like Kaddafi. If I were Bibi, I’d send Tony Greenstein to do my negotiating, at least it would be comical.

        Why do you think Benet or Lieberman didn’t demand to be involved in the talks and why they didn’t object to Livni being in charge?

    • in Arutz Sheva Hotovely isn’t quoted as saying “apartheid”
      http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/169233#.UcrN_eBFSzt

      as to her use of apartheid Google is offering her as having used the word in connection with women’s lib.

      As to your stand on the matter (4th) I somehow think this essay strongly confirms the wisdom of it, because however this triangle will play out it will influence everybody (India built road for Afghan exports to Iranian harbour on the Persian Gulf / China bought herself a fortune in the country).

      Until stumbling on this essay I knew William Dalrymple only as an uncritical admirer of everything Muslim and equally uncritical basher of Israel but he seems to be capable of writing (and thinking and investigating) like a serious historian also. Israel isn’t mentioned in the piece at all except indirectly as to something about the Mumbai massacre.

      As to world politics and why it might be wise for anybody else to just hold one’s breath, contain the minor bad guys as much as possible and prepare it’s the best I’ve read in ages.

      http://www.brookings.edu/research/Essays/2013/deadly-triangle-afghanistan-pakistan-india-b

      • after having read that William Dalrymple piece I felt confirmed in my suspicion that this constantly getting focussed on Israel as the pivot of world peace resembles the conjurer’s trick that draws the eye to something interesting while the real action is elsewhere.

    • Hi Joe,

      You may be right, but my numbers are slightly different.

      Regarding the Zionist parties only three arties ran on two-state platforms in the last election; Kadima, Meretz and Hatnua and received about fourteen seats between them,,,,That’s about it. The Labor Party ran solely on domestic issues, assuming that mention of peace plans would lose them even more votes. Lapid hardly mentioned the peace process, I guess he knew why, and who is left?

      Of course, I’m being simplistic. Netanyahu officially supported a “two state solution” though he forgot to mention it in the election campaign and has never brought it to a vote in the Knesset or the Likud, Lieberman supports the idea as long as it never happens and Shas voters are more right wing than any others – except maybe Aguda,

      Again there are some Likud voters who might support the idea out of loyalty to Bibi (similar to the 30% who supported Sharon over Gush Katif and obviously the majority of Yesh Atid and Labor voters support the idea with less enthusiasm than ever.

      Without a doubt all voters of Arab parties would support the “return” of Judea, Samaria, Jaffa and Tel Aviv and support the creation of a Palestinian state as long as they don’t have to live in it.

      I think this means that we have about 25-30% strongly in favor, about 40-55% strongly against and about 30-40% who want a quiet and happy life and who’ll support whatever they think will give them that. Sadly for the Left most Israelis are feeling quite happy at the moment and aren’t in the mood for gambling.

      Incidentally, since the 70s the right or center right have won every election except for twice when Rabin and Barak posed themselves as champions of Israeli security and promised. In both cases the press was able to persuade part of that 30-40% that Israel was nearing anarchy and things couldn’t get worse. Today people are a little more skeptical of simple solutions to complicated questions and the press is less one-dimensional.

      By the way, I think I might owe you an apology, After reading your verbal exchanges with “Jose” I labeled you both idiots. I may have judged you too quickly. Who more than I knows how difficult it is to stay clean when you’re arguing with a sewer rat?

    • Daniel Marks

      Hey Ruth,

      Apparently we are the same person. Personally, I’m quite flattered. I suspect that for you, becoming a 52-year-old grandfather so early in your life, might be a little disconcerting.

  36. Tony,

    Look at the above comments and tell me that you read “nothing but common sense”, He’s totally barmy.

    Regarding truth, if he said, “Good morning” I’d put on my pajamas and go to bed. He claims that half the blog are my aliases, makes up stories about my condemning Schindler and hating atheists and that’s all on one page. I may not agree with much that Joe says, but he’s polite, intelligible and as far as I can tell he doesn’t lie like a rug.

    • Tony Jacobs

      I stand by what I said, up until I said it. Jose seems to have got a bit over excited since then and I sometimes struggle to understand exactly what he means.
      We all have our baggage and I dislike Joe for what he’s posted elsewhere, rather than what I believe is his extremely illogical and fantastically naive politics. I don’t want to get caught up in lashon harah.

      • I’m not excited at all, I’m just sometimes typing on a small smartphone and in conditions that are not very easy. Not good enough for pedant-in-chief.

      • Whatever the reasons, I still struggle to understand you and plenty of others. I understand and accept what you say about small keyboards AND add that it is always difficult to convey tone and nuance in writing. I was recently banned from a site for being too liberal left. It was only after re-reading some much earlier comments that I realised that the moderator had taken several of my ironic and sarcasm laden comments at face value.

      • Well, using a small keyboard, big fingers and not using my glasses can make the exercise difficult. But it seems I understand English better than pedantic Marks as he is unable to grasp the implication of using a narrow definition for “Nazis”. Condidering that he teaches that language is somewhat frightening.

      • He’s not barmy.

        He just has a very small smartphone which writes multiple nonsensical comments by itself.

      • Israelis hate pedantic English professor in early retirement because of ‘overworking’. That’s euphemism. LOL!
        Try sending messages while driving, once.

      • Hozeh, you’ve just admitted to breaking the law. Now to which of your various aliases should I send PC Plod of the Met?

      • Idiotic Millis, I didn’t say what I was driving! Again your tendency to jump to conclusions.

      • Doesn’t matter what you’re driving, Hozeh, Plod will still want to feel your collar. As you were…

      • I guess UK Jewry can now see that it narrowly escaped a disaster. I’m happy to have contributed to avoiding it.

      • I wonder if Shimon knows you’re such an embarrassment

      • If Shimon knows you, anyone elsewould not be a cause for embarrassment. LOL!

      • Tony Jacobs

        Too cryptic for me.

      • I guess Millis’ jokes being that of a paranoid, he believes you use another alias “Shimon”. But that is just a guess.

      • He’s not barmy!

        He just have very large fingers, which go completely bananas while he’s driving. They, not he, fantasize about Aristotelian whores and English professors in early retirement.

        To those fat fingers everyone is a Nazi, but even those fingers are not to blame. It’s the keyboard. The keyboard thinks I’m a lady called Ruth – especially while driving.

        He’s not barmy. Really he’s not, he just has a teeny weeny…..keyboard….. and freakishly fat fingers.

      • Pedant Marks irrational hate appears now in clear and full. After calling Schindler a Nazi, refusing to call Hamas and Hezbolla “Nazis” and seeing his ‘polite’ buddy Millis calling ME a “Nazi”, he sees ME as calling EVERYONE a “Nazi”.
        His retirement must be one of a padded cell and straight jacket.

      • Tony Jacobs

        Sarcasm doesn’t become you.

      • Sarcasm and libel as well. Pedant, lying and unable to admit his errors. God, he must be well appreciated by Israelis!

      • or maybe he’s had his fingernails done in one of those fancyshops
        clerks who have them claim they can type with them just as fast –
        so maybe they are the things that control keyboard and operator alike

        http://www.platinnetz.de/uploads/pics/13563_big.jpg

      • Proof that religion is a kind of an illness just given by Marks’ stooge #1.

      • Can’t have his nails done, because they get ruined when he drags his knuckles along the pavement.

      • Millis now on the side of the religious pedant ‘settler’! LOL!

      • I’m sure a good nail studio could do wonders to it

      • Fortunately, pedant Marks didn’t laugh at his own ‘joke’!

      • LOL Silke. That’s how it’s done.

      • Hozeh,
        يخرب بيتك
        Or in Hebrew
        ייחרב ביתך

    • Please pedant Marks, supporting a definition of “Nazi” being ONLY for members of NSDAP is calling Schindler a Nazi. Whether you like it or not, people who say “all women are whores” are calling any specific woman a “whore”. Understood? So your total ignorance of Aristotelian logic makes you a pedant ignoramus as well.
      Someone who can pretend Millis is polite and intelligible deserves a straight jacket or a red nose.

      • Tony Jacobs

        :-)

      • Hozeh, all this Nazi this and Nazi that must be because you are behaving like one.

      • So you’re vindicating the dictionary definition number three, Millis? The one that trivializes the Holocaust.

      • Joe M,
        The ones acting like nazis?

        Google Images “arab nazi salute”

      • We can see how Millis, who qualifies for pedant Marks as “polite” and articulate, really is. At the same time, we can see how factual pedant Marks and his stooges can be.

    • “I’m not excited at all, I’m just sometimes typing on a small smartphone and in conditions that are not very easy…….using a small keyboard, big fingers and not using my glasses…..”

      Those fabulously fat fingers seem to be out of control again; verily they must have a mind of their own:

  37. As a child I was taught not to laugh at my own jokes. It was one of those no-nos like speaking with your mouth full or whispering in public. The obvious advantage is that if your joke is not well received, you just carry on and nobody knows you were attempting to amuse. If, on the other hand, people laugh, you look at them with a slightly confused expression and they must ponder whether you were meaning to be funny or not. In the first few lessons it’s not unknown for a student to tell me after the lesson that he’s never sure if I’m joking or not. They usually get the hang of it eventually.

    Others have other techniques. I’ve always felt sorry for those who laugh or wink, and one of my Argentinean brothers-in-law sometimes not only laughs after a joke, but nudges one as he winks. His elbows are quite sharp and sometimes I fake a chuckle just to avoid the pain.

    However, I’ve always felt some pity for the wretches that spend their lives looking for ways to let others know that they’re making a joke. They were the nerdy kids who would follow their words with, “Only joking!” or “But seriously..” knowing that without this their witticism has little chance of being noticed.

    On the net some of these failed comedians has been known to use the LOL, not after other people’s comments, but their own. “I said it and even I laughed out aloud, so it must be funny. Please laugh too.”

    Once again I do not blame the unfortunate commentator in question, but his immensely plum pinkies and that minuscule keyboard, But for them.all might be different.

    • Poor pedant Marks who doesn’t even understand that “LOL” does not necessarily means laughing at one’s own jokes but also laughing at the stupidity of the poster to whom you reply.
      Probably because pedant Marks’ humour is severely flawed.

  38. Hamas and the PLO derive their legitimacy by killing Israeli secretaries and high schoolers.

    Virtually all of the Palestinians killed during these past 12 years were suicide bombers, terrorists killed in gun battles, dissidents lynched by fellow Arabs for their beliefs, women and children used as human shields or foils by their “brave fighters” – and yes, dozens of people who were caught in the line of fire. Few recall that when Israel began using aircraft to destroy terrorist facilities (following the massacre of Jewish shoppers at a Netanya mall) the Jews actually publicized the targets in advance, in order to minimize Arab civilian casualties.

    Every morning, at least one Palestinian wakes up with a smile and the thought, “I’m going to murder some Jews today.” They strap on explosive belts and guns, and search out any soft target they can find – a city bus, a baby, a student, a jogger. Israelis do not wake up in the morning and set out to murder Arabs. In rare instances when a Jew actually injures or kills a Palestinian, he is arrested and prosecuted. Contrast this with the Arab hero who shoots a Jewish baby. This “martyr of the Terrorstinians” will be eulogized by Hamas and Fatah, his family made rich and his picture proudly displayed throughout the Arab world.

    The Palestinians have raised an entire generation to believe that the highest aspiration in life is to kill Jews. The Palestinians are engaged in an unremitting campaign of targetted murder of women and children. When the Palestinians massacre Israeli school children on buses, and babies in baby carriages, they celebrate. They have raised an entire generation to believe that the the highest cultural and religious value is the massacre of Jews. Through the Arabs hate, an entire generation has lost the capacity for humanity.

  39. He, again that obsession with someone who hasn’t even the same name? LOL! Another instance of MIllis/Armchair/Armbach trolling this blog?

  40. Tony Jacobs

    Ruth, Jose has spoken nothing but common sense and truth as far as I can tell. I suppose the view from pseudo-socialist, crypto-fascist land is different

  41. Be careful, Tony! Soon, some paranoid troll will assert that you are me! ;)

    Now seriously: has anyone bothered to look up the possible meanings of the word “Nazi” in a dictionary, apart from “a member of NSDAP”? Or do they already know the answer and so that it is perfectly acceptable to call Hamas and Hezbollah “Nazis”? I guess some are so much in denial that they cannot accept that anything else than the original meaning of the term, to delude themselves that the Holocaust will not happen again, since Nazis disappeared.
    By the way, according to that original meaning, Oskar Schindler was a Nazi. And Nasrallah and Meshaal are not…

  42. “Ruth” appears only with Marks, professes same opinions as Marks and Melchett Mike thinks they are the same person. Marks already tried the Millis trick before so that wouldn’t be curious. Last time, he took some Arabic pseudo.

  43. my diagnosis severe case of paranoia struggling hard to obtain the Höhepunkt (explanation to save dictionary consulting time to all: German for high point, used for orgasm and a any number of other peaks except those of mountains.)

  44. I hope you are a better clerk than doctor. Their is no future for you in that profession. Remember: it’s Melchett Mike we’re talking about, not me.
    Did you get the meaning for “Nazi” that applies to Hamas and Hezbollah? How long will you take to get it?